SleepyBat.9034 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 (edited) I would like to apologize to everyone in advance for the length of this post however I encourage you to take the time to read it as I cover some important topics relating to Engineer class balance! /// Who Am I? /// I am a WvW Roamer who has considerable experience roaming on Engineer and Necromancer, as well as decent experience roaming on a variety of other classes. I enjoy exploring different build ideas and attempting to create new and innovative roaming builds for many of the classes I play. I have some experience in open world PvE but relatively little experience in the high end PvE and PvP game-modes and in large group WvW play. I started playing Guild Wars 2 on December 20, 2019 and I think I have a good understanding of how the game works. /// The Goal Of This Post /// To recommend some potential changes for Turret skill type and a trait in the Inventions trait-line in the hopes of offering some perspective on how under-powered turrets* could be improved and made more viable in all game-modes. With minimal changes and without making them oppressive or promoting degenerative game-play. *Note: Healing and Thumper Turrets are the only viable turrets currently, Supply Crate is primarily used for the activation crowd control, not the turrets it spawns. /// Disclaimer /// I understand that the Arena Net balance team for Guild Wars 2 is not required to implement recommendations made by its players nor should it because players often do not know what is in the best interests for the health of the game, however it is the mark of a good balance team to listen to feedback from its player-base who often offer insight into balance issues. This post is not completed and I accept all constructive criticism and will continue to update this post as I go adding any recommended changes or ideas to this post if they align with the goal of this post. /// What Is A Turret? /// A Turret is an immobile, automated device that can be deployed. Most turrets will automatically engage the player's current target, the only exception to this being the Healing Turret. After deployment, the turret will automatically utilize its overcharge skill, which will create a special effect such as improved rate of fire or area of effect attack. A turret can only be overcharged once per deployment. After utilizing its overcharge skill it will auto-attack as long as it is in range of the target until its duration ends or it is destroyed. All turrets are stationary; to redeploy them, players need to detonate them via the turret's sequence skill or pick them up by interacting with them. Picking them up reduces the redeployment recharge by 25% while detonation will cause damage around the turret's location and create a blast finisher combo effect. All turrets grant a tool belt skill that resembles the effect of the turret's action. Note: I think turrets should function like manually cast Engineer skills fired from a different direction with the purpose of distracting opponents and provoking a response (A good example of this concept is Necromancer's Flesh Wurm, which distracts your opponent not because of its lackluster damage but because of its stunbreak mechanic). /// The Current Issues Regarding Turrets /// Major issues currently inhibiting the viability of many turrets. They spawn on the player's location when deployed allowing them to be easily cleaved down during competitive game-play. They all have very low health regardless of their play-style. They do not scale properly with the Engineers stats. Turrets do not function with many traits that should be affecting them. Many turrets could use minor adjustments to their mechanics and variables. /// Proposed Solution /// Minimum changes that could be taken to resolve current issues inflicting many turrets. Give us the old Deployable Turrets trait back which would allow turrets to use ground targeting. Increase turrets base health/defense based on their play-style. Make turrets scale equal to 100% of the Engineer's stats* with the exception of Toughness and Vitality because I think those stats should be predefined based on the turret's play-style. I believe Healing Power, Concentration, Condition Damage, and Expertise already do this but Power, Precision, and Ferocity do not. Make traits which affect turrets function properly. Adjust turrets as needed for each game-mode. *Note: Naturally the current base damage of many turret skills would be reduced to prevent excessively high damage after power increases, crit chance, and crit damage are factored in. /// Turret Rework Ideas /// Note: Traits and stats are not taken into account in the ratings below. Traits and stats will only affect turrets Damage and Utility ratings. Rifle Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Rifle Turret should become a long range, glass cannon turret which inflicts power damage and is designed around a burst play-style. I think it could be viable in WvW if its overcharge skill becomes a rapid volley attack and its Passive skill to become a low damage double tap, and if it gets cooldown increase. It needs to inflict enough damage to justify taking Rifle Turret as a single target Damage Utility skill. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged. WvW Rifle Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 25 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 18.75 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: low. Overcharge skill: Damage (8x): 800 - 8x Vulnerability: 4 sec - Duration: 1.25 sec - Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% Chance) - Attack Range: 1000. Passive skill: Damage: (2x): 134 - Rate of Fire: 3 sec - Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% Chance) - Attack Range: 1000. Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0 sec - Cooldown: 8 sec - Damage: 204 - Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile - Range: 1000. Overcharge Damage: high. Passive Damage: low. Action Speed: fast. Duration: fixed. Range: long. Cooldown: medium. Survivability: low. Utility: low. Flame Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Flame Turret would function best as a short range, bunker turret which inflicts condition damage and is designed around a sustained damage play-style. I think the turret needs a longer cooldown and its passive skill needs to have faster action speed and longer attack range to be viable in WvW. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged. WvW Flame Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 25 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 18.75 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: high. Overcharge skill: Blind per Pulse: 2 sec - Duration: 5 sec - Radius: 240 - Combo Field: Smoke. Passive skill: Damage: 200 - Burning (2 sec): 262 Damage - Rate of Fire: 3 sec - Attack Range: 600. Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 25 seconds - Damage: 286 - Burning (4 sec): 524 Damage - Burning (2 sec): 262 Damage - Number of Targets: 5 - Pulses: 3 - Duration: 3 sec - Radius: 180 - Combo Field: Fire - Range: 900. Overcharge Damage: none. Passive Damage: high. Action Speed: fast. Duration: fixed. Range: short. Cooldown: medium. Survivability: high. Utility: low. Net Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Net Turret would function best with utility based skills, a short attack range, medium health, and a hybrid play-style. It needs more health to be viable in WvW. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged. WvW Net Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 30 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 22.5 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: medium. Overcharge skill: Immobilize (3 sec): Unable To Move - Stun (2 sec): Unable To Act. - Duration: 10 sec - Attack Range: 600 - Defiance Break: 200. Passive skill: Immobilize (2 sec): Unable To Move - Rate of Fire: 10 sec - Attack Range: 600. Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0 sec - Cooldown: 38 sec - Immobilize (3 sec): Unable to Move - Range: 600. Overcharge Damage: none. Passive Damage: none. Action Speed: slow. Duration: fixed. Range: short. Cooldown: long. Survivability: medium. Utility: low. Rocket Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Rocket Turret functions best as a long range, medium health turret which inflicts power damage and is designed around a hybrid play-style. I think it needs a shorter cooldown and more health to be viable in WvW. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged. WvW Rocket Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown 30 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 22.5 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: medium. Overcharge skill: Damage: 6 - Knockdown: 2 sec - Number of Targets: 1 - Rate of Fire: 4 sec - Duration: 4 sec - Radius: 360 - Attack Range: 1,000 - Explosion - Defiance Break: 200. Passive skill: Damage: 204 - Number of Targets: 5 - Rate of Fire: 4 sec - Radius: 240 - Attack Range: 1,000 - Explosion. Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0.5 - Cooldown: 25 sec - Damage: 919 - Number of Targets: 5 - Radius: 240 - Explosion - Range: 1,500. Overcharge Damage: none. Passive Damage: high. Action Speed: medium. Duration: fixed. Range: long. Cooldown: medium. Survivability: medium. Utility: low. Thumper Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Thumper Turret functions best as a melee, bunker turret which inflicts power damage and is designed around a sustained damage play-style. I think it needs a shorter cooldown and a small increase to its attack radius to better fit WvW game-play. I think the toolbelt skill needs small cooldown decrease and increase to the stability duration also the stability must be applied at the start of the skill. WvW Thumper Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 35 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 26.25 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: high. Overcharge skill: Damage: 6 - Launch: 400 - Number of Targets: 5 - Radius: 300 - Combo Finisher: Blast - Defiance Break: 232. Passive skill: Damage: 300 - Cripple (3 sec): -50 Movement Speed - Number of Targets: 5 - Rate of Fire: 3 sec - Radius: 300. Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0.25 sec - Cooldown: 32 sec - Damage: 100 - Stability (5 sec): Cannot be crowd controlled - Number of Targets: 5 - Breaks Stun - Combo Finisher: Blast - Range: 240. Overcharge Damage: none. Passive Damage: high. Action Speed: fast. Duration: fixed. Range: short. Cooldown: long. Survivability: high. Utility: medium. Note: The above proposed turret adjustments are for WvW only as that is my area of expertise, I have not proposed any changes to PvE or PvP turret skills as of writing this post. Please follow my example and come up with some PvE and PvP adjustments for any turrets you feel are under-powered, try to align them with the goal of this post. /// Trait Reworks /// As I mentioned above when I outlined the problems with turrets I think the old Deployable Turrets trait that was removed on June 23, 2015 should be brought back. Previously it was in the Tools trait line however I think it should replace the Bunker Down trait in Inventions. Deployable Turrets. Turret skills use ground targeting. — In-game description. *Turret Deployment Range: 1200 Animation: The turrets appear to fall out of the sky like Supply Crate and should last for 0.5 seconds. *Note: The wiki description was pretty vague so I needed to come up with some details for this proposed trait including where it should go and what the animation would be. Traits that do not function properly with turrets: Explosives Explosive Temper: hits from rocket turret don't apply stacks of explosive temper on the engineer (rocket turrets attacks are listed as explosives). Big Boomer: hits from rocket turret don't apply the healing portion