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Thief burnout during the decade...


theSAINT.6291

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Hello to all thieves main.
First of all sorry for my english ūüôā

I would like to share some thoughts about thief from the returning player as a main thief.
I used to have a ton of fun playing thief D/D, D/P etc. Before HoT came out. I quit the game after PoF because Deadeye is kinda clunky spec comparing to other specs.

In a fast pace battles casting skills as thief (orange bar) is a bit weird design. Even know with specter we have wells and they have casting bar also.

I was happy to see a support class with alac boon but since it has to be casted - not like in any other specs almost instant it is indeed a very weird design.

During my break i was thinking about reroll main to other class. Not sure what to reroll to yet but if Anet dont try to improve playstyle i will have to choose another class. Specially after stealth nerf.

I dont wanna make a thief no1 dps or support. Iam lost with current state with thief. Its not that fun anymore as it used to be. I dont wanna reroll but iam affraid i will have to. 
Sorry for b*ching about this but it takes all fun out of the game now. Maybe one day something will change ....

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Deadeye is, imo, the worst spec in the game. 

It's a DPS spec that forces you to stay still and immobile to do the most damage while only having a dodge to avoid attacks, you COULD use standing Rifle 4, but then you'd lose damage cause you left your DPS "stance" and you're using imitative that could be used on damaging moves. While other classes have the option to walk out of a AOE or walk too a mechanic, Deadeye has to sacrifice damage, both in Imitative and in swapping stances, just to do what every other class in the game can do by default. 

Compare this to Thief's other DPS spec, Daredevil. Condi Daredevil is very survivable thanks to it's 3 dodges, getting endurance on Steal, it's heal that restores endurance, Escapist's Fortitude providing INSANE amounts of sustain in a large group of PvE mob's and Dual Dagger 3 that's also an evade. All that on top of Condi DD being one of the potentially highest DPS spec's in the game.

Specter speaks for itself if you've ever played it, or played with one, it is a fantastic support spec, providing tons of barrier and Alac on well placement. You can also kit Specter to be a DPS and guess what? It also benches high! You also get two healthbars with specter, in case anything goes south, it's also part of your rotation too, so you'll get to use it anyway!

The only place I've seen Deadeye been used viably is in PvP due to it's crazy stealth uptime, but even there it's not the be all end all Thief spec, you can do great work with both Specter and Daredevil, I've did fantastic playing Shadow Art's Daredevil in PvP.

Let me conclude this by asking, what does Deadeye do better then the other Thief spec's? 
1. Most damage out of any Thief Elite spec*
2. Crazy good stealth uptime** 

*Even with that best DPS, it's only best by 1.5k according to Snowcrows, and even then it's beaten by Power Bladesworn and Condi Untamed, y'know, two classes with the ability to walk out of danger. And Condi Daredevil is not far behind and is INFINITLY more survivable in any gamemode minus maybe PvP. Got a mechanic you need to dodge? You got 3 charges AND Dual Dagger 3? Need to repostion without swapping weapons? Dagger 2 is cheap and spamable. Similar story with Specter, just replace dodging with a 2nd HP bar and Repositoning with Well's.

**What use is good stealth uptime in any mode besides PvP? Really? Most of the time in PvE you won't need to worry about stealth cause you'll have other ways to disengage or GTFO, and stealth isnt a core part in doing damage in PvE, and in PvP, the other specs can make use of Stealth too.

There's other minor things, 1500 range while kneeling, very good self boon application, but those two are memey as hell. 1500 range is only a minor benefit in PvE, and in WvW, where you might want to use that 1500 range to snipe people on walls, it makes it hard cause you're so immobile while having that range, not to mention Ranger longbow completely invalidates Deadeye's 1500 range. And Self boon uptime? If you're able to give yourself every boon in the game it won't matter if your group is already providing all the boons you need, or in open world PvE where Deadeye is so, so bad at tagging and cleaving multiple mobs.

TL:DR: Deadeye is clunky as hell to play and isn't even that good compared to the other Thief elite specs once you get start comparing them all.

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1 hour ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

Deadeye is, imo, the worst spec in the game. 

It's a DPS spec that forces you to stay still and immobile to do the most damage while only having a dodge to avoid attacks, you COULD use standing Rifle 4, but then you'd lose damage cause you left your DPS "stance" and you're using imitative that could be used on damaging moves. While other classes have the option to walk out of a AOE or walk too a mechanic, Deadeye has to sacrifice damage, both in Imitative and in swapping stances, just to do what every other class in the game can do by default. 

Compare this to Thief's other DPS spec, Daredevil. Condi Daredevil is very survivable thanks to it's 3 dodges, getting endurance on Steal, it's heal that restores endurance, Escapist's Fortitude providing INSANE amounts of sustain in a large group of PvE mob's and Dual Dagger 3 that's also an evade. All that on top of Condi DD being one of the potentially highest DPS spec's in the game.

