Keep playing thief or reroll?

[sub.4960]

I'm a relatively new player and I've mostly played thief so far. I enjoy playing it in PvE but recently I tried doing PvP and my experience was pretty awful. The class is more squishy than anything I have ever seen and the gameplay is also completely different than what is usually expected from the Rogue class in MMOs. The fact that thiefs can't duel people 1v1 is just strange to me. 

 

Basically I don't know if I should stick with it and try to improve or just switch to something else. To me it looks like this class is not well-balanced in it's current state. I'm sure people are able to make it work but a new player will never be able to learn without external guides because it's such an outdated, quirky and squishy class.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

PVP doesn't require you to level up or gear up.  You can roll as many toons as you want for PVP without having to stop playing Thief in PVE and WvW.

[Kolly.9872]

First thing.. decide what is your role in pvp and then pick or build your class to fullfill that role..

 

[Sifu.9745]

Thief is actually very good at dueling, depends on spec and builds, of course. I guess you play with D/P or Sw/x Power Thief? just don't. You really need a lot of experience and patience to get good at it. If you just want an easy and relaxing time with Thief in PvP  try condition double daggers + Shortbow Daredevil, Carrion Amulet. You win most 1 vs 1 (in unranked PvP, in ranked is way harder), thx to million dodges. I am a casual PvPer, only playing unranked, and i melt faces with my condi D/D Daredevil. There is a room for mistakes. Survavability is just awesome. Another one is condi Daredevil or core P/D and the easiest and most beginner friendly one (condi again) from metabattle, double pistols: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Condi_P/P_Blind_Spammer

If you really want to play a Power Thief and don't wanna play a glass cannon role than your only option is Deadeye Rifle. Simple playstyle, a bit squishy sometimes, but you can simply leave a battle if things are turning bad for you. If you are more experienced, than condi Scepter Specter elite spec is probably the best one: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Specter_-_Condition_Scepter

If you don't have expansions yet and you can only play core Thief, than condition Pistol/Dagger might work just fine for you.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Sifu.9745

[ASP.8093]

1v1ing in PvP can be tricky to learn because of the massive performance disparities between builds depending on their roles. Some builds are designed to be very hard to kill one-on-one but only wear you down gradually. Some builds have massive burst dps potential but crumble quickly without supports. Some builds spam a lot of CC and can easily fluster new players.

A standard Dagger/Pistol Daredevil build is really focused on hit-and-run value over dueling potential. But Rifle Deadeye, Power Specter, and Condi Pistol/Dagger can all 1v1 pretty effectively while maintaining decent roaming and "+1" capability as well.

[Ashgar.3024]

Look up guides on what the different roles are in PvP in this game then decide which you want to fill.

 

Yes Thief is squishy and isn't the best duelist (its not undoable against most builds though) but that's because the game is built around team objectives and not team deatchmatch unlike for example WoW Arena.

 

So nah it doesn't play like a WoW Rogue and is much closer to a Jungler in League for example. Rengar/Khazix/Kayn/Kindred style junglers specifically. You're there to control map objectives and swing fights in your teams favor and you have all the mobility and burst to do so. These character builds are called "Roamers" in this game.

 

If what you really enjoy is dueling and shutting people down from playing the game like a WoW Rogue, Spellbreaker is probably more down your alley, or Catalyst.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[thaniretouni.4762]

On 9/10/2022 at 2:57 AM, sub.4960 said:

I'm a relatively new player and I've mostly played thief so far. I enjoy playing it in PvE but recently I tried doing PvP and my experience was pretty awful. The class is more squishy than anything I have ever seen and the gameplay is also completely different than what is usually expected from the Rogue class in MMOs. The fact that thiefs can't duel people 1v1 is just strange to me. 

 

Basically I don't know if I should stick with it and try to improve or just switch to something else. To me it looks like this class is not well-balanced in it's current state. I'm sure people are able to make it work but a new player will never be able to learn without external guides because it's such an outdated, quirky and squishy class.

You right. Thief has been nerfed to the ground, especially in WvW where basically serves as a clown that stealths and only kills people who are either afk or play weak builds. You cannot join zergs anymore (staff daredevil nerfs), you cannot really 1v1 as anymore as more classes have gained mobility whilst maintaining insane blocks etc (willbender for example or even virtuoso). It all started when the put backstab on cd imo. Anyway, better play elementalist or guardian. They are always usefull in every aspect of the game and Anet very rarely nerfs them compared to the rest of the classes at least.

