Infusions should also be purchased with currencies instead of only being a rare drop

[andreiblue.8231]

Many infusions are incredibly expensive because they are a rare drop, but they should also be available to purchase with another type of currency and that version be account bound and the amount you can purchase shouldnt be limited as well considering they are account bound.

 

The perfect example is the imperial everbloom infusion. It is a rare drop from CM strikes, but an account bound version can be purchased with a high amount of green shards and ectoplasm. I think it was a good decision to make the number of how many you can buy of the account bound version unlimited because it gives players who managed to get it a reason to continue to do strikes and get more of them.

 

Why cant the other infusions be like this too? For example the deldrimor skin infusion can be purchased with currency specific to DRMs, but only once, I think that made players only want to play them to get the infusion then abandon them, DRMs are abandoned atm, if ArenaNet thinks the price of the infusion was too low then then they should have raised it instead of making only one available for purchase. It is also a rare drop from a box which is purchasable with DRM currency, but because that one is also account bound and the drop rate is as low as Khan Ur's no one bothers trying to get it that way.

 

I think the infusion like Chak, aurilium, queen bee and others like them which are only rare drops should have an account bound version that can be purchased with currencies, it can be a high amount if ArenaNet wants players to keep doing content of those maps. The effects of the ones I mentioned stack so people will definitely want to get more than one.

 

I know this would make their price drop, but I am sure there are many who would still rather pay  thousands of gold for that infusions than grind a map for months.

 

And just to be clear I made this post as someone who DID get one of those rare infusions, I got a dragon pristine left eye which I sold for 9k gold, it was cool, but I wish there was another way to obtain a dragon eye infusion considering there are 4 versions and we can only get one account bound one

[Sobx.1758]

Nah, having some rare drops in mmorpgs is fine.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Nah, having some rare drops in mmorpgs is fine.

IDK, I'd think that having some limit to mitigate the unlucky side of it all would be okay.  Either spend a few years farming it then buying an account bound version of it, or get lucky and get the drop instead of spending potentially infinite time trying for the rare drop.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

IDK, I'd think that having some limit to mitigate the unlucky side of it all would be okay.  Either spend a few years farming it then buying an account bound version of it, or get lucky and get the drop instead of spending potentially infinite time trying for the rare drop.

At that point just "spend a few years farming gold" and then buy it off tp anyways?

The main difference I see between this and your version is the overal number of infusions increases when everyone get it, so we have more obnoxiously glowing bubbles running around. Meanwhile if you want to seriously "farm it up" then you already can 🤷‍♂️

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[andreiblue.8231]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Nah, having some rare drops in mmorpgs is fine.

Who said anything about them not being rare drops anymore? For example Khan Ur's infusion can still be a rare drop one while also having an account bound version that costs 1000 chillis and 10000 volatile magic. I think it would make players want to farm the map a lot more to get multiple account bound ones for their character, but they could still have the option to purchase the bon accountbound one or get it as a rare drop.

[andreiblue.8231]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

At that point just "spend a few years farming gold" and then buy it off tp anyways?

The main difference I see between this and your version is the overal number of infusions increases when everyone get it, so we have more obnoxiously glowing bubbles running around. Meanwhile if you want to seriously "farm it up" then you already can 🤷‍♂️

There should be an option is settings to turn off effects, I mean sometimes when there are too many players their mounts will look normal although they are using a skin so it might be possible to make a setting to turn down their effects as well.

[andreiblue.8231]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

At that point just "spend a few years farming gold" and then buy it off tp anyways?

The main difference I see between this and your version is the overal number of infusions increases when everyone get it, so we have more obnoxiously glowing bubbles running around. Meanwhile if you want to seriously "farm it up" then you already can 🤷‍♂️

Also most people who have the infusions are the ones who spent real money buying gold with gems, very few actually farmed all that gold for them.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

At that point just "spend a few years farming gold" and then buy it off tp anyways?

The main difference I see between this and your version is the overal number of infusions increases when everyone get it, so we have more obnoxiously glowing bubbles running around. Meanwhile if you want to seriously "farm it up" then you already can 🤷‍♂️

Yes because circle farming the same map 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year is interesting content, instead of just getting a single daily token once a day for 15 minutes of playing an event and needing ~1k of them.