Specter speaks for itself if you've ever played it, or played with one, it is a fantastic support spec, providing tons of barrier and Alac on well placement. You can also kit Specter to be a DPS and guess what? It also benches high! You also get two healthbars with specter, in case anything goes south, it's also part of your rotation too, so you'll get to use it anyway!

The only place I've seen Deadeye been used viably is in PvP due to it's crazy stealth uptime, but even there it's not the be all end all Thief spec, you can do great work with both Specter and Daredevil, I've did fantastic playing Shadow Art's Daredevil in PvP.

Let me conclude this by asking, what does Deadeye do better then the other Thief spec's? 
1. Most damage out of any Thief Elite spec*
2. Crazy good stealth uptime** 

*Even with that best DPS, it's only best by 1.5k according to Snowcrows, and even then it's beaten by Power Bladesworn and Condi Untamed, y'know, two classes with the ability to walk out of danger. And Condi Daredevil is not far behind and is INFINITLY more survivable in any gamemode minus maybe PvP. Got a mechanic you need to dodge? You got 3 charges AND Dual Dagger 3? Need to repostion without swapping weapons? Dagger 2 is cheap and spamable. Similar story with Specter, just replace dodging with a 2nd HP bar and Repositoning with Well's.

**What use is good stealth uptime in any mode besides PvP? Really? Most of the time in PvE you won't need to worry about stealth cause you'll have other ways to disengage or GTFO, and stealth isnt a core part in doing damage in PvE, and in PvP, the other specs can make use of Stealth too.

There's other minor things, 1500 range while kneeling, very good self boon application, but those two are memey as hell. 1500 range is only a minor benefit in PvE, and in WvW, where you might want to use that 1500 range to snipe people on walls, it makes it hard cause you're so immobile while having that range, not to mention Ranger longbow completely invalidates Deadeye's 1500 range. And Self boon uptime? If you're able to give yourself every boon in the game it won't matter if your group is already providing all the boons you need, or in open world PvE where Deadeye is so, so bad at tagging and cleaving multiple mobs.

TL:DR: Deadeye is clunky as hell to play and isn't even that good compared to the other Thief elite specs once you get start comparing them all.

I think Shadow Meld should change to something that helps cover DE and maybe a radius around them while in Kneel stance and Silent Scope should change to something that helps DE move with a fight while in Kneel, like it can turn Kneel into a Crouch and maybe Dodge in Crouch uses less Energy or gives some mitigation. 

Other than that I like the way DE moves with a fight. Death's Retreat untargeted in Default Camera or targeted while in Action Camera both feel fluid and natural like Withdraw. Snipers Cover and DR off of it are easy and fun to use, but again, I think that sequence needs better cover in place of current Silent Scope. I could be making a bad call for DE overall but that's my take right now. 

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I love Deadeye for open world and PvP.  P/D is super strong and can solo legendary bounties.  Rifle is great in PvP or for easier map completion stuff.  I love the large amount of boons m7 gives me which is very nice while playing solo!  P/P is even fun on deadeye. 

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Just reading this topic gives me a headache...

So from top to bottom:

1. Just go and try another profession. I'm a long years necro main, but that did not stop me from jumping ship to thief in recent 3 weeks. And am loving the kitty outta deadeye, while I can't stand even looking at daredevil.
As for what to try - Ranger. He's kinda thief/warrior hybrid, with fast, reactive weapon skills, good access to evasion and stealth, while also having a ton of cc and defense.

2. Ofc specter is clunky. It's supposed to be. Most elite specs (not all) follow the paradigm of being a "subclass" based on other professions. Here it's obviously the necro. So specter gets a ton of survivability, aoe wells and heal/barrier support style similar to scourge, but gets flooded with cast times and is generally slower.

3. I play thief for 3 weeks now. And even I can't believe someone is trying to suggest Shadow Meld needs changes. Leave it ALONE.
Deadeye needs these extra stealth casts from it like fish needs water. I'm fine with a fair tradeoff like it no longer breaking revealed, but in exchange getting extra functionality on top. But stealth application must absolutely stay. Not every Deadeye rolls with rifle and has free stealth from dodging.

Edited by ZeftheWicked.3076
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1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Just reading this topic gives me a headache...

So from top to bottom:

1. Just go and try another profession. I'm a long years necro main, but that did not stop me from jumping ship to thief in recent 3 weeks. And am loving the kitty outta deadeye, while I can't stand even looking at daredevil.
As for what to try - Ranger. He's kinda thief/warrior hybrid, with fast, reactive weapon skills, good access to evasion and stealth, while also having a ton of cc and defense.

2. Ofc specter is clunky. It's supposed to be. Most elite specs (not all) follow the paradigm of being a "subclass" based on other professions. Here it's obviously the necro. So specter gets a ton of survivability, aoe wells and heal/barrier support style similar to scourge, but gets flooded with cast times and is generally slower.

