Can we scale back wvw legendary armor requirements?

[Endilbiach.4132]

4 minutes ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

I am still on page 1 of this perplexing thread but had to quote this part. Does the OP want legendary armor? If they do why aren't they raiding for it as they say that it is much easier, cheaper and faster.

 

Is somebody trying to get legendary level gear with bargain bin effort?

 

Because I hate, on a principle level, the idea of content other than skins and achievements (basically bragging rights) being locked behind 10 man raids.

I also hate raids, but that's a secondary and personal point.  I will admit that that is the reason I haven't done it, but it's not the reason I want some changes made.

Also, if you're on page one, buckle up.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Endilbiach.4132

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

4 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Because I hate, on a principle level, the idea of content other than skins and achievements (basically bragging rights) being locked behind 10 man raids.

I also hate raids, but that's a secondary and personal point.  I will admit that that is the reason I haven't done it, but it's not the reason I want some changes made.

I was not a fan of that stuff being behind raids either, as I also hate raids. That being said I still closed the door on doing raids myself (the achievements drove me nuts as I was an achievement freak). I just went with ascended and 2-3 of my more played chars had a 2nd set, then a couple years later they had wvw legendary but I still didn't bother with it, until my chara started getting a 3rd set of ascended on some and I realized I had tickets for a set(usually would complete gold each week).

 

About changes, they already flattened the ticket curve AND increased the pips based on server placement in the first year of tickets(possibly start of the 2nd) to make it easier for the people complaining then. Last year they got rid of the +5 for outnumbered and even gave another +1 for each rank instead of non bronze getting nothing.

 

How much easier does it need to become? Wvw can be played at any time, by yourself or with a group. Have no healers? No problem, you don't even need to be comped to succeed in participation. You could have been working on your pips all while posting on this thread even and made decent progress while talking about it. The wvw method really only takes time, and if you don't have even that, it becomes more of a personal problem and not the game's problem, sorry.

[Endilbiach.4132]

10 minutes ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

About changes, they already flattened the ticket curve AND increased the pips based on server placement in the first year of tickets(possibly start of the 2nd) to make it easier for the people complaining then. Last year they got rid of the +5 for outnumbered and even gave another +1 for each rank instead of non bronze getting nothing.

Tickets are still incredibly backloaded, so anyone who can't finish at least mithril track each week is in for a bad time trying to make wvw legendaries.

I made the mistake of making Warbringer, instead of just nutting up and doing the fractal achievements for Ad Infinium.  2800 skirmish tickets...good gods...that's a full suit of precursors including finishing one legendary with 400-500 tickets left over...I think I hate myself.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Or... you know, leave it around what it is now in regards of legendary rewards so people that are actually playing the mode can still earn them, while the people refusing to learn the game's mechanics won't flock to the wvw in order to easly/quickly semi-afk their way into leggies they -for some reason- keep claiming are somehow crucial to playing their game when that's obviously not true.

I don't read the forum enough to know who is saying it is crucial.  It obviously isn't.  I haven't seen it in this thread, so let's stick to that.  That said, I think people are already coming into WvW for that reason, and a lot of my point in this thread is that if you just reduce the tickets required, without adding a PvE alternative, that will increase.

 

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If someone's goal really is to boost overal rewards in wvw then the answert doesn't need to be based on increasing of currency acquisition, you can balance the exchange prices/rates along with adding new items for exchange (or... you know, reward tracks), leaving long term rewards out of it. But that sure is only a viable solution if people saying "they worry/care about wvw players' rewards" actually think that and not just use it as a way to get easier/faster path to the long term goals.

Again, I don't know who these posters are, or what they're actually thinking.  I know what I've posted, and what I think, so I'll again stick to that.

 

I'm not sure this solution works, because the long term rewards likely would operate on the same currencies as the others.  Therefore simply making other stuff cheaper doesn't really alleviate it because people will be reluctant to spend the currencies they've saved up on anything other than their long term goal.

 

This is especially a problem with the Skirmish tickets, because even say a 400 ticket cost on an item (pretty cheap I'd say, depending on what it is) adds more than a week to the legendary grind you need to catch up.

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not really, that sure is a ""reason"" some people like to use on this forum, but the groups (including training/low req/no req) are available in lfg pretty consistently. Creating a group is also a rather easy solution for "not having a group for me". The main obstacle is that people don't want to learn the encounters and just want to instantly succeed to zoom to the rewards. And it's additionally shown by the posts/threads first claiming "it's not about the effort/time at all and they're fine with it taking long amount of time", but then pivoting into another post/thread about "it taking too long, make it faster". And yes, that is a repeating theme between/within these threads.

Again, again, I don't know who these people are, or what they think.  I know I have no issue with learning mechanics, but specifically have issue with having to find groups that are available at specific times, I may have to bail on mid encounter, and would need to put up with me learning the fights and possibly wiping them.

