Vindicator in raids?

[infant.8175]

vindicator as a power dps build outperforms most of the core power dps builds ' does this make core builds have a stronger case to whatever vindicator suffer from ?

[Buran.3796]

5 minutes ago, infant.8175 said:

some would argue its not the vindi that's at fault its the other builds being over tuned etc etc etc ' we need to consider if every single build is as powerful as power rifle mechs we won't have content anymore and it would take the "challenge" aspect of playing gw2

   Overall I don't play instanced content, but if I would do it I would run either a short bow based Renegade or a Firebrand build, not a Mechanist.

   So is not like I wouldn't play Vindicator due the Mechanist has better dps, or because is easier (my current fav OW solo build is condi Willbender, which is key stroking intensive), but because the trade offs it has (single evade, high energy cost) isn't balanced by other quality of life features. 

* No cc. Run Jalis! No, is bad after the nerfs and my Renegade now oftenly fails Forced Engagement since the bow was best used at  max range. Yes, is better for mele builds, but won't reward ANet playing subpar options after making choices which worsened the gameplay experience in builds which still are better than Vindi.

*No cc. Run staff! No, it plummets my dps, I no longer run staff at PvE content, and you probably shouldn't also. 

*No ranged damage. Run hammer! No, I only touch hammer in troll PvP builds, my PvE/WvW has not seen any decent hammer play time in ages. Even without bugs the weapon is still utter trash tier and the damage is also irrelevant: won't touch it until gameplay mechanics are restored and then we could maybe talk about dps. 

    The fun thing is that Anet nerfed legacy specs pre-EoD but most of the new specs still trails behind the older ones because even with the power creep the older were better designed.

[infant.8175]

4 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Overall I don't play instanced content, but if I would do it I would run either a short bow based Renegade or a Firebrand build, not a Mechanist.

   So is not like I wouldn't play Vindicator due the Mechanist has better dps, or because is easier (my current fav OW solo build is condi Willbender, which is key stroking intensive), but because the trade offs it has (single evade, high energy cost) isn't balanced by other quality of life features. 

* No cc. Run Jalis! No, is bad after the nerfs and my Renegade now oftenly fails Forced Engagement since the bow was best used at  max range. Yes, is better for mele builds, but won't reward ANet playing subpar options after making choices which worsened the gameplay experience in builds which still are better than Vindi.

*No cc. Run staff! No, it plummets my dps, I no longer run staff at PvE content, and you probably shouldn't also. 

*No ranged damage. Run hammer! No, I only touch hammer in troll PvP builds, my PvE/WvW has not seen any decent hammer play time in ages. Even without bugs the weapon is still utter trash tier and the damage is also irrelevant: won't touch it until gameplay mechanics are restored and then we could maybe talk about dps. 

    The fun thing is that Anet nerfed legacy specs pre-EoD but most of the new specs still trails behind the older ones because even with the power creep the older were better designed.

that's alot to tangle but lets take it point by point 
1- you mentioned that your favorite build is condi willbender due to personal biases and preferences which is subjective  and irrelevant to facts concerning vindicator .
2- you mentioned that renegade having a nerf and general issues with utility regarding renegades /revnants
that you claim that its still better than vindi in that regard i assume you mean CC where i fail to understand how is jallis or staff 5 not enough for CC checks in the game and for the dps loss for doing cc which is a fair trade in my opinion i think its fine and not game breaking by any means.
3- i fail to see how would a condi renegade outperform in a power favored encounter or how would vindi would do the same in a condi favored encounter .
4- hammer is a bad weapon for revs in pve compared to the alternatives that rev has access too across all 3 specializations but it still has its usages mainly in pvp and wvw
5- vindi has unique mechanics associated with the approach on how you play the build mainly the dodge and survivability aspect of it  IE : vindicator running sigils of energy is not the same as full dps sigils and your choice of legends heavily impacts the play style IE : jallis/ demon = more emphasis on consistent damage+ utlity at a slight loss to dps while shiro/alliance = more emphasis on damage to slight cc loss legends wise 
so in conclusion i fail to see how vindicator fail its designated role as a dps 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, infant.8175 said:

so how is vindi is not finished ? anet released it with the end of dragons expansion and some players play it already' and please don't claim false words and " facts" on my behalf specially if I didn't write or say so .

