Vindicator in raids?

[soul.9651]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

because how and if Vindicator changes is relevant and affects ALL game modes, not just raids. 

Changes made to Vindicator to impact their role in raids is NOT isolated from other parts of the game that ALSO matter to people. 

I guess you aren't so excited about your 10% DPS increase after all. What did I tell you before about how that wouldn't solve the problem of competitive DPS?

You do realise they can make separate changes for pvp and pve?

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

You do realise they can make separate changes for pvp and pve?

Yes ... and I will just repeat to you again, changes made to Vindicator for raids is NOT isolated from other parts of the game. Of course, your just going to dismiss all those other parts to justify your position. 

But you got your DPS increase right? That didn't fix your problem (just like I told you it wouldn't) yet still you push for the same ineffective solution? Sad story. Too proud to admit DPS isn't the answer to the problem you have with Vindicator. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes ... and I will just repeat to you again, changes made to Vindicator for raids is NOT isolated from other parts of the game. 

So if you do, dont throw at us any examples with pvp while the whole topic is about pve and more specificly about raids. And if you wanna throw in open world examples know this, that in open world balance doesnt exist and any build works there, you cant compare OW with raids or to even decide whats meta and what is not, meta and pve balance only exists at raids, fractals, strike cms so people need to realise that balance is only relevant for high end instanced content... You can say that it would effect OW people but that effect would be absolutly minimal for them, hell some OW people dont even run full rune set or proper gear and how do you think any balance changes are relevant for those at OW? 

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

So if you do, dont throw at us any examples with pvp while the whole topic is about pve and more specificly about raids. And if you wanna throw in open world examples know this, that in open world balance doesnt exist and any build works there, you cant compare OW with raids or to even decide whats meta and what is not, meta and pve balance only exists at raids, fractals, strike cms so people need to realise that balance is only relevant for high end instanced content... You can say that it would effect OW people but that effect would be absolutly minimal for them, hell some OW people dont even run full rune set or proper gear and how do you think any balance changes are relevant for those at OW? 

Again, do NOT pretend that changes for Vindicator to impact raids is a minimal or insignificant changes to other parts of the game. That COMPELTELY depends on what the changes are. Do NOT make assumptions about what those changes would be to validate the claims they wouldn't impact other parts of the game. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

37 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, do NOT pretend that changes for Vindicator to impact raids is a minimal or insignificant changes to other parts of the game. That COMPELTELY depends on what the changes are. Do NOT make assumptions about what those changes would be to validate the claims they wouldn't impact other parts of the game. 

Ah yes you can see already how dominant vindicator is at OW and how further buffs would destroy OW variaty... Oh wait, those are mechs, and not just in OW but in every single piece of instanced content aswell XD you are the one making the assumptions rn

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Ah yes you can see already how dominant vindicator is at OW and how further buffs would destroy OW variaty... Oh wait, those are mechs, and not just in OW but in every single piece of instanced content aswell XD you are the one making the assumptions rn

That's a red herring. Deflecting to the popularity of mechanist in OW content does not change what I'm saying here. I've made no assumptions about how changes to a class can impact ALL their game modes. You on the other hand, have assumed that if changes would occur, they would be made to ONLY affect raid content. That's not just a BAD assumption, it's just untrue because any change made for raids would most definitely affect Vindicator performance in ALL of PVE content. There is simply no changes that Anet could make to Vindicator that would ONLY affect raid content. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a red herring. Deflecting to the popularity of mechanist in OW content does not change what I'm saying here. I've made no assumptions about how changes to a class can impact ALL their game modes. You on the other hand, have assumed that if changes would occur, they would be made to ONLY affect raid content. That's not just a BAD assumption, it's just untrue because any change made for raids would most definitely affect Vindicator performance in ALL of PVE content. There is simply no changes that Anet could make to Vindicator that would ONLY affect raid content. 

Lets put it this way, if person cant reach its spec skill ceiling and cant use his spec efficiently (and this is the case in open world or any other content outside optimized groups) u think they will feel any changes at their gameplay if anet tweaks benchmark numbers which they cant reach anyway? And again stop using "all game modes" because that means pve and pvp together when in reality anet balances those game modes separatly

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Lets put it this way, if person cant reach its spec skill ceiling and cant use his spec efficiently (and this is the case in open world or any other content outside optimized groups) u think they will feel any changes at their gameplay if anet tweaks benchmark numbers which they cant reach anyway? And again stop using "all game modes" because that means pve and pvp together when in reality anet balances those game modes separatly

OK, but nothing should lead you to the conclusion people can't use Vindicator efficiently, regardless of it's performance in any game mode. 

