Throw mine explained

[RisenHowl.2419]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Mine

 

The way this works is any engineer can toss a mine out from 900 range. The mine is unblockable while it's in the air and it's unblockable when it explodes. Currently it only explodes when a new target walks over it or the player who used it detonates it, knocking players backwards.

 

With the buffs, it explodes as soon as it's placed provided there is at least 1 target at that location. Instead of knocking players backwards, it'll knock them down. Knocking targets back can push them out of a coordinated bomb, knocking them down forces the players to stay in the bomb and explode.

 

Here's where things get interesting:
-the mine strips 2 boons per target before it applies the knockdown. this means it'll CC them immediately often triggering an interrupt if one of the boons removed is stability.

-absorption sigils have a 3s cooldown per target. any players that are interrupted have 3 more boons stripped.

-every 30s engineers can toss this out to strip between 15-30 boons

-the gadgeteer trait in tools reduces the cooldown to 24s and places a second mine at your feet for free.

-this allows throw mine to strip between 20 and 50 boons every 24s

-the toolbelt skill, mine field, places 5 mines around you in melee. Each one can hit 5 targets, each hit removes 1 boon, each target can only be stripped once. Another 10-25 strips on a 14s cooldown

-the toolbelt skill can be detonated immediately after activating while the mines are still in the air, allowing you to condense the strips from it in a tight radius around the caster

-alacrity (which is now easy to access in wvw) brings these cooldowns to 20s and 11s respectively

-total potential per minute strips for this skill while traited, with alacrity is 3(20-50)+5(10-25)=110-275. for each engineer.

-that makes it one of the best in slot utilities for every party in wvw

-it's available on a class that's already mandatory for wvw (scrapper) which can be ran as either a top notch dps or healer. Scrappers are mandatory because they bring easy access to stealth and superspeed.

-almost every group in wvw runs a scrapper in each party. all they need to do is press 1 button, throw mine, at the start of a fight. With 10 scrappers in a full squad that's 100-250 boons stripped in one go in addition to the strips from necro, spb, mesmer, and revenant. If they push you in melee afterwards without popping the mines, that's another 100-250.

-add in brutality on revenants and the nerf to mantra of liberation. Good luck fighting when you can't use any skills.

 

How this affects the meta:
-melee engages are going to go extinct. gadgeteer places a second mine at your feet, so if your group is standing still and you get pushed it will strip+CC any players that try to push into you. If your group is kiting backwards, the enemy group now has to run through 2 fields of mines to get to you. Even if they do get to you, your scrappers still have mine field on an 11s cooldown. 10 scrappers in a squad means anyone pushing you in melee will eat up to 250 strips.

-this doesn't favor small groups with coordinated bombs, this strongly favors whichever group runs more throw mine. the more players you have using it, the better the effect gets.

-this pushes the meta out of melee entirely and forces groups to run 900-1200 range spike damage from hammer revs, staff eles, dps guardians, and scourges. The only effect of this buff with the mantra of liberation nerf is to force a pirate ship meta.

-the mines are invisible when placed. the only counterplay to them is to clear the mines with a body. that might be a rev using hammer 3, it might be minions, or it might be a player on a mount running over the mines. These are all bad options when you can't see the mines in the first place and all options become less viable the longer a fight drags on. At a bare minimum this skill shouldn't be unblockable.

 

I'm not sure which dev thought this would be wise or which players misled them into thinking it's a good change, but the reasons behind this change should be examined. No one wants to play a pvp game mode where they can't even use their skills. For all the other players out there, i hope this helps you to enjoy using this setup for a month before they realize how asinine it is, the more people abusing it the faster it goes away.

Edited August 17, 2022 by RisenHowl.2419

[Zikory.6871]

Quote

 Now causes knockdown instead of knockback, with a duration of 2 seconds in PvE and 1 second in PvP and WvW. (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 2 to 3. Boons removed from targets increased from 1 to 3.

I read this as pve only. Yall think it's going to be 3 boons? Bet it stays 2 boons in wvw. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I read this as pve only. Yall think it's going to be 3 boons? Bet it stays 2 boons in wvw. 

Reduce that portion of the analysis by 1/3rd then. 

[Zikory.6871]

13 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Reduce that portion of the analysis by 1/3rd then. 

Why would you leave that to the reader? You'd think the "Throw mine explained" would be correct...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

unless they changed it, mine field only removes 1 boon regardless of how many hit a person. at least thats how its always worked. the tooltip has been scuffed forever.

i'm wondering why you're complaining about this nonsense skill when revs can press only banish enchantment and get most boons removed.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Zikory.6871]

34 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

unless they changed it, mine field only removes 1 boon regardless of how many hit a person. at least thats how its always worked. the tooltip has been scuffed forever.