"Not being finished" is what Vindi haters say when they can't justify other comments about bad design or whatever. Apparently, there is some 'unfinished' scraps of Vindi just laying on a cutting room floor that would make it a good spec ... but don't ask any of these people what those are or where they would go in the design considering there isn't any more bandwidth on the spec to add those scraps.  

The bottomline is that nothing is missing; people just don't like things about the existing Vindicator parts enough to pretend the "missing" parts (i.e., the parts they really want to see on Vindicator that don't exist) would be better. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[phokus.8934]

54 minutes ago, infant.8175 said:

so in conclusion i fail to see how vindicator fail its designated role as a dps 

Rev lacked (still does) a raid worthy power dps spec.  Renegade was taken for utility due to Alacrity and its cc potential in raids and fractals.  When Vindicator was showcased, they showed big damage numbers, a greatsword, and traits that had damage modifiers to increase damage.  When it was released, it fell pretty short of being anywhere close to what was expected.  It could've been most peoples expectations that Vindicator was going to be the power dps spec we all hoped for due to what was initially shown.  Vindicator isn't necessarily bad at power dps but it is lagging behind most power based specs and that's where it fails.

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, infant.8175 said:

1- you mentioned that your favorite build is condi willbender due to personal biases and preferences which is subjective  and irrelevant to facts concerning vindicator .
2- you mentioned that renegade having a nerf and general issues with utility regarding renegades /revnants
that you claim that its still better than vindi in that regard i assume you mean CC where i fail to understand how is jallis or staff 5 not enough for CC checks in the game and for the dps loss for doing cc which is a fair trade in my opinion i think its fine and not game breaking by any means.
3- i fail to see how would a condi renegade outperform in a power favored encounter or how would vindi would do the same in a condi favored encounter .
4- hammer is a bad weapon for revs in pve compared to the alternatives that rev has access too across all 3 specializations but it still has its usages mainly in pvp and wvw
5- vindi has unique mechanics associated with the approach on how you play the build mainly the dodge and survivability aspect of it  IE : vindicator running sigils of energy is not the same as full dps sigils and your choice of legends heavily impacts the play style IE : jallis/ demon = more emphasis on consistent damage+ utlity at a slight loss to dps while shiro/alliance = more emphasis on damage to slight cc loss legends wise 
so in conclusion i fail to see how vindicator fail its designated role as a dps 

  1) cWB is my fav build at the moment but Rev is my main and haven't mained Guardian at all since the HoT release; I think most of WB's skills are poor but you can still get a good build which performs well and the spec has martial artist theme which to me happens to have success in its implementation. I'm not sure about the theme of Vindicator, aside from thieving animations from other classes.

  2) I think that the cc from Jalis and staff is fine, but I'm not longer compelled to use them since I'm too used to the original design of the skills to endure the botched nature that they stacked over time. Is the same with Coalescence of Ruin: once you've tasted the original is hard to swallow the current iteration. I guess Warriors feel the same about things as their hammer, a cc weapon with slow and impactful skills centered on cc which got destroyed when the "cc = 0 damage" patch was implemented. As a result, I tend to not use them (the next iteration for my Renegade build is meant to be played with double short bow). Equally,  when I run Vindicator I use gs + swords and Alliance + Shiro; just I can't endure them any longer.

  3) Vindicator fails as design (the role doesn't matter, Vindicator is fractually wrong at every game mode in every role available) and is reflected as on average in instanced content at which is played by 1 in each 300 (three hundred) players. I can only talk about what things I found wrong about Vindicator, which you don't agree, and as you say, they surely are personal biases. But if no one is using it, you maybe can infere that there's reasons why those people are avoiding the spec.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I guess the irony that you think we need Vindicator to be more popular in raids through more DPS, competing with Revenant's other more raid-specific, already better established power DPS specs is completely lost on you. That's the tunnel vision I'm talking about. Don't care about how anything else is impacted, just as long s Vindicator gets more DPS. The rest of the world can burn, as long as long a Vindicator works how you want.  👍

Kitten, you literally have argued against Herald getting DPS increases OR Quickness for hundreds of posts in the past (something you never wanted yet Anet did anyway omegalul) and now you call it “raid relevant and better established power dps” and defend it as being the better (and only) option over vindicator when it wasn’t EVER either of those things until literally a few months ago. And it’s been around for 7 years. Omegalul 🤡

Edited September 15, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, infant.8175 said:

vindicator as a power dps build outperforms most of the core power dps builds ' does this make core builds have a stronger case to whatever vindicator suffer from ?