3. I play thief for 3 weeks now. And even I can't believe someone is trying to suggest Shadow Meld needs changes. Leave it ALONE.
1. Deadeye needs these extra stealth casts from it like fish needs water. I'm fine with a fair tradeoff like it no longer breaking revealed, but in exchange getting extra functionality on top. But stealth application must absolutely stay. 2. Not every Deadeye rolls with rifle and has free stealth from dodging.

1. If Meld strengthened other stuff you wouldn't need the extra stealth casts.

2. Take what's needed or roll with something else. Or you can wait until Anet releases a build that has everything in it. 

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On 9/5/2022 at 5:08 PM, SamuelW.2685 said:

Deadeye is, imo, the worst spec in the game. 

It's a DPS spec that forces you to stay still and immobile to do the most damage while only having a dodge to avoid attacks, you COULD use standing Rifle 4, but then you'd lose damage cause you left your DPS "stance" and you're using imitative that could be used on damaging moves. While other classes have the option to walk out of a AOE or walk too a mechanic, Deadeye has to sacrifice damage, both in Imitative and in swapping stances, just to do what every other class in the game can do by default. 

Compare this to Thief's other DPS spec, Daredevil. Condi Daredevil is very survivable thanks to it's 3 dodges, getting endurance on Steal, it's heal that restores endurance, Escapist's Fortitude providing INSANE amounts of sustain in a large group of PvE mob's and Dual Dagger 3 that's also an evade. All that on top of Condi DD being one of the potentially highest DPS spec's in the game.

Specter speaks for itself if you've ever played it, or played with one, it is a fantastic support spec, providing tons of barrier and Alac on well placement. You can also kit Specter to be a DPS and guess what? It also benches high! You also get two healthbars with specter, in case anything goes south, it's also part of your rotation too, so you'll get to use it anyway!

The only place I've seen Deadeye been used viably is in PvP due to it's crazy stealth uptime, but even there it's not the be all end all Thief spec, you can do great work with both Specter and Daredevil, I've did fantastic playing Shadow Art's Daredevil in PvP.

Let me conclude this by asking, what does Deadeye do better then the other Thief spec's? 
1. Most damage out of any Thief Elite spec*
2. Crazy good stealth uptime** 

*Even with that best DPS, it's only best by 1.5k according to Snowcrows, and even then it's beaten by Power Bladesworn and Condi Untamed, y'know, two classes with the ability to walk out of danger. And Condi Daredevil is not far behind and is INFINITLY more survivable in any gamemode minus maybe PvP. Got a mechanic you need to dodge? You got 3 charges AND Dual Dagger 3? Need to repostion without swapping weapons? Dagger 2 is cheap and spamable. Similar story with Specter, just replace dodging with a 2nd HP bar and Repositoning with Well's.

**What use is good stealth uptime in any mode besides PvP? Really? Most of the time in PvE you won't need to worry about stealth cause you'll have other ways to disengage or GTFO, and stealth isnt a core part in doing damage in PvE, and in PvP, the other specs can make use of Stealth too.

There's other minor things, 1500 range while kneeling, very good self boon application, but those two are memey as hell. 1500 range is only a minor benefit in PvE, and in WvW, where you might want to use that 1500 range to snipe people on walls, it makes it hard cause you're so immobile while having that range, not to mention Ranger longbow completely invalidates Deadeye's 1500 range. And Self boon uptime? If you're able to give yourself every boon in the game it won't matter if your group is already providing all the boons you need, or in open world PvE where Deadeye is so, so bad at tagging and cleaving multiple mobs.

TL:DR: Deadeye is clunky as hell to play and isn't even that good compared to the other Thief elite specs once you get start comparing them all.

Lol D.E rifle vs. mech rifles says it all.

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On 9/8/2022 at 5:25 PM, kash.9213 said:

1. If Meld strengthened other stuff you wouldn't need the extra stealth casts.

2. Take what's needed or roll with something else. Or you can wait until Anet releases a build that has everything in it. 

If Shadow Arts wasn't reworked into being even more of our Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card for everything from cleansing to defense to support (and initiative generation between), yeah, Shadow Meld could absolutely be buffed.

But therein lies the problem:  access to stealth.

Imagine if the elite instead gave us a temporary, Firebrand Tome-like state based on malice.  You get up to 5/7 uber attacks while being resistant to all sources of incoming damage until it's used up.  That would feel absolutely cool and not redundant with the existing Silent Scope trait.

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4 hours ago, Mincsk.6028 said:

Lol D.E rifle vs. mech rifles says it all.

You're comparing a sniper rifle with a machine gun..

Proper comparison would be longbow ranger. Both are long range snipers with similar playstyles.
Keep the enemy away while pricking them with long range shots between big fat bursts (rapid fire or Death's Judgement).

And here it becomes obvious what's wrong. Ranger is packed with tools for kiting whole groups of monsters, while Deadeye can barely keep one target in place, let alone a whole mob.
And then it's either melee rifle time or dodging 2k units backwards before whole skirmish is over..


 

Edited by ZeftheWicked.3076
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