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What are we losing by keeping the game PEGI 13+?


Valisha.8650

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MMO storytelling is a hard medium. "Mature" stories (subtle, nuanced, cerebral, etc.) are hard enough as it is.

There's a "fake" kind of "mature" that popular mediums fall into. Thinking of the likes of Game of Thrones... these stories don't actually have complex storytelling. They just shock and disgust. And, they can tell those "mature" stories in a medium that lasts around 10-12 hours if you binge them.

A complaint about GW2's personal story is that it's disjointed. You can very easily do a personal story mission, then go off for days or weeks before returning to the story... and have no idea where you left off. A nuanced event or dialog in one mission is long gone from memory by the time you pick up the next.

So... the individual story beats have to be one-note just so you can remember them. I have no idea of the name of the mission, the events that happened in the mission, the words that were said.... all I know is that it was that one mission where I escorted Trahearne around while he fought stuff using Caladbolg for the first time. The only REALLY important thing about that mission was "Trahearn has a sword called Caladbolg"... which is all that there was to remember among the other noise that happens when playing an open-world MMO with events, and WvW, and PvP, and every other distraction that can go on for days of playing.

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As I have grown old, I have found time and again that the "mature" stories are actually quite juvenile, written to be edgy more than meaningful, and contribute very little to the overall quality of a story.  All of the complex philosophical questions on life, the interpersonal dynamics between individuals, and the relationship of man to the world as a whole are all notions that are easily explored within the G and PG rating.  The only thing a higher rating would give me is more sex appeal, but that gets old after about half an hour twice a day each day.  

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50 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

  The only thing a higher rating would give me is more sex appeal, but that gets old after about half an hour twice a day each day.  

Apparently doesn't get that old by what I've seen in map chat in Divinity's Reach from time to time.  /sigh

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It is the same reason why many movies stay in the PG13 range. It is no that you are losing the 13-16 audience, but there are large segments of adults who would not play or watch content that has excessive violence, gore, nudity or profanity. And your run into accessibility issues on streaming services. You just limit your reach. Plus, trying to change your target audience, 10 years after you released your product, is a good way to lose a significant portion of your player base.

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1 hour ago, TSCavalier.8053 said:

MMO storytelling is a hard medium. "Mature" stories (subtle, nuanced, cerebral, etc.) are hard enough as it is.

...

A complaint about GW2's personal story is that it's disjointed. You can very easily do a personal story mission, then go off for days or weeks before returning to the story... and have no idea where you left off. A nuanced event or dialog in one mission is long gone from memory by the time you pick up the next.

So... the individual story beats have to be one-note just so you can remember them. I have no idea of the name of the mission, the events that happened in the mission, the words that were said.... all I know is that it was that one mission where I escorted Trahearne around while he fought stuff using Caladbolg for the first time. The only REALLY important thing about that mission was "Trahearn has a sword called Caladbolg"... which is all that there was to remember among the other noise that happens when playing an open-world MMO with events, and WvW, and PvP, and every other distraction that can go on for days of playing.


Mature stories certainly are difficult to write, but, when it comes to MMO storytelling, I dare say it's the exact opposite, only that very few devs take full advantage of the expressive potential of the medium as involved as video games are.
There's the sounds (ambient soundtrack is one thing, but not playing an explosion when a character remarks on it is a waste), then there's the visuals (FoW manipulation, fading to black, in-game figures lurking in the background for a keen observer to spot...), and the actual story's writing, and the world's adherence to its own rules, on top of basic player existence, which is another whole can of input worms expecting to matter.
All of these strive for the player's immersion, because that's when the hours upon hours are lost within a span of a breath.

