These simple changes will put Renegade and Vindicator in a good spot

[Razor.9305]

Hi,

I wanted to make a simple post explaining a few small changes that would amend the current state of Renegade builds as well as Vindicator as a PvE dps build
Suggestions are mainly directed at any relevant people at ArenaNet reading this, but feel free to give any thoughts on what could be better or more reasonable.

The primary concerns for these two classes are the damage output and for Renegade specifically, the required boon duration. While Renegade still has a strong condition build, the power variant as well as Vindicator do not feel as impactful. While Renegade had its spot in the limelight, allowing it to be competitive should be the goal. Vindicator has never felt as strong as it should have and it is exceptionally rare to see one in instanced PvE.
As for boon duration - Renegade needs around 84% at the very minimum to be a solid source of Alacrity, far beyond what any other support build requires.

To address both of these concerns, we can revert two previous changes and improve a well-known trait.

Devastation - Unsuspecting Strikes & Destructive Impulses
On May 11th last year, Destructive Impulses was changed from affecting strike damage to affecting all damage.
On May 25th, Unsuspecting Strikes was reduced from 25% to 20% strike damage to enemies above 80% health.
On June 8th, the bonus damage of Destructive Impulses from wielding an off-hand weapon was reduced from 5% to 2.5%

As the 'Devastation condition' variant saw massive play rate and was not halted until the nerf of Battle Scars, power Revenant builds were collateral damage of these changes. Rather than giving additional strength to Vindicator in order to make it competitive, restoring these two traits to what they were prior to May 11th of 2021, together with the upcoming buffs to Invocation, would benefit all power Revenant builds.

Renegade - Righteous Rebel
This trait has a short history despite its popularity. October 2nd, 2018 it was changed to affect 10 targets with Alacrity and it became meta-defining ever since. Before that change, it was not feasible for one Renegade to provide alacrity to its group due to the short duration of Orders from Above. With End of Dragons it is in the same spot as back before all that.
The trait increases the radius and duration of the skill by 50%, but still requires the player to obtain a full set of either Diviner or Ritualist gear and often with a rune like Leadership on top. This does not feel great to play, and it is difficult for newer players to obtain the necessary gear.

An increase from 50% to 100% would change the minimum required boon duration from 84% to 38%.
Improving the duration increase of the trait would massively improve the requirements for gear as well as damage output of Renegade. Increasing the base duration of Orders from Above would have a similar effect, but would allow two Renegades to provide alacrity without even taking this trait. Therefore it is the trait itself that needs an improvement.

These three changes together would put Renegade back in a competitive spot and give Vindicator a much-needed damage boost, while not surpassing any existing specializations.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Razor.9305
Mistakenly wrote that Unsuspecting Strikes applied to enemies below 80% health.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, Razor.9305 said:

Hi,

I wanted to make a simple post explaining a few small changes that would amend the current state of Renegade builds as well as Vindicator as a PvE dps build
Suggestions are mainly directed at any relevant people at ArenaNet reading this, but feel free to give any thoughts on what could be better or more reasonable.

The primary concerns for these two classes are the damage output and for Renegade specifically, the required boon duration. While Renegade still has a strong condition build, the power variant as well as Vindicator do not feel as impactful. While Renegade had its spot in the limelight, allowing it to be competitive should be the goal. Vindicator has never felt as strong as it should have and it is exceptionally rare to see one in instanced PvE.
As for boon duration - Renegade needs around 84% at the very minimum to be a solid source of Alacrity, far beyond what any other support build requires.

To address both of these concerns, we can revert two previous changes and improve a well-known trait.

Devastation - Unsuspecting Strikes & Destructive Impulses
On May 11th last year, Destructive Impulses was changed from affecting strike damage to affecting all damage.
On May 25th, Unsuspecting Strikes was reduced from 25% to 20% strike damage to enemies below 80% health.
On June 8th, the bonus damage of Destructive Impulses from wielding an off-hand weapon was reduced from 5% to 2.5%

As the 'Devastation condition' variant saw massive play rate and was not halted until the nerf of Battle Scars, power Revenant builds were collateral damage of these changes. Rather than giving additional strength to Vindicator in order to make it competitive, restoring these two traits to what they were prior to May 11th of 2021, together with the upcoming buffs to Invocation, would benefit all power Revenant builds.

Renegade - Righteous Rebel
This trait has a short history despite its popularity. October 2nd, 2018 it was changed to affect 10 targets with Alacrity and it became meta-defining ever since. Before that change, it was not feasible for one Renegade to provide alacrity to its group due to the short duration of Orders from Above. With End of Dragons it is in the same spot as back before all that.
The trait increases the radius and duration of the skill by 50%, but still requires the player to obtain a full set of either Diviner or Ritualist gear and often with a rune like Leadership on top. This does not feel great to play, and it is difficult for newer players to obtain the necessary gear.