 

Personally I'd love raid level single player content, with similar rewards.  But that isn't going to happen.

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Tickets are still incredibly backloaded, so anyone who can't finish at least mithril track each week is in for a bad time trying to make wvw legendaries.

I made the mistake of making Warbringer, instead of just nutting up and doing the fractal achievements for Ad Infinium.  2800 skirmish tickets...good gods...that's a full suit of precursors including finishing one legendary with 400-500 tickets left over...I think I hate myself.

 

The amount of missed tickets is exactly 17 and by the time one hits gold (finishind Silver) you have the average ticket acquisition. I did the math a few days ago in the WvW forum.

 

In short: the first 390 pips (Wood, Bronze and Silver) have 17 tickets less than the final 630 pips (Mithril and Diamond) which have an additonal 17 tickets above average (average being gold chest with 0.25 tickets per pip).

 

It's certainly not nothing but it's also not as game breaking as people make it out to be.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[yourexcellency.1458]

As someone who has all 3 weight classes of wvw legendary armor, Warbringer and 2 Conflux I didn't mind at the amount of time it took.  I was just playing the game mode I enjoy.  What I do mind is that there is no achievements (ap) and also it would be nice to have an upgraded skin similar to pve.

[Endilbiach.4132]

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

The amount of missed tickets is exactly 17 and by the time one hits gold (finishind Silver) you have the average ticket acquisition. I did the math a few days ago in the WvW forum.

 

In short: the first 390 pips (Wood, Bronze and Silver) have 17 tickets less than the final 630 pips (Mithril and Diamond) which have an additonal 17 tickets above average (average being gold chest with 0.25 tickets per pip).

 

It's certainly not nothing but it's also not as game breaking as people make it out to be.

At that rate you're stilling looking at something like 43-44 weeks to finish a single suit of armor, which regardless of game mode feels WAAAAAAY too long.  I made a full set of 7 legendary runes in something like 6 months tops of very casual play, which I feel like is a good pace for a full suit of legendaries.  Weapons are non-comparable and trinkets/back are...weird.  If I had seriously, seriously pushed myself I probably could have gotten those runes done inside of a month.

[yoni.7015]

7 minutes ago, yourexcellency.1458 said:

As someone who has all 3 weight classes of wvw legendary armor, Warbringer and 2 Conflux I didn't mind at the amount of time it took.  I was just playing the game mode I enjoy.  What I do mind is that there is no achievements (ap) and also it would be nice to have an upgraded skin similar to pve.

Exactly. The WvW legendary armor is primarily meant for WvW players and not for PvE players that refuse to raid and then complain about the amount of time they have to spend in WvW. If you enjoy the game mode, it doesn’t really feel like a grind. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Endilbiach.4132]

3 minutes ago, yourexcellency.1458 said:

As someone who has all 3 weight classes of wvw legendary armor, Warbringer and 2 Conflux I didn't mind at the amount of time it took.  I was just playing the game mode I enjoy.  What I do mind is that there is no achievements (ap) and also it would be nice to have an upgraded skin similar to pve.

I have to point out that your opinion on the rate of acquisition is going to be biased if that's your primary game mode, but I absolutely agree with you on the matter of achievements and skins.  But then, as I've stated previously in this thread, Anet hates wvw.

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

I have to point out that your opinion on the rate of acquisition is going to be biased if that's your primary game mode, but I absolutely agree with you on the matter of achievements and skins.  But then, as I've stated previously in this thread, Anet hates wvw.

Why is it biased? Because it’s a different opinion than yours? 

[Endilbiach.4132]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

Why is it biased? Because it’s a different opinion than yours? 

Not at all, it's because it's your primary game mode so your experience with its reward structures is going to be different.  Imagine if, comparatively, I was a person who did nothing but legendary bounty trains as my primary game mode for years.  To me, 3000 Elegy Mosaics would be nothing, but to your average player that is an utterly insane amount.

I never said biased was bad or wrong, I simply meant that your opinion is coming from a set of experiences that heavily influences your viewpoint.

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Not at all, it's because it's your primary game mode so your experience with its reward structures is going to be different.  Imagine if, comparatively, I was a person who did nothing but legendary bounty trains as my primary game mode for years.  To me, 3000 Elegy Mosaics would be nothing, but to your average player that is an utterly insane amount.

I never said biased was bad or wrong, I simply meant that your opinion is coming from a set of experiences that heavily influences your viewpoint.

Ok I understand. The WvW legendary armor is primarily meant for WvW players and a lot of WvW players here told you, that the rate of acquisition is fine. Then I don’t see the problem. 

[Endilbiach.4132]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

Ok I understand. The WvW legendary armor is primarily meant for WvW players and a lot of WvW players here told you, that the rate of acquisition is fine. Then I don’t see the problem. 

