-300 Toughness is way too much, even for pve standards

[Zekent.3652]

Loosing 300 toughness to do AVERAGE dps, is way too much, no class has this tradeoff, willbender was about to get something like this, but was changed pretty fast.

And it's even worse for pvp, you get nothing really valuable for loosing so much toughness, used to make sense the first days, since arc divider damage on pvp was really good after the rework, but now, it's just an unnecessary rework that downgraded the spec, you just don't have good resources as berserk, and it's sad because if berserk was made nowadays, it could be probably be just better, clearly updated, the classic warrior spec on rpgs, they're supposed to be really good bruisers, not this undertuned thing, it's now even one of the most lacking condi dps specs, for pve and pvp.

[CaffeeCup.5742]

The amount of good chunk damage you have to work for on berserker, you can just triple tap on a bladesworn.

It's somehow allowed for others to teleport from behind walls or under the platforms, burst you to zero, which requires so little skill and game sense,  but when a berserker can successfully counter that with a good chain of cc and burst skills, requires hell of a lot more game sense, yet enemies will run away with  about 30% of their HP, unable to catch them as they teleport yet again through walls or platforms and reset in about 20 seconds.

Come on, let me punish these fools who's only game plan is to teleport 1-burst with my own counter 1-burst.

Power Berserker (Aug 2022), no home in pvp, no home in pve, relegated to RP class.

Edited August 27, 2022 by CaffeeCup.5742

[Myror.7521]

@Zizekent.2398 i found the minus 300 thougness okaish what made me more disapointet is the fact you get no burst skill outside of zerk Mode. This fact killed Berserker in pvp 

[Fueki.4753]

The post-PoF dework of Berserker was done with the explicit purpose of making it worse.

As much as the majority of Warrior mains would like it, I doubt they'll ever revert anything from that dework to make berserker fine again.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[eXruina.4956]

yeah, remove the -300 toughness, and shorten the cd on berserk mode please.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

At least give our normal F1 back when using berserker. When not in berserker mode, you're just a core warrior without a third trait line and without a burst.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

You guys really think Anet values skillful and rewarding gameplay when their philosophy is that "Complexity should not equate reward".

Lol

Edited August 28, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Lighter.5631]

45 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

You guys really think Anet values skillful and rewarding gameplay when their philosophy is that "Complexity should not equate reward".

Lol

yea that philosophy kept warrior relevant for so long lol

no wonder they kept making warrior elite spec that gets out-mechanic'ed and can only do melee dps for 3 times in a roll.

 

i wonder what happens now when they say they are switching their philosophy lol

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Lighter.5631 said:

yea that philosophy kept warrior relevant for so long lol

no wonder they kept making warrior elite spec that gets out-mechanic'ed and can only do melee dps for 3 times in a roll.

 

i wonder what happens now when they say they are switching their philosophy lol

 

They'll nerf Spellbreaker's damage even more and then give it aoe boons on FC to turn it into a support, but only if it procs, and it would be regeneration and might only rather than what Spellbreaker would need to function as a support.

[oscuro.9720]

The stat trade off on berserker is somewhat archaic as it is. It should really have a different structure, with only +stats attached to each GM to reinforce the trait impact. So if you assume a +200 stat increase, you can go;

Bloody Roar: +200 power 

King of Fires: +200 condition damage

Eternal Champion: +200 toughness

Just example stats, and are in addition to the traits current effects. Something like precision or ferocity, expertise, and vitality may work better, idk, the specific states/numbers are not the point, just the general idea. These are predicated on being in berserker mode obviously.
This creates the trade off of not getting the other possible stats when in berserker mode, instead of paying a penalty for a buff. Berserker already has numerous other trade offs, a hard penalty isn’t really what it needs in my opinion. 
You could than take Fatal Frenzy and rework it to provide, say, aoe quick on burst skill use or something, idk. It opens up an entire new slot to give berserker more utility, which it may or may not need. I’m not super familiar with berserker tbh. 
This is just an idea though.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

The stat trade off on berserker is somewhat archaic as it is. It should really have a different structure, with only +stats attached to each GM to reinforce the trait impact. So if you assume a +200 stat increase, you can go;

Bloody Roar: +200 power 

King of Fires: +200 condition damage

Eternal Champion: +200 toughness

Just example stats, and are in addition to the traits current effects. Something like precision or ferocity, expertise, and vitality may work better, idk, the specific states/numbers are not the point, just the general idea. These are predicated on being in berserker mode obviously.
This creates the trade off of not getting the other possible stats when in berserker mode, instead of paying a penalty for a buff. Berserker already has numerous other trade offs, a hard penalty isn’t really what it needs in my opinion. 
You could than take Fatal Frenzy and rework it to provide, say, aoe quick on burst skill use or something, idk. It opens up an entire new slot to give berserker more utility, which it may or may not need. I’m not super familiar with berserker tbh. 
This is just an idea though.

Make them 200 out of berserk mode and double that in berserk mode and then we can talk.

[oscuro.9720]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Make them 200 out of berserk mode and double that in berserk mode and then we can talk.

