What are we losing by keeping the game PEGI 13+?

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, mercury ranique.2170 said:

1: I'm form the netherlands and my wife is Scottish. When she speaks in english she swears alot, just as her mom did, and her scottish family does. This doesnt mean she does the same in dutch. She knows that it is a difference culture, but the load of these words are even different between those two countries.

2: I was reprimanded once to use a word that describes the feces of a male cow. To me this is a very normal word. But what I did not know was that it is percieved much more violent and epxressive by people from other cultures.

Pretty much how I got my only strike here as well, when all I did was point out another user's comments were pretty intolerant of my culture and by extent neighbouring countries as well due to common cultural norms we share.. specifically our fondness for banter.

 It's very annoying when people, especially those who talk big about tolerance and diversity end up having the most intolerant and close minded attitudes towards foreign cultures and social norms they don't approve of.

[KeoLegend.5132]

I dont think we are losing anything tbf

The game is so "minority-centered" that even being PEG18+ would change anything because SJW heavy content would not dare to ever subvert or challenge the agenda.

 

And it was also stated by a red post that this IS INTENTIONAL. That they want to bring this minority idea and promote it hard in GW2, even tho most of us aren't part of that said minority.

 

If you have any hopes left on having a good non PEG13+ game you gotta go to Eastern games sadly. They still are not infected by this form of view and think.... yet.

Edited September 6, 2022 by KeoLegend.5132

[anninke.7469]

16 hours ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

I play this game with my 7 and 10 year old and we have a blast 🤷‍♂️ I am against making it more "mature." I am curious how many people are out there playing this game with kids the same age as mine. My guess is not many.  But the game, as is, is in a good place for my family.

I play with my 5yo son. Having a game we can share is awesome, so I'm very much in the "game good as is" camp. Not to mention that I personally like it better without much mature stuff (mainly gore) as well.

[Vyr.9387]

I'm curious how many concessions had been made purposefully in compliance with the desired rating, in lieu of the art direction, as a number of people have already pointed out.

If we start with the Core story, no amount of blood, sex, and/or whatever is generally regarded as "mature" nowadays would give it any more artistic depth and polish. The Personal Story's writing is atrocious, the voice acting sounds like most of the cast were provided with twenty minutes of time and several sheets of paper containing only their own lines with no context - or punctuation - whatsoever, and the entire thing is saved solely by mostly the commanders' VAs being able to lend a soul to and even salvage such wondrous pieces as Eir's "Courage, skill, and friendship brought the dragon low. Let this day never be forgotten!" at Fort Trinity after Zhaitan's spam 1 extravaganza.
(That being said, I've recently went through the attack on Claw Island with a female charr, and... my skin still wants to crawl off, recalling that perfect storm of a teenage fan-fic reading competition said experience delivered.)
But then try jumping into EoD. The contrast is ridiculous to the point it might very well be a completely unrelated game in almost every aspect.
And, from my perspective, one of the most beautiful things about the Living hiStory concept is being able to witness the progress all the way from the beginning to the end (cough), but, where gameplay features are getting invented and left to rot, following the steps and how the artists themselves grew and blossomed over time is a sight to behold.
Or how they got replaced. Not following the behind-the-scenes shenanigans to that extent.

Ultimately, creativity will always be confined within walls of cultural norms and customs, yet, as necessity begets invention, so do those walls serve as canvases for poets and paintresses, as clay for sculptrices and engravers, and as building blocks for shelters made by architects willing to break them.

Yes, we are losing a fair share of realism and overall artistry to various things unrelated to the world of Tyria. But one could argue that we're losing much more artistry to the fact GW2 is a MMORPG by default.
Nudity and sex at large, for example, has been mentioned at several points; an idea of being ashamed of one's own body and deemed indecent for both exposure and appreciation of probably the most magnificent organic construct in the world, perpetuated to this day from an ages-old idea formed by religious zealots looking for excuses for their inadequacies instead of understanding. Can't really blame them too much, but we as a species are way beyond those days, and Tyria has never had such problems to begin with, as far as I'm aware. And it's even shown in the world itself! by asuras and charrs not having a problem with exposed chests of their races' female members, but humans, plant humans, and big humans all have "human" in the name, so they must adhere to this nonsense, even though no rhyme nor reason is present to justify such a restriction, other than catering to our Terran standards.