It'd also stop the whole TP barons controlling the market on infusions and artificially inflating the price to absurd values.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

9 minutes ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

Who said anything about them not being rare drops anymore? For example Khan Ur's infusion can still be a rare drop one while also having an account bound version that costs 1000 chillis and 10000 volatile magic. I think it would make players want to farm the map a lot more to get multiple account bound ones for their character, but they could still have the option to purchase the bon accountbound one or get it as a rare drop.

This is close to my suggestion but the price you've put is a bit too small in scale.

My suggestion is to provide a daily currency (Or a currency that can be farmed as many times as you can get a chance at the infusion for per day) that's the upper limit of the droprate.  So if a infusion has a 1 in 10,000 droprate, to buy it with that currency would be anywhere from 12,000 to 15,000 of those tokens.  It's, essentially, bad luck mitigation and the infusion acquired is account bound.

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

Who said anything about them not being rare drops anymore? For example Khan Ur's infusion can still be a rare drop one while also having an account bound version that costs 1000 chillis and 10000 volatile magic. I think it would make players want to farm the map a lot more to get multiple account bound ones for their character, but they could still have the option to purchase the bon accountbound one or get it as a rare drop.

When I said "having some rare drops in mmorpgs is fine" I've meant "rare drops that are just rare drops".

1k chillis and 10k volite magic is nothing -and I never focused on farming either- so that just further shows your perspective I won't agree with.

13 minutes ago, andreiblue.8231 said:

Also most people who have the infusions are the ones who spent real money buying gold with gems, very few actually farmed all that gold for them.

Stats that came out of thin air (to put it lightly), part 27341.

No, you don't know any of that, this is nothing more than your imaginary scenario.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Yes because circle farming the same map 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year is interesting content, instead of just getting a single daily token once a day for 15 minutes of playing an event and needing ~1k of them.

It'd also stop the whole TP barons controlling the market on infusions and artificially inflating the price to absurd values.

You don't get gold in just one same map. You have more options in comparison to just repeating the one same event for years every day like you're proposing above. So not only you can already grind it out (with gold), but also it can easly be more versatile than what you want.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Stats that came out of thin air (to put it lightly), part 27341.

No, you don't know any of that, this is nothing more than your imaginary scenario.

Occam's razor.

What's the simpler explanation?

Someone who spent literally thousands of hours circlefarming the most efficient farms for 18x infusions worth upwards of 3k gold each (coming out to 54k gold total)?
OR
Someone who converted gems to gold and bought the infusions they wanted?

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Occam's razor.
What's the simpler explanation?

Someone who spent literally thousands of hours circlefarming the most efficient farms for 18x infusions worth upwards of 3k gold each (coming out to 54k gold total)?
OR
Someone who converted gems to gold and bought the infusions they wanted?

hahaha. No, that's not it.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

You don't get gold in just one same map. You have more options then just repeating the one same event for years every day.

If you want maximum efficiency, you don't really have much in the way of options.

Do your daily fractals, weekly raids, and weekly strike CMs.  Even when I was  doing that (Minus strike CMs, they weren't out at the time) I was only making roughly 360 gold a month and that' with using mystic forge and gw2 efficiency telling me what is profitable to convert vs sell.  This was about 15 hours a week of playitime. (8 hours in raids, 7 in fractals).  This is why I see your "Just farm gold, lol" argument to be pretty poor.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

hahaha. No, that's not it.

Here's a  hint: Humans like the path of least resistance and will take it when it's available..

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Here's a  hint: Humans like the path of least resistance and will take it when it's available..

Occam's razor is about picking hypothesis with the smalles number of assumptions. All you're doing here is assuming. It's silly how it became the ""smart way"" (or so some think) of saying "if I'm not capable of doing something [in this case: getting x gold ingame by whatever means], the most probable truth is that nobody is". This is not what it means.

Here's the hint: all you are doing is still blindly guessing in a blatantly clear effort to get the result you want. This is not how it works though.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Occam's razor is about picking hypothesis with the smalles number of assumptions. All you're doing here is assuming. It's silly how it became the ""smart way"" of saying "if I'm not capable of doing something [in this case: getting x gold ingame by whatever means], the most probable truth is that nobody is". This is not what it means.