Take Your own experience as an example: If the story were so impeccable and sublime as to sink its teeth into You and not let go, there would be no "going off for days or weeks". It would keep You hooked even outside of the game, would keep You wondering about its future development, and be the last thing You think of before falling asleep and the first thing to consider grabbing a slice of after waking up. Simply put, You'd want to come back.
Cuks mentioned books as the telltale medium of choice, and this is pretty much how I read Sapkowski's Witcher, Rothfuss' The Kingkiller Chronicle, or even Dettmer's Immune. And books are plain text! perhaps with an illustration or two thrown in for good measure.
But even when we water it down to simply interesting, there still would be that seed of curiosity planted by "merely" a good idea. The Core stuff has almost nothing, not even sense in many situations (still no idea what's the weird obsession with "heroic" suicides, for instance) - although it certainly could be argued that a gargantuan amount of that has been sacrificed for the sake of GW2 being a MMORPG first, a story... hundred-and-second? - and, even if understandable and improved upon to an absurd extent even immediately with the first season of the Living World, the Personal Story is still there, doing the game's worst first impression possible.

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Have you seen swearing attempts in gw2 lately?

An Asura say "Godd**n" which is weird for Asura culture

Bangar's "MotherF*****" and my favorite for wrong reason Rytlock's "ClusterF***"

I would throw in Almora "Kiss my A**" instead of Tail but i think it would make that serious moment unintentionally hilarious

Yea, i think they should limit themself to be more creative when tackling adult theme, "Creative limitation" they say

 

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And those uncharacteristic (for GW2) f-bomb swearing attempts really jarred me out of the game. Since they were never used before for years in the game, it broke me out of the game's fiction and felt like either an unintelligent blunder from the writers pandering to the "edgy" crowd.

For me, it didn't have the affect of punctuating an important story moment at all. It made me respect GW2's writers a bit less, honestly... even cut short as they were.

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53 minutes ago, TSCavalier.8053 said:

And those uncharacteristic (for GW2) f-bomb swearing attempts really jarred me out of the game. Since they were never used before for years in the game, it broke me out of the game's fiction and felt like either an unintelligent blunder from the writers pandering to the "edgy" crowd.

For me, it didn't have the affect of punctuating an important story moment at all. It made me respect GW2's writers a bit less, honestly... even cut short as they were.

Agreed.  It didn't really do anything to advance the narrative, in my opinion. 

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I'm glad they didn't use "kiss my tail". That always reminds me of early 90's Saturday morning cartoons and the incredibly obvious work-arounds they used to avoid swearing, especially the ones adapted from comic books intended for an older audience. Even as a kid that sounded absurd and artificial (even coming from characters with a tail). I think people unwilling to actually swear simply wouldn't use the phrase at all.

In-universe swear words can be one way to handle it, like the charr saying "burn me" but those can be hit or miss as well. I didn't like that in the recent Guardians of the Galaxy game they were constantly saying 'flark' instead of a real swear word that sounds almost identical. I think the fact that it was used in exactly the same way and sounded similar again hit that wall of "this is obvious self-censorship" and pulled me out of it. I think you need to have some logic behind it - a consistent way of using that term (which isn't a 1:1 match for a real swear word) and some reason that culture would consider that thing offensive for it to work well.

I think Anet have generally done a good job with that, although now I'm struggling to remember many examples beyond some racist terms like charr calling humans mice (or meat) and asura calling sylvari salad. But I think that's a good compromise, it's not actually swearing but as long as you know a bit about the lore it has the same effect, and often the context makes it clear too, so it works better than a straight substitution for a real-life swear word.

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2 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

although now I'm struggling to remember many examples beyond some racist terms like charr calling humans mice (or meat) and asura calling sylvari salad.

I cant answer for the Charr but for the Sylvari claim that is technically accurate.

A sallad comes in all sizes, shapes and colors. Thus Asurans recognize the diversty of the Sylvari in one single word.

In comparison humans divide skin colors into simplistic "white", "black", "yellow", etc terms and literally none of them are accurate to the actual color of people.

Rascist, pfff. I reject your claim.

