Vindicator in raids?

[Obtena.7952]

57 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

That's what im tryign to vindicate, with its hybrid dual legend system, reason i believe both need to be towards pwr stats based just one set to be offensive and other defensive mechanics.

Imo the issue is the hybrid stats that legends use IF viktor scales from pwr as well while being defensive utilities would increase the dps as well, its a conflict of stats and gameplay on the dual legend itself.

Um, this is hard to follow ... so I don't really know what you are meaning here. The design of the spec being offensive/defensive duality and the restrictions in DPS because of this duality isn't related to whether Victor is power or condi based. 

I mean ... the type of scaling is based on the weapon and traits. Clearly, we have a power based spec here. Alliance legend isn't condi friendly at all. Sorry, I just don't see what point you are making here. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mike.7983]

Vindicator does need straight up overhaul and massive increase to pve dps, for an elite that offers zero cc, zero utility and weak dps for a selfish dps elite what is even the point using.  Everyone is on the mech wagon due to the high reward zero effort needed, no point playing a dying class when you can ranged everything without trying.  Pure dps elites need to be pulling 40k, 35k for hybrids and 25k for supports.  Mech has to be slashed badly to stop the mech wars 2 dominance and vindicator needs to be pulling tons more to be relevant.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Mike.7983 said:

Vindicator does need straight up overhaul and massive increase to pve dps, for an elite that offers zero cc, zero utility and weak dps for a selfish dps elite what is even the point using. 

Well, the relevant question is if that's a problem to begin with. I mean, even if Vindicator got SOME of those things ... I hardly believe people complaining about it's performance would use it for endgame groups because it still wouldn't be that desirable anyways, which is the whole issue they have to begin with.

It's a good ruse though. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Um, this is hard to follow ... so I don't really know what you are meaning here. The design of the spec being offensive/defensive duality and the restrictions in DPS because of this duality isn't related to whether Victor is power or condi based. 

I mean ... the type of scaling is based on the weapon and traits. Clearly, we have a power based spec here. Alliance legend isn't condi friendly at all. Sorry, I just don't see what point you are making here. 

joking a little bit I know ur ok with whatever devs throw 🙂 if it was a 0 damage class or some nuke buton u would say guys its intended was designed that way hahah

On a more serious note:

Vindicator has 2 legends Viktor and Arch:

      Viktor - utilities that scales with healing power and boon duration stats

       Arch  -  Utilities that scale up with power stats and boon duration.

 

Theres 3 option to run this class and im not seying this with pve only perpective:

               1) Full DPS stats with or w/O boon duration where Victor will be weak and yet its utilities efectiveness are to tied to      healing  values, still forced to run Viktor that scales with diferent stats  as a shadow on a dps setup, its squishy more than most  classes and its DPS is one of the worse in terms of damage and also in  surviability.

              2) one can go in the midle have some boost on Vic utilities but would cut the damage output, this setup dont gain much surviability diference from the DPS role but also dont make much damage, its a toon that doesnt do much either.

              3) One can also lean more towards the defensive aspects of Viktor wich will be awfull at everything, does not help the party at all  unless its a player that is  100% being carried with party and still role playing like ur doing something for your group.

 

Viktor is defacto a restrain here, i dont see Anet buffing that much DPS builds on Vindicator since it is a hybrid spec, why would be a legend that has 8 utils  where has 2 heals 2 elite skills  be the top DPS? this is the reasoning i believe  Anet has towards this spec concept, wich is a wrong pov to look a the class. and possibles adjustments.

Both victor and Arch should be selfish gameplay with exception of Viktor urn dome(IT is a kitten LORE THING!!!).

Arch needs to be very offensive based buffs that improve damage output like the leap that is has etc, while Viktor needs to be more like a sturdier defensive gameplay that boost DPS the less HP has while URN is activated wich is ANOTHER kitten LORE THING.

Also Viktor utilities are a joke even treesong wich is actually very strong should have its regen and heals removed.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Aeolus.3615]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

(snip) it still wouldn't be that desirable anyways, which is the whole issue they have to begin with.

«

Thats because players in gw2 are extremelly lame, if cant carry "OMG its useless" in 1st place but theres also another side of the coin that when the classes really come out really borked up from the factory wich is actually the main issue more than the later one.

The spec the way it is organized it is not good.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Thats because players in gw2 are extremelly lame, if cant carry "OMG its useless" in 1st place but theres also another side of the coin that when the classes really come out really borked up from the factory wich is actually the main issue more than the later one.

The spec the way it is organized it is not good.

It's not ''borked up' if you know where it's good and how to use it. That's evident by it's performance in aspects of the game that aren't endgame PVE team content and some of the changes made to affect it's performance there recently. 

