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[PvE] Balance Lead Update solidifies that power DPS and other DPS Guardian builds will continue to suffer for the next couple months


Falseprophet.1502

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2 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

The main advantage of Condi classes is that their conditions still tick if you have to do mechanics or cannot attack the boss for a bit.

Wrong. Damage dealt is damage dealt, regardless of how long it takes. The idea that condi classes suffer less than power when dealing w/ mechanics is total nonsense, and has been since 2015 (condi rework) when people started parroting this entirely incorrect take.

Here's an example:
Skill A) 10,000 strike damage instantly
Skill B) 10,000 burn damage over 10 seconds
Skill C) 10,000 bleed damage over 30 seconds
They all do the same damage.

Just because the condis continue to tick when you're not hitting the boss doesn't mean you're not losing the same amount of dps for it. The difference is that, for power builds, time spent not attacking the boss is felt immediately, but for condi builds, it's felt over the next 10, 15, 30, whatever amount of seconds your avg condi application is.

The real advantage of condi specs is that the devs have intentionally balanced them to be stronger than power on longer fights (or at least they've tried to do this). There are also some fights where running some condi builds is mandated, such as Vale Guardian for the split phase.

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30 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

I agree to an extent. The issue is if you count every support utility the class can possibly access, that will be impossible to balance. Take another class, mesmer. Should the teleport or the projectile reflection be counted against every dps build? How about all possible CC from utilities, condi removal and so on. Are we going to deduct 500-1,000 dps from all guardian dps builds cuz you can slot Stand Your Ground or FmW? I am not saying the answer to this is simple, but it is very difficult to factor this into dps output. 

I would give higher value to higher burst and aoe, which DH does have a lot of. If DH is around 35-36k, that would be fair. Condi WB 37k. Power WB needs a full rework. Its issues are far beyond parsing. 

Oh, yeah, nickeling and diming a profession (or even just an elite specialisation) for every support ability they could possibly have isn't fair. But it's probably reasonable to take into account that some builds have a bit more flexibility to adjust to specific combat circumstances than others, even if actualising that flexibility also comes at a price.

Heck, under the current balance regimen, I'd probably put power DH and condi WB at higher numbers than you cite (not sure I agree regarding power WB, but if power DH is functional, it's probably not a big deal if power WB is more of an open world/PvP build for a while, particularly since "condi" guardians are generally actually hybrids anyway). Mind you, now that they've recognised that they shouldn't balance builds based on optimal scenarios and rotations, we'll probably start to see some of the more difficult or disruption-susceptible builds break the historical 40K ceiling in the benchmarks as they get rebalanced according to the new philosophy.

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12 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

Wrong. Damage dealt is damage dealt, regardless of how long it takes. The idea that condi classes suffer less than power when dealing w/ mechanics is total nonsense, and has been since 2015 (condi rework) when people started parroting this entirely incorrect take.

Here's an example:
Skill A) 10,000 strike damage instantly
Skill B) 10,000 burn damage over 10 seconds
Skill C) 10,000 bleed damage over 30 seconds
They all do the same damage.

Just because the condis continue to tick when you're not hitting the boss doesn't mean you're not losing the same amount of dps for it. The difference is that, for power builds, time spent not attacking the boss is felt immediately, but for condi builds, it's felt over the next 10, 15, 30, whatever amount of seconds your avg condi application is.

The real advantage of condi specs is that the devs have intentionally balanced them to be stronger than power on longer fights (or at least they've tried to do this). There are also some fights where running some condi builds is mandated, such as Vale Guardian for the split phase.

Generally speaking, most MMOs do indeed balance around burst damage. The reason is burst dps can be extremely useful and taking put high priority adds. Useful as well if the boss has invulnerability phases, as you can push much more damage in these short windows. Usually this does not come at a high penalty; around 3-5%.  And Anet does follow this logic, evident by condi dps typically parse higher.

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9 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Oh, yeah, nickeling and diming a profession (or even just an elite specialisation) for every support ability they could possibly have isn't fair. But it's probably reasonable to take into account that some builds have a bit more flexibility to adjust to specific combat circumstances than others, even if actualising that flexibility also comes at a price.

Heck, under the current balance regimen, I'd probably put power DH and condi WB at higher numbers than you cite (not sure I agree regarding power WB, but if power DH is functional, it's probably not a big deal if power WB is more of an open world/PvP build for a while, particularly since "condi" guardians are generally actually hybrids anyway). Mind you, now that they've recognised that they shouldn't balance builds based on optimal scenarios and rotations, we'll probably start to see some of the more difficult or disruption-susceptible builds break the historical 40K ceiling in the benchmarks as they get rebalanced according to the new philosophy.

Personal opinion, keeping all dps between 36 and 40 should be ideal. They just need to adjust all builds up or down based on the factors Anet is utilizing to balance. Unfortunately we are still not there, but we are getting better.

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1 hour ago, otto.5684 said:

Personal opinion, keeping all dps between 36 and 40 should be ideal. They just need to adjust all builds up or down based on the factors Anet is utilizing to balance. Unfortunately we are still not there, but we are getting better.

Allowing professions to bench higher if it's harder to reach those numbers in real scenarios seems to be the new philosophy. There's been a big problem in the past that a benchmark that involved a precise rotation with dozens of steps including advanced semi-exploit techniques like stowing weapons to cancel animations*, a high APM, is melee, and is easily disrupted by mechanics gets treated the same as builds like rifle metanist that pewpew through everything. Which results in a large gap in actual performance when the typical player only gets about half the benchmark of the former in realistic scenarios, while little short of projectile hate or invulnerability slows a rifle metanist down much.

Depends on just what ArenaNet considers the ideal ballpark to be. But if rifle metanist damage is considered to be fine, more complex builds probably deserve better numbers in golem benchmarking, so that in practice the average raider can still compete with rifle metanist using those builds. If they don't scale metanist down, I expect some of those builds to comfortably clear 40k in benchmarks.

*Yeah, I know it's not actually violating anything, but speeding up your attacks by stowing and redrawing your weapons rather than just keeping them out still feels wrong.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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