Casual reminder.

[Ashgar.3024]

Power Holo still does less DPS than Power Mecanist despite being a fairly more difficult build, being melee and having a risk/reward factor tied to it.

 

From a pure logical PoV this looks a bit silly.

 

(On a sidenote Staff Daredevil is also underperforming).

 

 

[Kuma.1503]

Power Holo is barely above Scrapper even though Scrapper is generally the option with more durability/utility and less DPS. 

Speaking of which, Impact Savant should be buffed to 10% to match PvP/WvW

Holo needs some more aggressive bumps to get up to the ~38k range. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Noah Salazar.5430]

16 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Power Holo is barely above Scrapper even though Scrapper is generally the option with more durability/utility and less DPS. 

Speaking of which, Impact Savant should be buffed to 10% to match PvP/WvW

Holo needs some more aggressive bumps to get up to the ~38k range. 

5% is fine and balanced atm on end game content as your having max hp barrier most time even on qdps

old 15% on 30k dps is now 5% on 35k dps in terms of value

ppl have more problem with it on open word as thay builds are not optimalized to solo 25might

 

and yes holo schold back to 37k dps, as Spectrum Shield is rarly used by players, and holo hurting himself from overheat

Edited September 3, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[anbujackson.9564]

And not just sword please.

If I see only sword buffs in the next patch to improve holo I am going to cry. You got trait options.

[Infusion.7149]

Rifle power mechanist should be altered such that just camping auto doesn't put out as much damage honestly. Until that happens I don't see holosmith being used at all in PVE as there is little advantage to the harder rotation (that goes for if you use rifle or sword). Maybe rifle could have heat tiers added to the blunderbuss (2 skill) or the Solar Focusing Lens + PBM (Photonic Blasting Module) interaction can be improved so that rifle holo is actually competitive again. I don't see how Arenanet can make up for upwards of 7K DPS or more from the mech auto-ing away without adding heat tiers to rifle , altering PBM/SFL, or altering Aim assisted rocket.

In my opinion: Power = holo  , alac /  barrier and condi = mech, quick = scrapper . If that design is upheld it would be better for the game overall as people have easier power DPS options already. For the longest time holo was overshadowed by soulbeast due to frost spirit and now it's just completely irrelevant for the most part outside of competitive modes (where losing all movement conditions and converting conditions into boons is helpful).

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Rifle power mechanist should be altered such that just camping auto doesn't put out as much damage honestly. Until that happens I don't see holosmith being used at all in PVE as there is little advantage to the harder rotation (that goes for if you use rifle or sword). Maybe rifle could have heat tiers added to the blunderbuss (2 skill) or the Solar Focusing Lens + PBM (Photonic Blasting Module) interaction can be improved so that rifle holo is actually competitive again. I don't see how Arenanet can make up for upwards of 7K DPS or more from the mech auto-ing away without adding heat tiers to rifle , altering PBM/SFL, or altering Aim assisted rocket.

In my opinion: Power = holo  , alac /  barrier and condi = mech, quick = scrapper . If that design is upheld it would be better for the game overall as people have easier power DPS options already. For the longest time holo was overshadowed by soulbeast due to frost spirit and now it's just completely irrelevant for the most part outside of competitive modes (where losing all movement conditions and converting conditions into boons is helpful).

Adding heat teirs to core weapons is my dream for holo. It would potentially open up so many builds, including P/P condi. 

[Ashgar.3024]

On 9/3/2022 at 2:29 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

In my opinion: Power = holo  , alac /  barrier and condi = mech, quick = scrapper .

Imo Holo should also have a viable Condi (Burn+Bleeding) or at least hybrid variation being a pure DPS spec and all. I messed around with Burn Holo and its actually pretty fun mechanically, numbers just aren't there. 

Mec and Scrapper being primarily 2 different flavors of boon and heal supports would be fine by me. Its easily the most fun/interactive variations of these Elites and rounds out Engi as the "swiss army knife" Profession of the game really well.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Stalima.5490]

why is this a problem? Mechanist is far more specialised into respective roles than holo builds due to the mechanist traitline being very 1-dimensional.

