Why Are You Afraid to Nerf Thief All The Time??

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

26 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Does adapt mean roll specter, cata, bladesworn? 

Yes, but also No.

That is, for the most part, a result of people getting nerfed repeatedly and being told to adapt over comparatively trivial issues, then being handed the option to play a spec that -isnt- kitten. (Though bladesworn is propped up by bugs.)

The less broken stuff got nerfed to hell and is still bad, so its no surprise you see tons of the above. The people who wanted the meta nerfed to them got it, before the expack.

 

Its not a good situation, but it is the result of people whining things out of viability. You make more options viable and you'll get less of the above. Or do you think thieves should play DD and warriors zerker/spellbreaker atm?

Edited September 9, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Crab Fear.8623]

24 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Does adapt mean roll specter, cata, bladesworn? 

I guess it means ask for nerfs so our own class can be on top.

[Myror.7521]

Unpopulare opinion here. Everything at the moment is pretty solid balanced. The only things that might need a Look at are:

1. Bladesworn Bugs need to be adressed and fix. After this we will see if it need nerfs in Form of less heal or not.

2. Specter is too strong in what it could do thx to a heavy shroud life. To be fair i doubt a shroud life nerf would kill its Power variant but we will see right?

3. Untamed is actually like a herald but with ways more defence. Finaly nerf its Greatsword this weapon is litterly like 2 weapons just in one.

4. Herald is actually more or less balanced. How ever with last balance changes it see pretty mutch buffs in terms of dmg and quickness while it was allready pretty solid before it. It might be time to nerf its aoe dmg (idk if it is heroe sweap or f2 Button cause not played that class too mutch) to let classes not be killed in less than 2 seconds even while they dodge the hard dmg comb of rev.

 

Well those are the issues i see the meta allready get. Those builds are all more or less meta builds that highly dominate it for get something too strong or just bugy. Nerf them the said way and we might see a healthy meta (or maybe a tanky meta again lmao but that also is a thing of slight buff all classes dmg a bit)

Edited September 9, 2022 by Pati.2438

[felix.2386]

On 9/7/2022 at 2:20 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

This is coming from someone who hates fighting thief. 

just heads up, nobody enjoys fighting a thief, only thief main who never touched any other class try to lie to themselves

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

16 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Yes, but also No.

That is, for the most part, a result of people getting nerfed repeatedly and being told to adapt over comparatively trivial issues, then being handed the option to play a spec that -isnt- kitten. (Though bladesworn is propped up by bugs.)

The less broken stuff got nerfed to hell and is still bad, so its no surprise you see tons of the above. The people who wanted the meta nerfed to them got it, before the expack.

 

Its not a good situation, but it is the result of people whining things out of viability. You make more options viable and you'll get less of the above. Or do you think thieves should play DD and warriors zerker/spellbreaker atm?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with players requesting that balance changes happen. It’s a player versus player game mode. The expectation is the player’s skill should be the driving factor behind winning a match up and not just simply choosing the class with the superior mechanics. 
 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

3. Untamed is actually like a herald but with ways more defence. We finaly need to Adress this too high dmg that pets do and maybe sweap its dmg back to rangers weap Set. Or simply finaly nerf its Greatsword this weapon is litterly like 2 weapons just in one.

It's not the pets or the Greatsword, it's the Marksmanship modifiers, which all stack for that single strike.
They need to stop nerfing base pet damage. It ruins non Marksmanship pet performance. The Greatsword is also fine.

Those Marks mods are granting a misc: +25%, +25%, +25%, +25%. This is actually beyond +100% because of how the game adds these multiplicatively rather than additively.

Most people think 100 damage modified like this would be 200 damage, but this is not how it works. The way it works is it does 100 + first 25% = 125 and then adds the next 25% = something like 156 + 3rd 25% = something like 190 + last 25% = something like 235. It's adding a lot more damage than it seems.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Myror.7521]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 well to be fair seen gs of Ranger finaly nerfed would be welcomed in my eyes. How ever I am just a warrior Main so might be comes by that xD. Just will fix my words in thst case xd

Edited September 9, 2022 by Pati.2438

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

23 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

I don’t think there is anything wrong with players requesting that balance changes happen. It’s a player versus player game mode. The expectation is the player’s skill should be the driving factor behind winning a match up and not just simply choosing the class with the superior mechanics. 

 

Sure, but when the balance changes are made as a response to people that portray mechanics or skills people don't like as superior mechanics, when there are already clear counters in place for those mechanics or skills, they create this problem.

 

Players and the devs need to be more careful with this, and willing to rebuff things that drop off in the metrics as long as they are not specifically introducing a concept or mechanic unhealthy for pvp. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

53 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Sure, but when the balance changes are made as a response to people that portray mechanics or skills people don't like as superior mechanics, when there are already clear counters in place for those mechanics or skills, they create this problem.

 

Players and the devs need to be more careful with this, and willing to rebuff things that drop off in the metrics as long as they are not specifically introducing a concept or mechanic unhealthy for pvp. 