Most Core builds will never outperform most Especs due to the way the trade off is designed and the fact that most classes have really poor 3rd core traitline options as well as poor core profession skills. This isn’t really a valid argument for the past 7 years; the reality is especs ARE the way for top DPS or support in PvE and will be that 99% of the time due to the way most elite and core classes are mechanically designed. No one who is paying attention should expect core classes in PvE to compete equally unless they do a massive overhaul of core profession skills. Even then it’s not likely to be a valid pathway as anything done to Core outside of some profession skills directly buffs especs. It’s a balance nightmare so it makes sense for them to only focus on espec balance for PvE  while making more minimal or only necessary changes to core 

Edited September 15, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[infant.8175]

38 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Most Core builds will never outperform most Especs due to the way the trade off is designed and the fact that most classes have really poor 3rd core traitline options as well as poor core profession skills. This isn’t really a valid argument for the past 7 years; the reality is especs ARE the way for top DPS or support in PvE and will be that 99% of the time due to the way most elite and core classes are mechanically designed. No one who is paying attention should expect core classes in PvE to compete equally unless they do a massive overhaul of core profession skills. Even then it’s not likely to be a valid pathway as anything done to Core outside of some profession skills directly buffs especs. It’s a balance nightmare so it makes sense for them to only focus on espec balance for PvE  while making more minimal or only necessary changes to core 

especs are the way they are by design and not by chance and 2/3 of every espec is core ' following that logic all the power creep and imbalances that occurs in the game is directly related to especs if anything core builds are "balanced"
and ironically especs are the main culprit and reason for making gw2 balancing such a "nightmare" 
and besides core builds needing balance was never the main point it was always power creep and how to best mitigate it without rolling back to gw2 vanilla because at this rate next expansions if power creep left unchecked and "new expansion builds" needing to be better and competitive even todays meta builds will be obsolete same as old core builds that used to be meta in vanilla .

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Kitten, you literally have argued against Herald getting DPS increases OR Quickness for hundreds of posts in the past (something you never wanted yet Anet did anyway omegalul) and now you call it “raid relevant and better established power dps” and defend it as being the better (and only) option over vindicator when it wasn’t EVER either of those things until literally a few months ago. And it’s been around for 7 years. Omegalul 🤡

Hold on. None of that past discussion has anything to do with the current discussion about Vindicator being competitive from a raid POV and it doesn't change the fact that Herald is the obviously intended raid-focused pDPS spec for Revenant. And for the record, Herald, even the OLD version, was WAY better raid team mate than Vindicator has EVER been and probably ever WILL be, otherwise this discussion would never have started in the first place. 

Are you disagreeing with the fact that it doesn't make sense to push Vindicator in the exact position Anet wants Herald to be in for team content because THAT is what we are talking about here. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[infant.8175]

6 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

Rev lacked (still does) a raid worthy power dps spec.  Renegade was taken for utility due to Alacrity and its cc potential in raids and fractals.  When Vindicator was showcased, they showed big damage numbers, a greatsword, and traits that had damage modifiers to increase damage.  When it was released, it fell pretty short of being anywhere close to what was expected.  It could've been most peoples expectations that Vindicator was going to be the power dps spec we all hoped for due to what was initially shown.  Vindicator isn't necessarily bad at power dps but it is lagging behind most power based specs and that's where it fails.

well this is what a balanced build looks like and please mention the dps builds that its lagging behind too because if we analyze what ever builds you will mention you will find that vindicator is not to blame most of the time and since we are discussing vindicators in raids specifically its a fact that its competitive with dh/reapers/daredevils/holosmiths/most warrior power builds/heralds and falls behind power virtuso/ power weaver/power mechanist/power soul beast dps wise in power favored encounters so i truly fail to understand what makes vindicator lacking in specific encounters in raids that favors power builds is it a matter of wanting this build to be the best same as rifle mechanist ? or is it an issue with failing to understand that any reckless buff to this build might result in bigger problems down the line. 

PS :only thing making this not the same as mirage in its broken days is the harsh limitations that anet enforced on the build they could have easily made this spec to have 2 dodges instead of 1 or gave lower cds on hard hitting skills or better numbers overall 'vindicator isn't the strongest pdps build out there but it doesn't mean that its weak nor does it mean its not viable for raids . 

