October 4 Balance Update Preview

[Celeste.9135]

49 minutes ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

While I'd like to thank you all for listening and I'm happy to hear that for now Gyros will remain the same functionally I feel like this comment... misses the mark on the actual feedback, which by and large seemed to be "We like Gyros mechanically as they are now please don't change them." It makes me worry that we'll be right back here in a few months when whatever new rework is proposed.

I don't know but to me it feels like wasting dev time and resources on trying to rework something that mechanically is sound (but may need more number tweaks in certain modes like WvW) instead of for example, reworking something like Deadeye who struggles to be relevant in PVE endgame outside of niche roles while also being controversial in WvW.

It will be interesting to see I guess, I can only hope if you do go through with a different rework to Gyros mechanically that they're more to the liking of Scrapper enjoyers.

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

 

Thanks Cal, 
     For the PVP side we need to ensure that this reversion will include the kinetic accelerator synergy to provide quickness right?   I didn't see it mentioned, but its basically the only thing that sustains scrappers lack lustre DPS.

Edited September 27, 2022 by shion.2084

[LordHT.8297]

What's the problem with stealthy gyros? Why are you guys nerfing this so hard?

Edited September 28, 2022 by Tiagoht.7549

[melodyspectrum.2980]

Thank you Anet 💗

[obastable.5231]

I think it's pretty bad to change 2 gyros and not all of them. Either change them all or keep them all as is until you figure out what you want to do. Please don't implement inconsistent design, even if only temporary. A gyro should function the same regardless of what type of gyro it is - either make them all wells or keep them all moving aoe's, please for the love of good design don't do this half and half nonsense.

[Bear on the job.6273]

Can we have a discussion about Shattered Aegis with Willbender? I know in the beta, the interaction was just silly, especially in WvW. But the solution (adding a 1sec cooldown to Shattered Aegis when Willbender is slotted)...as a developer myself, that's a bad kludge.

Why change the functionality of a trait in a core traitline because it interacts poorly with a completely new elite spec? Why not adjust Willbender Courage itself?

Add a 1sec cooldown to the Aegis application of Courage, or remove Aegis from Courage altogether. Or change the 1sec cooldown of Shattered Aegis to be target-specific, meaning it can still effect multiple allies in a single trigger, but would prevent rapid-fire application on the caster themselves.

[Spiral.3724]

Why change gyros at all? Why nerf stealth in WvW? It's a useable mechanic and part of commander's strategy. You've basically made it mediocre. There's no fun in making all skills okay-ish. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

 

Prudent and appreciated. 

[Coldtart.4785]

Now that you aren't doing the pointless change to scrapper how about nerfing the actual game breaking skill: med blaster?

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

2 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

 

Very good to hear.  I just hope the major takeaway from this wasn't  just uniqueness, I hope the takeaway was form, function, balance, movement, boons, support, stealth, damage etc.  For example is it good thing to have mass stealth?  What level of stealth do we want in WvW? How long should it last for roamers versus groups? etc.  I hope there is a roadmap for design and design philosophy with regards to WvW and PvP in the not too distant future.

[Pandanus.1360]

I was really looking forward for a scrapper rework cause im utterly bored playing the same build in the same meta for an eternity now (wvw obiouvsly heh). I hope other sustain options will be viable so I can play something else for a change

[Tanek.5983]

Aww. I was writing up an essay on why this change would be a bad thing to the feel of the spec and here you go fixing the problem before it even happens? Fine. Be that way. 🙂

Thank you very much for listening to the feedback on this one! 😁

[jul.7602]

What am I doing with 3 seconds of stealth on a 90 second cd?

[Caitmonster.9036]

Thank you for rethinking the gyros changes, Balance Team! So glad to know you guys have been keeping an eye on the feedback and have reacted appropriately.

[Belisaria.8136]

Just to re-iterate a comment I'm glad to already see in here a few times: As someone with thousands of hours on scrapper, thank you for reverting this change, but I really encourage not wasting any more time trying to fix something that isn't broken. How gyros currently work is the very core of the spec, and there is just no need for a "solution", not least when there are many other things that are in need of one. I hope that y'all will once again hear us on this and let gyros be as they are. Thanks again.

[Valisha.8650]

2 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

Would be nice if you also make the specter shroud nerf wvw and pvp only -_-

[roederich.2716]

Just hand scrapper to the guy who designed the mechanist and all engineers sorrows will be gone sooner than later

[Plushie Knight.4209]

2 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW...

The update is very appreciated, as is the news it brings.
From the perspective of a mainly PvE Scrapper player, that's a big relief. Even if gyros as a whole change some day, I'll be much happier if they're still a unique gameplay experience in some way.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Nice update. I think keeping Gyros mobile while making Defense Field a targeted cast is the correct choice; if there was one thing to change to be static, it was definitely Defense Field. A 5s mobile projectile denial that also gives stab on such a short cooldown that is so easy to rotate squad-wide made it incredibly unfun to fight against and *far* too valuable. Thank you for not backing down on this change. I also agree with your Purge Gyro change. Good stuff.

Sneak Gyro though, may have been too heavy-handed? It has a target cap, no? So 3 seconds of stealth for only 5 players that *also* has a visual indicator...it seems a bit harsh. It seems like you are either trying to perhaps remove its usage in WvW. While I do agree that the skill is *far* too strong in its current implementation, I suppose I'm finding it hard to justify using it with these changes. Maybe you just want to see other elites played instead, which is fair, but perhaps for the future you could consider a redesign of the skill. IMO the previous iteration of Sneak Gyro was so good because you could get so much stealth from it, but it had a lot of clear counterplay (killable perma-visible AI, a bit jerky with its movement so you had to be careful with your positioning). The Gyro change admittedly made the skill pure kitten by eliminating almost all of its counterplay.

[BATMAN.6794]

" For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update. "

so what you're saying is we listened to your feedback, but we don't care we still gonna make people mad for no reason. GG anet, if we wanted that we'd use the elixir B skill but we don't cuz it sucks, keep it how it is now, don't ground target it, just nerf the reflect on d field if you think that's too much, makes no sense to revert all of the changes except 1 of the most important skills...

[BluJasmine.2190]

3 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.

Ummm...isn't the purpose of stealth to be idk invisible??? If you make this skill that provides stealth have a visual indicator, you need to then make any skill that provides stealth in wvw also have a visual indicator (I'm looking at you, thief, mesmer, and ranger.). 

[cgMatt.5162]

4 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.

This deletes Sneak Gyro from the game mode with nothing in return. No one is going to run a 3s stealth elite with a 60s cooldown. If we at least kept the smoke field, maybe yeah.

This is bad because in comparison Smoke Cloud/Smoke Bomb are 20s cd and it is 3s stealth for 5 targets per blast on a regular smoke field. Thief has lower cooldowns and more access to smoke fields, so there are the comp options.

Edited September 27, 2022 by cgMatt.5162

[Dexy.5823]

A bit apprehensive here for the change to Gyros in the future. My two cents are that Gyros following the character IS THE thematic that you want/expect when you hear about scrappers. If you can improve on that, great, but to reduce/retract the theme of the class, ugh, you'll turn off a lot of players this way.

[Xenesis.6389]

Um yeah totally didn't see anet getting cold feet over those changes  🤭 🙄

called it

17 minutes ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

This deletes Sneak Gyro from the game mode with nothing in return. No one is going to run a 3s stealth elite with a 60s cooldown.

Veil is ground target 2sec stealth on a 72s cooldown, dramallama much?

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[stormemperor.3745]

4 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

TLDR: We are removing every tradeoff except necromancer shroud no utility.