of this trait on the engineer. Tools Lock On: CC from turrets (rocket turret overcharge, thumper turret overcharge, net turret overcharge) doesn't trigger controlled analysis, nor do hits from turrets on stealthed foes trigger invisible analysis. Takedown Round: hits from turrets don't put the charge down. Scrapper Expert Examination: net turret's stun (overcharge) does not apply weakness or vulnerability. System Shocker: CC from turrets (rocket turret overcharge, thumper turret overcharge, net turret overcharge) doesn't apply barrier on the scrapper. Impact Savant: hits from turrets don't apply barrier on the scrapper. Note: I have been unable to test if these traits are still broken and I am sure I've missed some. /// Future Turret Balance /// Below is a list of the different variables that can be tweaked during balance for different turrets based on the play-style the turret is designed for. Because skills are split between game-modes you wouldn't have to worry about making one turret be too oppressive in one, and too weak in another. The trick would be finding the correct balance for each turret, in each game-mode. Damage/Healing - Stat Scaling (Power Precision, Ferocity, Condition Damage, Expertise, Healing Power). Action Speed - Interval between attacks/heals. Duration - Placed Turret Duration. Range - Attack Range. Radius - Effect Radius. Cooldown - Turret Cooldown, Turret Pickup Cooldown. Survivablilty - Stat Scaling (Toughness, Vitality). Utility - Reflective Bubbles, Boons, Crowd Control (Soft/Hard), Combo Fields/Finishers, Condition Cleanse, Stat Scaling (Concentration). Note: Player Stats and Traits can effect turret Damage and Utility ratings so turrets would have to be balanced to account for them. /// Turret Play-Styles /// These are basic categories that help define the play-style of a turret, they are decided by its variables. Burst damage - High damage overcharge skill / Low damage passive skill. Hybrid damage - Medium damage overcharge skill / Medium damage passive skill. Sustained damage - Low damage overcharge skill / High damage passive skill. Glass cannon - Low survivability. Medium - Medium survivability. Bunker - High survivability. Melee - Very short range skills. Short range - Short range skills. Long range - Long range skills. Power - Primarily power based damage skills. Condition - Primarily condition based damage skills. Utility - Primarily Healing or Crowd Control based skills. Example: Healing Turret is currently a Glass, Melee, type turret focused on a Utility and Burst play-style. /// Q and A /// Q - Why bother writing about this issue when Anet is just going to continue to ignore it? A - Because if you want things to change persistence is key. Every request that is made is another reason for Anet to listen. Q - Won't buffing turrets just fuel the afk farmers? A - No, because buffing turrets doesn't give anything to afk farmers that they didn't already have access to. Q - Turrets could use some love, but if they were actually good wouldn't people who already hate the Mechanist just completely lose it and demand it to be nerffed immediately? A - They might, but why should that stop us from advocating for proper balance? Q - Won't turrets become oppressive in PvP and promote degenerative game-play such as bunkering on nodes? A - Not if they are balanced properly, I believe a happy medium exists between turrets being viable and oppressive. Q - Wouldn't the Mechanist Elite Specialization become super brain-dead and oppressive if turrets were buffed? A - Actually the Mechanist Elite Specialization would get the least benefit from using turrets because they lose access to the tool-belt skills and are already short on utility. Q - Doesn't adding more A. I. into the game make it more brain-dead? A - Turrets have very little A. I. they mostly follow a predefined rotation and only attack when in range, and no, I cannot see why it would. Q - Doesn't this "use once and then just low damage" idea go against the entire turret design philosophy? Wouldn't it be better to bring the old self activate overcharge back? A - Not according to the wiki, the only turret this would effect is the Rifle Turret so I think losing some of the original design is worth it in this case. And I don't think we need go quite so far as to bring back the old overcharge system. Q - Isn't the whole point of turrets to be used in a bunker-down play-style? If they have short duration's they might as well just be gyros at that point. A - I don't see any reason why turrets should inherently have a bunker-down type play-style, I think that is more decided by the individual turret. They would function differently from gyros with ranged placement and attacks. Q - Wouldn't turrets be worthless in WVW because of the huge blob fights with AoE being thrown everywhere? Even in a 1v1, what are you going to do when the enemy is an 1800 range soulbeast that simply kite your turrets? A - Turrets would be relatively ineffective in large group game-play which is to be expected due to combat mechanics, you have to remember that there are really two ways to play WvW, solo roaming/small group play and large group play. Many turrets have crowd control skills built into them and when turrets can be deployed at range this is not much of an issue. /// Contributions /// I would like to thank these people who have helped me form the basis of this post with their many thoughts, concerns, and questions. @White Kitsunee.4620, @Lily.1935, @BenaSPACE.6028, @Coolster.2536, @XenMaster.7165, @jinn.6392, @Bomboed.5697, @TheGPX.8130, @Kodama.6453, @Ghos.1326, @rdigeri.7935, @Dawdler.8521, @Lynx.905, @Liewec.2896. Special thanks to @Matoro.9708 who wrote a similar post on August 28, 2019 which gave me much insight into the situation. Edited August 25, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034 Word Clarification 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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