Edited September 15, 2022 by infant.8175

[soul.9651]

2 hours ago, infant.8175 said:

well this is what a balanced build looks like and please mention the dps builds that its lagging behind too because if we analyze what ever builds you will mention you will find that vindicator is not to blame most of the time and since we are discussing vindicators in raids specifically its a fact that its competitive with dh/reapers/daredevils/holosmiths/most warrior power builds/heralds and falls behind power virtuso/ power weaver/power mechanist/power soul beast dps wise in power favored encounters so i truly fail to understand what makes vindicator lacking in specific encounters in raids that favors power builds is it a matter of wanting this build to be the best same as rifle mechanist ?

 dh/reapers/daredevils/holosmiths - sure (but those are rare at raids)

 Most warrior power builds- i guess but there will be a difference between most played in raids and most existing power warrior builds, plus they fixed some bugs on it in the latest patch and it got some nice buffs overall so its either close while warrior taking the top in terms of competition or if we look at the bladesworn its not even close if played properly xd..(and if its a warrior at raids most of them will be bladesworns)

heralds-i would say they are wayyy better pick  even on full dps build you will get not just similar or better dps but also some extra boons and boon extension meanwhile vindicator stays greedy(and heralds are finally getting more popular)

 falls behind power virtuso/ power weaver/power soul beast - sure

And power mech just fits in every single encounter doesnt matter if its power or condi favored i would say virtuoso is close to mech in that sence aswell(and here are the main problems when 6+/10 are mechs in your squad or even better at strike cms seeing 8/10 pug mech squads while all of dps are stacking rifle mech +more and more pugs just straight up asking only for virtuosos and pmechs at strike cms  while other picks beeing scourges and specters which means if u play anything melee then gl finding a squad for strike cms or even if you find one gl competing with a current ranged dps meta and seeing no matter what you gonna play mech beeing able to outdps any of your choices for most of the cases)

And personally i think vindi could get benchmark similar to slb, well they need to bring up dh, holo and reaper to that level aswell so all of those melee pdps builds at least at raids would have a fair chance with other pdps choices( saying in raids because situation at strike cms might be different)

I mean after things got worse with their "big balance patch" when they removed banners, in folowing balance patches so far they listened to community and are bringing slow but good changes to the game's balance(most of them at least and lets ignore the day they changed rifle for mechs XD), altho they still need to find balancing standarts for ranged dps builds because those are one of the main problems aswell, not just other dps ones lacking some damage when it creates just unfair situations even if ranged builds have similar dps to melee ones, ranged will be picked all the time regardless, so to make it fair melee dps builds should always have those bigger numbers to be able to compensate that dps loss if they have to move (and this applies to strike cms), but those are just my thoughts, will see what anet will show us soon(i think tomorow we will get something?)

Edited September 15, 2022 by soul.9651

[infant.8175]

 

3 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

 dh/reapers/daredevils/holosmiths - sure (but those are rare at raids)

 Most warrior power builds- i guess but there will be a difference between most played in raids and most existing power warrior builds, plus they fixed some bugs on it in the latest patch and it got some nice buffs overall so its either close while warrior taking the top in terms of competition or if we look at the bladesworn its not even close if played properly xd..(and if its a warrior at raids most of them will be bladesworns)

heralds-i would say they are wayyy better pick  even on full dps build you will get not just similar or better dps but also some extra boons and boon extension meanwhile vindicator stays greedy(and heralds are finally getting more popular)

 falls behind power virtuso/ power weaver/power soul beast - sure

And power mech just fits in every single encounter doesnt matter if its power or condi favored i would say virtuoso is close to mech in that sence aswell(and here are the main problems when 6+/10 are mechs in your squad or even better at strike cms seeing 8/10 pug mech squads while all of dps are stacking rifle mech +more and more pugs just straight up asking only for virtuosos and pmechs at strike cms  while other picks beeing scourges and specters which means if u play anything melee then gl finding a squad for strike cms or even if you find one gl competing with a current ranged dps meta and seeing no matter what you gonna play mech beeing able to outdps any of your choices for most of the cases)

And personally i think vindi could get benchmark similar to slb, well they need to bring up dh, holo and reaper to that level aswell so all of those melee pdps builds at least at raids would have a fair chance with other pdps choices( saying in raids because situation at strike cms might be different)

