Where do each of the builds stand after the balance patch? What weapons will be used?

[Lily.1935]

I'd like to give you some of my perspective on the upcoming balance patch and talk about the builds it influences and how the other builds that aren't affected so much will fair after this. This is going to be discussing all intended PvE builds and not just what you might expect. So lets get into it, breaking it down by Elite specialization.

Core Necromancer

With the upcoming changes to the core weapons I want to start by talking about core necromancer. Currently they can get up to roughly 20k DPS maybe 23-24k as a full DPS which puts them far below reaper and power harbinger. And for a very selfish spec that's pretty poor. I bring this up because I do believe that free to play players should be able to complete fractals using the all core classes and at least be able to have a decent chance of beating challenge mode. Core necromancer's DPS is still a bit too low to really achieve this although it is still possible. The advantages core has is it does have some very good utility options for fractals and it is quite bulky with the added bonus of flexibility with specializations. But unfortunately core just wont have the push it needs to be able to be a viable option in this content. As for Dungeons I think core is perfectly reasonable and the staff changes actually really strengthen core by quite a bit for the new player.

Overall, core isn't quite where it needs to be just yet. Its major issue being core necromancer shroud. If that could get an update than I do believe core could become a viable option as either power or condi with hybrid healing support in the future. This is a bit of an optimistic take and I don't believe core necromancer will ever be a better choice in raids and strike than any of the elite specs but it also doesn't need to be.

 

Reaper

• Power Reaper: Power Reaper sees a very slight bump this balance patch and the buffs to staff might actually make that the preferred weapon over axe. Currently Reaper is sitting in the very low 30ks for its benchmark on a golem as a selfish DPS. With staff and the minor buffs to reaper's shroud and greatsword we could see them get a bit closer to mid 30kss but still on the lower side of this. I would be extremely surprised if they break 35k and I honestly don't think they will. Reaper needs to be closer to 38k as a selfish DPS especially considering its locked to melee and its very tanky for a melee DPS. But its not going to get there. Power reaper is one of the specs new players and especially new necromancer's gravitate towards when they first start the game. And I just see the reaper rotation being a bit too unintuitive for many new players on top of its timing restrictions all DPS necromancer's have you will likely find new players noticeably under preforming with what is supposed to be an easy to use spec. Unfortunately power reaper will likely remain the worst selfish DPS for raids and strike missions.
• Condi Reaper: Condition damage on reaper is still a bit finicky to use. With this upcoming change it does get a bit better with the buff to offhand dagger which is quite nice. The buff to staff might make it an interesting option for condi reaper as a variant for the build but I'm still not sure on that. I'll be testing both staff and greatsword as the second set in the future because the extra Damage and cooldown reduction is pretty major. It also means reaper gains more opportunities to transfer bleed from blood is power but I have to really test to see if that's worth it over the blind field from night fall and the chill procs from grasping darkness. I wonder about a potential grieving reaper set up might be good so I'll be sure to test that out as well. I think the bump to Condi reaper makes it a viable option for sure and I'll be testing some new ideas with this set up.
• Hand Kiter/Tank: Ironically one of the builds you would expect reaper to be good at they really aren't. They just don't quite have the sustain to be able to run this sort of build which is odd. Although this is a rarely needed build we do see Hand kiters in things like Deimos. A reaper potentially has all the tools they need in order to do this with staff and greatsword or even dagger+warhorn and staff after the balance patch. I think its worth testing using blighter's boon since we could have 3 fear sources for dread. But would you drop reaper's onslaught? And would they have enough personal quickness without it? This is very tough to say. This is for sure a build I'll keep my eye on for the patch but again the buffs don't address these potential builds that are unused.

Reaper will still under preform in the major roles it should be filling, baring maybe condi reaper. Which is unfortunate to say the least. Lets hope Anet takes the feedback and bumps them up a bit more.

 

Scourge

• Condi Scourge: Currently its one of the best builds for PvE with its minor support and decent damage. Condi scourge wasn't touched in this patch but I'll still bring it up. No changes are being given to them but I do think one major change should have come. Sadistic searing does need to be the preferred option for condi scourge over desert empowerment. But scourge's utility is a bit too tight and the other options outside of punishment skills are so good we don't consider them except for trail of anguish when we're desperate for stability and move quite a bit. I realize this patch isn't touching utility skills however I'm still going to look it up.
• Heal/Support Scourge: Unfortunately arena net haven't taken a look at the other support options. Heal scourge, which should probably be hybrid DPS and heal with supporting allies through defensive boons just doesn't have the utility or stats needed to get them significant use. Part of this is there isn't a good stat combination for them but also because they don't provide good boon support. I've tested this build extensively in the past and its a lot of fun to run, but its just not good enough. Arena net really should look on the support side of scourge through their Punishment skills and through some of the core specs like Death magic and diversifying the options in blood magic.

