Vindicator in raids?

[Jees.5478]

I disagree about the good dps that some ppl. talk about. 33k dps on a character with no group support is just bad.

 

With the current state of GW2, 35k is the minimum damage a full dps with no support have to do. So if somone finds a way to make 35k dps on a small hitbox with the vinidcator, then he will be ok. Burst damage is irelevant because its just for 2 seconds and then he falls behind.  

Let's see if the October patch will bring the buffs he needs and the rework for the legends to. 

[Buran.3796]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:55 AM, Aeolus.3615 said:

Arch selfish quickness is way much better actually than herald one lol...

 

Vindicator on PVE is way way better than in WvW lol..

   Yes, and means nothing: Herald used to have quickness in Impossible Odds, which both felt and was stronger at the time than the current Vindicator (or Herald).

    Vindicator's poularity in instanced content is already below 1%, which reflects fairly how is perceived by both Rev mainers and other players...

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

[Angesombre.4630]

I really like the percentage that vindicator takes with this maj and the one that engineer mecha takes for raids. Not even 0.20% for vindi, mecha + 5%.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Obtena.7952]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:59 PM, Deathleecher.8532 said:

How is "Vindicator" in raids? Imean when i look at https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks i cant find them :S?

That's because Snow Crow focuses on the most effective builds; the stuff that the 1%ers run. That isn't to say you can't run any build it doesn't list in a raid and still be successful.  

[Buran.3796]

   Snow Crows only list builds which they find optimal for each role but Wingman frames a good picture of the overall spec usage across instanced game modes and the numbers for Vindicator are just awfull, well below 1% even at Strikes (its most "succesfull" endevour).

    Yesterday, by the way, was the MAT with 0 Vindis and a couple of underperforming Heralds (which anyway wasn't used at semis or final). 

   Again, since PvP/WvW was a lost cause for Vindi since its conception, ANet should focus into making Vindi to shine at something in PvE (damage, or support of any kind maybe) before evrything beings diluted inside the Mechanist/Firebrand/Virtuoso. GW2 maybe "is designed to play what you want" but 5 professions are just falling apart as buildings in flames...

Edited August 28, 2022 by Buran.3796

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Snow Crows only list builds which they find optimal for each role but Wingman frames a good picture of the overall spec usage across instanced game modes and the numbers for Vindicator are just awfull, well below 1% even at Strikes (its most "succesfull" endevour).

    Yesterday, by the way, was the MAT with 0 Vindis and a couple of underperforming Heralds (which anyway wasn't used at semis or final). 

   Again, since PvP/WvW was a lost cause for Vindi since its conception, ANet should focus into making Vindi to shine at something in PvE (damage, or support of any kind maybe) before evrything beings diluted inside the Mechanist/Firebrand/Virtuoso. GW2 maybe "is designed to play what you want" but 5 professions are just falling apart as buildings in flames...

The take away here is that we have the philosophy of play how we want. But the idea that every spec being desirable in a team is not even reasonable at this point, even with roles. There are 27 especs, there are 10 spots in a team. The bandwidth just isn't there. 

What we DO get is  being able to be use any spec we want to be successful in endgame content ... and that's not just my view. That's how the game has always worked. The fact is that in a game where there are optimal options ... there are options that MUST NOT be optimal.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing I said is based on my view of how the game works. It's based on truth.

1. SC lists top builds  and we know Vindicator won't be found there

2. You don't need top builds to be successful because the game is designed to allow you to play what you want. 

Then give us sources and data where it shows that 1% you mentioned. Surely if its truth and not just your opinion you will be able to give us that. And if i see any excuses or "you can find it yourself" without any links which shows where that 1% is coming from then just admit it: its only your opinion based on nothing.

And you saying that this game is designed to allow you to play what you want is false for most of the time. All you would have as an example is a veteran players which would play off meta builds but you just ignore how their game experience are just bigger factor, and its not just "this game is designed to allow you to play what you want". Say the same thing to any open world person where he would want to play the game with a random traits picked which he thinks "should be good", lets say he has a random armor stats aswell and 4 runes, and this is how he wants to play this game. Do you think a squad of those kind of people would be able to kill even one raid boss? 

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

And you saying that this game is designed to allow you to play what you want is false for most of the time. 

Nothing you said changes the truth of the points you quoted, but this is particularly untrue. It's only false if you choose to play in a way that you don't play how you want. It's all about choices we make. 

I mean, I've played Vindicator in a endgame content. It's not particularly good. I'm not surprised it's not on any build lists. I didn't enjoy it. 

... BUT ...  if I want to do it again, I could do that very easily because of how I choose to play the game.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing you said changes the truth of the points you quoted, but this is particularly untrue. It's only false if you choose to play in a way that you don't play how you want. I play how I want 100% of the time. It's all about choices we make. 

I mean, I've played Vindicator in a endgame content. It's not particularly good. I'm not surprised it's not on any build lists.

... BUT ...  if I want to do it again, I could do that very easily. 

So you completly ignored the first part as expected

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

So you completly ignored the first part as expected

Of course I did because how I labeled top players as 1%ers has nothing to do with the point I'm making to you. I mean, call them whatever you want; any argument you want to have about what someone calls them is completely pedantic. The point doesn't change. 