If you max dps as a mechanist you get basically nothing but damage, if you max dps as a holo you get additional boons and other useful abilities, in this regard, the holo should be doing less damage than the mechanist.

[Ashgar.3024]

13 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

If you max dps as a mechanist you get basically nothing but damage, if you max dps as a holo you get additional boons and other useful abilities, in this regard, the holo should be doing less damage than the mechanist.

 

Gonna go on a limb here and say you never stepped into a Raid. You need to be able to hyperspecialize into a specific role to be of any use in that content.

 

 

Besides its not like pure DPS Mec doesn't generate a ton of Might, Fury and even its own Quickness, on top of having constant self-healing ticking on himself, the most overloaded movement ability in the game (Shift Signet) and huge amount of CC (Rifle 3+Rocket Punch autoproc and Rifle 4).

 

Its not a massive coincidence that in about any Strike or Raid pug you can join there's usually 6-7 Mec players while playing Holo in that content is borderline considered griefing.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Stalima.5490]

6 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

 

Gonna go on a limb here and say you never stepped into a Raid. You need to be able to hyperspecialize into a specific role to be of any use in that content.

 

 

Besides its not like pure DPS Mec doesn't generate a ton of Might, Fury and even its own Quickness, on top of having constant self-healing ticking on himself, the most overloaded movement ability in the game (Shift Signet) and huge amount of CC (Rifle 3+Rocket Punch autoproc and Rifle 4).

 

Its not a massive coincidence that in about any Strike or Raid pug you can join there's usually 6-7 Mec players while playing Holo in that content is borderline considered griefing.

This is like complaining that spellbreaker does less damage than berserker on warrior...

[Ashgar.3024]

What?

 

If anything Mec should be closer to Spellbreaker than Berserker in your example. It has the utility tools while the main purpose of Holo is Damage, just like Berserker (and even then Berserker is better off now as it can also provide Quickness).

 

It can't heal support, it doesn't boon support either. Yes it can selfishly maintain Might, Fury, Prot, Vigor and Regen on itself if built for it in PvP or Open World but there's a reason you never see anyone run Hard Light Arena, Spectrum Shield or the Alchemy traitline when playing as a DPS in a raid, cause all of this is utterly useless when you have a dedicated healer in your squad.

 

A spec having Solo/PvP play tools doesn't make it a support spec lol.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Stalima.5490]

8 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

What?

 

If anything Mec should be closer to Spellbreaker than Berserker in your example. It has the utility tools while the main purpose of Holo is Damage.

 

It can't heal support, it doesn't boon support either. Yes it can selfishly maintain Prot, Vigor, Regen on itself if built for it in PvP or Open World but there's a reason you never see anyone run Hard Light Arena, Spectrum Shield or the Alchemy traitline when playing as a DPS in a raid, cause all of this is utterly useless when you have a dedicated healer in your squad.

 

A spec having Solo/PvP play tools doesn't make it a support spec lol.

 

You need to accept that holo is far more versatile than the rigid mechanist so should not be fighting it for top dps spot, there are not a lot of realistic options for individual mechanist builds to cross over.

[Ashgar.3024]

Just now, Stalima.5490 said:

 

You need to accept that holo is far more versatile than the rigid mechanist so should not be fighting it for top dps spot, there are not a lot of realistic options for individual mechanist builds to cross over.

And you need to accept Mecanist is the most unhealthy spec for the game right now and needs tweaking.

 

Its not even nearly as rigid as you make it sound anyway, i routinely play Power Alac Mecanist and it still does great DPS despite using Support Mec traits.

 

That build is even encouraged by Snowcrows so its not like its some weird niche homebrew either.