I mean after things got worse with their "big balance patch" when they removed banners, in folowing balance patches so far they listened to community and are bringing slow but good changes to the game's balance(most of them at least and lets ignore the day they changed rifle for mechs XD), altho they still need to find balancing standarts for ranged dps builds because those are one of the main problems aswell, not just other dps ones lacking some damage when it creates just unfair situations even if ranged builds have similar dps to melee ones, ranged will be picked all the time regardless, so to make it fair melee dps builds should always have those bigger numbers to be able to compensate that dps loss if they have to move (and this applies to strike cms), but those are just my thoughts, will see what anet will show us soon(i think tomorow we will get something?)

    if that's the case giving encounters periodic magnetic aura can balance the gab between ranged builds and melee

 

[phokus.8934]

8 hours ago, infant.8175 said:

well this is what a balanced build looks like and please mention the dps builds that its lagging behind too because if we analyze what ever builds you will mention you will find that vindicator is not to blame most of the time and since we are discussing vindicators in raids specifically its a fact that its competitive with dh/reapers/daredevils/holosmiths/most warrior power builds/heralds and falls behind power virtuso/ power weaver/power mechanist/power soul beast dps wise in power favored encounters so i truly fail to understand what makes vindicator lacking in specific encounters in raids that favors power builds is it a matter of wanting this build to be the best same as rifle mechanist ? or is it an issue with failing to understand that any reckless buff to this build might result in bigger problems down the line. 

PS :only thing making this not the same as mirage in its broken days is the harsh limitations that anet enforced on the build they could have easily made this spec to have 2 dodges instead of 1 or gave lower cds on hard hitting skills or better numbers overall 'vindicator isn't the strongest pdps build out there but it doesn't mean that its weak nor does it mean its not viable for raids . 

This is pretty hard to read with one huge run-on sentence.

I haven't seen anyone wanting Vindicator to be top dps but rather in the realm of being competitive.  Vindicator offers nothing other than damage in pve and what was showcased was a selfish dps spec.

So to keep this short and very clear, Vindicator needs a few more tweaks to bring it up to par with other power specs.  It's not far behind but it's not quite there yet.

[soul.9651]

2 hours ago, infant.8175 said:

 

    if that's the case giving encounters periodic magnetic aura can balance the gab between ranged builds and melee

 

I wish they added that one :d that is actually a good idea how to kinda fix melee and range dps balance differences

[Tescao.3042]

If gw2 has no berserk mods on bosses, then any encounter can be passed even in core party (by the way, this game is much harder because, as I understand it, core interacts more with stacking combos rather than spam). 
Although in the case of the Berserk mod, even -30% to DPS and -30% to HPS, did not prevent people from passing the citadel of the ice crown without the buff zone.

P. S. I would call the run-up of preferences a challenge, but people really liked DPS (isn't it reminiscent of dollars per second)

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on. None of that past discussion has anything to do with the current discussion about Vindicator being competitive from a raid POV and it doesn't change the fact that Herald is the obviously intended raid-focused pDPS spec for Revenant. And for the record, Herald, even the OLD version, was WAY better raid team mate than Vindicator has EVER been and probably ever WILL be, otherwise this discussion would never have started in the first place. 

Are you disagreeing with the fact that it doesn't make sense to push Vindicator in the exact position Anet wants Herald to be in for team content because THAT is what we are talking about here. 

This is perhaps the most out of touch comment you've ever posted that completely ignores the entire history of Herald since HoT release. It's so wrong I'm not even going to start to explain why as it's not even close to worth my time. Your conclusions about Herald being "the desired pdps spec" for Rev are so insanely incorrect holy kitten lmao

Edited September 15, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

13 hours ago, infant.8175 said:

especs are the way they are by design and not by chance and 2/3 of every espec is core ' following that logic all the power creep and imbalances that occurs in the game is directly related to especs if anything core builds are "balanced"
and ironically especs are the main culprit and reason for making gw2 balancing such a "nightmare" 
and besides core builds needing balance was never the main point it was always power creep and how to best mitigate it without rolling back to gw2 vanilla because at this rate next expansions if power creep left unchecked and "new expansion builds" needing to be better and competitive even todays meta builds will be obsolete same as old core builds that used to be meta in vanilla .