If you want to play how you want, you have to make that choice. 

Again, if you REALLY want to play Vindicator in raids, you can. You just aren't likely to be able to do it in certain groups where high performance is desired.  Vindicator isn't a top group espec, so you won't see it on SC.

That doesn't make play how you want a false idea. It just means you have to do things to make it happen for yourself. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Buran.3796]

37 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 There are 27 especs, there are 10 spots in a team. The bandwidth just isn't there. 

   Objetively the number is even lower since the basic unit is a 5 character squad and most of boons are being tuned to only reach that cap, so 5 alone is enough.

   And that's what the charts are suggesting: since 3-4 professions alone are able to stack all the roles in the game you don't need the other 5 and that's what we are looking at. The only question for the average player is: is my class amongst the ones which the ANet designers do play or in the discard drawer?

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Objetively the number is even lower since the basic unit is a 5 character squad and most of boons are being tuned to only reach that cap, so 5 alone is enough.

   And that's what the charts are suggesting: since 3-4 professions alone are able to stack all the roles in the game you don't need the other 5 and that's what we are looking at. The only question for the average player is: is my class amongst the ones which the ANet designers do play or in the discard drawer?

Personally, I think that the data we have access to is biased towards players that play optimal builds or do  endgame content  frequently. So, to me, it's not sound to conclude the charts show that Anet has favourites they play and buff to leave everything else discarded.

To me, it suggests that the variety among builds for the kinds of players that submit Wingman data (which I believe are biased to higher skill players that do endgame content frequently) is LOW. 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

55 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Again, if you REALLY want to play Vindicator in raids, you can. You just aren't likely to be able to do it in certain groups where high performance is desired.  Vindicator isn't a top group espec, so you won't see it on SC.

That doesn't make play how you want a false idea. It just means you have to do things to make it happen for yourself.  

So you admit that as vindicator "you just arent likely to be able to do it in certain groups where high performance is desired" meaning you wont be able enter high kp or even any kp groups at lfg, static group looking for people will be the same because guess what, they also desire well performing people. You can only play vindicator at raids if you already have a group of people who dont care and if needed will carry you(and only few will have this option) or if lfg group doesnt care but other peoples performance at that kind of group might be questionable aswell and not everyone are willing to sit and wipe on the same boss for an hour. 

And what about those people if the way they want to play this game is as vindicator while having that high performance? Nop doesnt matter to you? Play how you want idea doesnt apply there? You even mentioning yourself vindicators poor performance.

Edited August 28, 2022 by soul.9651

[Buran.3796]

43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Personally, I think that the data we have access to is biased towards players that play optimal builds or do  endgame content  frequently.

   ...But is a very good and reliable sample of the reality, since most of players doesn't even do instanced content nor run with builds and skills able to perform well at them, as the nerfs of the dificulty in the last EoD main event proved. 

   I think that we even have statistics about how much % finished the mian campaign and/or adquired the turtle and were stunningly low. I myself did neither of them despite being 9K hour into the game with full leg armors (I still finishing the Skyscale quest, lol... ).

[Bunny.9834]

They need to boost the strike damage by a lot on the Vindi. I keep forgetting that it exist. 

It was too Viable in sPvP but we all know what happened there. 
 

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

So you admit that as vindicator "you just arent likely to be able to do it in certain groups where high performance is desired" meaning you wont be able enter high kp or even any kp groups at lfg, static group looking for people will be the same because guess what, they also desire well performing people. You can only play vindicator at raids if you already have a group of people who dont care and if needed will carry you(and only few will have this option) or if lfg group doesnt care but other peoples performance at that kind of group might be questionable aswell and not everyone are willing to sit and wipe on the same boss for an hour. 

Well, there is no 'admission' because I never doubted this in the first place. Again, if you want to play how you want, it has an impact on how you play, including how you find teams, etc ... 

Quote

And what about those people if the way they want to play this game is as vindicator while having that high performance? Nop doesnt matter to you? Play how you want idea doesnt apply there? You even mentioning yourself vindicators poor performance.

Then those people are screwed ... but that's not a problem because I as I said, Anet can't make all these specs be desirable by the kinds of teams you are talking about anyways. It's not about if it matters to ME ... I don't design the game. It's about how Anet wants the game to work and this isn't a new condition ... we have had many specs not high performers for 10 years now.  Vindicator just isn't exceptional that way. 

But ... don't confuse not playing how you want with unreasonably over-constraining the system with your list of conditions that must be met to do that. Again, if you want to play Vindicator, you can. If you want to play Vindicator and have good performance, you can't, because  if you choose correctly, poor performance doesn't prevent you from playing Vindicator anyways. You simply need to change how you think about playing the game.  

 I mean, you can argue with me all you like, but regardless of what is said here, it's clear that based on the history of the game, even up until recently ... if you want to play Vindicator in end game, you have to conform to how the game is designed to do that. No debate here will change that. That's been true for the ENTIRE history of the game. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[otto.5684]

12 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Snow Crows only list builds which they find optimal for each role but Wingman frames a good picture of the overall spec usage across instanced game modes and the numbers for Vindicator are just awfull, well below 1% even at Strikes (its most "succesfull" endevour).