Here's the hint: all you are doing is still blindly guessing to get the result you want. This is not how it works though.

No I know basic human  psychology, Sobx.

There are definitely fewer people who would farm that absurd amount of gold for 10x copies of their infusions to look like a glowing lightbulb over people who'd just swipe the credit card after payday and buy them that way.

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

No I know basic human  psychology, Sobx.

There are definitely fewer people who would farm that absurd amount of gold for 10x copies of their infusions to look like a glowing lightbulb over people who'd just swipe the credit card after payday and buy them that way.

You went from loosely throwing around irrelevant "occam's razor" into "I know basic human psychology". "Basic human psychology" doesn't matter for what you wrote above, but if you really know it, then it should be more than obvious that there are indeed people that will simply grind away for whatever time they want -as if that's the only/best way- and just those few existing people that are willing to do it is enough because you don't see more than a few of them here and there.

Again: you're making up stuff as you go in order to reach the conclusion you already decided to hold. And you -probably- rightfully said that "there are fewer people who would do that". But nobody said a lot of people do it. Not me, not you. We both know there's not a lot of people spamming infusions. So... 🙄

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

And if you want the maths:
 

For the sake of simplicity here, I'm going to just assume that the lowest possible price on the wiki for a PvE infusion is the one that can be bought 10x.  And, as far as I know ,the maximum efficiency for farming a map is still only ~40g an hour.  How long would it take someone, like me, to get 1x and then 10x of each infusion?

Let's put this up to 25 hours of playtime a week. 15 of those hours being dedicated to what I said before (+360 gold in a month from material conversion) and fractals being ~15 gold a day.  A month is 28 days (one full lap around the  login rewards). 780 gold in 28 days.  Now the most efficient farm for the next 10 hours means another 400g a week.  This comes out to 1600g a month.  Totals 2,380g a month.

With just farming ingame, how long would it take to get 1 or 10 of a specific infusion?

Infusion / Cost	Time to Get	Days
Chak	Time for 1	26 Days
2200.0714	Time for 10	259 Days
Liquid Aurilium	Time for 1	13 Days
1075	Time for 10	126 Days
Q. Bee	Time for 1	51 Days
4300.8686	Time for 10	506 Days
F. Confetti	Time for 1	46 Days
3910.0001	Time for 10	460 Days
Crystal	Time for 1	18 Days
1499.1337	Time for 10	176 Days
Khan Ur	Time for 1	28 Days
2400.0094	Time for 10	282 Days
Frost Legion	Time for 1	28 Days
2370.39	Time for 10	279 Days
Jorm. L. Eye	Time for 1	16 Days
1378.213	Time for 10	162 Days
Jorm. R. Eye	Time for 1	17 Days
1453.213	Time for 10	171 Days
Prim. L. Eye	Time for 1	16 Days
1379.638	Time for 10	162 Days
Prim. R. Eye	Time for 1	17 Days
1454.638	Time for 10	171 Days
Dragonvoid	Time for 1	105 Days
8888	Time for 10	1046 Days

And what if I just had a job that paid me $7.50 USD an hour?  For the sake of living, I'm going to say only 30% of the income from this is used on the game.  That still comes out to (With the same hours per week and days per month)  to $750 usd or $225 usd a month to dump.   At current conversion cost (As of today at 2:51 AM UTC) $1 USD = 80 gems = 15g 56s 80c.  This means the monthly income of this min. wage whale is 3540g 60s

If you take a peak at the table, and compare the completion times, it shows that whaling out is far faster, easier, and simpler.

