Help me to understand (T4 HBL assignments)

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

If:

• RBL is generally disliked and seen as a disadvantage to have as HBL;
• Teams that place first in a match and move up a tier (winners) are assigned red HBL; and
• Teams that place third in a match and move down a tier (losers) are assigned green HBL; then

Why does the losing-est team in the entire ladder get perma-stuck on T4 RBL?

This is now three weeks in a row and counting on RBL, not to mention another week prior to the last World Restructuring beta week, and in my personal case, during the beta week as well.  That's 5 out of the last 6 weeks on RBL for me, all while coming in dead last (not even close scores).  I know rankings don't matter other than for matchmaking, but HBL assignments do affect the match experience.  Red HBL is not insurmountable, but it's certainly a handicap/disadvantage an already struggling team does not need.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the third place team in T4 to be assigned GBL if they must be stuck on anything week after week?

[Xenesis.6389]

They should randomize the home side a team gets at reset.

Good luck getting anet to check the cornerstone mode.

🤷‍♂️

[Junkpile.7439]

Red borderland is easiest because won't come there.

[TheGrimm.5624]

So for background, I like DBL. I like to attack it, I like to defend it. That said if players view it as the more challenging to have as home (for all the various reasons being dislike, harder to hold to don't understand to whatever reason they don't play) then agree could see that top places now becomes DBL(Green). Wouldn't be a bad month long test to see how it impacts placements. If Green is generally seen as top in tier, give them what people see as hardest to hold for whatever reason. Could be interesting. +5 from me for test.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

I mean this as an actual question, not a suggestion, but has ANet ever explained why they designed it for one DBL and two alpines each week, rather than just alternating weeks of having three of each?

 

I know the popularity of DBL is an issue, but if designing a game mode you want to be fair, making all the home bordlerlands the same seems obvious, and given this was a late addition, would be an easy way to keep a lot of complaints down.  Feels like I must be missing something.

[Xenesis.6389]

11 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I mean this as an actual question, not a suggestion, but has ANet ever explained why they designed it for one DBL and two alpines each week, rather than just alternating weeks of having three of each?

 

I know the popularity of DBL is an issue, but if designing a game mode you want to be fair, making all the home bordlerlands the same seems obvious, and given this was a late addition, would be an easy way to keep a lot of complaints down.  Feels like I must be missing something.

Long story short...

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Poll-27-June-Simultaneous-Borderlands/6228777

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Long story short...

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Poll-27-June-Simultaneous-Borderlands/6228777

Oh that was fascinating, thank you!

 

As an aside, do you have a tip for search the forums?  I tried to search for the prior poll on whether to keep DBL, and couldn't find anything (it either timed out, or gave random threads).

[Custodio.6134]

Tbh: red bl is not as bad as ppl make it seem to be. 

Most of this is most likely the result of improper utilization/understanding of the map mechanics. 

Yes, the ways are long and the map is huge and cluttered. However, shrines as example heavily reduce those distances (if ppl would use them). 

The lords are way harder to cap due to very annoying mechanics (esp. Air keep and middle keep), which is an advantage of defenders. 

So having red bl is overall an advantage to the red team/defenders, which ironically is the team that won the previous Matchup. 

 

My guess is, that ppl didn't understand how to handle red bl when it came out and never even tried to understand/utilize the map. This mindset got passed on every player (also the new ones) while being actually as bad as ppl claim it to be. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

5 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Oh that was fascinating, thank you!

 

As an aside, do you have a tip for search the forums?  I tried to search for the prior poll on whether to keep DBL, and couldn't find anything (it either timed out, or gave random threads).

The search engine sucks.  It is absolute young cat.  
 

But generally, having some form of date range helps.    Not as helpful to new people without some reference though… 🤷

Edited September 12, 2022 by Strider Pj.2193

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I mean this as an actual question, not a suggestion, but has ANet ever explained why they designed it for one DBL and two alpines each week, rather than just alternating weeks of having three of each?

TL;DR this forum community nearly killed off WvW and luckily we have this compromise.

Anyway I do agree that it should be randomized somehow, either color or who get DBL (ie there could be a blue DBL and red ABL).

[Xenesis.6389]

8 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Oh that was fascinating, thank you!

 

As an aside, do you have a tip for search the forums?  I tried to search for the prior poll on whether to keep DBL, and couldn't find anything (it either timed out, or gave random threads).

It's from the old forums so you wouldn't find it searching here, it's on an archive site.