    Yesterday, by the way, was the MAT with 0 Vindis and a couple of underperforming Heralds (which anyway wasn't used at semis or final). 

   Again, since PvP/WvW was a lost cause for Vindi since its conception, ANet should focus into making Vindi to shine at something in PvE (damage, or support of any kind maybe) before evrything beings diluted inside the Mechanist/Firebrand/Virtuoso. GW2 maybe "is designed to play what you want" but 5 professions are just falling apart as buildings in flames...

Let us get Vindicator to work well in PvE first. PvP is a lost cause. It is not a lost cause for Vindicator, it is a lost cause, period. For the last 3-4 balance patches were extremely light in PvP, and we are coming on the heels of an expansion. This is least amount of follow-up after an expansion by a huge margin. 

[Jees.5478]

Vindicator is just trash. The new legend is trash to. Look at Kala, Herald, Shiro and all the old legends... and then look at the new legend. Its a joke... Vindicator is not a finished spec and looks rushed.

I played him since release in all end game content but droped him after the last patch.

 

[Zaret.1450]

Im playing vindi in wvw, and just because i like using gs, the legend is... id say a half assed shiro, and shiro itself is meh, the evade is a bother and never helps (even more so in wvw were you get cced in the air), and the traits require you to have no dodge and to keep dodging to do things... so i just use jalis shiro and try to deal with it because i like gs, but prob ill end up playing other things more.

 

[krixis.9538]

if you play at snowcrows level then no.

 

If you like 90% of the playerbase play at a normal level then yes it is fine as dps. as for all pve as long as you play well almost all specs are fine in raids etc.

 

Snowcrows is just the ultimate Min/Max and most people who read their site think they are the 10% that are above the rest, when they are not.

 

the Meta is just most people misunderstand the best potential for speed clears vs normal everyday players.

[Angesombre.4630]

On the Snowcrows site the vindicator doesn't even exist with a small build, ok it's not the only one (reaper, dragon hunter and the second warrior specialization). But it is still one of the worst elite specialization.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:36 PM, Angesombre.4630 said:

On the Snowcrows site the vindicator doesn't even exist with a small build, ok it's not the only one (reaper, dragon hunter and the second warrior specialization). But it is still one of the worst elite specialization.

I wouldn’t say it’s one of the worst   It’s just exceedingly average. If you look at wingman the data shows it as just a decidedly average specialization. 
 

there is also an up to date bench for it on YouTube by one of the SC contributors  it’s just not listed on SC’s website for whatever reason 

[X Anthony A.8409]

On 8/28/2022 at 11:06 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

On 8/28/2022 at 11:06 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

The take away here is that we have the philosophy of play how we want. But the idea that every spec being desirable in a team is not even reasonable at this point, even with roles. There are 27 especs, there are 10 spots in a team. The bandwidth just isn't there. 

What we DO get is  being able to be use any spec we want to be successful in endgame content ... and that's not just my view. That's how the game has always worked. The fact is that in a game where there are optimal options ... there are options that MUST NOT be optimal.

I Believe you misunderstood what you said. every class Must be optimal that isn't to say that they all will be the top as that's not physically possible statistically speaking, but as it is right now a class that gives off nothing and is pure dps aka "vindicator" shouldn't be where it is in terms of damage. Vindicator being a pure selfish dps elite specialization should be top dps in my opinion or one of the top since it does not even provide crowd control and no before you say it staff does not count as that is a support weapon that lowers an already low selfish undesirable dps specialization in the first place so yeah no, no one would take that just to make up for the lack of crowd control and lower dps on a class thats mediocre at best if that. So basically classes that are pure selfish/offer nothing and based on how little they offer shouldn't have trade offs in terms of damage and since vindicator has nothing but pure selfishness on its dps side i don't see why at minimum it's not pulling 40k in the least other then that it needs either a damage increase or more utility/cc baked into its kit for it to even see any play otherwise that class will be forgotten about and dead.

 

[Obtena.7952]

@X Anthony A.8409I certainly didn't misunderstood what I said. There isn't a problem if Vindicator isn't where people think it should be in terms of damage. It's not unexpected or unreasonable that given the number of specs, some of them simply won't provide the level of performance some people want for endgame content. It's been clear for the entire history of this game that endgame content isn't the only consideration in Anet's design approach for especs. 

The part I like is where Vindicator just got a 10% DPS buff in the last patch which is exactly "the DPS bump"  people were saying it needed to fix this problem ... how's that going for y'all? Again ... Vindicator will NOT compete as a DPS team spot with its current dual-legend design. 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

@X Anthony A.8409

(snip)

.. Vindicator will NOT compete as a DPS team spot with its current dual-legend design. 

 

That's what im tryign to vindicate, with its hybrid dual legend system, reason i believe both need to be towards pwr stats based just one set to be offensive and other defensive mechanics.

Imo the issue is the hybrid stats that legends use IF viktor scales from pwr as well while being defensive utilities would increase the dps as well, its a conflict of stats and gameplay on the dual legend itself.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615