Then again, is that really a problem with the artist or even the rating system, or are we, in our ancient ways of thought, the ones actively requiring age-old chains because our proudly modern brains turn off at the sight of a square centimeter of naked flesh?

[lezbefriends.7516]

I hear of people’s children playing around here, so more power to them.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

For such a rating you are missing out on:

More profanity

Blood

Gore

Fan service wardrobe malfunctions.

[Vayne.8563]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:55 AM, KrivukasLT.3507 said:

This.  In my guild alone im the youngest, and im 27. Majority are well in their 30s and 40s

It feels that that anyone who is atleast mastery lvl 100 is well over 18. So yeah i aggree that rating for teens or even 18+ would give devs alot more freedom in storytelling. 

This is true for me too. Most of the guild is older. However, most of the guild doesn't consider the story disneyish like the OP does. In fact, older people I play with seem to like the story.  I don't think more blood or violent graphics would improve the game for me personally.

[Artemis.8034]

Why is it that every time i see these posts it seems to come down to want nudity and sexual situations in the game. The game its self has mature themes if you mean maturity, if you are looking for mature as in sexual then lol thats not mature 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Why is it that every time i see these posts it seems to come down to want nudity and sexual situations in the game. The game its self has mature themes if you mean maturity, if you are looking for mature as in sexual then lol thats not mature 

A game can have mature themes without a mature rating.

The ratings are increased because of things like the following (both presence of and frequency of):

Profanity

Violence

Nudity

Blood and gore 

Alcohol and drug use 

'suggestive' themes 

And mature themes in general.

GW2 has violence, alcohol, mature themes, suggestive themes, and even occasional profanity. You really are just missing out on nudity, blood and gore.

The presence of a lesbian couple itself would have garnered a higher rating back in the 90s and early aughts.

 

 

 

 

 

[Valfar.3761]

A higher age rating wouldn't make the game's story less juvenile.

Besides, I don't play this game for its writing or the drama. I play it to beat up dragons and go to fantasy locations. The living world seasons are always a snooze because it's just people standing around and talking for hours and hours. The expansion stories are short but at least they are mostly action. If I wanted to play a game with lots of drama then I'd pick up a JRPG.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Valfar.3761

[TSCavalier.8053]

Echoing what others stated earlier, a game can be mature without containing language, sex, and violence.

Most Pixar movies contain very adult themes. Even something as family-friendly as Stardew Valley contains mature themes.

What are mature themes? Mature themes are ones that require the audience to have enough experience/wisdom in life to understand complex motivations and the consequences of actions based on those motivations.

For example: One of the character stories in Stardew Valley involves a woman who left the big city and escaped an emotionally abusive relationship. Later on in the story the old boyfriend shows up and tries to win her back, but is obviously still abusive. To kids, this just looks like characters bickering. To adults, this is serious stuff. Mind... this is in a cute 2D pixel-art game that is entirely child appropriate to just run around and make farms and feed your chickens.

Some of the best entertainment works in "layers". Ever notice that in the background of Toy Story, Andy's parents are in the middle of a divorce fallout? The kids don't notice the mature subtext, but the adults do, and that's why it works for both adults and kids.

Guild Wars 2 is a great tween+ game where kids can get into it and parents and adults can play together. Please don't wreck that by adding explicit gore, offensive language, and overtly sexual content. I think it's hitting just the right balance now, and is part of GW2's charm.