Scourge after the patch has one widely accepted build in endgame content and after the balance patch this stays the same. Hopefully scourge can get some diversification in the near future since although it is the most widely used necromancer spec across all of PvE its build options are limited to basically one build with a single flex slot for a skill.

 

Harbinger

• Condi Harbinger: A rather difficult build to actually run since you're timing a lot of things in unison and it can be extremely tight to exicute Condi harbinger is a rewarding build to run. With the changes it gains less down time when using skills with its preferred off hand the dagger so that's nice. We also see a bump in damage which is also nice. I don't think we'll see more use for this spec though. Although it has fantastic damage its extremely frail. But that's not a bad thing. I do think its about perfect where it is now and really wouldn't change it out for anything. My only major gripe with the spec is its distinct lack of flexibility when it comes to utility.
• Condi/Quickness Harbinger: Where harbinger struggles is the utility it brings as a quickness spec. You have no flexibility when it comes to your chosen elixirs and their might stacks just aren't high enough on top of them only really providing fury and quickness. They also have solid swiftness and regen uptime but thats pitons in comparison to every other quickness support in the game aside from scrapper. But evens scrapper has some extra utility with a group revive or group stealth. It would be nice to see some more boon support on its elixirs since its so reliant on building up blight and harbinger doesn't have a trait that makes other utility generate blight or passively generates it over time so it becomes one of the least flexible quickness with the lowest utility in the game and its a real shame that its like this. I think some buffs to elixirs to provide more diverse boons and to death magic or blood magic to diversify their group utility to help this one out because as they are now they're just good DPS with quickness and all the same flaws as condi harbinger.
• Power Harbinger: Ironically ignored by the devs in this patch and kinda believe everyone forgot this was supposed to be a thing. Still we do have stuff to talk about here. Power harbinger has gotten a few bumps with dagger and staff. However, it likely wont matter much. The unique thing about power harbinger though is it doesn't have as big of an issue with using blight as condi does since they just don't want to remove blight because they get no benefit from doing so. So they actually have more flexibility in utility skills than condi does. This is absolutely a build to keep an eye on in the near future. If dagger auto gets a nice bump along with its power traits getting a nice bump we could see this build begin to show up more often. I do think the correct choice when running this build will be dagger+warhorn and staff. Currently it benches lower than reaper and I don't think this'll change.
• Power/Quick Harbinger: Although it lacks DPS to get itself going this build is actually in my opinion more interesting than condi quick harbinger because it has more flexibility in its utility slots. The issues with its low DPS and lack of useful boons still hold it back so it still carriers the same flaws as condi for the most part. But I figured I'd still bring it up.

Harbinger has two builds being used at the moment although it has four potential builds if not more given the right reworks. I do believe harbinger is an elite spec we should keep our eye on for new ways to play in the future. As long as arena net does good for core necromancer I think we'll see the most blossoming diversity from harbinger out of any of the necromancer elite specs provided they get the right buffs and reworks.

Weapons

• Staff: The MVP of the entire patch. This weapon will likely get strong use since all of its 5 skills get a significant buff. 4.5k auto will be bumped to about 9k along with its marks which will just devastate enemies in in all PvE game modes. On top of that Soul marks will make life force much easier to gain for newer players. Overall this will likely be the second best option for power builds.
• Dagger(MH): A nice little bump to dark pact, the range is still way too low to be competitive with other classes access to immobilize. It would be nice to see both dark pact and life siphon bumped up to 900 range for so the power necromancer can still deal damage while closing the gap in something like gorseval.
• Dagger(OF): Nice little bump in recharge and damage. Hybrid reaper might use this with staff but I doublt it'll really put condi reaper on the map. Nothing to complain about though, those problems aren't dagger's fault. Solid little change.
• Focus: Unfortunately focus will remain unused. Even with its massive buff to spinal shivers its damage is not high enough for its baseline and its competing with several other far far superior boon strip options the necromancer has. if power needs the strip so bad they might just opt to take dagger main hand instead of dropping warhorn. At its base the skill needs to be strong enough to be used regularly in a rotation without needing to strip boons for it to be taken. And it just isn't there. As for soul grasp, well soul grasp deals no damage, it an extremely weak option to use even if it had 50 charges. It honestly doesn't matter how many charges are added to this skill its a DPS loss and its 3 second internal cooldown could mean even if it hypothetically had infinite charges the skill wouldn't be used. Like, NO JOKE! this is just an extremely bad skill. It straight up needs a complete redesign.
• Greatsword: The bump to damage is nice and the weapon will continue to be used. But gravedigger needs a bump in DPS since that turns into the rotation for reaper below 50%. Unless the skill is reworked I'd say it needs some love here too. Greatsword wont be unused like other weapons are, but we could do more for reaper than what was done.
• Axe: Wasn't touched. Fix the auto attack animation, or replace it. And with the staff change it might be better to give your ascended and legendary axes to your warrior because you probably wont be using it on reaper anymore.