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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17 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

It is the same reason why many movies stay in the PG13 range. It is no that you are losing the 13-16 audience, but there are large segments of adults who would not play or watch content that has excessive violence, gore, nudity or profanity. And your run into accessibility issues on streaming services. You just limit your reach. Plus, trying to change your target audience, 10 years after you released your product, is a good way to lose a significant portion of your player base.

I thought it was interesting hearing Mukluk tell the story of when he started streaming and felt he had to throw around profanity because that's what he'd heard other Twitch streamers doing. At some point he had the revelation that it just wasn't him and wasn't necessary. And it has the added benefit of broadening his potential audience. He now even lables his channel as "family friendly", though my recent experience is that it does wander into some light innuendo from time to time.

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35 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I thought it was interesting hearing Mukluk tell the story of when he started streaming and felt he had to throw around profanity because that's what he'd heard other Twitch streamers doing. At some point he had the revelation that it just wasn't him and wasn't necessary. And it has the added benefit of broadening his potential audience. He now even lables his channel as "family friendly", though my recent experience is that it does wander into some light innuendo from time to time.

I suspect for some people it's not something they really think about.

My husband recently pointed out to me that how much I swear when I mess up in a game is inversely proportional to the degree of the mistake. If I fall off a cliff and die I'll go "Oops" and if I realise I've clicked on the wrong waypoint I'll say...something I couldn't repeat on this forum if I wanted to because it would all change to kittens. 😸

(And that's not just in GW2 where death isn't a big deal, I do the same thing when playing other games.)

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Honestly, I wish it was 16+ too. Look at the difference between GW2 and FFXIV.


To me the higher rating doesn't mean "yay more swearing and edge" but it does mean adding more grit and texture to the world. Characters would be able to feel traumatized and the weight of horrific things could be felt in the story. Right now it feels like something awful happens then the main characters make jokey jokes, link arms and skip off into the sunset (with a couple exceptions). The setting deserves to have a bit of grit.  The Elder Dragons are already NIGHTMARES to look at.

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1 minute ago, RadiantWolf.2058 said:

Honestly, I wish it was 16+ too. Look at the difference between GW2 and FFXIV.


To me the higher rating doesn't mean "yay more swearing and edge" but it does mean adding more grit and texture to the world. Characters would be able to feel traumatized and the weight of horrific things could be felt in the story. Right now it feels like something awful happens then the main characters make jokey jokes, link arms and skip off into the sunset (with a couple exceptions). The setting deserves to have a bit of grit.  The Elder Dragons are already NIGHTMARES to look at.

I think that's more just a matter of mediocre writing.  That's also a current issue in many forms of entertainment, and sarcasm or jokes are a coping mechanism that don't always come across well.  For that, honestly Champions ended correctly with out any dumb jokes.  Agree with you that some of the story needs better reactions that are situation appropriate.

Adding some grit would be fine. You can write 12+ stories and make them have a feeling of urgency or darkness or sadness without being "mature" or needing to change the rating.  

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1 minute ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I think that's more just a matter of mediocre writing.  That's also a current issue in many forms of entertainment, and sarcasm or jokes are a coping mechanism that don't always come across well.  For that, honestly Champions ended correctly with out any dumb jokes.  Agree with you that some of the story needs better reactions that are situation appropriate.

Adding some grit would be fine. You can write 12+ stories and make them have a feeling of urgency or darkness or sadness without being "mature" or needing to change the rating.  

It feels to me like a higher rating would give them more wiggle room. GW2 and FFXIV are both T for Teen in USA, are they same rating in other countries....? I honestly don't know, I'm asking.

 

If yes that does mean that this is entirely a writing and presentation thing and not something limiting the devs due to game rating. I don't want tons of swears and blood and nudity or anything. I just want the game world to take itself more seriously. There were moments in Heart of Thorns that really worked. Path of Fire felt a bit more like a cartoon.

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34 minutes ago, RadiantWolf.2058 said:

Honestly, I wish it was 16+ too. Look at the difference between GW2 and FFXIV.