Quote

 

Wiki says 2 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Mine 

Competitive content update: February 25, 2020

(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 2.0 to 0.01. Increased boons removed from 1 to 3.

 

June 28, 2022

Reduced number of boons removed from 3 to 2 in WvW only.

 

That's not how it "always" worked... 

 

Quote

i'm wondering why you're complaining about this nonsense skill when revs can press only banish enchantment and get most boons removed.

Banish has been in the game for how long? Why people still complaining about boons? Maybe try Banish AND throw mine. 

[RisenHowl.2419]

2 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I read this as pve only. Yall think it's going to be 3 boons? Bet it stays 2 boons in wvw. 

You're right, the way it's worded suggests it'll stay 2 boons in wvw. Still 5 strips though with absorption and if they're going through with the mantra nerf everyone's just going to run CC+strip setups, 1 strip doesn't make that much of a difference. changing it to a knockdown and allowing it to detonate immediately are the bigger changes because it makes the skill braindead easy to use to best effect. I'll update the OP to reflect 2 strips.

 

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

unless they changed it, mine field only removes 1 boon regardless of how many hit a person. at least thats how its always worked. the tooltip has been scuffed forever.

i'm wondering why you're complaining about this nonsense skill when revs can press only banish enchantment and get most boons removed.

It only removes 1 per target but can hit 25 targets, depending on how random the spread of mines is for that particular use you can reliably hit 10+ targets. On it's own that just ~okay, but with every scrapper in each party doing it that's a lot of free strips to deter a melee push with no real downside and very little counterplay.

 

revs using banish enchantment have to select specific targets in the middle of a moving enemy group for best effect, then hope no one moves out of the line while it's channeling. It also costs them all their energy every time they enter mallyx, engies have to push 2 buttons and can spend all the extra time healing, dpsing, etc. It's low effort and high impact on a class that spends the rest of its time holding down the AA.

 

[Zikory.6871]

56 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

You're right, the way it's worded suggests it'll stay 2 boons in wvw. Still 5 strips though with absorption and if they're going through with the mantra nerf everyone's just going to run CC+strip setups, 1 strip doesn't make that much of a difference. changing it to a knockdown and allowing it to detonate immediately are the bigger changes because it makes the skill braindead easy to use to best effect. I'll update the OP to reflect 2 strips.

Ye, I suspect throw mine will be quite kittenous now. But you aren't the first person I've seen assume 3 from the notes. 

[lotus.5672]

You are assuming minstrel scrapper players can do anything besides spam medkit 1

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, lotus.5672 said:

You are assuming minstrel scrapper players can do anything besides spam medkit 1

adding this to my gw2 slander mental vault

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Seems fair.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

adding this to my gw2 slander mental vault

checks out.

[Junkpile.7439]

Stronk boon removal skill is weak skill. Nothing new. Boon removal doesn't do anything in wvw. Never use those anymore. Trying to remove/corrupt boons just kitten you off.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Junkpile.7439

[Tyga.7056]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:33 PM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

 

 

-the mine strips 2 boons per target before it applies the knockdown. this means it'll CC them immediately often triggering an interrupt if one of the boons removed is stability.

This is wrong. The mine only knockbacks people that don't have stability. If stability gets removed, it doesn't knockdown.

It also removes boons in the application order. So if stab is one of the last 3 boons added, it gets removed. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Tyga.7056

[RisenHowl.2419]

32 minutes ago, Tyga.7056 said:

This is wrong. The mine only knockbacks people that don't have stability. If stability gets removed, it doesn't knockdown.

It also removes boons in the application order. So if stab is one of the last 3 boons added, it gets removed. 

The next patch is changing the knockback to a knockdown. If the mine removes stability, they get knocked down. If they're casting something it also triggers an interrupt, which steals another 3 boons.

[Tyga.7056]

25 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

The next patch is changing the knockback to a knockdown. If the mine removes stability, they get knocked down. If they're casting something it also triggers an interrupt, which steals another 3 boons.

When the current version of mines doesn't knock people back when it rips stability, the new version won't knock people down when they rip stability. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Tyga.7056

[Dediggefedde.4961]

I actually ran a power build with mine and tools in a guild raid on Tuesday. Sadly, arcdps gave me troubles on that day, but I heard from others the strip count was competable with our other sources.

 

It is a large dps-loss, though, regardless if you swap out grenades or shredder. Excessive energy (+10% while under vigor) can (over)compensate modified amunition (+2% per condition on target), but taking out firearms drops your critical chance. A few times the measured crit rate was at 65% compared to other engineers running firearms with 85% crit rate. You also lose the free group fury of no scope (4s fury when critting foes within 450  every 8s) and its ferocity (+150 ferocity while under fury). We don't run heralds, so fury uptime is not 100%. If everyone runs mines, we might hire a bomb defuser. ^^

 

I also chose flashbang (explosive entrance stuns foes above 90% HP) instead of big boomer (10% dmg increase on foes with lower HP than you, 300 heal per explosion) and with steamlined kits in combination with elixir gun (glue trail, immobilize for 1s), you have a strong CC increase.