Perhaps. Im not super familiar with berserker, as I play it infrequently (I did have a 2 month stretch where I only played zerker, but that is nothing compared to my time on all other war specs). I don’t think the idea of loading up berserk is that bad if an idea. I think that part of the problem is that the requirements for entering berserk mode are extremely high, especially compared to other “mode”s on other specs. A full 30 adrenaline required plus a 15s CD makes the time you aren’t in berserk mode harder to bridge between uses of Berserk Mode. It would work much better if the gaps between berserk mode usage was smaller, at least in competitive mode, in my opinion. Then add in core bursts locked to 1 bar when not in berserk mode and you would, likely, have a more smooth playstyle that feels less gimpy during those longer down periods. Idk, this is solely my thoughts on mostly how berserker performs in roaming settings in WvW, so, as I said, it’s definitely not a complete opinion. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Give berserker pulsing resistance  in zerk mode to instantly fix it and make that -300 toughness worth it.

 

I'll take the fragility if it wasn't traded for easily blinded hits or had a 50% chance to be a burst, even if it connects, if you happen to have weakness on you.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Perhaps. Im not super familiar with berserker, as I play it infrequently (I did have a 2 month stretch where I only played zerker, but that is nothing compared to my time on all other war specs). I don’t think the idea of loading up berserk is that bad if an idea. I think that part of the problem is that the requirements for entering berserk mode are extremely high, especially compared to other “mode”s on other specs. A full 30 adrenaline required plus a 15s CD makes the time you aren’t in berserk mode harder to bridge between uses of Berserk Mode. It would work much better if the gaps between berserk mode usage was smaller, at least in competitive mode, in my opinion. Then add in core bursts locked to 1 bar when not in berserk mode and you would, likely, have a more smooth playstyle that feels less gimpy during those longer down periods. Idk, this is solely my thoughts on mostly how berserker performs in roaming settings in WvW, so, as I said, it’s definitely not a complete opinion. 

The biggest problem with Berserker is that so much is locked behind Berserk Mode without any benefit when out of Berserk Mode and when you are in it the -300 toughness is a STEEP penalty that no other class has to pay for their especs. Scrapper got a vitality nerf, but that got halved. Willbender got to pick it's negative stat tradeoff and the blue children whined until it got removed.

Here are some things that can realistically be done to modernize Berserker:

Burst of Aggression: Make these buffs refresh on hitting with a Primal Burst
Savage Instinct: Remove the Feel no Pain effect. Add in: Gain Protection, Resolution, and Resistance for 3s when entering Berserk Mode. Gain these boons for 1s when hitting with a Primal Burst.
Fatal Frenzy: Gain 150 Power and Condition Damage. This effect is doubled when in Berserk Mode.
Bloody Roar: Gain 12.5% increased damage. This effect is doubled in Berserk Mode.
King of Fires: Detonating the Fire Aura now strikes in a 240 radius around your target (this allows it to work at range)
Eternal Champion: Gain 150 Toughness, this bonus is doubled in Berserk Mode. Using a stun break grants 3 stacks of might for 5s and 2 stacks of stability for 2s to allies in the area. (This is just to give it some value to the team/zerg other than pure DPS).

 

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Give berserker pulsing resistance  in zerk mode to instantly fix it and make that -300 toughness worth it.

 

I'll take the fragility if it wasn't traded for easily blinded hits or had a 50% chance to be a burst, even if it connects, if you happen to have weakness on you.

And then there are simpler band aid fixes that address the issues while in Berserk Mode but don't solve the problems when outside Berserk Mode, namely that you are 2/3rds of a profession.

To be clear, for scrapper the negative vitality is balanced by the shear amount of barrier it can produce to cover it's vitality loss. The -300 toughness on warrior in exchange for +300 condition damage and +300 power is not an equivalent tradeoff. -300 toughness to gain Resistance on an interval when in Berserk Mode would be an equivalent tradeoff. Heck, other specs get to pulse quickness in an AoE in their DPS modes, so this wouldn't even be that strong in comparison.

[Katary.7096]

How about an effect simliar to what Untamed has, where the Berserker deals more damage while in Berserk mode and takes less damage while not in berserk mode? If nothing else, it would make it more likely that the Warrior is alive long enough to be able to get back into berserk...

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And then there are simpler band aid fixes that address the issues while in Berserk Mode but don't solve the problems when outside Berserk Mode, namely that you are 2/3rds of a profession.
 

I'm averse to suggesting buffs that alter PvE in the way above, since Zerk already kind of works there (or did before the banners). The skills team has the lion's share of the say for what gets through, and it may be difficult to get that infrastructure done since Zerk isn't critically broken in PvE anymore. It's my assumption that given the personnel changes, functionality might be sitting in a position where it may be difficult for people to own reworks, so tearing systems down (or introducing them across the board) may take humungous amounts of effort and introduce more problems than it solves.  Resistance may not be the most comprehensive fix, but it addresses a problem in PvP without largely affecting PvE.

 

Managing adrenaline up to that point is a tall order initially, but there are utilites you can opt to take that shorten that in exchange for taking up space on your bar. 