An increase from 50% to 100% would change the minimum required boon duration from 84% to 38%.
Improving the duration increase of the trait would massively improve the requirements for gear as well as damage output of Renegade. Increasing the base duration of Orders from Above would have a similar effect, but would allow two Renegades to provide alacrity without even taking this trait. Therefore it is the trait itself that needs an improvement.

These three changes together would put Renegade back in a competitive spot and give Vindicator a much-needed damage boost, while not surpassing any existing specializations.

So you’re on the money about the devastation changes; those never should have happened. 
 

However it’s all moot as core Rev, Herald, and Vindicator power DPS increases are coming next week. So they’re getting the boost you want. Vindicator may still be slightly lackluster based off my calcs, but it should be far better than it is now regardless and renegade will get the core power boosts in Invocation 

[Razor.9305]

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

So you’re on the money about the devastation changes; those never should have happened. 
 

However it’s all moot as core Rev, Herald, and Vindicator power DPS increases are coming next week. So they’re getting the boost you want. Vindicator may still be slightly lackluster based off my calcs, but it should be far better than it is now regardless and renegade will get the core power boosts in Invocation 

All revenant builds benefit from the Invocation buffs, but they do not not amount to much, around 5% for power builds. This is not sufficient to put any power Revenant in a competitive position with other builds at the moment.

As for Herald, I would just revert the buff they are adding in the scenario that these Devastation changes would be a reality. After the Tuesday patch you'll see Herald having higher damage in a group than Vindicator unfortunately.

[Jaykay.9641]

Was going to post something similar after the upcoming patch of what OP is saying. The Devastation changes over time have been hurting Rev as OP mentioned. I'd like to echo some of those sentiments

• Revert Destructive Impluses offhand damage bonus back to 5%. If this is reverted, Herald Reinforced Potency %damage buff to from each boon can be reverted back to 1% (instead of upcoming 1.5%) Herald is poised to be very good after patch.
• Give a selfish stat buff to the cookie cutter changes that happen to traits like Assassin's Presence (maybe like +150 Ferocity to Rev only. Many professions have self stat buff traits) These traits are to bland and need selfish components to them now
• IMO I think it would be feasible to just combine the Unsuspecting Strikes and Swift Termination in to one Grandmaster Trait and create a new adept trait. You can call in Ying and Yang or something lol
• I think we need to see how Vindicator and Renegade shakes out after the Invocation damage buffs. It's interesting how a decent amount of classes don't need to invest so heavily into Diviner/Ritualist gear as much as Rev. Maybe it's to keep their damage in check. But that's why I think we'll have to see how damage is after patch.

Like some of you, I've been slowly getting more frustrated with the design choices that have been made regarding Rev. That's why I'm looking forward to their balance/design manifesto that Grouch mentioned in his last forum post. It can't come soon enough.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Jaykay.9641

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

20 hours ago, Razor.9305 said:

All revenant builds benefit from the Invocation buffs, but they do not not amount to much, around 5% for power builds. This is not sufficient to put any power Revenant in a competitive position with other builds at the moment.

As for Herald, I would just revert the buff they are adding in the scenario that these Devastation changes would be a reality. After the Tuesday patch you'll see Herald having higher damage in a group than Vindicator unfortunately.

Vindi and (full DPS) herald will do about the same on small hitbox after the patch, but Vindi will still have the 2.5-3k advantage on huge hitbox, so will still be the better choice for raw power DPS.

 

these buffs aren’t enough though. I’m not sure reverting the devastation nerfs are necessary when they could just buff swords and Alliance stance (both of which are absolutely needed) 

[ArthurDent.9538]

9 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Vindi and (full DPS) herald will do about the same on small hitbox after the patch, but Vindi will still have the 2.5-3k advantage on huge hitbox, so will still be the better choice for raw power DPS.

 

these buffs aren’t enough though. I’m not sure reverting the devastation nerfs are necessary when they could just buff swords and Alliance stance (both of which are absolutely needed) 

Destructive impluse back to 5% would help one hand swords and not gs so it's certainly a good and obvious change.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

11 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Destructive impluse back to 5% would help one hand swords and not gs so it's certainly a good and obvious change.

That’s true, but Anet rarely reverts changes as we know from the past 10 years, so we’d be better served by asking for buffs elsewhere 

Edited August 22, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054