 

https://snowcrows.com/builds/engineer/mechanist/power-alacrity-mechanist

[Stalima.5490]

But that isn't the build you are competing with so how is that relevant?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

You need to accept that holo is far more versatile than the rigid mechanist so should not be fighting it for top dps spot, there are not a lot of realistic options for individual mechanist builds to cross over.

Rifle Mech and Holo are both selfish, but both versatile because they have core engi at their base.  We are not Specter, Scourge, FB, Renegade, or even Soulbeast. Our utility isn't noteworthy enough that squads bother to build around it. So in practice Holo ends up being pure selfish DPS but we are pure dps that can adapt to any situation you put us in.

Ideally, I'd buff Holo sliiightly above Soulbeast in the 38-38.5k range since its more reliant on melee DPS and its utility is slightly worse.

Power Rifle Mech also doesn't have the best utility aside from Barrier Signet, so that should be taken into consideration when balancing it. It should have its performance slightly reduced due to its reliable DPS uptime. The bot will always keep on pumping even while the engi is doing mechanics or incapacitated. This is the main issue people have with it.  I'd lower it down to around 34-35k. 

Comfortably below below Power Virtuoso and Condi harbinger and in line with scourge. 

Then I'd start bringing up the other underperformers like Reaper, Spellbreaker ("PvP specs" are a scam. This almost always translates to just "bad" since when things overperform in PvP, PvP spec or not, they get nerfed like anyone else. Scrapper was evidence of that before quickness rework) also address Catalyst's "meta-defining" nerfs, and evaluate from there. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Infusion.7149]

There is nothing really rigid about rifle mechanist in PVE especially when run on rifle which raises your prospective scholar uptime massively compared to PBM holo.

No autocast mech skills:

The above benchmarks by Microhard were before the big boomer change from 10 to 15% on August 23 as the video is dated August 3.

If you look at the damage breakdown, ~12K DPS is from the Mech alone and ~16K from rifle. Is 16K from a 1200 ranged weapon high? It's relatively high yes (it ought to be closer to something like 10-13K but Arenanet is pushing ranged weapons higher and higher) but this is on a 10 condition target however. In my own testing the Mech does around 8K DPS without food/utility and only 25 vuln preapplied on the target (Modified Ammunition is 2% per condition). If Mechanist is supposed to be 33-35K as a DPS spec total, 8-12K means it is around 25-35% of total DPS which is extremely high considering what pets do.

Let's not forget the mech does have boon output, Arenanet changed No Scope to apply fury to other people as well as adding might output on Rifle Blunderbuss. That's not even counting CC bar damage and the low intensity version runs throw mine which removes boons and does CC.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Ghos.1326]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:55 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

Power Holo is barely above Scrapper even though Scrapper is generally the option with more durability/utility and less DPS. 

Speaking of which, Impact Savant should be buffed to 10% to match PvP/WvW

Holo needs some more aggressive bumps to get up to the ~38k range. 

Honestly, what I would like to see, since Scrapper was *supposed* to be the elite spec that was all about tanking and damage reduction, is make Impact Savant grant 300 toughness at the loss of that HP. Though I know they won't, because they want barrier to be the new damage mitigation mechanic.

Just an old soul reminiscing about the old scrapper days where it actually focused on direct damage mitigation with some healing tied to it (ironically when inventions was better as well due to it having some kind of regeneration inside of the trait line). RIP.

[Stalima.5490]

43 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Let's not forget the mech does have boon output, Arenanet changed No Scope to apply fury to other people as well as adding might output on Rifle Blunderbuss. That's not even counting CC bar damage and the low intensity version runs throw mine which removes boons and does CC.

im pretty sure holo just takes no scope aswell which makes that a non-factor for holo vs mecha

I mean it's not like you need to do much as holo either:

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

im pretty sure holo just takes no scope aswell which makes that a non-factor for holo vs mecha

I mean it's not like you need to do much as holo either:

 

 

DPS uptime. Also that benchmark uses skills and PF, it isn't auto attacking exclusively.