To me the higher rating doesn't mean "yay more swearing and edge" but it does mean adding more grit and texture to the world. Characters would be able to feel traumatized and the weight of horrific things could be felt in the story. Right now it feels like something awful happens then the main characters make jokey jokes, link arms and skip off into the sunset (with a couple exceptions). The setting deserves to have a bit of grit.  The Elder Dragons are already NIGHTMARES to look at.

Weird, FFXIV felt even more child cartoonish to me. Part of why I couldnt bring myself to continue playing. Perhaps it gets better later and I just didnt stick around long enough to see it.

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10 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Weird, FFXIV felt even more child cartoonish to me. Part of why I couldnt bring myself to continue playing. Perhaps it gets better later and I just didnt stick around long enough to see it.

Core game (A Realm Reborn) is just a generic adventure romp. It gets much more textured and nuanced in Heavensward. Not just in terms of themes but in world building. I do think some of its world building kinda slid off in Shadowbringers. There have been two writers, one who did good world building but didn't write interesting characters and one who writes interesting characters without much world building or grit. I'm hoping we can see them team up more in the future, they really cover each other's weaknesses.

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1 hour ago, RadiantWolf.2058 said:

Honestly, I wish it was 16+ too. Look at the difference between GW2 and FFXIV.

 

1 hour ago, RadiantWolf.2058 said:

It feels to me like a higher rating would give them more wiggle room. GW2 and FFXIV are both T for Teen in USA, are they same rating in other countries....? I honestly don't know, I'm asking.

If you think the age rating is the problem why would you compare it to another game with the same rating?

You've answered your own question there - since both got the same age rating the differences you see in the writing are not because of the age rating.

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2 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

 

If you think the age rating is the problem why would you compare it to another game with the same rating?

You've answered your own question there - since both got the same age rating the differences you see in the writing are not because of the age rating.

Because I was under the impression that the ESRB was the same but other areas had different ratings for each. Which, looking into it, is the case.

 

In terms of PEGI, which is the system OP mentioned, GW2 is PEGI 13 and FFXIV is PEGI 16.

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The problem with Tyrian swearing - and otherworldly swearing in general - is actually illustrated quite beautifully by the contrast between what TSCavalier and Danikat said:
 

8 hours ago, TSCavalier.8053 said:

And those uncharacteristic (for GW2) f-bomb swearing attempts really jarred me out of the game. Since they were never used before for years in the game, it broke me out of the game's fiction and felt like either an unintelligent blunder from the writers pandering to the "edgy" crowd.

For me, it didn't have the affect of punctuating an important story moment at all. It made me respect GW2's writers a bit less, honestly... even cut short as they were.

 

 

6 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

...
In-universe swear words can be one way to handle it, like the charr saying "burn me" but those can be hit or miss as well. I didn't like that in the recent Guardians of the Galaxy game they were constantly saying 'flark' instead of a real swear word that sounds almost identical. I think the fact that it was used in exactly the same way and sounded similar again hit that wall of "this is obvious self-censorship" and pulled me out of it. I think you need to have some logic behind it - a consistent way of using that term (which isn't a 1:1 match for a real swear word) and some reason that culture would consider that thing offensive for it to work well.

I think Anet have generally done a good job with that, although now I'm struggling to remember many examples beyond some racist terms like charr calling humans mice (or meat) and asura calling sylvari salad. But I think that's a good compromise, it's not actually swearing but as long as you know a bit about the lore it has the same effect, and often the context makes it clear too, so it works better than a straight substitution for a real-life swear word.


By definition, profanities are meant to offend (or, in the case of the one single universal word starting with f and rhyming with yuck, simply accentuate an idea).
However! since words require common understanding, a strong, obscene term used by one group can mean exactly nothing to the other - wondrously shown by a youngster insulting an old-timer: "Just take an L and scram, lmfao!" "Like... from a letter soup?"
Meaning Tyrians could be - and actually might already be - cursing their hearts out, but it won't ever strike us as meaningfully as it should.
And it need not be understanding of the word itself, even - it's enough to know "this one is a bad word". How many people can realistically tell why is it called "cursing" to begin with, or why many cultures use swearing related to genitalia, regardless of those being associated with both pleasure and procreation?