I have some of the devs bookmarked so I can quickly find posts on subjects like this. Like McKenna Berdrow was our wvw dev for about two years and she was around when they did all the changes for skirmish and rewards and all the polls.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/McKenna-Berdrow-2759/showposts

Here's the borderlands poll

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Poll-14-June-Desert-Borderlands-Closed/6212591

Also Tyler Bearce was a temporary wvw dev during that time and he also had some posts in regards to the desert beta, the polls and linking.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Tyler-Bearce-3427/showposts

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/Welcome-to-the-Desert-Borderlands-Stress-Test

It was an interesting time 2016-2017, we had the most dev interaction during it, then jan 2018 and the world restructuring announcement came and everything went dark.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

45 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

It's from the old forums so you wouldn't find it searching here, it's on an archive site.

I have some of the devs bookmarked so I can quickly find posts on subjects like this. Like McKenna Berdrow was our wvw dev for about two years and she was around when they did all the changes for skirmish and rewards and all the polls.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/McKenna-Berdrow-2759/showposts

Here's the borderlands poll

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Poll-14-June-Desert-Borderlands-Closed/6212591

Also Tyler Bearce was a temporary wvw dev during that time and he also had some posts in regards to the desert beta, the polls and linking.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Tyler-Bearce-3427/showposts

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/Welcome-to-the-Desert-Borderlands-Stress-Test

It was an interesting time 2016-2017, we had the most dev interacting during it, then jan 2018 and the world restructuring announcement came and everything went dark.

Thank you!  (Both for doing the legwork, and for making me feel better about not finding them myself!)

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Whether Desert home BL is an advantage or disadvantage is certainly debatable.  But the map differences aren't just limited to DBL.  EBG is an asymmetric map.  The Wiki suggests that red garrison is the most challenging to defend, while green's is the easiest.

Regardless, there's no ignoring the inconsistency within the mode's own internal logic: Right now, both winning teams (those moving up a tier), and the third place team in T4 (the absolute bottom of the WvW ladder), are assigned Red.  I don't know if the latter is always like that, but it has been for the past three weeks and counting in the current link.  If DBL is an advantage, it makes no sense for winning teams to get it the following week.  If it's a disadvantage, it makes no sense for the weakest team in WvW to be stuck on it week after week.

[Chaba.5410]

What you bring up is definitely a long-term criticism because it's a map that players try to avoid.  I personally think GreenBL as Desert should be given a try sometime.

[Noc Rubu.5804]

On 9/12/2022 at 6:30 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

Tbh: red bl is not as bad as ppl make it seem to be. 

Most of this is most likely the result of improper utilization/understanding of the map mechanics. 

Yes, the ways are long and the map is huge and cluttered. However, shrines as example heavily reduce those distances (if ppl would use them). 

The lords are way harder to cap due to very annoying mechanics (esp. Air keep and middle keep), which is an advantage of defenders. 

So having red bl is overall an advantage to the red team/defenders, which ironically is the team that won the previous Matchup. 

 

My guess is, that ppl didn't understand how to handle red bl when it came out and never even tried to understand/utilize the map. This mindset got passed on every player (also the new ones) while being actually as bad as ppl claim it to be. 

I still have a hard time getting stopped by twigs in the ground ...mechanics! hah

[Custodio.6134]

1 hour ago, Soupeod.5714 said:

I still have a hard time getting stopped by twigs in the ground ...mechanics! hah

that´s not a mechanic tho, that´s just plain dumb game design

[TheGrimm.5624]

17 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

that´s not a mechanic tho, that´s just plain dumb game design

 

A joke in the guild is that the artist that put some of those in direct path also added a counter into it and it emails them each morning with the number of people that tripped on it. Though I think pocket raptors still hold the highest kill count even if that limb isn't a death sentence most of the time. Hmm... wonder if we could get a tactivator that unleashed a couple of hundred pocket raptors in the lords room on pull. May have to write that one up.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

3 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

A joke in the guild is that the artist that put some of those in direct path also added a counter into it and it emails them each morning with the number of people that tripped on it. Though I think pocket raptors still hold the highest kill count even if that limb isn't a death sentence most of the time. Hmm... wonder if we could get a tactivator that unleashed a couple of hundred pocket raptors in the lords room on pull. May have to write that one up.

The hit to frame rates would surely hinder the invaders!

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 9/12/2022 at 3:02 AM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

If:

• RBL is generally disliked and seen as a disadvantage to have as HBL;
• Teams that place first in a match and move up a tier (winners) are assigned red HBL; and
• Teams that place third in a match and move down a tier (losers) are assigned green HBL; then

Why does the losing-est team in the entire ladder get perma-stuck on T4 RBL?

