The existing Tutorial achievement category has been deprecated and moved to the Historical category for anyone who has already completed them [Merged]

[Vayne.8563]

23 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

As an ap hunter, i can tell you most of those examples the changes were announced in advance (the miniture achievements) or implied (old pvp seasons legendary titles and adding desert bl to remove garrnet sanctum).  In past anet used to announce permanent removals for example pvp glory and spider path ta. 

But the achievements about removing the viewing the hints wasn't, and that most directly correlates to the current situation.

More to the point I've said more than once in this conversation that there should have been warning, so I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm disagreeing with hyperbolic language that will turn a lot of people off immediately. It prevents anything from being done. If I went up to an Anet dev and said y ou'd betrayed me, I wouldn't expect him to listen because it's not a reasonable position.

[Labjax.2465]

48 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm disagreeing with hyperbolic language that will turn a lot of people off immediately. It prevents anything from being done. If I went up to an Anet dev and said y ou'd betrayed me, I wouldn't expect him to listen because it's not a reasonable position.

I think trying to tone police how strongly people react to a change they don't like is kind of silly. It's not like we are irate customers getting up in someone's face who works a minimum wage job at a grocery store. This is some people posting feedback on a forum that most of the people on the team are probably allowed to never read a word of, if they desire to avoid it.

And when they do read, if they want to make the game better, part of that is discerning what the complaint is and whether something can be done about it. If someone wants to say they feel betrayed, who cares. If that were to prevent anything from being done (mashing X to doubt here) then it would be on anet to communicate that the tone is putting them off and they would have an easier time if people don't talk that way. We post stuff in a vacuum here. 99% of it is never responded to or acknowledged by anyone at anet. Trying to guess that one thing will result in more attention and one won't, like it's alchemy, is pointless.

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Labjax.2465 said:

I think trying to tone police how strongly people react to a change they don't like is kind of silly. It's not like we are irate customers getting up in someone's face who works a minimum wage job at a grocery store. This is some people posting feedback on a forum that most of the people on the team are probably allowed to never read a word of, if they desire to avoid it.

And when they do read, if they want to make the game better, part of that is discerning what the complaint is and whether something can be done about it. If someone wants to say they feel betrayed, who cares. If that were to prevent anything from being done (mashing X to doubt here) then it would be on anet to communicate that the tone is putting them off and they would have an easier time if people don't talk that way. We post stuff in a vacuum here. 99% of it is never responded to or acknowledged by anyone at anet. Trying to guess that one thing will result in more attention and one won't, like it's alchemy, is pointless.

I get that you think it's silly. I think all the hyperbole is silly. I've always spoken out against it and I always will, because it's unnecessary and does nothing but cloud the issues. It's okay if you disagree.  It doesn't change how I feel about it.

The issue is an achievement was removed without warning, and it's not the first time it happened. If you want people to respond to you, the way to do it is to seem reasonable. Because if you told me you've betrayed me, and I didn't, or you lied to me and I didn't, I'm far more likely to not help you.

[Labjax.2465]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I get that you think it's silly. I think all the hyperbole is silly. I've always spoken out against it and I always will, because it's unnecessary and does nothing but cloud the issues. It's okay if you disagree.  It doesn't change how I feel about it.

The issue is an achievement was removed without warning, and it's not the first time it happened. If you want people to respond to you, the way to do it is to seem reasonable. Because if you told me you've betrayed me, and I didn't, or you lied to me and I didn't, I'm far more likely to not help you.

I guess we differ there. If I was the developer and I removed something like that without warning and somebody said they felt betrayed or that I betrayed them, I think I'd be like that "yeah, sorry, that was a clear screwup on my part. It's understandable for you to feel that way and I'll be looking at how to correct this situation." I mean, they are paying me for this product, without which I'm just lighting time, money, and resources on fire, the least I can do is not pull the rug out from under them. Doesn't matter how trivial I think the rug pulling is, it's the fact that I pulled the rug and in doing so, have damaged how they perceive what I make. People have a need for security, some more than others, and it applies to stuff like this too, where people want to feel like they are putting their time and money into a relatively stable and predictable experience. If they lose the belief it's stable or predictable, they're gonna start questioning what they're putting into it. And then it takes extra resources to get their trust back, if they are still willing to give you another chance, resources that could have been spent not pulling the rug out from under them.