Maybe that's what it is intended as.  If it is I think that's a core design mistake.  I'd like to see it as an incentive to join and try wvw, rather than a reward for the people who already enjoy it.  I said earlier that I think the rate of acquisition for raid armor is at a good place, because it can act as an incentive for players to try raids.  I'd say that the current 'reward' for playing wvw on a long term basis should be Warbringer, but that is an absolutely cursed skin.  Worst looking legendary backpiece in the game (imo).

The fact that Envoy is the only pve legendary armor and it's locked behind 10 man content is a different problem, and I do mean problem.  Lock skins behind that content.  Titles, achievements, mini's, whatever you want, but legendary armor is gameplay altering and shouldn't be locked behind this level of content commitment in my opinion.

Also to be clear: I actually really enjoy wvw (on weeks where I'm not paired against Maguuma and Spygate...I mean Blackgate, at the same time).  However I cannot play the game mode to the extent necessary to even attempt to make legendary armor.

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Maybe that's what it is intended as.  If it is I think that's a core design mistake.  I'd like to see it as an incentive to join and try wvw, rather than a reward for the people who already enjoy it.  I said earlier that I think the rate of acquisition for raid armor is at a good place, because it can act as an incentive for players to try raids.  I'd say that the current 'reward' for playing wvw on a long term basis should be Warbringer, but that is an absolutely cursed skin.  Worst looking legendary backpiece in the game (imo).

The fact that Envoy is the only pve legendary armor and it's locked behind 10 man content is a different problem, and I do mean problem.  Lock skins behind that content.  Titles, achievements, mini's, whatever you want, but legendary armor is gameplay altering and shouldn't be locked behind this level of content commitment in my opinion.

Also to be clear: I actually really enjoy wvw (on weeks where I'm not paired against Maguuma and Spygate...I mean Blackgate, at the same time).  However I cannot play the game mode to the extent necessary to even attempt to make legendary armor.

I disagree completely. But I disagree the most about Warbringer. It is by far the best backpack skin in the game 🙂 

The legendary armor is meant as a long term reward. The raid armor for PvE players, the WvW armor for players that play WvW and the PvP armor for the players that like to play PvP. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Endilbiach.4132]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I disagree completely. But I disagree the most about Warbringer. It is by far the best backpack skin in the game 🙂 

The legendary armor is meant as a long term reward. The raid armor for PvE players, the WvW armor for players that play WvW and the PvP armor for the players that like to play PvP. 

So nothing for people who enjoy open world content?  By those standards, open world should have its own legendary armor set.  If it's an incentive to get players to try to new game modes, it makes more sense to have it be more reasonable to get.  If it's meant as a long term reward, then open world/dungeons/fractals should get their own set(s).

I also think that wvw, raids, and pvp all deserve to have their own routes to full sets of legendary jewelry.  Open world needs rings.  Basically you should be able to get a full set of legendaries from your content no matter what that content is. (Weapons get weird admittedly, with the GoB and Gift of Exploration/equivalents both being required.)

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

So nothing for people who enjoy open world content?  By those standards, open world should have its own legendary armor set.  If it's an incentive to get players to try to new game modes, it makes more sense to have it be more reasonable to get.  If it's meant as a long term reward, then open world/dungeons/fractals should get their own set(s).

I also think that wvw, raids, and pvp all deserve to have their own routes to full sets of legendary jewelry.  Open world needs rings.  Basically you should be able to get a full set of legendaries from your content no matter what that content is. (Weapons get weird admittedly, with the GoB and Gift of Exploration/equivalents both being required.)

No. Open World, dungeons and fractals are all part of PvE and there is a PvE set already.
There are three game modes in the game and every game mode has its own legendary armor set. 
But I had this discussion too often here and I am not going to repeat it.

 

[Endilbiach.4132]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

No. Open World, dungeons and fractals are all part of PvE and there is a PvE set already.
There are three game modes in the game and every game mode has its own legendary armor set. 
But I had this discussion too often here and I am not going to repeat it.

 

I'd argue there are 4, with all 10 man instanced content being its own, but you're right about that particular conversation happening too many times.

How would you feel about frontloading skirmish tickets on the pips track, and as compensation increasing the monetary value and other rewards of the later tracks?

[yourexcellency.1458]

50 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

I have to point out that your opinion on the rate of acquisition is going to be biased if that's your primary game mode, but I absolutely agree with you on the matter of achievements and skins.  But then, as I've stated previously in this thread, Anet hates wvw.

Time flies when you're having fun I guess.

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

How would you feel about frontloading skirmish tickets on the pips track, and as compensation increasing the monetary value and other rewards of the later tracks?