Infusion/cost	Time	Days to get
Chak	Time for 1	17 Days
2200.0714	Time for 10	174 Days
Liquid Aurilium	Time for 1	9 Days
1075	Time for 10	85 Days
Q. Bee	Time for 1	34 Days
4300.8686	Time for 10	340 Days
F. Confetti	Time for 1	31 Days
3910.0001	Time for 10	309 Days
Crystal	Time for 1	12 Days
1499.1337	Time for 10	119 Days
Khan Ur	Time for 1	19 Days
2400.0094	Time for 10	190 Days
Frost Legion	Time for 1	19 Days
2370.39	Time for 10	187 Days
Jorm. L. Eye	Time for 1	11 Days
1378.213	Time for 10	109 Days
Jorm. R. Eye	Time for 1	11 Days
1453.213	Time for 10	115 Days
Prim. L. Eye	Time for 1	11 Days
1379.638	Time for 10	109 Days
Prim. R. Eye	Time for 1	12 Days
1454.638	Time for 10	115 Days
Dragonvoid	Time for 1	70 Days
8888	Time for 10	703 Days

 

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Edited September 8, 2022 by Sir Alymer.3406
Copying the actual right table this time, for reals, guys. Take 2..

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You went from loosely throwing around irrelevant "occam's razor" into "I know basic human psychology". "Basic human psychology" doesn't matter for what you wrote above, but if you really know it, then it should be more than obvious that there are indeed people that will simply grind away for whatever time they want -as if that's the only/best way- and just those few existing people that are willing to do it is enough because you don't see more than a few of them here and there.

Again: you're making up stuff as you go in order to reach the conclusion you already decided to hold. And you -probably- rightfully said that "there are fewer people who would do that". But nobody said a lot of people do it. Not me, not you. We both know there's not a lot of people spamming infusions. So... 🙄

I'm suggesting that the 40+ alt accounts you'd see at something like pinata and the amount of people who sit and farm aren't the norm.  People will, on average, whale out over just farming normally especially since efficiently farming is actually just a waste of time considering the monetary gain.

[Ashen.2907]

I understand the desire, but why is it a matter of, "should be," rather than, " I want?"

[Sobx.1758]

45 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

If you take a peak at the table, and compare the completion times, it shows that whaling out is far faster, easier, and simpler.

It doesn't matter what is easier or faster, stop dodging what I wrote. Not only that, but you've also just proved to yourself that some of the people playing for 10 years could rather easly reach those numbers. And that only considering they're actually doing what you want them to do. And agian, a lot of the reachest players don't.

All you do is still assuming. You come up with a table clearly showing someone can farm it up in less than a year, so for some reason you try to make it equivalent of "it doesn't happen" 🤦‍♂️ That sure is convenient assumption to make, but it is also not real. And -psst- still not what occam's razor means.

 

And hey, here's another hint, which can help you work it out: if you believe what you're writing above then in your opinion gold to gems exchange shouldn't have any right to exist nor be used by anyone. You know, because it's easier to buy gems with money than it is to turn gold into gems, so -because you think that's what occam's razor is (but lets be absolutely clear: it isn't)- we should clearly conclude people are not turning gold to gems. 🤔

36 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I'm suggesting that the 40+ alt accounts you'd see at something like pinata and the amount of people who sit and farm aren't the norm.  People will, on average, whale out over just farming normally especially since efficiently farming is actually just a waste of time considering the monetary gain.

Alt accounts have nothing to do with what was being said above. It's like you understand your take was a huge stretch (at best), so you pivot into something else instead. Nobody said here anything about farming drops on alt accounts, stop trying to cloud what you're saying and what I am responding with adding new variants of the situations while constantly dropping previous ones.

But here's the idea: people having 40+(?) alt accounts farming a pinata are already "whaling out" more than people just casually slapping pinata on their only account. So how is this "on average"? If anything, it shows the opposite of what you want. On ACTUAL average people are fine with just farming an event for a chance of the "lucky roll" than whale out on 40 PoF expansions to increase their chances 40 times.

But again, it was never about the alts in the first place.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Labjax.2465]

Just throwing this out there, what about RNG protection kind of thing instead? "as you approach X number of times account completed this meta, your chance of getting this drop steadily increases until it is, after a very high number of completions, guaranteed." But only guaranteed once, after you get the drop once it goes back to default % and stays there for your account forever. Or maybe the % can improve again, but the 2nd time it takes significantly longer to reach the point where it's guaranteed.

The main benefit I see of this approach over "purchased with currencies" is that the knowledge of how far away you are from it stays hidden, unless you're planning on farming gold to straight up buy one from TP or something. The reason I think that may be a benefit in this situation is if they were to make a way to buy chak infusion direct, for example, it would prob be some absolutely depressingly enormous amount of currency to match the rarity and might demotivate people to pursue it at all once it's actually put in perspective for them how rare it is.