 

A comparison with another power scrapper running with the full damage variant showed something around 20% dps loss, but still comparible to our dragon hunters.

 

 

I would not use it in a healscrapper build, though.

You need all the cleanse you can have, so only switching out bulwark is an option, which is the only group stability and projectile block in most setups not coming from the firebrand.

Also, taking in tools makes you either drop Inventions (MDF: heal, soothing detonation: heal, energy amplifier: healing power, reconstruction enclosure: protection) or alchemy (health insurance: heal, comeback cure: heal, purity of purpose: boon output).

Either case is a large heal and support loss.

[lotus.5672]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:33 AM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Mine

 

The way this works is any engineer can toss a mine out from 900 range. The mine is unblockable while it's in the air and it's unblockable when it explodes. Currently it only explodes when a new target walks over it or the player who used it detonates it, knocking players backwards.

 

With the buffs, it explodes as soon as it's placed provided there is at least 1 target at that location. Instead of knocking players backwards, it'll knock them down. Knocking targets back can push them out of a coordinated bomb, knocking them down forces the players to stay in the bomb and explode.

 

Here's where things get interesting:
-the mine strips 2 boons per target before it applies the knockdown. this means it'll CC them immediately often triggering an interrupt if one of the boons removed is stability.

-absorption sigils have a 3s cooldown per target. any players that are interrupted have 3 more boons stripped.

-every 30s engineers can toss this out to strip between 15-30 boons

-the gadgeteer trait in tools reduces the cooldown to 24s and places a second mine at your feet for free.

-this allows throw mine to strip between 20 and 50 boons every 24s

-the toolbelt skill, mine field, places 5 mines around you in melee. Each one can hit 5 targets, each hit removes 1 boon, each target can only be stripped once. Another 10-25 strips on a 14s cooldown

-the toolbelt skill can be detonated immediately after activating while the mines are still in the air, allowing you to condense the strips from it in a tight radius around the caster

-alacrity (which is now easy to access in wvw) brings these cooldowns to 20s and 11s respectively

-total potential per minute strips for this skill while traited, with alacrity is 3(20-50)+5(10-25)=110-275. for each engineer.

-that makes it one of the best in slot utilities for every party in wvw

-it's available on a class that's already mandatory for wvw (scrapper) which can be ran as either a top notch dps or healer. Scrappers are mandatory because they bring easy access to stealth and superspeed.

-almost every group in wvw runs a scrapper in each party. all they need to do is press 1 button, throw mine, at the start of a fight. With 10 scrappers in a full squad that's 100-250 boons stripped in one go in addition to the strips from necro, spb, mesmer, and revenant. If they push you in melee afterwards without popping the mines, that's another 100-250.

-add in brutality on revenants and the nerf to mantra of liberation. Good luck fighting when you can't use any skills.

 

How this affects the meta:
-melee engages are going to go extinct. gadgeteer places a second mine at your feet, so if your group is standing still and you get pushed it will strip+CC any players that try to push into you. If your group is kiting backwards, the enemy group now has to run through 2 fields of mines to get to you. Even if they do get to you, your scrappers still have mine field on an 11s cooldown. 10 scrappers in a squad means anyone pushing you in melee will eat up to 250 strips.

-this doesn't favor small groups with coordinated bombs, this strongly favors whichever group runs more throw mine. the more players you have using it, the better the effect gets.

-this pushes the meta out of melee entirely and forces groups to run 900-1200 range spike damage from hammer revs, staff eles, dps guardians, and scourges. The only effect of this buff with the mantra of liberation nerf is to force a pirate ship meta.

-the mines are invisible when placed. the only counterplay to them is to clear the mines with a body. that might be a rev using hammer 3, it might be minions, or it might be a player on a mount running over the mines. These are all bad options when you can't see the mines in the first place and all options become less viable the longer a fight drags on. At a bare minimum this skill shouldn't be unblockable.

 

I'm not sure which dev thought this would be wise or which players misled them into thinking it's a good change, but the reasons behind this change should be examined. No one wants to play a pvp game mode where they can't even use their skills. For all the other players out there, i hope this helps you to enjoy using this setup for a month before they realize how asinine it is, the more people abusing it the faster it goes away.

Still waiting for those throw mine scrappers in zergs

[SleepyBat.9034]

I wonder, ignoring the fact that it's made of paper what would happen if they made Net Turret attacks Unblockable and Strip boons? Would that make it a viable skill?