Again, ignoring where Vindicator is good to claim it's not is simply not an honest assessment here, EVEN if there are some areas of the game where there is some but not complete separation of balancing. I mean, the ONLY separation of balancing between PVE and other game modes is the numbers; you are assuming the only changes Anet would make to accommodate people complaining about raid performance is numbers. That's a BAD assumption, considering the thing holding back Vindicator isn't the numbers, it's the duality of the legends design. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing should lead you to the conclusion people can't use Vindicator effectively, even in OW. 

Depends what you have in mind by saying effectively, if just surviving and killing a world or a raid boss while not having best but more likely mediocre performance which was enough to complete the content "effectively" with a help from other people then sure, for me effectively stands for getting the best out of your class on each boss while beeing able to get that 90-100% of your benchmark.

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Depends what you have in mind by saying effectively, if just surviving and killing a world or a raid boss while not having best but more likely mediocre performance which was enough to complete the content "effectively" with a help from other people then sure, for me effectively stands for getting the best out of your class on each boss while beeing able to get that 90-100% of your benchmark.

Hold on ... your claim is that Vindicator is not effective, period. That's an absolute claim that completely ignores people's capability to use it or scenarios in the game where it is effective. I mean, if you are going to make 'effectively' a subjective assessment, then I'm going to tell you that lots of people are VERY effective at using Vindicator because you aren't the sole individual that gets to decide what that definition is. 

Bottomline: if you are going to say being effective 'depends' on how you define it, YOU don't get to define what that means for everyone. 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

25 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Bottomline: if you are going to say being effective 'depends' on how you define it, YOU don't get to define what that means for everyone. 

 

Sure i dont, neither do you because there are many people with different standarts in this game

Besides its only on devs to decide the standarts and you arent one

Edited September 14, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

32 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Sure i dont, neither do you because there are many people with different standarts in this game

True, except the difference between you and me is that I'm not doing that. I'm actually the ONLY one here that recognizes that there are scenarios where Vindicator is effective which is why I'm calling you out on your false premise that Vindicator not being effective is a reason to change it for raids. Funny you acknowledge devs set the standard, except you are using your own standards to justify the changes. 

Vindicator even has value and can be effective in team content but you won't admit that because it doesn't support your position. You have simply and falsely distilled it's only value down to DPS because that's the only argument you want Anet to consider, essentially ignoring any other aspect. 

The fortunate thing here is that this ruse is completely obvious and that it's probably the case that if there is a solution to Vindicator/raid use, it's NOT a 30% DPS increase so it competes for a DPS spot ... because that's an absurd solution. I'm OK with that. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

34 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

True, except the difference between you and me is that I'm not doing that. I'm actually the ONLY one here that recognizes that there are scenarios where Vindicator is effective which is why I'm calling you out on your false premise that Vindicator not being effective is a reason to change it for raids. 

I mean there are few scenarios if its high end instanced content and even fewer players who can pull out those scenarious to make vindicator effective, and imo vindicator should be more popular than that, there is a reason why gw2wingman shows only 0.36% popularity. People will always play specs which are effective on almost every single boss and not just on a couple encounters. This is why you see mechanists in every single boss in this game and it will be effective no matter if its OW, Raid, or strike cm, im not saying that vindicator should be as broken as mech is rn, but it deserves as many buffs it needs to make a spec more atractive for bigger player population and not just a few dedicated revenant players. This is how balance should look like, every spec should have a fair chance compared to other ones, while i know already that you are gonna say otherwise. Plus sure its not for me to dictate balance philosophy for anet but its neither for you, and also we cant say anything about it yet since they just changed the lead balance team dev and mentioned that they will change their balance philosophy aswell..

And there are some design issues to this spec aswell, like buffing just weapon coefficients wont work if a spec struggles with its utilities and elite skills, dps version straight up has the most useless elite skill in the game compared to every single elite spec and supp version wont exist with a current meta standarts.

Edited September 14, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

I mean there are few scenarios if its high end instanced content and even fewer players who can pull out those scenarious to make vindicator effective, and imo vindicator should be more popular than that, there is a reason why gw2wingman shows only 0.36% popularity. People will always play specs which are effective on almost every single boss and not just on a couple encounters. This is why you see mechanists in every single boss in this game and it will be effective no matter if its OW, Raid, or strike cm, im not saying that vindicator should be as broken as mech is rn, but it deserves as many buffs it needs to make a spec more atractive for bigger player population and not just a few dedicated revenant players. This is how balance should look like, every spec should have a fair chance compared to other ones, while i know already that you are gonna say otherwise. Plus sure its not for me to dictate balance philosophy for anet but its neither for you, and also we cant say anything about it yet since they just changed the lead balance team dev and mentioned that they will change their balance philosophy aswell..