Edited September 13, 2022 by thaniretouni.4762

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

You right. Thief has been nerfed to the ground, especially in WvW where basically serves as a clown that stealths and only kills people who are either afk or play weak builds. You cannot join zergs anymore (staff daredevil nerfs), you cannot really 1v1 as anymore as more classes have gained mobility whilst maintaining insane blocks etc (willbender for example or even virtuoso). It all started when the put backstab on cd imo. Anyway, better play elementalist or guardian. They are always usefull in every aspect of the game and Anet very rarely nerfs them compared to the rest of the classes at least.

This is the best time to be a thief in zergs. This is also the best time to have thieves around your zerg. 

[thaniretouni.4762]

are u talking about support specter coz that is kinda boring. At least for me, but you also need EoD

Edited September 14, 2022 by thaniretouni.4762

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I got to gold 2 on thief that i started playing some 3 weeks ago. Given my usual performance on my mains that's borderline broken.
The key to carry with thief is to understand two major rules:

1. Defensive skills and stats are good investment in pvp. Unlike pve, going full ham on damage is suicide. You'll be shut down in moments. Getting some max hp boosts from amulets, condi cleansing, stunbreaks and other get outta jail free cards is crucial. You'll also need some time to digest game's mechanics to get results. Things like revealed debuff, combo fields and finishers, value of certain stats (like vitality vs toughness vs healing power etc).

2. Kinda like in LoL - you win with objectives rather than kills. Kills are big ofc - crippling enemy team with numbers advantage is always great, but as thief your stealth and mobility can win you games with little need to fight. Decap their point, take a map objective, if things get hairy just run. Hit & Run tactics go a long way on this profession.



 

[kash.9213]

7 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

are u talking about support specter coz that is kinda boring. At least for me, but you also need EoD

Thief has always been good floating with a zerg. Even with other core traits, a decent health threshold and some life steal or leech with Control skills and modifiers was enough to keep up on that scale if you could feel the plotting so you could avoid nukes. Now, SA is even better for walking along with a moving fight. You have options to keep pace instead of having to break away from where your sides core is being nuked and your own field getting priority should make it easy to sequence SA traits. 

The only thing kind of boring about Specter is the Scepter main hand. The dual skills are alright but it's hard to vibe with that weapon. Other than that it's skill animations both in and out of Shroud and utilities move fluidly and it feels about as natural as playing old arcade games toggling Action cam at the right times. 

[thaniretouni.4762]

6 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Thief has always been good floating with a zerg. Even with other core traits, a decent health threshold and some life steal or leech with Control skills and modifiers was enough to keep up on that scale if you could feel the plotting so you could avoid nukes. Now, SA is even better for walking along with a moving fight. You have options to keep pace instead of having to break away from where your sides core is being nuked and your own field getting priority should make it easy to sequence SA traits. 

The only thing kind of boring about Specter is the Scepter main hand. The dual skills are alright but it's hard to vibe with that weapon. Other than that it's skill animations both in and out of Shroud and utilities move fluidly and it feels about as natural as playing old arcade games toggling Action cam at the right times. 

Yeah well, i never said it was unplayable but nobody wanted you 😄 At least most commanders in my server consider them leaches who could only pick up a person or two from enemy backlines while moving around.

[kash.9213]

40 minutes ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

Yeah well, i never said it was unplayable but nobody wanted you 😄 At least most commanders in my server consider them leaches who could only pick up a person or two from enemy backlines while moving around.

I don't buy that, I get invited pretty much every time I'm floating around a squad. I also don't hear commanders say any of that, it's mostly a bad take on the forums. If all you're doing is poking a couple of people on the back lines though, of course they'll think that of you and you probably should give up your seat on the squad to someone else. 

[thaniretouni.4762]

10 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I don't buy that, I get invited pretty much every time I'm floating around a squad. I also don't hear commanders say any of that, it's mostly a bad take on the forums. If all you're doing is poking a couple of people on the back lines though, of course they'll think that of you and you probably should give up your seat on the squad to someone else. 