Edited September 8, 2022 by TSCavalier.8053

[Vyr.9387]

8 hours ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Why is it that every time i see these posts it seems to come down to want nudity and sexual situations in the game. The game its self has mature themes if you mean maturity, if you are looking for mature as in sexual then lol thats not mature 

Because it's a part of life, and keeping everything sex-related away just makes the world look like a fanatical Catholic's wet dream, i. e. unrealistic at best, prohibitive at worst, because taking sex off the table as a concept also eliminates a vital - if not THE - driving force for human action, which makes Tyria such a beautiful place to explore it:
   

Spoiler

    - humans as the baseline, 'cuz most relatable,
    - but then we have the sylvari, who would reasonably have no clue how procreation operates or why is it even relevant in the first place, or why their human-shaped bodies have features as they do, not to mention how their perspective on romance and choosing a partner would change, considering almost everything we feel about a person based on evolutionary benefits (symmetry, broad hips in women, strong shoulders in men...) could - and most likely should - be thrown out of the window entirely,
    - norns living the uncertainty of a stereotypical view on the Scandinavian landscape, taking every opportunity to savor life in full, being that much closer to the fact we, humans, are still just a regular part of fauna, and should cherish the connection immensely,
    - while asuras would logically go for an ideology similar to Kant's, that sex is just so far beneath our cognitive endeavors that we should actively limit it to the minimum required to not die out as a species,
    - with charrs being similar to asuras in their utilitarian views, but from a different perspective: it's vital to keep the legions' ranks up, it also doesn't feel bad, but ain't nobody got time for lying down for no reason.
And many of these ideas are already implemented, looking at the bigger picture, but the details are never even mentioned, which could be remedied with something as tiny as either poking fun at it, or letting it color the characters' personalities to an extent. The closest we've gotten to that was during the Jahai story, where the HIGH commander asked on the comms whether anybody else has ever noticed how soft Rytlock's fur was. And that's only a tiny bit above nothing.
And Kiel's remark on "having fun in Amnoon". That's obviously more than nothing, but EoD is likewise obviously beyond whatever came before, as I've already mentioned.

That is, of course, not to say the meat of the game should be dating or collecting the OG Witcher-styled cards from NPCs to show off your impressive deck to Dragon's Watch or, hell, Aurene herself in order to enlarge it.
But even if we exclude the latter because nobody close to her could ever stop thinking about the literally magical Be-all and the End-all as their kid, having people be around each other for eight - in the case of the commander, Caithe, and Rytlock ten - years with the only flames lit and sounds of pounding being your Catalyst defining the meta is relatively bizarre.

Which, from the overall story's perspective, might actually be exactly on point, now that I think about it.
Still feels off, because the spice is simply lacking.
Guess that's why there's usually some provocateur character incorporated into a story? In case everybody and everything becomes way too single-minded. Sure, the world's got a high chance of ending tomorrow, but today you could use a bath, miss Delaqua.

Sex and nudity, however, was just a single example of mature themes, and also pointing out a deeper issue than "MAKE JAMIE RO PAINT MY WALLS".
Looking at the PEGI rating system, description of the very first level, PEGI 3, says: "...There may also be nudity when shown in a completely natural and non-sexual manner, for example during breastfeeding." More than enough, I imagine, for people seeking nudity for nudity's sake.
PEGI 12, on the other hand, states: "While sex may not be shown, there may be sexual innuendo and sexual activity can be implied (eg a couple getting into bed). The type of suggestive posing and dancing that's familiar from music videos may also be allowed, although there will be no sexual nudity," which is basically a green light for softcore porn, judging by today's standards.

Again, however, a decade of development should in no way be judged in its entirety, especially in a case like GW2, and, since leaving Core Tyria, virtually every single discussed thing has been - and is being, assumed by the trajectory so far - improved.
The only problem I see regarding this is that a "normal" player would go through the experience chronologically, which hits them with the worst the game has to offer first, both in gameplay and story, turning off some of them for absolutely no reason, because the current game has precious little to do with Core Tyria.
But then the question is: do you keep remaking the first four pictures you've ever drawn every couple of years when you feel like you've learned enough to make them better, or do you keep them as a reminder of where the journey started, proudly making the progress itself a part of your style?