That's, from what I see, why the writers simply have to use Terran words to achieve the desired shocking effect, otherwise it looks just like what TSCavalier described, and rightly so, because, when compared to the rest of the game, the latest stories are much more lifelike in their flavor.
I completely loved Rytlock's clusterfu(static), though, especially because it was so out of place for Tyria. In the end, it did what it was supposed to do, no matter if viewed negatively or positively, and that's what counts.

Hell, if you think about it, charrs being naught but a giant army, taking one stroll through the Black Citadel should teach you a new way to describe Phlunt every six steps.

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2 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

I completely loved Rytlock's clusterfu(static), though, especially because it was so out of place for Tyria. In the end, it did what it was supposed to do,

It was supposed to break immersion and make you stop to think about the writer and his proclivities rather than the story?

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9 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I'm glad they didn't use "kiss my tail". That always reminds me of early 90's Saturday morning cartoons and the incredibly obvious work-arounds they used to avoid swearing, especially the ones adapted from comic books intended for an older audience. Even as a kid that sounded absurd and artificial (even coming from characters with a tail). I think people unwilling to actually swear simply wouldn't use the phrase at all.

In-universe swear words can be one way to handle it, like the charr saying "burn me" but those can be hit or miss as well. I didn't like that in the recent Guardians of the Galaxy game they were constantly saying 'flark' instead of a real swear word that sounds almost identical. I think the fact that it was used in exactly the same way and sounded similar again hit that wall of "this is obvious self-censorship" and pulled me out of it. I think you need to have some logic behind it - a consistent way of using that term (which isn't a 1:1 match for a real swear word) and some reason that culture would consider that thing offensive for it to work well.

I think Anet have generally done a good job with that, although now I'm struggling to remember many examples beyond some racist terms like charr calling humans mice (or meat) and asura calling sylvari salad. But I think that's a good compromise, it's not actually swearing but as long as you know a bit about the lore it has the same effect, and often the context makes it clear too, so it works better than a straight substitution for a real-life swear word.

Yeah, stuff that fits in-universe logic is fun. One of the reasons I like drizzlewood is because it's got lots of charr-specific language being used that makes it feel more like an alternate universe (as opposed to feeling like our universe with some fantasy creatures in it).

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25 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It was supposed to break immersion and make you stop to think about the writer and his proclivities rather than the story?


Yes, ruffling feathers is the exact aim of any profanity.
And, considering this topic is starting to look like a harpy nest, I dare say the quote's been quite successful in that regard.

Would honestly question any kind of immersion into a story about war that's all bunnies and cuddles, but one can't argue with another one's tastes, yes?

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6 hours ago, RadiantWolf.2058 said:

Honestly, I wish it was 16+ too. Look at the difference between GW2 and FFXIV.


To me the higher rating doesn't mean "yay more swearing and edge" but it does mean adding more grit and texture to the world. Characters would be able to feel traumatized and the weight of horrific things could be felt in the story. Right now it feels like something awful happens then the main characters make jokey jokes, link arms and skip off into the sunset (with a couple exceptions). The setting deserves to have a bit of grit.  The Elder Dragons are already NIGHTMARES to look at.

I dont think the rating is the limitation here. Like you said, horrific things happen. For example Rytlock kills his own son at the end of IBS. Thats as traumatic ending of a chapter as it gets. The rating is not an issue here.

They probably deliberately dont want to delve on it too long though and keep light and cheerful tone of the game which suits more players and keeps them playing longer. I know I can take only as much trauma and grit before I get exhausted. You see this often in TV series. Something really bad will happen at the end of the episode and the sequel just completely shrugs it off in the first few minutes.

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