So where does necromancer stand after the balance patch? Condition scourge remains the most used and dominant build in end game content. I don't think the changes are enough to bring the other builds into major prominence. I will still be testing some builds out like Grieving scepter/dagger+staff condi reaper, power harbinger and power core necromancer but I don't think these builds will get the bump needed. Power reaper will still under preform. Which all of this news is kinda disappointing. But I'm still hopeful, Anet does have a bit longer to take feedback so be sure to give it. This is mine looking at most potential end game builds. I did not look at all potential builds since a Minion master build just isn't on the cards here. Still hope y'all enjoyed the read and Here's looking forward to dusting off my Nevermore staff.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Lily.1935
Forgot the weapons part.

[Nimon.7840]

Power harbinger can use blight consuming skills. Same as condi: shroud 3+4, consumed blight doesn't jest increase condis, but also direct dmg. 😉

 

[Tinker.6924]

I would love to have a core power build whose dps was competitive to the other necro specs, even if it was on the low end of the spectrum.  Right now its not even close.  I really like how its shroud skills work.

[Lily.1935]

2 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Power harbinger can use blight consuming skills. Same as condi: shroud 3+4, consumed blight doesn't jest increase condis, but also direct dmg. 😉

 

Okay, my mistake. It does seem to help it out a little bit. Will test this more later.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Lily.1935
Mistaken

[Radina.6057]

Aslong as they dont start giving Necros actual damage weapons the same deep massages as the Staff, Power Harbinger will stay a stillbirth with no hope. 

 

Reaper wont get pulled out of the hole by buffing utility skill damage either. It doesnt help at all that Reapers current 30k Bench is terribly inflated by animation canceling and perfect shroud uptime. In Raids there simply is no way you can pull off a perfect rotation, since the unavoidable arena tick, and the current "let the mech overheal most mechanics" meta will make sure of that.

 

The only heavy touching Necro received was on utility skills/weapons. They didnt touch the utility part of it, but just decided that the problem is that those skills dont do enough damage. 

In the last patch they buffed PChrono and Warrior. Thats like they would have taken a look at Chrono and decided the right choice would be to ramp up the Well damage, or add more damage to the Banner impact instead of adjusting the utility part. 

 

The whole Necro section in the upcoming Patch is just silly.

[Dadnir.5038]

52 minutes ago, Radina.6057 said:

The whole Necro section in the upcoming Patch is just silly.

The staff buffs are quite strong, thought. Until they are tried and tested we should refrain from being overly pessimistic.

I'll agree that Reaper's specific buffs aren't significant in PvE end game, but the core weapons changes and especially the base CD reductions may bring substancial changes in the way the necromancer is played in end game throught the introduction of tighter rotations that make use of both weaponsets on top of the shroud.

Keep in mind that there is a very vocal part of the GW2 community that want complex rotations to be more rewarding than simple one and that this part of the community believe that there is nothing easier to play than necromancer. If this patch open new rotations involving the use of more skills within tighter rotations for the necromancer, then we will be able to shut down those prejudices that hurt the necromancer.

So, yeah, you see those changes as "silly" while I see them as an opportunity to improve the image of the necromancer.

[Nimon.7840]

14 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The staff buffs are quite strong, thought. Until they are tried and tested we should refrain from being overly pessimistic.

I'll agree that Reaper's specific buffs aren't significant in PvE end game, but the core weapons changes and especially the base CD reductions may bring substancial changes in the way the necromancer is played in end game throught the introduction of tighter rotations that make use of both weaponsets on top of the shroud.