[kharmin.7683]

27 minutes ago, Vyr.9387 said:

Because it's a part of life, and keeping everything sex-related away just makes the world look like a fanatical Catholic's wet dream, i. e. unrealistic at best, prohibitive at worst, because taking sex off the table as a concept also eliminates a vital - if not THE - driving force for human action, which makes Tyria such a beautiful place to explore it:

 

Going to the bathroom is also a part of life, but we don't need to add that to the game either.

 

[Farohna.6247]

On 9/6/2022 at 7:30 AM, anninke.7469 said:

I play with my 5yo son. Having a game we can share is awesome, so I'm very much in the "game good as is" camp. Not to mention that I personally like it better without much mature stuff (mainly gore) as well.

I also appreciate having a game that I can put the toddler on my lap and can point out different things without worrying about lots of gory details.  Not all games need to be overly violent or with mature cut scenes.  I enjoy playing all games but it's nice to have a "pretty" game to play with less worry for little eyes going past before they are ready to process such things.

[Farohna.6247]

47 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Going to the bathroom is also a part of life, but we don't need to add that to the game either.

 

And there are games for those who like to stop and take a toilet break already lol.  While I can appreciate the level of detail in many games, I find it a bit ridiculous at times.  Like yes we all do these things in real life.  I play games as a diversion and to relax.  Not really interested in seeing my charr taking a poo (litter box?) or making more Rytlocks.  

[KerryTT.4792]

52 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Going to the bathroom is also a part of life, but we don't need to add that to the game either.

 

Well, perhaps a new minigame, similar to fishing?

[StarPT.7431]

On 9/4/2022 at 10:54 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

It feels like you are undervaluing the impact of gamers 13-15.  Parents will buy kids games based solely on the rating it has. As GW2 is F2P at base, I’m sure many teenagers download this with their parents blessing after seeing the 13 rating. Include that GW2 has family appeal which in turn allows parents and kids to play together. and parents will buy their kids gemstore  skins and utilities  

As well, I don’t believe that the writing in this game would be any better if the rating changed. Sure, they could tackle more adult themes and content but the writing and voice acting in this game wouldn’t suddenly become that much better for it. 
 

And what, gory combat effects?  It would still be an eyesore of color whether it’s bloody red or prismatic explosions. 

Honestly, it's really something to undervalue....there are a lot more parents that don't care about rating, specially in the 13-15 age gap, than the ones who care.

I know I played a lot of 16+ and 18+ rated games when I was even younger than 13 with full knowledge of my parents and I know for a fact that like me there are tons of others otherwise you wouldn't see FPS games and GTA V lobbies full of literal children...like, as in you can hear in their voices that they are way too young.

Also, there's another thing. Kids do be taking their own savings and buying their own games even without their parents' knowledge and playing the games hidden, so there's also that.

Edited September 8, 2022 by StarPT.7431

[Vyr.9387]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Going to the bathroom is also a part of life, but we don't need to add that to the game either.

 

Unless you're playing on a toilet, we kinda do that already, don't we.

I also dare say sexual attraction shapes a (human) life slightly more than the dark end of the GI tract does, although it can certainly be argued that living without the former is indeed much more palatable than living without the latter.

[Danikat.8537]

You don't need to show sex to have stories about sexual attraction and relationships. Many characters in GW2 are in relationships, or have been previously, or are obviously attracted to each other but haven't yet acted on it (like Taimi and Gorrik). We know some of them have had sex because they have children, and we can probably assume others have because of the length of the relationship and the fact that Tyria doesn't seem to have any taboos about sex.

It's never been the main focus of the storyline, but I think that's more to do with the type of game than the age rating. Similarly I think the reason our characters haven't been given a canon relationship is because it would be impossible to find a character everyone would accept all their characters being involved with and impractical to offer enough options to please everyone, not because of some misconception that 12+ games don't allow player characters to be in relationships.