We are talking about Specter here. The class that was literally half the players (5 out of 10) in the finals of the last monthly tournament. 

Barrier is the definition of a unhealthy concept and mechanic for PvP in this game. One of the core tenets of a healthy competitive game is the ability to punish your opponent when they’ve made a mistake. When a classes mechanics are able to override that, it is unhealthy. 

You have a class that already has a ton of mobility and then add on barrier. The class is thief on training wheels. There is a reason you see players, especially bad ones flock to these classes. People understand you can play poorly and still perform well with them. That is unhealthy.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Ronald McDonald.8165

[UNOwen.7132]

>Afraid to nerf thief

>Thief is the class with the most nerfs in PvP out of all of them, often getting nerfed at random when they dont deserve it

 

???? 

Like had you said spectre you mightve had a point, spectre is broken and was oddly untouched, but thief has been nerfed more times than any other class.

[Kuma.1503]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:26 PM, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Barrier is the definition of a unhealthy concept and mechanic for PvP in this game. One of the core tenets of a healthy competitive game is the ability to punish your opponent when they’ve made a mistake. When a classes mechanics are able to override that, it is unhealthy. 

We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Barrier isn't inherently unhealthy, but the way it was implemented in this instance makes an already safe class too safe. 

If implemented properly, barrier doesn't prevent the opponent from punishing mistakes, it gives players a window to play aggressive while the enemy must respect this window and wait it out, or burst through it. If the player using the barrier oversteps their bounds and the barrier falls off after they've flung themselves into an unfavorable situation, they will be punished. 

Problems arise when the barrier user has the mobility of a thief and can negate this risk by porting into the sunset once that window of vulnerability opens up. They can also arise when the barrier application is too strong and too frequent and doesn't give the opponent the opening to punish it. Or when a build's durability before factoring barrier is so high that punishing the window doesn't batter in the grand scheme of things. Which is why barrier + shadow shroud is so oppressive. 

Personally, I think Scrapper does it best since there's an inherent risk-reward to using it. They need to go glass to get the maximum value out of it, and it encourages a "rush-down" playstyle which is complimented by superspeed, but it leaves them vulnerable when they're forced on the defensive, run out of offensive CD's to generate barrier with, or when they take more damage from other glass builds than they can mitigate since their baseline defense is intentionally low. 

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

4 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Barrier isn't inherently unhealthy, but the way it was implemented in this instance makes an already safe class too safe. 

If implemented properly, barrier doesn't prevent the opponent from punishing mistakes, it gives players a window to play aggressive while the enemy must respect this window and wait it out, or burst through it. If the player using the barrier oversteps their bounds and the barrier falls off after they've flung themselves into an unfavorable situation, they will be punished. 

Problems arise when the barrier user has the mobility of a thief and can negate this risk by porting into the sunset once that window of vulnerability opens up. They can also arise when the barrier application is too strong and too frequent and doesn't give the opponent the opening to punish it. Or when a build's durability before factoring barrier is so high that punishing the window doesn't batter in the grand scheme of things. Which is why barrier + shadow shroud is so oppressive. 

Personally, I think Scrapper does it best since there's an inherent risk-reward to using it. They need to go glass to get the maximum value out of it, and it encourages a "rush-down" playstyle which is complimented by superspeed, but it leaves them vulnerable when they're forced on the defensive, run out of offensive CD's to generate barrier with, or when they take more damage from other glass builds than they can mitigate since their baseline defense is intentionally low. 

For all intents and purposes with ANET as the development team, barrier is an unhealthy mechanic. Barrier has led to some of the worst metas. The issue isn’t just mobility with thief. Scourge has multiple times created some of the worst PvP gameplay this game has had to offer. 

[Kuma.1503]

53 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

For all intents and purposes with ANET as the development team, barrier is an unhealthy mechanic. Barrier has led to some of the worst metas. The issue isn’t just mobility with thief. Scourge has multiple times created some of the worst PvP gameplay this game has had to offer. 

Scourge also fell under the category of things that can make barrier oppressive. Particularly, these two points:

Quote

They can also arise when the barrier application is too strong and too frequent and doesn't give the opponent the opening to punish it. Or when a build's durability before factoring barrier is so high that punishing the window doesn't batter in the grand scheme of things.

As a broader mechanic though, it's fine. There's instances of it done well, like in the Scrapper example where there is a trade off between bulk and barrier output and the player must give up one to have the other. 

99% of things in this game can be made unhealthy with Anet at the helm. Even simple stats (removal of amulets). 

We've had AoEs be unhealthy in the scourge/FB meta because Anet couldn't balance the cricle spam. 

CCs become unhealthy during the phase where everyone complained about stunlocks. 

Boons become unhealthy (WvW boonball anyone?)

Condis unhealthy. (Burn DH or core condi necro meta)

 

You can list just about anything in this game and say it's unhealthy because of incompetent balance. Barrier isn't unique in that regard. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 9/9/2022 at 2:26 PM, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

We are talking about Specter here. 