Keep in mind that there is a very vocal part of the GW2 community that want complex rotations to be more rewarding than simple one and that this part of the community believe that there is nothing easier to play than necromancer. If this patch open new rotations involving the use of more skills within tighter rotations for the necromancer, then we will be able to shut down those prejudices that hurt the necromancer.

So, yeah, you see those changes as "silly" while I see them as an opportunity to improve the image of the necromancer.

 

Anyone that believes, that Necro is easy to play is a little bit delusional.

If Necro would be easy to play, there wouldn't be huge gaps in dps amongst necros.

For example: I play north-pylon kite scourge at quadim the peerless, and north usually takes the most damage, because we tank in that direction and I even take over the second pylon, after mine gets destroyed. I do 15-16k dps (I only switch out bursting for blood sigill and take healing well) another of our scourges that kites plays parasitic contagion > loosing 3k DPS by doing so, but still only does around 8-9k DPS.

And the last one is at around 12-13k dps (without parasitic). If Necro was that easy to play, shouldn't we all be in the same DPS range?

 

And my scourge is by far not perfect.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Nimon.7840

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, Nimon.7840 said:

 

Anyone that believes, that Necro is easy to play is a little bit delusional.

If Necro would be easy to play, there wouldn't be huge gaps in dps amongst necros.

For example: I play north-pylon kite scourge at quadim the peerless, and north usually takes the most damage, because we tank in that direction and I even take over the second pylon, after mine gets destroyed. I do 15-16k dps (I only switch out bursting for blood sigill and take healing well) another of our scourges that kites plays parasitic contagion > loosing 3k DPS by doing so, but still only does around 8-9k DPS.

And the last one is at around 12-13k dps (without parasitic). If Necro was that easy to play, shouldn't we all be in the same DPS range?

 

And my scourge is by far not perfect.

Well, anyone that think elementalist is more difficult to play than necromancer is also delusional.

The thing is that most people have a superficial understanding of the various professions and base their opinion on what is shown to them. Thus, when they see an optimal rotation that ask you to use specific skills in a specific order and compare it to a rotation that basically tell you to use skill on CD while mainly auto attacking, they will label the first as "difficult" and the 2nd as "simple". Unfortunately, the necromancer's rotation fall into the perceived "simple" category.

If you add to this the fact that the necromancer have a "large" health pool, offering the illusion of a beefier character, people won't believe you when you say that they are dellusional for thinking what they think. (Obviously we both know that this large health pool isn't there without drawbacks but for the mass it only mean "free survivability")

[Lily.1935]

6 hours ago, Radina.6057 said:

Aslong as they dont start giving Necros actual damage weapons the same deep massages as the Staff, Power Harbinger will stay a stillbirth with no hope. 

 

Reaper wont get pulled out of the hole by buffing utility skill damage either. It doesnt help at all that Reapers current 30k Bench is terribly inflated by animation canceling and perfect shroud uptime. In Raids there simply is no way you can pull off a perfect rotation, since the unavoidable arena tick, and the current "let the mech overheal most mechanics" meta will make sure of that.

 

The only heavy touching Necro received was on utility skills/weapons. They didnt touch the utility part of it, but just decided that the problem is that those skills dont do enough damage. 

In the last patch they buffed PChrono and Warrior. Thats like they would have taken a look at Chrono and decided the right choice would be to ramp up the Well damage, or add more damage to the Banner impact instead of adjusting the utility part. 

 

The whole Necro section in the upcoming Patch is just silly.

These specific buffs weren't about the utility skills. We may see those touched up in the future. At the moment I think its a mistake for arena net not to look at the weapon kits. Not just weapons but kits, conjure weapons, shrouds, photon forge, those sorts of things as well. Core necromancer shroud does need to be touched up especially considering that Core necromancer can and does play significantly different when compared to its elite specs where as other classes this isn't as drastic. But that's my two cents.

Staff will bridge the gap for new players for sure, but its not enough to be sure. It added into the rotation of reaper might still bump the numbers up but we'll have to wait and see for sure.

[Nimon.7840]

To be fair, this patch, at least on the Necro side, feels like it's only for the leveling experience. Which is fine since you want to make leveling as pleasant as possible (patch goes live on the same day as steam release - I expect quite a lot of players trying the game, if they somehow manage to get some more adds to promote the game and the steam release).

 

The only real thing reaper got was very small buffs to greatsword and shroud. 

All other changes will only be noticeable in the leveling phase. Maybe we will play staff greatsword, reducing the Teamsupport by providing vulnerability even further, because you will have to take soul marks for life force refill (at least on golem). 

But we really have to wait and seey how the patch plays out.