As unhealthy as I think this gambling-adjacent super rare infusion drops stuff is, I'm doubtful that it'd still work as a motivator for getting people to play the content if done in the kind of way you suggest and doing so might actually put people off the whole system.

I'm open to if you have any thoughts that counter that way of looking at it.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It doesn't matter what is easier or faster, stop dodging what I wrote. Not only that, but you've also just proved to yourself that some of the people playing for 10 years could rather easly reach those numbers. And that only considering they're actually doing what you want them to do. And agian, a lot of the reachest players don't.

All you do is still assuming. You come up with a table clearly showing someone can farm it up in less than a year, so for some reason you try to make it equivalent of "it doesn't happen" 🤦‍♂️ That sure is convenient assumption to make, but it is also not real. And -psst- still not what occam's razor means.

Not dodging kitten.  It completely matters what's easier and faster.  Learn basic human psychology and game design.  Players will almost always take the path of least resistance to achieve their goal.  Disprove my maths, please.  Show me how it's the path of least resistance to farm gold and how an overwhelming majority who look like the lightbulb infusion nonsense are the ones farming gold.  Even if I got 5 gold a day, I still wouldn't have enough as people have these other things called 'goals' and there are far more practical things to use gold on than an overpriced  glorified stat infusion.  Things like legendary ar mor, trinkets, ascended equipment, home instance nodes, etc. 

The table clearly demonstrates that it's faster, easier, and the path of least resistance to just buy the the infusions with only 20% of a minimum wage job. (Hint, it's also still lucrative even if you only spend 10% of min wage income on gems)

Quote

And hey, here's another hint, which can help you work it out: if you believe what you're writing above then in your opinion gold to gems exchange shouldn't have any right to exist nor be used by anyone. You know, because it's easier to buy gems with money than it is to turn gold into gems, so -because you think that's what occam's razor is (but lets be absolutely clear: it isn't)- we should clearly conclude people are not turning gold to gems. 🤔

 

It's almost like when more people dump gems into the market, the price becomes more appealing to buy gems with gold. 🤔  As if that's by  design, thus balancing out the big gem dumps that happen on occasion from people with more money than time.

Also your argument was "We don't want more lightbubls" and I (and others) countered with "Those guys just whale out to buy their infusions".  You, then, in t urn, decide to pick up on multiple other points I've made in there to try to get me in some sort of fallacy or something else while completely ignoring the point I'm trying to make.  It's whatever though, friend. You do you.

 

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The main difference I see between this and your version is the overal number of infusions increases when everyone get it, so we have more obnoxiously glowing bubbles running around. Meanwhile if you want to seriously "farm it up" then you already can 🤷‍♂️

 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Just throwing this out there, what about RNG protection kind of thing instead? "as you approach X number of times account completed this meta, your chance of getting this drop steadily increases until it is, after a very high number of completions, guaranteed." But only guaranteed once, after you get the drop once it goes back to default % and stays there for your account forever. Or maybe the % can improve again, but the 2nd time it takes significantly longer to reach the point where it's guaranteed.

The main benefit I see of this approach over "purchased with currencies" is that the knowledge of how far away you are from it stays hidden, unless you're planning on farming gold to straight up buy one from TP or something. The reason I think that may be a benefit in this situation is if they were to make a way to buy chak infusion direct, for example, it would prob be some absolutely depressingly enormous amount of currency to match the rarity and might demotivate people to pursue it at all once it's actually put in perspective for them how rare it is.

As unhealthy as I think this gambling-adjacent super rare infusion drops stuff is, I'm doubtful that it'd still work as a motivator for getting people to play the content if done in the kind of way you suggest and doing so might actually put people off the whole system.

I'm open to if you have any thoughts that counter that way of looking at it.

RNG protection is something I advocate for.  A player shouldn't be constantly fighting bad seed after bad seed and spending literal years farming the same  event with nothing to show.

I also see your point.  No one would want to spend 100k of a currency buying an infusion, probably best to leave the protection hidden in some regard.