Well, i manage myself thank you. Afterall he was the one coming to forums to ask for advice. Also, open tags ofc invite anything if there aren't many people online. There is no way on a Friday night the main commander will invite you when you play core thief, deadeye or daredevil. In the past daredevil staff had some value but not so much now. Also, you must not have much experience in WvW at least not in prior years, coz its not me or any individual that give the commander an opinion on the spot. Thieves were doing that to the backlines very often, especially the dagger pistol ones. At some point it was good, but since discord started being more of a theme decent zergs dont have such huge tails. Anyway...

 

Btw you never said anything why is the best time to be a thief in wvw. Show us two builds. one support (which is probably what you have in mind) and one aggressive. If there are significant differences than what I have tried so far I ll try them out and report back. I dont say a very experienced thief cannot kill anything. What i really meant is that experienced players of the same caliber will probably swallow thief these days even in 1v1s. At least i am not afraid  of thieves these days and i  kill a lot of them with ease while I also find it way harder to kill other classes as a thief.

Edited September 15, 2022 by thaniretouni.4762

[kash.9213]

5 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

Well, i manage myself thank you. Afterall he was the one coming to forums to ask for advice. Also, open tags ofc invite anything if there aren't many people online. There is no way on a Friday night the main commander will invite you when you play core thief, deadeye or daredevil. In the past daredevil staff had some value but not so much now. Also, you must not have much experience in WvW at least not in prior years, coz its not me or any individual that give the commander an opinion on the spot. Thieves were doing that to the backlines very often, especially the dagger pistol ones. At some point it was good, but since discord started being more of a theme decent zergs dont have such huge tails. Anyway...

 

Btw you never said anything why is the best time to be a thief in wvw. Show us two builds. one support (which is probably what you have in mind) and one aggressive. If there are significant differences than what I have tried so far I ll try them out and report back. I dont say a very experienced thief cannot kill anything. What i really meant is that experienced players of the same caliber will probably swallow thief these days even in 1v1s. At least i am not afraid  of thieves these days and i  kill a lot of them with ease while I also find it way harder to kill other classes as a thief.

I use the same basic power marauder or condi ritualist builds for specter, core, or deadeye templates. They might not invite you. They probably will invite most thieves because squads like numbers, especially on reset. If a commander is going to rage about builds after getting wiped a few times everyone knows what's up with that, and it's not because some thief underperformed.

I don't know where you're going about the back lines thing, you're kind of rambling. I said if that's all you're doing or capable of doing, of course a commander isn't going to be quick to pick you up. You don't need to be butt hurt about that. 

[thaniretouni.4762]

6 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I use the same basic power marauder or condi ritualist builds for specter, core, or deadeye templates. They might not invite you. They probably will invite most thieves because squads like numbers, especially on reset. If a commander is going to rage about builds after getting wiped a few times everyone knows what's up with that, and it's not because some thief underperformed.

I don't know where you're going about the back lines thing, you're kind of rambling. I said if that's all you're doing or capable of doing, of course a commander isn't going to be quick to pick you up. You don't need to be butt hurt about that. 

If i was dying as a thief I wouldnt even play the class. lmao. The thing is not dying but doing very little for the group. 😄

[kash.9213]

12 minutes ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

If i was dying as a thief I wouldnt even play the class. lmao. The thing is not dying but doing very little for the group. 😄

Then do something for your group besides poking people way away from the fight. You have build choices and you probably have squad and group options but you refuse to use what's available to you. Who exactly is supposed to invite you if you're not doing anything for them?

[Mincsk.6028]

On 9/13/2022 at 12:05 PM, kash.9213 said:

This is the best time to be a thief in zergs. This is also the best time to have thieves around your zerg. 

Lol, I guess if you count laying supply traps and marking zergs then stealth running away? But being useful in a fight you are not as a thief player.

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, Mincsk.6028 said:

Lol, I guess if you count laying supply traps and marking zergs then stealth running away? But being useful in a fight you are not as a thief player.

There's nothing funny about not trying, especially if the rest of your group is. You have a few solid templates to chose from, with build variation, especially in WvW and pve. Specter as support is fluid and responsive, especially in Action camera mode. If you've ever wanted to vibe daily with groups of different sizes as a thief, this is the time. 

[Mincsk.6028]

19 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

There's nothing funny about not trying, especially if the rest of your group is. You have a few solid templates to chose from, with build variation, especially in WvW and pve. Specter as support is fluid and responsive, especially in Action camera mode. If you've ever wanted to vibe daily with groups of different sizes as a thief, this is the time. 