You missed my whole point. Core specs have never been adequately balanced with each other even before Especs. Especs have at least provided focused ways for each class to participate in end game content. Buffing core (outside of core profession skills) ALWAYS buffs Especs simultaneously and therefore creates the balance nightmare. Core should only be buffed when it's necessary for the profession as a whole, not to be competitive with the 27 especs. If especs are overperforming in relationship to each other then they should be addressed at the Espec level

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

This is perhaps the most out of touch comment you've ever posted that completely ignores the entire history of Herald since HoT release. It's so wrong I'm not even going to start to explain why as it's not even close to worth my time. Your conclusions about Herald being "the desired pdps spec" for Rev are so insanely incorrect holy kitten lmao

That's nice ... I don't see what that has to do with the discussion here.

The point I'm making here is that the idea Anet is going to make Vindicator a preferential raider as a pdps over Herald given all the effort they have put into Herald to be in that role is absurd. If you believe that's even a possibility, then it's not me who is out of touch here. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's nice ... I don't see what that has to do with the discussion here.

The point I'm making here is that the idea Anet is going to make Vindicator a preferential raider as a pdps over Herald given all the effort they have put into Herald to be in that role is absurd. If you believe that's even a possibility, then it's not me who is out of touch here. 

Herald already has its role, its quickness dps, not pure dps, how out of touch are you at this point yourself? Making vindicator a better pure dps option wont take anything from herald

Edited September 16, 2022 by soul.9651

[Polar.8634]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The point I'm making here is that the idea Anet is going to make Vindicator a preferential raider as a pdps over Herald given all the effort they have put into Herald to be in that role is absurd

No effort was made to make Herald top rev pdps. Last patch DPS was buffed across core traits, some herald traits and great sword. So they can make any spec "top DPS role" if they want to. But it's more logical for most people that vindicator will be buffed more because how it's DPS is low compared to other new specs, considering it's  DPS is selfish. And it is logical to expect vindi given some top boon since it is supposed to be healer too. What will in fact happen we will know soon anyways

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

No effort was made to make Herald top rev pdps. 

OK ... that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's highly unlikely Anet is going to make Vindicator into this competitive power DPS raid spec when they have already put all this effort into making Herald in it's current role that already covers whatever 'power DPS role' they have imagined Anet has defined. 

Ironically, you also identify why it's unlikely Anet will make Vindicator 'top rev pdps' with this very statement ... no effort was make to make Herald top rev pdps, a spec that Anet obviously singled out for filling a raid spot..

...  but SOMEHOW, the proponents of some kind of power DPS raid Vindicator think ALL sorts of effort are going to make Vindicator the top pdps build, even though it's the farthest thing from it. I will let you think about that. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Herald already has its role, its quickness dps, not pure dps, how out of touch are you at this point yourself? Making vindicator a better pure dps option wont take anything from herald

That interpretation doesn't make sense. Herald having a quickness role doesn't exclude it from using or being taken as a power dps spot. In fact, the benchmark builds for Herald are ALL power DPS and the DPS build version is actually decent output. The fact you can imagine Vindicator as a better DPS option isn't a reason to make it a better DPS option than what is already available.

Again, another example of you ignoring what already exists to justify something you think we need. It doesn't make sense to assess Vindicator filling a need for competitive power DPS while ignoring existing options. Funny you accuse me of being out of touch while you ignoring what already exists as the options you say Vindicator needs to provide. You aren't going to justify Vindicator needing to fill the 'pdps role' because that need is already filled. Try again. 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Polar.8634]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

but SOMEHOW, the proponents of some kind of power DPS raid Vindicator think ALL sorts of effort are going to make Vindicator the top pdps build, even though it's the farthest thing from it. I will let you think about that. 

i alredy said what is going on in same post

6 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

But it's more logical for most people that vindicator will be buffed more because how it's DPS is low compared to other new specs, considering it's  DPS is selfish

people think vindi dps will be buffed because it is not bright in any raid role as it is now.

as it is now, it only has dps role but with the kit it has, people dont pick it, which is proved by wingman metrics.

i dont recall any post where anyone is sure vindicator will become top dps. 

nothing to overthink about here

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Seems like you are the one who is out of touch with both: the meta and the revenant 

I'm Ok with whatever insulting label you want to give me. That doesn't change the fact that I anticipated that Vindicator wasn't going to get a DPS buff big enough to make it meta ... and it didn't get that buff and it's unlikely to get it in the future, for all the reasons you ignore ... that you can't. As for the recent 10% DPS buff ... how is that working out for Vindicator being meta? Just as I anticipated as well ... it's not. 

Again, making Vindicator competitive DPS is not a solution to making Vindicator more popular to raids. It hasn't worked for other specs, it's not going to work here for the same reasons. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Obtena.7952