I like the irony that you acknowledge devs decide on the standards the literally turn around and say the standard that the game should be designed around are the ones that matter to you. 

12 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

And there are some design issues to this spec aswell, like buffing just weapon coefficients wont work if a spec struggles with its utilities and elite skills, dps version straight up has the most useless elite skill in the game compared to every single elite spec and supp version wont exist with a current meta standarts.

So are you say buffing weapon coefficients won't work with the current design of the spec to fix popularity ... but in this thread and other threads, you supported increasing DPS as the way to make Vindicator popular in endgame content?

Sounds like a massive contradiction.

Sounds like you aren't really so certain of what should happen to address Vindicator team content popularity, if it's even regarded as a problem in the first place. 

Sounds like making lots of smoke and mirrors around raid popularity to justify a DPS increase (which we got last patch and didn't address popularity like you thought it would)

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I like the irony that you acknowledge devs decide on the standards the literally turn around and say the standard that the game should be designed around are the ones that matter to you. 

So you say buffing weapon coefficients won't work with the current design of the spec ... but in this thread and other threads, you supported increasing DPS as the way to make it popular in endgame content. Sounds to me you aren't sure what you are asking for here. 

There are more damage sources than just autoattacks 🙂 and i know you wanna this game to become autoattack simulator for each spec.. like i said they should change its elite and utilities, make elite synergise and interract with other vindicator skills.. just not what it is rn. They should buff its dps but not in a most boring and lazy way possible..

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

There are more damage sources than just autoattacks 🙂 and i know you wanna this game to become autoattack simulator for each spec.. like i said they should change its elite and utilities, make elite synergise and interract with other vindicator skills.. just not what it is rn. They should buff its dps but not in a most boring and lazy way possible..

OK ... no one singled out auto attacks here and I never said I want the game to be AA simulator here. So what I said still stands. Raid popularity isn't a reason to justify more DPS. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... no one singled out auto attacks here, so that doesn't change what I said. 

Yes noone did, but i already know how you advocate for Li builds

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Yes noone did, but i already know how you advocate for Li builds

Irrelevant to the conversation here. Raid popularity is a ruse to get more DPS which Anet recently increased 10% mind you. Ironically, LI builds aren't about DPS either. I guess we are at the point where you have exhausted your relevant discussion points?

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Irrelevant to the conversation here. Raid popularity is a ruse to get more DPS. 

Well if they reworked supp side of vindicator and made it available pick for raids noone would be mad either, its not always about dps, but rn its all vindicator can offer, well mediocre dps but still pretty much nothing more

Edited September 14, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Well if they reworked supp side of vindicator and made it available pick for raids noone would be mad either, its not always about dps, but rn its all vindicator can offer

Sure ... so why do you contradict yourself by pushing for more DPS for Vindicator when  it's not a solution to the problem you want addressed of Vindicator raid popularity in the first place? 

THE ANSWER: because your just want DPS, regardless of how it impacts the game. 

The real solution to Vindicator being popular in raids has nothing to do with giving it more DPS. It never has been, just like it never has been for other have-not, low team support specs in the past like Reaper. Again, look at how the game works and it's history if you want to understand it. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... so why do you contradict yourself by pushing for more DPS for Vindicator when  it's not a solution to the problem of Vindicator raid popularity in the first place? 

THE ANSWER: because your just want DPS. 

The real solution to Vindicator being popular in raids has nothing to do with giving it more DPS. It never has been, just like it never has been for other have-not, low team support specs in the past like Reaper. Again, look at how the game works and it's history if you want to understand it. 

Then please do elighten us with your "real" solution, ill be waitting

[infant.8175]

vindicator needs a minor buff like making f2 instant cast or slight reduction in upkeep costs on the blue side other than that its a fun dps build and its completely fine in raids that needs power builds . 

 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Then please do elighten us with your "real" solution, ill be waitting

You're going to be waiting a long time because it's not a problem Vindicator doesn't have as much DPS as you think it should, regardless of its popularity for raids. 

I mean, again, look at the recent changes ... there's a 10% buff there. If you already acknowledge DPS isn't the solution for raid popularity, it's not my job to tell you what is the solution for that, especially if I don't consider it a problem to begin with. I mean, if you are being honest in what you are saying, then you already know DPS isn't the solution.  

Edited September 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You're going to be waiting a long time because it's not a problem Vindicator doesn't have as much DPS as you think it should, regardless of its popularity for raids. 

I mean, again, look at the recent changes ... there's a 10% buff there. If you already acknowledge DPS isn't the solution for raid popularity, it's not my job to tell you what is, especially if I don't consider it a problem to begin with. 

Well only you alone think that. 

[infant.8175]

think of vindicator as part of revenant builds not an independent stand alone build and you would actually value it more .