It's like that saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I guess we differ there. If I was the developer and I removed something like that without warning and somebody said they felt betrayed or that I betrayed them, I think I'd be like that "yeah, sorry, that was a clear screwup on my part. It's understandable for you to feel that way and I'll be looking at how to correct this situation." I mean, they are paying me for this product, without which I'm just lighting time, money, and resources on fire, the least I can do is not pull the rug out from under them. Doesn't matter how trivial I think the rug pulling is, it's the fact that I pulled the rug and in doing so, have damaged how they perceive what I make. People have a need for security, some more than others, and it applies to stuff like this too, where people want to feel like they are putting their time and money into a relatively stable and predictable experience. If they lose the belief it's stable or predictable, they're gonna start questioning what they're putting into it. And then it takes extra resources to get their trust back, if they are still willing to give you another chance, resources that could have been spent not pulling the rug out from under them.

It's like that saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Developers are people too, and I'm sure they're tired of hearing the word lied to and betrayed when a simple request would do the same thing.  Again if someone called me a liar and I had no intention to mislead, my first reaction would be to dismiss them, because I don't need to deal with any kind of abuse from anyone and I won't.  That's how I was raised and that's how I remain to this day.

A person doesn't need to be maligned just because you're aggrieved, until they were doing something maliciously.

[Labjax.2465]

6 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Developers are people too, and I'm sure they're tired of hearing the word lied to and betrayed when a simple request would do the same thing.  Again if someone called me a liar and I had no intention to mislead, my first reaction would be to dismiss them, because I don't need to deal with any kind of abuse from anyone and I won't.  That's how I was raised and that's how I remain to this day.

A person doesn't need to be maligned just because you're aggrieved, until they were doing something maliciously.

I would not consider it abuse for someone to call me out on being negligent about a product they pay for that I oversee, but that's just me. I take responsibility for my actions and that's how I was raised.

[Freya.9075]

I’m a bit bummed they removed these as I was planning to complete them but had other priorities. Oh well. Time to shrug it off and find something else. Not that big of a deal really

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I would not consider it abuse for someone to call me out on being negligent about a product they pay for that I oversee, but that's just me. I take responsibility for my actions and that's how I was raised.

If you can't see the difference between someone calling someone negligent and someone calling someone a liar, there's nothing else to discuss. In my generation calling someone a liar was a bad thing. Calling someone negligent just meant they were careless. Intent matters, even if some people do not think it does.  Anyway I'm done with this conversation. We don't agree and our disagreement is one of foundational matter. Nothing either of us say are going to convince the other.

If you think it's okay to run around calling people liars, that's a decision for you. In my book it's not okay, and it will never be okay. It's probably the way I was raised.

[Labjax.2465]

4 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

If you can't see the difference between someone calling someone negligent and someone calling someone a liar, there's nothing else to discuss. In my generation calling someone a liar was a bad thing. Calling someone negligent just meant they were careless. Intent matters, even if some people do not think it does.  Anyway I'm done with this conversation. We don't agree and our disagreement is one of foundational matter. Nothing either of us say are going to convince the other.

If you think it's okay to run around calling people liars, that's a decision for you. In my book it's not okay, and it will never be okay. It's probably the way I was raised.

Being a liar is what is a bad thing. Calling someone a liar is only a bad thing if there is no reason to believe they are. If you have reason to believe someone mislead you, it's valid to bring it up. That's just protecting yourself from abuse. And if the person who is accused knows they didn't lie, they can be affronted they were accused of being a lair if they want, but nothing is going to improve about the situation if they just blow off the person who made the accusation because they feel affronted. I mean, weren't you the one saying it doesn't matter if you feel betrayed, what matters is if you were betrayed. That goes both ways. You can feel someone wrongly accused you, it doesn't define whether you were wrongfully accused.