Nah, the group I run with would throw my specter in subgroup 1 unsupported with the rangers and other non meta. You know unsupported are basically free bags for the enemy zerg or cloud. The server I play has map ques and bringing an underperforming class or spec takes that spot from another player that might be on current meta, your usefulness is actually hindering. Years of underdeveloped balance attempts have put thief way behind current meta in actual gameplay. (prob why you don't see to many thief players in wvw anymore)

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, Mincsk.6028 said:

Nah, the group I run with would throw my specter in subgroup 1 unsupported with the rangers and other non meta. You know unsupported are basically free bags for the enemy zerg or cloud. The server I play has map ques and bringing an underperforming class or spec takes that spot from another player that might be on current meta, your usefulness is actually hindering. Years of underdeveloped balance attempts have put thief way behind current meta in actual gameplay. (prob why you don't see to many thief players in wvw anymore)

Numbers and approach are going to decide things more than a rigid composition, and your approach as a thief might decide even a large fight if you can make things cascade. The other side also has to maintain their comp and normally if you take out a Firebrand or two or other support, the other side has to scramble at a pace that's going to be in your sides favor. Almost every Keep fight comes down to either being overrun by the attackers because the defending blob composition keeps crashing into them over and over trying to fight the blob itself, or, the defenders thin out the others sides support until you can see them pick up the pace because they're being dragged and stretched by your side into a final burn. 

Right now most builds can be pretty durable in large fights but Specter especially can hold it down in the core of a fight while also being one of the best to respond to and mitigate different parts of a fight. Even when I don't get an invite to a squad, I'll keep their people up and just try to stay out of their circles when they set up something. Your own fields take priority so you should be set in blob fights even un grouped. 

[Asur.9178]

Save your sanity, time, and efforts. Play something else. Your future you will thank you.

[Mincsk.6028]

20 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Numbers and approach are going to decide things more than a rigid composition, and your approach as a thief might decide even a large fight if you can make things cascade. The other side also has to maintain their comp and normally if you take out a Firebrand or two or other support, the other side has to scramble at a pace that's going to be in your sides favor. Almost every Keep fight comes down to either being overrun by the attackers because the defending blob composition keeps crashing into them over and over trying to fight the blob itself, or, the defenders thin out the others sides support until you can see them pick up the pace because they're being dragged and stretched by your side into a final burn. 

Right now most builds can be pretty durable in large fights but Specter especially can hold it down in the core of a fight while also being one of the best to respond to and mitigate different parts of a fight. Even when I don't get an invite to a squad, I'll keep their people up and just try to stay out of their circles when they set up something. Your own fields take priority so you should be set in blob fights even un grouped. 

The squad calls the cloud around it the "locals" and proceeds to unbag them mercilessly, 4kdr is pretty normal. You think you're doing something, but you're not. I enjoy the what if scenarios that make thief useful but in practice it's not. The only decent place thief has is in spvp and I would assume that has to do with the gear sets and the way thief scales. In wvw the cooldowns are just way to long to roam. I mean mech can shadowstep every 18 seconds + rocket boots x2 talk about mobility. It's rifle burst is insane and can pierce. I'll hard pass on thief until it gets very needed development attention. The wvw forum has a pole and thief is the least played wvw in that poll for a reason. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Mincsk.6028
pole isn't poll. And I looked and can't find the poll it's a few weeks ago and been buried or deleted.

[kash.9213]

4 hours ago, Mincsk.6028 said:

The squad calls the cloud around it the "locals" and proceeds to unbag them mercilessly, 4kdr is pretty normal. You think you're doing something, but you're not. I enjoy the what if scenarios that make thief useful but in practice it's not. The only decent place thief has is in spvp and I would assume that has to do with the gear sets and the way thief scales. In wvw the cooldowns are just way to long to roam. I mean mech can shadowstep every 18 seconds + rocket boots x2 talk about mobility. It's rifle burst is insane and can pierce. I'll hard pass on thief until it gets very needed development attention. The wvw forum has a pole and thief is the least played wvw in that poll for a reason. 

You already hard passed on thief.

Thief might be least played by a forum poll, but it's somehow the most complained about in that same WvW forum.