Nerfing core to tone down Elite specs (Undo Kit nerfs)

[Kuma.1503]

Nerfing Core to tone down elite specs should only be done when no other option is sufficient. With the med blaster and elixir gun nerfs, there are several other nerfs that could have been done to tone down HAM without impacting other builds. 

Toning down Mechanist was the right move, but hitting core is an unnecessary hit to support Scrapper. This build already struggles to see play over HfB, so nerfing it accomplishes nothing productive or positive for the game, and just makes a less popular option less appealing. 

Either support scrapper should see some buffs to compensate, the nerf should be reverted, or applied to Mechanist only. 

Raw healing is one of the few things support scrapper has going for it over HfB, taking part of that away just further encourages players to default to FB as their quickness source. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Did you forget what kind of game GW2 is? We only nerf core and leave busted e-spec as per protocol. /s

[Zaret.1450]

im not sure if the healing is really that big of a nerf, counting that fb also got a couple nerfs in boon application. i say this because heal scrapp is used in wvw and i heard it heals more than fb, so i dont realy know, also i think scrapp could be a dps sup while mech is more heal supp, itd be a matter of wait and see i think

[ThrakathNar.4537]

14 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

im not sure if the healing is really that big of a nerf, counting that fb also got a couple nerfs in boon application. i say this because heal scrapp is used in wvw and i heard it heals more than fb, so i dont realy know, also i think scrapp could be a dps sup while mech is more heal supp, itd be a matter of wait and see i think

Except heal Scrapper didn't get nerfed in WvW - it got nerfed in PvE: a place where the build was by no means overperforming, just seeing a bit of use.

 

Personally, I don't think Scrapper should be a support (the traitline really isn't built for it, especially Impact Savant), but ANet disagrees with that, in their own words:

"Scrappers are support-oriented engineers with access to gyros and a plethora of other cleansing abilities. You can aid multiple allies in large-scale battles with massive area-of-effect skills, healing and providing superspeed and other necessary boons. They are also adept at crowd control. "  (Taken from the in-game text that appears when you mouse over the Scrapper specialisation)

 

This means that ANet wants Scrapper to be a support, and this patch is a nerf to that intentional role in PvE. Personally - I think they forgot about Scrapper completely when making this change, but the game devs not knowing about the stuff that's in the game isn't an excuse for bad balance decisions, it's a reason.

[GWstinkt.6094]

Engineer gets all of its healing and cleansing output from core traits and abilities. So when you want to nerf Engineers healing and cleansing output you have to nerf core engineer. The performance of Mechanist was also adressed directly by reducing stability access and barrier output.

Engineers access to raw healing and cleansing was a bit ridiculous. The Elixir had 11 ticks of healing and condi cleanse and medkit stull pumps amazing heal numbers after this nerf. They just brought these skills more in line with other healing abilities in the game.

This patch doesn't change where support engineer sits in the game. It still puts out great healing and lots of condi cleanse. Heal Scrapper and heal Mechanist are still good for the same reasons as before. Their numbers are just more in line with what you would expect from other heal builds.

[Zaret.1450]

5 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Except heal Scrapper didn't get nerfed in WvW - it got nerfed in PvE: a place where the build was by no means overperforming, just seeing a bit of use.

 

Personally, I don't think Scrapper should be a support (the traitline really isn't built for it, especially Impact Savant), but ANet disagrees with that, in their own words:

"Scrappers are support-oriented engineers with access to gyros and a plethora of other cleansing abilities. You can aid multiple allies in large-scale battles with massive area-of-effect skills, healing and providing superspeed and other necessary boons. They are also adept at crowd control. "  (Taken from the in-game text that appears when you mouse over the Scrapper specialisation)

 

This means that ANet wants Scrapper to be a support, and this patch is a nerf to that intentional role in PvE. Personally - I think they forgot about Scrapper completely when making this change, but the game devs not knowing about the stuff that's in the game isn't an excuse for bad balance decisions, it's a reason.

i mentioned wvw because if im not wrong the nerf, in terms of healing and stuff, brings it to the point where its the same as in wvw, the same coeficients and the same cds or similar, also scrapper is suport, it has quickness, power, stab, stealth, barrier, condi cleanse and i think it still has superspeed? it is a more dps suport than a heal suport, true, but only hammer and one giro are dps while the other giros, the toolbelt skills and traits are very good suport wise, is it better than hfb? well it depends on the content, scrapp is better on wvw because it has stealth and better healing while moving, while fb is better on static encounters, but boon wise and heal wise id say theyre on par, or at least very close.