(On a related note ratings boards will work with the companies whose work they evaluate - if someone at Anet wanted to do something and wasn't sure if it was allowed they could call or email to ask instead of having to avoid anything which seems like it might risk being a bit too close to the line. I remember one movie making-of documentary where they said they had an extended conversation with the ratings board about exactly how many times they could use a particular swear word, and were told that depended partially on the context of when and why it was being said.)

[Cuks.8241]

There are very few genres, stories, films, games that benefit from profanity or gore. GW2 is definitely not one that would benefit from it. Most of the time they just come out cheap and made for the younger funnily) or even less intelligent. And I'm not implying that profanities automatically equals stupid. A well placed bomb can prove a point, gore and sex has its place. 

As @TSCavalier.8053 pointed out, you can have a story that can be fun for kids and adult layers that will gives mature adults a pause. And that is much more masterful and thought provoking than just being straight to the face with 18+ stuff. 

Me personally, I'm looking for good game play. I dont really care about the style or rating if it plays well. I dont need my enemy to explode in a cloud of blood and gore, I prefer if the game keeps it clean (unless its Doom). As for the story, it's a typical game story. There were very few games that kept me hooked because of the story. I've been regularly reading books for 30 years now, thats a lot of books. It's the best media to convey a story so other medias usually disappoint me.

[Dawdler.8521]

14 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The presence of a lesbian couple itself would have garnered a higher rating back in the 90s and early aughts.

Out of curiousity do you have an actual example to back that up? Any game that got mature based on the presence of such couples alone?  

ESRB has existed since 1994 and in this regard the jump from teen to mature seem to always have been sexual content (ignoring the other things). PEGI was created in 2003 and same thing there I guess. A big game would obviously be the first Sims... which was teen rated.

Instead in my searches I found this which imply your scenario was the complete opposite for early ESRB ratings. They didnt seem to care.

The Orion Conspiracy

ESRB rating: T for Strong Language

To this day, the bland graphic adventure game The Orion Conspiracy is remembered for two things: being one of the first video games to openly reference/include homosexuality in its main storyline, and being the only T-rated game to get away with at least a dozen, uncensored F-bombs (which are both voiced and seen in the text). It was also one of the first games to contain strong language, which is why it advertises it on the front like it’s a feature.

This was a very early decision for the ESRB, so perhaps no clear standards on strong language were established yet. The game has interesting classifications all over the world, with an M rating in Australia, a 6 rating from the USK in Germany, and an 18+ rating from the now-defunct ELSPA in the UK. (It’d likely receive a PEGI 16 today.)

Edited September 8, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Aly Cat.9415]

I like the Diablo franchise. I like the Guild Wars 2 franchise. Let things have their own vibes. And not all content for adults in any other medium is a hard M either. Quality of storytelling has nothing to do with ratings besides. Good and bad quality for all age groups. Technically the most adult content isn't exactly known for its writing besides. 

 

[kharmin.7683]

18 minutes ago, Aly Cat.9415 said:

Technically the most adult content isn't exactly known for its writing besides. 

 

Yeah, I only buy those magazines for the articles!

[Danikat.8537]

14 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Yeah, I only buy those magazines for the articles!

Annoyingly some of them genuinely do have good articles. Not the most well written but certainly informative.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

In response to the original post of this thread, while I can see some people feeling constrained or limited by the limits placed on the game by catering to the younger age audience.  I myself have found in our guild that it really has never been an issue, everyone in our guild is over 26 and most are in the 40's or higher and while we can and often do mix it up in our conversations with various adult themed discussions that doesn't dominate the discussions in any way that someone in their middle teens couldn't be a part of the conversation. Honestly I have had conversations with people that are in the 13 to 16 year age bracket that been refreshingly insightful, mature and more aware of national and global events than I have had with some people that were 3 and even 4 times their age so for Anet to err on the side caution with regard to the tone of the game so allow access to broader audience I for say good for them. Now if you think that the societal restrictions set by local groups and authorities is to restrictive that is a conversation totally beyond the scope of anything to do with the game and should be discussed by you with like minded people in your community, but thank you for starting the conversation.