 

The same balance philosophy they attempted for Bladesworn at its core should apply here. Namely, if you have to wait to do damage, the damage is dodgeable, and the damage is heavily telegraphed, the damage should be insulated against factors that remove the punishment for people who don't dodge. 

 

It's so strange to me that they would ship bladesworn the way it is, perfectly justifying charging up a skill for several seconds (with an 8 second cooldown in between these, mind you) for it being unblockable and unblindable, but zerker has to get in combat long enough to hit 30 adrenaline (So actively doing damage to players long enough without dying) or spend a utility to just -get- access to its damaging attacks. Then, when zerkers meet that bar, the damage following that effort can be easily nullified for anyone it manages to hit because some guy in the distance shouted or A thief pressed any button after a dodge or looked at you funny, or A drake touched you with its tail.

 

I think all those skills have a place in the meta as they are, but I think its asking too much of Zerker given the circumstances with its current balancing. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

26 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm averse to suggesting buffs that alter PvE in the way above, since Zerk already kind of works there (or did before the banners). The skills team has the lion's share of the say for what gets through, and it may be difficult to get that infrastructure done since Zerk isn't critically broken in PvE anymore. It's my assumption that given the personnel changes, functionality might be sitting in a position where it may be difficult for people to own reworks, so tearing systems down (or introducing them across the board) may take humungous amounts of effort and introduce more problems than it solves.  Resistance may not be the most comprehensive fix, but it addresses a problem in PvP without largely affecting PvE.

 

Managing adrenaline up to that point is a tall order initially, but there are utilites you can opt to take that shorten that in exchange for taking up space on your bar. 

 

The same balance philosophy they attempted for Bladesworn at its core should apply here. Namely, if you have to wait to do damage, the damage is dodgeable, and the damage is heavily telegraphed, the damage should be insulated against factors that remove the punishment for people who don't dodge. 

 

It's so strange to me that they would ship bladesworn the way it is, perfectly justifying charging up a skill for several seconds (with an 8 second cooldown in between these, mind you) for it being unblockable and unblindable, but zerker has to get in combat long enough to hit 30 adrenaline (So actively doing damage to players long enough without dying) or spend a utility to just -get- access to its damaging attacks. Then, when zerkers meet that bar, the damage following that effort can be easily nullified for anyone it manages to hit because some guy in the distance shouted or A thief pressed any button after a dodge or looked at you funny, or A drake touched you with its tail.

 

I think all those skills have a place in the meta as they are, but I think its asking too much of Zerker given the circumstances with its current balancing. 

Nah, I feel you. Does Berserker need fundamental changes? Yes. Can some of that be addressed with more accessible Resistance. Also, yes.

Both can happen though. Both should happen.

[CaffeeCup.5742]

I personally rather not want another attrition warrior (bladesworn, core, spellbreaker).  If we get passive triggered resistance here and there I won't mind, but, I'd rather that if I have to work hard for my burst window, wade through all the condi crap, it better be worth instead.

Edited August 29, 2022 by CaffeeCup.5742

[anbujackson.9564]

Talking about PvE, the -300 toughness is the least of my worries (manual exit cough).

Or the painfully slow ramp up time on condi berserker. Make it more bursty.

Just gonna wait what they will do next to bring power berserker up. Hopefully not another +5% on bloody roar.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Top 2 changes:

1) reduce Berserk mode CD to 10s.

2) Burst of Aggression grants 1.5s resistance on burst use (incl entering berserk mode) in addition to its other effects

 

Honorable mention:

3) Make entering Berserk instant cast. Nothing more frustrating than having berserk mode put on CD (or worse, power blocked) because a random CC hit you in the 1/4s activation. 

 

4) rework Eternal Champion. My suggestion:

+300 toughness in Berserk

Gain stab when using a rage skill

Gain pulsing healing (250 HP/s) while in Berserk Mode

Edited August 29, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[SirDoNKeY.4578]

And make fast hands baseline please.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Burst of Aggression: Superspeed (3 sec), Quickness (3 sec), Resistance (3 sec). Activates on Berserk Mode entry/exit (No CD for those 2) and Primal Bursts with an interval of 6 sec. 

Dead or Alive: Ignore a lethal blow (40 sec) and gain 4k barrier. Blood Reckoning has an increased duration (8 seconds) and converts 66% of damage dealt to healing. 

Fatal Frenzy : Weakness is less effective on you (no endurance degen). While in Berserk Mode become immune to weakness.

Bloody Roar: Gain +100 power, triple the quantity in Berserk mode. Entering or Exiting (manually or not) Berserk mode Taunts foes (3 sec, 400 radius, 4 sec interval). 

King of Fires: Gain +100 condition damage, triple the stats in Berserk mode. Fire aura yadda yadda. 

Eternal Champion: Gain +100 Toughness, triple the stats in Berserk mode. Breaking stuns grants Stability (3 sec) and Protection (3 sec). 

Edit: Berserker gains an F2 to exit Berserk manually. Outside of Berserk mode the F2 can be clicked for 10 adrenaline.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Zekent.3652]

With a bit of copium and luck, maybe a dev will read this, and pretty sure they know about this issue lol.