Edited August 26, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034
Clarification

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

18 hours ago, lotus.5672 said:

Still waiting for those throw mine scrappers in zergs

That is the fun part. Discovering something strong and talking about it is great, but the players only use it when the right people talk about it. Preferably a streamer or it is posted on the meta-pages, then it will establish as a standard. 

Have a little patience. Stuff like this takes some time until it reaches the masses. When I first wrote about Throw Mine for Scrapper, it took 1-2 months until it was utilized in sPvP. The reaction was mostly "Oh look, the idiot with his junk again XD". A gadget being useful? Keep dreaming! Until a few players decided to give it a try and dominated their matches. /shrug

Very big thanks for sharing these kind of discoveries. The level of ignorance is very high in GW2, but it is always worth a try. And there are always people taking notes. My personal record for late approval of an idea is 4 years. I doubt this will be the case here.

[RisenHowl.2419]

3 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I wonder, ignoring the fact that it's made of paper what would happen if they made Net Turret attacks Unblockable and Strip boons? Would that make it a viable skill?

it would, anything that's unblockable and strips boons would given the current meta imo

 

2 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

That is the fun part. Discovering something strong and talking about it is great, but the players only use it when the right people talk about it. Preferably a streamer or it is posted on the meta-pages, then it will establish as a standard. 

Have a little patience. Stuff like this takes some time until it reaches the masses. When I first wrote about Throw Mine for Scrapper, it took 1-2 months until it was utilized in sPvP. The reaction was mostly "Oh look, the idiot with his junk again XD". A gadget being useful? Keep dreaming! Until a few players decided to give it a try and dominated their matches. /shrug

Very big thanks for sharing these kind of discoveries. The level of ignorance is very high in GW2, but it is always worth a try. And there are always people taking notes. My personal record for late approval of an idea is 4 years. I doubt this will be the case here.

It'll probably take 1-2 months for people to get comfortable with the setup, builds, gear, w/e yeah. The big issue is that it detonates immediately now and knocks down people caught in a bomb, it was already strong before but that change breaks it. I'm going to laugh when anet nerfs absorption sigils in two months instead and screws over a dozen other setups

[Cyninja.2954]

Throw Mine was meta 2-3 years back in organized groups especially in GvG where the knockback could disrupt the enemy. With the given changes it might be again. It forces a more aggressive play-style versus Bullwark Gyro but I'm not sure border tags will benefit from using TM given the overall less sticky nature and reliance on Defence Field. More organized groups could start using it again to improve the first bomb.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Hotride.2187]

On 8/16/2022 at 4:33 PM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

-absorption sigils have a 3s cooldown per target. any players that are interrupted have 3 more boons stripped.

It doesn't have a CD.

[Svarty.8019]

On 8/17/2022 at 6:33 AM, Junkpile.7439 said:

Stronk boon removal skill is weak skill. Nothing new. Boon removal doesn't do anything in wvw. Never use those anymore. Trying to remove/corrupt boons just kitten you off.

Boon be gone,

Boon be back.

 

It's my first Haiku.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

This power-build is optimized for strips, CC and burst-damage while providing cleanses and stealth.

I ran it a few times in a 15 people guild raid.

Depending on the fight/enemy movement you can still compete for top-dps and sometimes reach chronos in strips.

If your enemies camp in nullfields, symbols and traps, then not. ^^

The cleanse is roughly half of a healscrapper. The build pairs well with an alacrity-tempest.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAIRlNw0YbMP2JOyW2teA-zVIYRUxXINFBZWAdnA2eACo3i+LbA-w

 

EG for acid bomb (high dps), cleanse and stunbreaker.
Grenades for ranged pressure and burst damage (use increased splash radius/speed to hit despite projectile hate).

Alternative shredder-gyro/flamethrower for easier/consistent damage without bursts.

Medkit for cleanse, blast-finisher, swiftness. Alternative med-gyro for increased superspeed uptime.

Tools traitline doubles the mine and adds glue-trail to EG (1s immobilize). Also reduced CD on grenade-barrage.

Energy-sigil is more dps than force/impact due to explosive entrance.

 

Max Strips:

Throw mine: 2 mines, 2 strips each + absoprtion sigil 3

Minefield: 5 mines 1 strip each,

Absoprtion Sigil: 3 for each interrupt.

 

5 Target CC via

Hammer-5 (stun), hammer-3-Combo (2*stun), mine (2* knock down), explosive entrance (stun via flashbang)

Also, there's glue-trail for immob-trail on EG.

The damage is around 30% lower compared to a pure damage build like http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAIRlRw0YQMP2JOyLvteA-zVIYRUxXINFBZWA1mA2eACo3i+LbA-w

The group is also missing the free fury, your crit chance is lowered, and no ferocity buff.
Assassin pieces can increase avg. damage by around 3%, going up to 70% critchance.