[Vayne.8563]

22 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Being a liar is what is a bad thing. Calling someone a liar is only a bad thing if there is no reason to believe they are. If you have reason to believe someone mislead you, it's valid to bring it up. That's just protecting yourself from abuse. And if the person who is accused knows they didn't lie, they can be affronted they were accused of being a lair if they want, but nothing is going to improve about the situation if they just blow off the person who made the accusation because they feel affronted. I mean, weren't you the one saying it doesn't matter if you feel betrayed, what matters is if you were betrayed. That goes both ways. You can feel someone wrongly accused you, it doesn't define whether you were wrongfully accused.

So if I have reason to believe someone is a murderer it's okay to call them a murderer?  There is such a thing as verifying facts before you accuse.  This is an unreal thing to say to me.

People have feelings and reputation. I'd rather not name call at all, until I had facts. What we have here is a theory based on no evidence at all. If you imply something and then do something else and I don't like it, it would be a very very long stretch to call you a liar. The people who do this are people who don't generally care about maligning other people with no evidence. I feel really strongly about this. You don't get to call someone a liar just because you don't like something they did.  You don't even get to call them a liar if you suspect they may have lied.

I'm going to remove myself from this thread. Too often people have been hurt by untrue accusations in this world, whether they did something wrong or not. I have no desire to support that kind of behavior.

[Labjax.2465]

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

So if I have reason to believe someone is a murderer it's okay to call them a murderer?  There is such a thing as verifying facts before you accuse.  This is an unreal thing to say to me.

People have feelings and reputation. I'd rather not name call at all, until I had facts. What we have here is a theory based on no evidence at all. If you imply something and then do something else and I don't like it, it would be a very very long stretch to call you a liar. The people who do this are people who don't generally care about maligning other people with no evidence. I feel really strongly about this. You don't get to call someone a liar just because you don't like something they did.  You don't even get to call them a liar if you suspect they may have lied.

I'm going to remove myself from this thread. Too often people have been hurt by untrue accusations in this world, whether they did something wrong or not. I have no desire to support that kind of behavior.

Rails against hyperbole.

Compares being accused of lying once to being accused of murder.

And now you are telling me even if you have reason to believe someone lied, you shouldn't call them a liar. So how exactly are you supposed to call out unacceptable behavior, ever. Maybe you shouldn't going around accusing people of hyperbole if you don't have evidence they intended to be hyperbolic then?

 

[Wonderly.1324]

I really did not appreciate the lack of warning before they depreciated the Tutorial achievements. Now theres forever a blemish on my account of a partially completed achievement which could have been easily remedied if they had given us some warning of their plans.

I think they should bring back the tutorial achievements, even if temporarily, and give people fair warnings before making achievements and achievement points forever unobtainable. It's a smaller audiance to be fair, but you'd think they'd have learned the lesson of making sudden changes with the warrior banners rework.

[Farohna.6247]

I have a shiny weapon achieve I'll never complete because I don't participate in raids.  Boohoo to the blemish.

[Lysico.4906]

Blemish ??   Lol op

[Lama.2735]

We can all agree to disagree.  But until we get some communication on why this had to happen or until they get implemented back into the game, I will be speaking with my wallet.  I was supporting Anet on a monthly basis but this IS betrayal to me.  I will not be purchasing any more gems in the future and make sure I share my frustration with everyone.  It was enough for me to come post on the last place I'd come to complain.  As a end game player now, AP is all that matters to me.  This is betrayal to me whether Vayne sees it that way or not, he/she's fine with it and I am not.  If something Vayne likes AP wise in the game is suddenly removed without any notice, he or she probably will be singing a different tune.  Anyways, I hope Anet addresses this but like I said before, the removal of these Tutorial achievements was, unwarranted, unnecessary, and silly in my honest opinion. 

[yoni.7015]

We all had enough time to complete the tutorial achievements, they were in the game for how long? You didn’t care to do them but now you’re complaining? Removing them is not a big deal in my opinion. In the end it’s  just achievement points. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Lama.2735]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

We all had enough time to complete the tutorial achievements, removing them is not a big deal in my opinion. In the end it’s  just achievement points. 