This is now three weeks in a row and counting on RBL, not to mention another week prior to the last World Restructuring beta week, and in my personal case, during the beta week as well.  That's 5 out of the last 6 weeks on RBL for me, all while coming in dead last (not even close scores).  I know rankings don't matter other than for matchmaking, but HBL assignments do affect the match experience.  Red HBL is not insurmountable, but it's certainly a handicap/disadvantage an already struggling team does not need.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the third place team in T4 to be assigned GBL if they must be stuck on anything week after week?

RBL is a odd designed map. too many heights where u drop to death easily, advantagous position to defend for green and blue side on air/fire keeps  - and worst, the spawn lies behind the north camp, so the way to the garrison (stoic) keep is quite long for defenders

tiers have zero value. it doesn't matter if u "win" ppt or not. it cycles through anyways, and all 2 months happen re-linkings for the server-pairs who eliminated all the pointless ratings

 

but yeah, in the current system it kinda would make sense to give the lower activity server the "better" borders. then again, the whole ppt system is kinda problematic and could use a rework

[TheGrimm.5624]

Ok now I am just feeling geeky. If they were to run a test and swap just red and green assignments, how long do people think a test would need to be run to understand how it impacts things? Just curious. Personally think we would need to see a three week run to understand impacts.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

you'd have to run a test kinda for a whole linking, to see how ppl behave with it. but in the end ppt doesn't matter and likely RBL would still (as it is now on 90% of servers) be the /by far/ lowest activity map

yet ppt is often decided by offhours ppt zergs. like those random 40 ppl that circle through keeps at 1am till 10am. ppl would do that stuff either way, so notsure if it had any impact outside of close matchups

i personally don't even give much about ppt numbers. artifically created win/loss scenarios without any point in doing them, and the "winning" server is just often the worse one with just way more players that ppt, ergo a big pve population.
like, ppt basically is making a point against what Wvw really is, a mpvp mode of a MMO game.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Well it's another week as Team Red--4 weeks in a row, and 6 of the last 7 weeks for me, all while coming in dead last in the entire WvW ladder (40+ victory points behind the other T4 teams last week).

Why is the dead last team in the mode always the same red color, with its DBL and EBG position, as the previous week's winner in any given tier?  Something tells me not even Anet has a good reason.

At a minimum, I think the two teams that don't change tiers in T1 and T4 should alternate colors.  In T1, they'd alternate between blue and green since the previous week's T2 winner would assume red.  In T4, they'd alternate between red and blue, since the previous week's T3 loser would assume green.

However, if there's any truth to the perception that red is somewhat more challenging while green is less so, the first place team in T1 ought to be red the next week, and the last place team in T4 ought to be green the next week.  A minor handicap for the top team and a minor assist for the bottom team as it were.

Otherwise, just totally randomize the color assignments.  It sucks being perma stuck on any color 7 out of 8 weeks of the match. 😕

Edited September 17, 2022 by Twilight Tempest.7584

[Sviel.7493]

The only true answer is that none of this was planned.  There weren't supposed to be 2 BLs, 1up1down was implemented way late in the game's life, etc.  It's all just the result of myriad, unplanned actions or short-term fixes with long-term consequences.

More interesting, to me at least, is the idea that DBL is more difficult to defend.  It does take slightly longer for a zerg to tele onto the map and run to the lord room of a keep so, if that's your plan, defense is definitely harder.  However, there is much more opportunity for scouts to hinder opposing zergs on DBL, the side keeps require multiple siege points, and so on.  Thus, for the type of defense I do, DBL is much, much better.  I'm almost completely ineffective on ABL due to the open map, camp placements, cheese siege spots and so on.

In short, I think the idea that DBL is harder to defend is just the zerglings and zerg captains complaining.  Wait a few days and they'll complain that DBL also gives defenders too much advantage.

That said, I don't think it would be a bad idea to ensure that the sides got switched around more often.  Personally, I'd love the idea of being red every week, but I imagine other players feel quite differently.

[Xenesis.6389]

DBL requires more scouts, has more sneaky places to siege, harder to use disables(NET south cliff for an example), requires more travel time, has more useless siege spots as most mortar and cannon placements are garbage and blocked with excess amount of platforms over gate areas, which actually goes along with their current philosophy of wanting fights to take place in objective more than outside them. Usually less players on the map so slower response to defend objectives, which actually makes ewp even more important on there.

 

Random color placement is obviously a needed option anyways.

[Rebuke.3176]

• Anet needs to 'switch it up' - just like they DID for the WALLS and EBG when they MOVED A FREAKIING TOWER!
•  Anet, we need some variety now,  so please move walls around AGAIN on EBG
• and start giving us the RED bl if we LOSE not WIN!