The build doesn't have as much DPS anymore since that benchmark is dated April (i.e. before the banner / spirit changes).

Edited September 5, 2022 by Infusion.7149
also it is not even after the banner changes

[Bizgurk.5639]

16 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Honestly, what I would like to see, since Scrapper was *supposed* to be the elite spec that was all about tanking and damage reduction, is make Impact Savant grant 300 toughness at the loss of that HP.

They won't grant any profession traited toughness ever again. It interferes with boss tanking mechanics which is why they removed nearly all toughness from traits.

[anbujackson.9564]

19 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

You need to accept that holo is far more versatile than the rigid mechanist so should not be fighting it for top dps spot, there are not a lot of realistic options for individual mechanist builds to cross over.

Calling holo more versatile is really stretching it for me. You choose between ESCU/PBM (more sustained vs more burst) and thats pretty much it? The mid tier is basically useless for power holo. You got only one choice in adept. 

Mech abilities and signets are so broken that these alone make it already more versatile. You dont need to take grenades, so you can take any other utility you want. 

Both holo versions need to be 100% melee. Both have to manage heat in their own way. What is there to manage on mech? Not falling asleep? How can you even say with a straight face that mech should be top dps.

[Stx.4857]

Lol at holo being more versatile than mechanist.  

 

Power holo and power mech are both dps specs.  But mech is ranged and is much easier to play.  Holo should ideally do about 10% more damage I would say.

[Wolfshade.9251]

That's the reason why I switched to power scrapper as my main dps spec over holo. I refuse to play mechanist out of principle. Which doesn't mean that I don't try to dps race them on a scrapper - makes those rare victories even more satisfying.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

On 9/4/2022 at 9:18 PM, Stalima.5490 said:

If you max dps as a mechanist you get basically nothing but damage, if you max dps as a holo you get additional boons and other useful abilities, in this regard, the holo should be doing less damage than the mechanist.

At present, the meta build for Power Mechanist takes:
- a 1200 range instant cast teleport with a low cooldown that also gives you bonus movement speed when off cooldown

- a decent bit of self-quickness uptime from your GM trait (useful for when boon supports are slacking/dead)

- 230 healing for every second of the fight that your heal skill is off cooldown (this is significantly stronger than Heat Therapy on Holo)

- a bit of group might

 

Conversely, the meta build for holosmith (sword) gets:

- Boon rip (only on some fights, and only actually useful on even fewer)

- Less self-quickness than Mechanist (from sword 3)

- Less healing from Heat Therapy and effective healing from the barrier of Corona burst than Mech has

- Less group might than mechanist (blunderbuss is more spammable than corona burst, since there's no lockout mechanic)

 

The non-DPS tools that DPS Mechanist brings are, quite simply, stronger or usable in more situations than on Holosmith. When you combine this with the fact that holo loses DPS uptime at range while mech doesn't (a fact which matters on all bosses, but especially on the EoD strike CMs), Mech is pretty much flatly better.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 9/4/2022 at 10:56 PM, Stalima.5490 said:

 

You need to accept that holo is far more versatile than the rigid mechanist so should not be fighting it for top dps spot, there are not a lot of realistic options for individual mechanist builds to cross over.

Please explain. How is holo more versatile than mech? Because you know the dps build is fully ranged with a ton of utility and self boons. What kind of versatility does holo bring? It cant really range, it does not have a blink and it cant really do anything besides melee dps.

Your only nice support skill which mech can not take is hardlight arena. Some aoe fury and prot. Thats some S tier versatility right there.

Im not even sure anymore if all the mech defenders are just trolling or serious. Rifle mech is one of the most versatile dps builds in the game. Thats why its played everywhere and why it is such a problem. It can also bring its own boons and aoe might + fury + tons of cc. You could full clear raids with 8 mechs + 2 fb within less than 2h. Have fun doing that with holos. Even if you only take dps holos you would need special strategies for some encounters like qtp kiters. Mech can do that in its basic dps build. But sure holo is the versatile spec..