That is not my point I am trying to address at all.  Anet didn't communicate that with us and now there's some tension.  A simple post in a previous release notes would be sufficient.  If I missed it then, that'd be my fault.  What's to say they won't remove a big chunk of AP (PvP for example) just because they were "restructuring" it to make the game better?  Now I am constantly going.... "What could be next on the chopping block?"  This stresses me out honestly.

[Lama.2735]

12 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

We all had enough time to complete the tutorial achievements, they were in the game for how long? You didn’t care to do them but not you’re complaining? Removing them is not a big deal in my opinion. In the end it’s  just achievement points. 

 

Well, since you changed your train of thought, three letters, R-N-G.  Could it occur to you I've BEEN trying to do it?  Even last week I said I was going to get it before the steam release cause I was really close to beating one of my guild mates in AP and it just never dropped for me.  Is that my fault for not farming it 100% of the time I am on?  To you I guess it is my fault.  Again, we can agree to disagree.  I am trying to direct this conversation to an Anet dev for an explanation.  

[Lama.2735]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:56 AM, Myriada.7580 said:

I'm saddened by the ever increasing amount of retired AP. I know not the majority of players like collecting every single last point, but for those who do it's very frustrating knowing that no matter how hard you grind there will always be a couple thousand points beyond our reach for the simple fact you didn't start early enough.

I'll repeat my suggestion here in case it has more visibility, but please give the monthly/daily combined AP cap treatment to other achievements. That is, let us earn AP from two sources: the old and retired one, and a new currently available one. In this case the Tutorial achievements retired in this last patch and the new Adventure Guide would count towards a shared 125AP cap. It could be extended to festival achievements as well.

 

 

Reposting since this is a great solution to the AP problem.  

[Kori Jenkins.9017]

Sad that you're getting spammed confused on you when you're 100% right. 

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I have a shiny weapon achieve I'll never complete because I don't participate in raids.  Boohoo to the blemish.

Yeah, because someone being denied achievement points by the developers is definitely equal to you being a lazy. 

[Farohna.6247]

21 minutes ago, Kori Jenkins.9017 said:

Sad that you're getting spammed confused on you when you're 100% right. 

Yeah, because someone being denied achievement points by the developers is definitely equal to you being a lazy. 

As opposed to bringing back the achievement that was for those?  I do agree the new tutorial ones should have achievement points.   But neither are exactly game ruining experiences that are a blemish upon one's account.

[Sobx.1758]

It's true that there should be a warning, probably at least a month earlier, before these achievements were retired (if it was necessary to retire at all -and I think it's fairly clear how they collide with the new tutorial achievements). On the other hand I can't help but see it as pretty interesting how some people didn't care about them for 2-3 years, but now they're turning into achievement hunters that will be missing AP because tutorial achievements got removed.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

29 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

As opposed to bringing back the achievement that was for those?  I do agree the new tutorial ones should have achievement points.   But neither are exactly game ruining experiences that are a blemish upon one's account.

"Game ruining" is a pretty subjective concept, and this isn't even a particularly odd example of something that would bother someone.  GW2 is full of completionist activities, and Achievement Points are one of the few things people compete over.  Not being able to either 100% something, or being locked out of potential advantage is pretty liable to annoy quite a lot of people.

 

I don't personally care about this, as I'm pretty sure I'd finished these up ages ago.  But giving people at least a warning (or just renaming the set if "tutorial" was confusing) seems like a fairly trivial ask.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's true that there should be a warning, probably at least a month earlier, before these achievements were retired (if it was necessary to retire at all -and I think it's fairly clear how they collide with the new tutorial achievements). On the other hand I can't help but see it as pretty interesting how some people didn't care about them for 2-3 years, but now they're turning into achievement hunters that will be missing AP because tutorial achievements got removed.

There are a LOT of achievement categories in the game.  Unless you've finished every other thing the game has to offer, it's pretty reasonable to have these on a long to-do list and not have prioritised them yet because you thought they'd be available later.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Sounds like why the Gem Store doesn't offer every item all the time.  If they did, players would say, "I'll get them another time, because they will be available later."