Again,  looking at some very small subset of content and claiming Vindicator isn't good for that content doesn't mean it's not a good spec or it's not 'organized good'. That's a VERY contrived argument. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not ''borked up' if you know where it's good and how to use it. That's evident by it's performance in aspects of the game that aren't endgame PVE team content and some of the changes made to affect it's performance there recently. 

Again,  looking at some very small subset of content and claiming Vindicator isn't good for that content doesn't mean it's not a good spec or it's not 'organized good'. That's a VERY contrived argument. 

Then the class is contrived  to not work in content outside open word...

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Then the class is contrived  to not work in content outside open word...

Hey if you think so ... but in the meantime ... Anet recently nerfed some Vindicator PVP performance, but sure ignore that if you think it makes you claim about how Vindicator is worthless outside of OW PVE a more compelling reason to fix what you claim is a 'borked' design.

I know how this will turn out. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[X Anthony A.8409]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

@X Anthony A.8409I certainly didn't misunderstood what I said. There isn't a problem if Vindicator isn't where people think it should be in terms of damage. It's not unexpected or unreasonable that given the number of specs, some of them simply won't provide the level of performance some people want for endgame content. It's been clear for the entire history of this game that endgame content isn't the only consideration in Anet's design approach for especs. 

The part I like is where Vindicator just got a 10% DPS buff in the last patch which is exactly "the DPS bump"  people were saying it needed to fix this problem ... how's that going for y'all? Again ... Vindicator will NOT compete as a DPS team spot with its current dual-legend design. 

 

Correction that is not the dps bump people were saying it needed but rather the dps bump it got many were rev players were calling it weak as a bump since its lacking all over a class with nothing else but pure dps should be benching harder then that as i stated before 40k or so unless it gets more utility or cc in its skills or traits. So either needs more utility/cc or actually more damage increase for anyone to actually feel like playing the spec but tbh there are other problems with it too as its clunky to play and a bit buggy which still hasn't been fixed

Edited September 13, 2022 by X Anthony A.8409

[Aeolus.3615]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hey if you think so ... but in the meantime ... Anet recently nerfed some Vindicator PVP performance, but sure ignore that.  

That was the build using Avatar stats right?

IF it is those stats dont exist outside pvp, that m8 be other way to look at the issue.

Still IMO redesigning Viktor would be the best option....

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

Correction that is not the dps bump people were saying it needed but rather the dps bump it got many were rev players were calling it weak as a bump since its lacking all over a class with nothing else but pure dps should be benching harder then that as i stated before 40k or so unless it gets more utility or cc in its skills or traits 

Right ... and that's because it's not going to get the DPS bump it needs to compete as a DPS slot in a team in the first place. It's duality of offensive/defensive design makes it highly unlike to ever bench 40K. 

[Aeolus.3615]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... and that's because it's not going to get the DPS bump it needs to compete as a DPS slot in a team in the first place. It's duality of offensive/defensive design makes it highly unlike to ever bench 40K. 

But obtena that funcionality Offensive/defensive dont work well due how game works... the defensiveness of the specs needs to change since its to much healing power  based while it needs to become a mix of shiro and jalis defensive skills without requiring those stats.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

That was the build using Avatar stats right?

IF it is those stats dont exist outside pvp, that m8 be other way to look at the issue.

Pretty sure the change to Vindicator had nothing to do with a specific Amulet stat.  

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

But obtena that funcionality Offensive/defensive dont work well due how game works... the defensiveness of the specs needs to change since its to much healing power  based while it needs to become a mix of shiro and jalis defensive skills.

Actually it works VERY well, just not in endgame PVE. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually it works VERY well, just not in endgame PVE. 

just because works well on open world doesnt meant class is ok.... and pvp died long long time ago back in 2012 when we all moved into gw2...

Bsides PVE open world even naked toon with a weapon can do it... anything bad works well in open world.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

just because works well on open world doesnt meant class is ok.... and pvp died long long time ago back in 2012 when we all moved into gw2...

Hold on ... PVP is a valid game mode in GW2 and you can't ignore Vindicator performance in a specific game mode so you can make a contrived argument that Vindicator is badly designed because it doesn't work how you want, where you want. That's just nonsense. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... PVP is a valid game mode in GW2 and you can't ignore Vindicator performance in whatever game mode you specify to have a contrived argument that Vindicator is badly designed. That's just nonsense. 

Meh its not that valid... i which i could belive otherwise, cause is a balance issue in the game mode itself it doesnt affect the other gamemodes,  it was OP in pvp but useless in wvw while both are pvp enviroments, not sure how i can digest that how come was so OP in pvp and was never good in WvW, its even bad for roaming or small scale combat.

Damage vindicator,  basicly almost 0 defenses, and leap that is easy to interrupt, and low damage.