Okay, but also fix the other specs being so nerfed they don't show up at all.

Also -you- might just be talking about Specter,  but op clearly isnt.

Quote

Behold the real golden child of pvp.  It's not necro or guard, it's thief. Always has been. 

Specter is prevalent right now because people with hangups on thief mobility and stealth whined it into the floor right before the expack dropped a heap of mobility and mitigation on everyone,  so now specter is the only thief variant that is serviceable. 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

5 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Okay, but also fix the other specs being so nerfed they don't show up at all.

Also -you- might just be talking about Specter,  but op clearly isnt.

Specter is prevalent right now because people with hangups on thief mobility and stealth whined it into the floor right before the expack dropped a heap of mobility and mitigation on everyone,  so now specter is the only thief variant that is serviceable. 

 

I recommend you reread OP again. It’s as clear as day he is talking about Specter. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

37 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

I recommend you reread OP again. It’s as clear as day he is talking about Specter. 

?

Quote

It's insane how almost every meta has thief as the best class and/or spec

You're not seeing the context.

Specter currently having such a significant meta presence is also due to the nerfing of other specs, traitlines and weapons that thief relied on up to this point. Those specs now underperform for conquest,  with Specter being the only viable option. 

 OP has had an issue with thief since the beginning, from his own words. While I have no issue with adjusting Specter,  I do think that adjustment should return some viability to everything that has been shelved to make space for it. 

I refuse to let this be framed as just  "specter too strong,  everything else fine,  not problematic". The other thief stuff sucks, so people are playing Specter.  Its just like people ignoring warrior being bad cause Bladesworn is a meta pick.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

33 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

?

You're not seeing the context.

Specter currently having such a significant meta presence is also due to the nerfing of other specs, traitlines and weapons that thief relied on up to this point. Those specs now underperform for conquest,  with Specter being the only viable option. 

 OP has had an issue with thief since the beginning, from his own words. While I have no issue with adjusting Specter,  I do think that adjustment should return some viability to everything that has been shelved to make space for it. 

I refuse to let this be framed as just  "specter too strong,  everything else fine,  not problematic". The other thief stuff sucks, so people are playing Specter.  Its just like people ignoring warrior being bad cause Bladesworn is a meta pick.

 

This is such a nothing of an argument. Welcome to literally every class. 
 

Viable Specs for ranked:

Ele:

Tempest

Cata

 

Mes:

None

 

Necro:

Reaper

 

Ranger:
Untamed

 

Thief:

Spec

Deadeye

 

Engi:

Mech

 

Rev:

Herald

 

Warrior:

BS

 

Guardian: 

Core

DH

 

Thief having two viable specs is more than most other classes. Almost all specs suck, welcome to GW2. You make it seem crazy that people want the obviously overperforming specs brought in line with everything else. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

This is such a nothing of an argument.

 

Almost all specs suck, welcome to GW2. 

I don't have anything more to really say to you if "most specs suck, welcome to GW2" is your counter to "spread viability across classes so people don't dogpile the broken one." That balancing effort should be applied to every underperforming spec.

Quote

You make it seem crazy that people want the obviously overperforming specs brought in line with everything else.

 

I went out of my way to say "ok, but fix the underperforming stuff." Did I not?

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:11 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's not the pets or the Greatsword, it's the Marksmanship modifiers, which all stack for that single strike.
They need to stop nerfing base pet damage. It ruins non Marksmanship pet performance. The Greatsword is also fine.

Those Marks mods are granting a misc: +25%, +25%, +25%, +25%. This is actually beyond +100% because of how the game adds these multiplicatively rather than additively.

Most people think 100 damage modified like this would be 200 damage, but this is not how it works. The way it works is it does 100 + first 25% = 125 and then adds the next 25% = something like 156 + 3rd 25% = something like 190 + last 25% = something like 235. It's adding a lot more damage than it seems.

I've seen a lot of ranger main's with their heads in the sand over this fact.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 9/9/2022 at 6:00 PM, UNOwen.7132 said:

>Afraid to nerf thief

>Thief is the class with the most nerfs in PvP out of all of them, often getting nerfed at random when they dont deserve it

 

They're sure as heck not afraid to nerf thief, in just the past couple of years we've seen smokescreen axed, seal area, shortbow get hammered, two full reworks to shadow arts, the second of which came with a handful of passive nerfs due to the removal of deception cd reduction and probably some other things.

Wrong on the second part though. In most of those cases they -did- deserve it (but not all of them).

Anyway see yall in 2023 when specter gets nerfed, nothing else gets buffed, and people suddenly realize that they dont like fighting DE, actually. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Crab Fear.8623]

More thief nerfs and plenty of mes baddies to support the idea.

Sadly, you are not a "big dawg" in the discord.

Thief players would be wise to stop bumping the thread with replies if they truly believe the class is balanced.

Self bumpers get deleted.

[Asahi.1487]

Gotta nerf to get people to buy expac. We will see next nerf with next expac