[Kuma.1503]

6 hours ago, GWstinkt.6094 said:

Engineers access to raw healing and cleansing was a bit ridiculous. The Elixir had 11 ticks of healing and condi cleanse and medkit stull pumps amazing heal numbers after this nerf. They just brought these skills more in line with other healing abilities in the game.

 

Elixir has 1 tick of condi cleanse. It only applies on the initial pulse. 

Bringing Engineer's healing output in-line sounds good on paper, but it ignores something crucial. 

Lets say you have two builds. 

Build A has a utility score of 10/10. Build B has a utility score of 5/10. 

Build A has a healing value of 5/10. Build B has a healing value of 10/10. 

 

The devs in this instance recognize that build B's healing value is "out of line" so they nerf it down to 5/10. They do not recognize that build A's utility score is out of line, so they leave it as is. 

Now Build B's healing is in line, which you would assume is good balance, but now Build B is completely eclipsed by build A. This is the same issue people currently have with rifle Mehchanist. If one build completely eclipses another to the point where 99% of people pick build A over build B, that is not good balance. 

Nerfing build B so that it is further eclipsed by build A is not making the game more balanced, it is widening the gap between meta and off-meta. No, heal scrapper is not dead, but it was an unecessary nerf to a build that did not need nerfs. 

There were other areas in which Heal mech could have been toned down, such as reducing or removing regen from mace 2, forcing them to rely more on their active healing tools. 

Quote

Engineer gets all of its healing and cleansing output from core traits and abilities. So when you want to nerf Engineers healing and cleansing output you have to nerf core engineer. The performance of Mechanist was also adressed directly by reducing stability access and barrier output.

This is easily solved by slapping a "When mechanist is selected" onto whichever core nerf is being done. This is what Anet does when nerfing guardian and it lets them tone down FB without hitting other guardian builds that aren't overperforming. There's no reason why it cannot be applied here. 

Heal Scrapper was not a problem in PvE and nerfing it serves no real utility to the game. It does not improve balance, and arguably makes it worse. This is was a poorly executed change that should be reversed. 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[ThrakathNar.4537]

5 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

i mentioned wvw because if im not wrong the nerf, in terms of healing and stuff, brings it to the point where its the same as in wvw, the same coeficients and the same cds or similar, also scrapper is suport, it has quickness, power, stab, stealth, barrier, condi cleanse and i think it still has superspeed?

 

The thing is though - most supports have significantly more nerfed coefficients in WvW than they do in PvE. Ele staff water autoattack has a 0.25 coefficient in PvE, but a 0.15 coefficient in WvW. Rev staff auto has a 0.3 healing coefficient in PvE, and a 0.15 coefficient in WvW (2 examples, but I could list so many more if you want). Bringing any PvE spec down to the same numbers as its WvW spec will make it significantly weaker than the competitors. Even if Scrapper is still the strongest in WvW, nerfing the PvE numbers to that level puts it at the bottom of the pile.

 

5 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

the toolbelt skills and traits are very good suport wise

There is only one trait in the entire Scrapper traitline that brings any sort of group support, and that is the one that gives quickness. Everything else is personal survivability or DPS, purely selfish stuff. Out of the toolbelt skills, both Chemical Field and Spare Capacitor exist only for DPS builds, and Bypass Coating is something you need to press off c/d just to maintain quickness (you can't save it for the actual group stunbreak). Defence Field is the only gyro toolbelt I'd argue is actually good support-wise (since you don't take heal gyro on full support builds).

 

5 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

is it better than hfb? well it depends on the content, scrapp is better on wvw because it has stealth and better healing while moving, while fb is better on static encounters, but boon wise and heal wise id say theyre on par, or at least very close.

If Scrapper is on-par with Firebrand healing in PvE, then that means it has below average healing. Firebrand's power comes from the utility value it brings, with more access to Stability and Aegis than any other class just baked in.

Compare this with the healing output of Druid and Tempest. Pre June 2022, Druid healing was so good that you could still fill a dedicated healing role, even when you didn't take the trait that gave you a 50% modifier to all healing when in CA. Lingering Lights was such an incredibly strong trait, but you didn't even need to take it, your base healing was that good.

Similarly, new Tempest takes Lucent Singularity for the alacrity instead of Elemental Bastion, despite the latter giving a massive heal every time you apply an aura (of which you have a tonne). Healing from water attunement is just that strong that you can give a massive source of healing and still be a valid healer. I don't even want to touch on the healing you can get from Salvation+Ventari Rev.

 

Was Support Scrapper bad before this patch? No. Was it outperformed massively by its counterparts? Absolutely Yes. Hence why this PvE nerf was unjustified.

[Bunny.9834]

story of core thief lol. welcome to the fold.