Minstrell Vindicator  using monk runes with ventari dome and treee song afk players, been in same teams as this players and vs them, this kinda of players they provide way less support than they are thinking.... they are just a freaking wall than can be ignored.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Meh its not that valid... i which i could belive otherwise, cause is a balance issue in the game mode itself, OP in pvp useless in wvw while both are pvp enviroments, not sure how i can digest that how come was so OP in pvp and was never good in WvW, its even bad for roaming or small scale combat.

Damage vindicator,  basicly almost 0 defenses, and leap that is easy to interrupt, and low damage.

Minstrell Vindicator  using monk runes with ventari dome and treee song afk players, been againt and vs this kinda of players they provide way less support than they are thinking.... they are just a freaking wall than can be ignored.

Great ... so to be clear, as long as we just ignore everything that Vindicator does that is good, then it's bad. OK Got it. 😐

Again, you aren't going to make a compelling argument to change Vindicator by ignoring the good things that Vindicator does in order argue Vindicator is a bad design. This is a nonsensical argument.

I mean, I don't even get your dismissal of OW PVE. I don't actually see a problem if Vindicator is good there but not in a team. Somehow OW PVE is not valid either? Sounds to me like the only places you feel Vindicator performance is a valid discussion is where ever you decide and not the actual places it can be used.  That's about as contrived as it gets. 

"Hey, as long as we ONLY consider what I think is valid, I MUST be right"

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Great ... so as long as we just ignore everything that makes your point wrong ... then you're right. Got it. 😐

Again, this path is not honest. You aren't going to ignore the good things that Vindicator does to argue Vindicator is a bad design. 

I am being honest and i will tell u i say this about pvp  cause i  split pvp from the rest of the game, pvp is a side game with diferent gear builds that dont impact well outside of it.

Pvp eats anything that gets throwed into the game has its own balance, stats and rules system what m8 work there m8 not even work anywhere else.

Meanwhile pve and wvw are tied to each other and that is where the real problem exist.. open world, just stay there bashing some skales...just stay there.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

I am being honest and i will tell u i say this about pvp  cause i  split pvp from the rest of the game, pvp is a side game with diferent gear builds that dont impact well outside of it.

Pvp eats anything that gets throwed into the game has its own balance, stats and rules system what m8 work there m8 not even work anywhere else.

 

No No, it's all good ... just continue to tell everyone how aspects of the game you don't consider valid shouldn't impact how you think Anet should make the spec should work ... because it's all about you right? I guess you probably think  Anet doesn't even have a say in how this spec works, since you have no problem boldly telling people that who do use it they don't matter. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No No, it's all good ... just continue to tell everyone how aspects of the game you don't consider valid shouldn't impact how you think the spec should work ... because it's all about you right?

No its all about the players that want to play Vindicator at a decent peace and efectiveness outside open world and even WvW.

PVP is another beast that eats anything throwed to the game and will be tuned to work or overperform if the devs want. Pve and wvw are diferent u cant mix with pvp  since  pve/wvw that use the same stat system.

The current balance of the game changes or vindicator needs to change....

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

No its all about the players that want to play Vindicator at a decent peace and efectiveness outside open world and even WvW.

PVP is another beast that eats anything throwed to the game and will be tuned to work or overperform if the devs want. Pve and wvw are diferent u cant mix with pvp  since  pve/wvw that use the same stat system.

The current balance of the game changes or vindicator needs to change....

 

That's not going to happen at the expense of other players that have found a place in their game rotation with the spec. There is no honesty in claiming a scenario where Vindicator is a bad design, as long as we ignore all the parts of the game where it's not. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dark.8093]

in fairness:

- developers can and do (when they want) balancing individual game modes without nerfing (over-strengthening) classes in other game modes, but for some reason vindy is not available

- Obtena.7952 a well-known idle talker, communicating in streamlined phrases and avoiding specific statements, he filled with water under the lid not a single hundred threads. why they are still trying to have discussions with him is a mystery

- pve and pvp don't have the same stats. on the contrary, vvv balancing refers to pvp mode and has the same limitations

- I did not buy the add-on, one look and two beta vindy trays were enough for me not to expect something good from it. this is the main reason. But even so, I think that 33k on a small hitbox with a single dodge that is also spent to increase dps is negligible, ridiculously low. Why should a rev endure hardship without even a hint of reward?

Edited September 13, 2022 by Dark.8093

[soul.9651]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually it works VERY well, just not in endgame PVE. 

Then why are you even posting if the original post was exactly about raids and not about your OW or pvp examples XD

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Then why are you even posting if the original post was exactly about raids and not about your OW or pvp examples XD

because how and if Vindicator changes is relevant and affects ALL game modes, not just raids. 

Changes made to Vindicator to impact their role in raids is NOT isolated from other parts of the game that ALSO matter to people. 

I guess you aren't so excited about your 10% DPS increase after all. What did I tell you before about how that wouldn't solve the problem of competitive DPS?

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952