I actually don’t care and I don’t have a real opinion about that, but I guess I wouldn’t mind. I have no use for the skirmish tickets because I am full legendary. I think WvW rewards should be better. But then again, I mainly play WvW because it’s fun and I don’t care that much about rewards. 

[Endilbiach.4132]

Just now, yourexcellency.1458 said:

Time flies when you're having fun I guess.

Explains how I wound up with the 2800 skirmish tickets needed to make Warbringer.  Mind you that was over the course of literally years, which still goes back to my original point.

[yourexcellency.1458]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I actually don’t care and I don’t have a real opinion about that, but I guess I wouldn’t mind. I have no use for the skirmish tickets because I am full legendary. I think WvW rewards should be better. But then again, I mainly play WvW because it’s fun and I don’t care that much about rewards. 

It would be nice to have some better rewards. As someone who tends to play support the compensation for time spent can feel lacking. 

[yoni.7015]

Just now, yourexcellency.1458 said:

It would be nice to have some better rewards. As someone who tends to play support the compensation for time spent can feel lacking. 

I know, I play support firebrand in WvW and you get a lot more bags when you play DPS.
So yeah, the rewards should be better. 

[Endilbiach.4132]

2 minutes ago, yourexcellency.1458 said:

It would be nice to have some better rewards. As someone who tends to play support the compensation for time spent can feel lacking. 

I play support or roaming, so naturally I'm a damned dirty engineer, and I've watched the skirmish rewards for a while and somehow it feels like the participation reward tracks are better than the skirmish ones, which is weird.

[TheGrimm.5624]

No, the time frame is fine. These are long time goals and are meant to be long term goals. 22 weeks is not that long when you are playing the game mode. They already reduced the required ranks on the second set a while back dropping it from rank 2000 down to 500 I think it was. The armory did add more value in Leggo armor especially if you run more alts but before most people were fine with just ascended sets and swapping them back and fourth. Now that more people want to also build it doesn't mean it shouldn't be a long term goal. It's meant to be an as you go achievement to work towards. That's a good thing, we want people to have goals and not just go finish in a week and then come back and say, what's next. As others have said, the longer time requirements just adds more value on the gear and getting it. Not opposed to people asking for it, but no would prefer maybe instead of lowering the requirement there are additional ways to earn them. Maybe build into the new reward update other goal orientated objectives that people can opt-for that are WvW focused. Before WvW had leggo gear the discuss on the forums was people were ok with it taking longer and not having the same skin because WvW players wanted a way to get them and we were ok if the answer to that was it would take longer and wouldn't have the same skin. Two forums ago said I was ok with that as well and still hold to the thought. Going back now and saying no lets just drop that take longer requirement and make it as fast as the raids, no thanks it was a good compromise just to get an option for Leggo gear, will stick to the previous deal.  

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I don't read the forum enough to know who is saying it is crucial.  It obviously isn't.  I haven't seen it in this thread, so let's stick to that.  That said, I think people are already coming into WvW for that reason, and a lot of my point in this thread is that if you just reduce the tickets required, without adding a PvE alternative, that will increase.

If people are already comming into wvw for that reason then it seems to be doing ok? Make that acquisition faster and chances are people will come there specifically to semi-afk through the ticket acquisition. Right now at the very least chances are they'd bore themselves to -figurative- death, which might as well push them into actively participating in the content. And in the end if there's a goal connected to bringing people in, it's the active participation and not fastest/easiest/most convenient/passive reward acquisition since that does nothing.

2 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I'm not sure this solution works, because the long term rewards likely would operate on the same currencies as the others.  Therefore simply making other stuff cheaper doesn't really alleviate it because people will be reluctant to spend the currencies they've saved up on anything other than their long term goal.

This is especially a problem with the Skirmish tickets, because even say a 400 ticket cost on an item (pretty cheap I'd say, depending on what it is) adds more than a week to the legendary grind you need to catch up.

Some people try to build -imo a blatantly dishonest one- an argument about "acquiring tickets faster" (..because they want leggy specifically) on the backs of some of the "improve wvw reward system" complaints. Improving reward system in wvw between wvw participants is rarely based on an easier leggy acquisition. So yes, if the target is to make the wvw content more rewarding then that is the answer. Otherwise it's a false reasoning looking to latch onto a different discussion in order to get what those few people want (which is grab the leggies easiest/fastest way and not care about the actual reward system of wvw).

There was also this part in my post: (or... you know, reward tracks)

Overally people not interested in actual reward system of the gamemode should stop pretending that's their reasoning, when it's rather clear what they're specifically targetting here. As a reminder, in case you've missed it, OP already said he's fine with substituting effort with time in the past. So now he started going for it in a wvw (which is perfectly fine) except... Now the longer time is not acceptable and he keeps comparing it directly to said higher effort route. All it is, is a constant bargaining about making it easier/faster, no matter what.