The Real Reason Why Celestial Builds Are Broken.

[SleepyBat.9034]

Celestial stats are only part of the issue, the damage is a little too low to really be broken. Celestial builds only become an issue when you take into account Might, Might gives 30 power and condition damage per stack and you can reach a max of 25 which gives you +750 power and condition damage which pushes Celestial gear close to full dps stat like Berserker. So long as your build has good Might generation you can have a broken build because Celestial stats now have concentration.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Obviously the answer is to remove might from Aristocracy Runes.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Yeah, that's what people have been saying for a while, the concentration and expertise additions is what made it broken, because it can build 25 stacks of might, and maintain those stacks without any extra concentration on gear or runes, while classes using other stats have to sacrifice a lot if they want to build and maintain 25 stacks of might in a fight.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Obviously the answer is to remove might from Aristocracy Runes.

I thought the obvious answer was to delete thief?

[Svarty.8019]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I thought the obvious answer was to delete thief?

That's so obvious it's a given.

[patton the great.7126]

Personally I think mirage has 1 too many dodges....I'd like to live in a world where if mirage trys to dodge they get an auto -70% armor debuff. It is my scientific opinion that this would solve the celestial debate. Thank you for your time, #deletemirageplz

[Zyreva.1078]

Not entirely accurate, some (most?) cele builds can kill non cele/bunker builds just fine even without (much) might.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[LSD.4673]

Might's not why Celestial is broken, it's literally the reason Celestial is even an option. Without easy might generation, Celestial builds suck donkey kitten. You might as well be using Soldier stats.

Without Concentration and Expertise, Celestial was just another pointless stat combo. Now it has a place: making people whine on the forums.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Celestial shines on classes with good passive stat boosters and are able to shore up where it lacks.

The problem is that some skills were nerfed too hard in the Feb2020 patch for WvW. They've started to reverse that, so you'll see Cele start to become less of a problem.

[Bias.4306]

What are these overpowered Celestial builds so that I can avoid making one?

[Evenge.4067]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:56 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

I thought the obvious answer was to delete thief?

That's actually the answer to everything! 🤪

[Sahne.6950]

12 hours ago, Bias.4306 said:

What are these overpowered Celestial builds so that I can avoid making one?

• •  

This one right here is the pinacle of roaming currently. It wins every matchup. There is NOTHING that can beat it!(i am dead serious!)

even vallun mentions it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAorlFwAZisNGJe0W3NdA-z1IY1okvMysAKNEcfWqSaDA-w 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sleepwalker.1398]

14 hours ago, Bias.4306 said:

What are these overpowered Celestial builds so that I can avoid making one?

Oh cele is fine, just make one of these.
You got damage, condi and mobility.
Plus can down someone real quick if they don't react fast enough.
 

 

[Bern.9613]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

• •  

This one right here is the pinacle of roaming currently. It wins every matchup. There is NOTHING that can beat it!(i am dead serious!)

even vallun mentions it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAorlFwAZisNGJe0W3NdA-z1IY1okvMysAKNEcfWqSaDA-w 

Of course. A thief having to rethink a roaming build and they call for a nerf.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:56 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

I thought the obvious answer was to delete thief?

Sounds about right xD

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

• •  

This one right here is the pinacle of roaming currently. It wins every matchup. There is NOTHING that can beat it!(i am dead serious!)

even vallun mentions it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAorlFwAZisNGJe0W3NdA-z1IY1okvMysAKNEcfWqSaDA-w 

This build is beatable if you're good at timing knockdowns and fears for the end of dodges and you use skills to deny stealth where possible. That said it is really is dumb how strong it is, although it's not actually celestial that makes it strong, it's just as obnoxious on trailblazer too. I normally don't play it unless I'm fighting a cele harbinger or something like that, it's fair game at that point I figure. 

[Money.7218]

celestial is broken just because it has too much stat

 

np

[Sahne.6950]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:36 PM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

That said it is really is dumb how strong it is, although it's not actually celestial that makes it strong, it's just as obnoxious on trailblazer too.

If you think its beatable you havent paid close attention to the details.

take a close look at the rune and sigil choice.

With cele you have 96% mightduration. You sit on 25 might with this setup.  This would not be possible with trailblazer. The sigil of battle for example gives 5 might for TWENTY ONE SECONDS..... the sigil alone will sustain 15 might on you... with aristocracy you sit nice and comfy on 25 might.  Thus you reach the same conditiondamage as trailblazer, while also reaching the same powerdamage as a marauderbuild. The damageoutput of this is borderline stupid. Your stealthattacks hit up to 4,5k powerdamage and also 7k bleed. With trailblazer almost the entire powerdamage is missing.

Cele is 10 times stronger than trailblazer, FOR THIS SPECIFIC SETUP. The builds main focus is generating might.

Also i am 100% certain no fearspam in this world will be able to kill me with this. If anything inconvenient happens... this build can just leave with its permanent superspeed.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Oh yeah, you're 100% right here, we had a chat about our build choices for this on another thread. I guess I usually take the view that if cele is busted on something then odds are it's already strong on marauder/trailblazer too. 

 

The problem with boons is that celestial will always be OP with them and useless without them. Frankly I wonder if it wouldn't be better to remove might altogether (or change it to a flat % buff) then rebalance all skill power coefficients to compensate, keeping the balance of power roughly the same for most specs but reducing the power gain specifically for boon stacking builds like celestial. 

[Sahne.6950]

21 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

or change it to a flat % buff

i have been advocating for this alot.

 

builds that will be close to 3k power wont feel a diffrence at all. Conditionbuilds will see a minor nerf and cele builds would loose a significant ammount of offensive stats.

i see this as a win 😄

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Clownmug.8357]

So, some skill/trait that gave something like 5 seconds of might now does 7 seconds with the extra concentration, and people think that's why they lose fights to celestial builds?

Edited September 22, 2022 by Clownmug.8357

[crewthief.8649]

22 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Oh yeah, you're 100% right here, we had a chat about our build choices for this on another thread. I guess I usually take the view that if cele is busted on something then odds are it's already strong on marauder/trailblazer too. 

 

The problem with boons is that celestial will always be OP with them and useless without them. Frankly I wonder if it wouldn't be better to remove might altogether (or change it to a flat % buff) then rebalance all skill power coefficients to compensate, keeping the balance of power roughly the same for most specs but reducing the power gain specifically for boon stacking builds like celestial. 

Or we could just… leave it? I mean, we’re talking about a literal handful of people (roamers) that really use Celestial. Zerglings(pugs) aren’t running it because… well, because why would they? Guild groups aren’t running it because it isn’t optimized to any specific role. 

Celestial is only an issue if you’re the slowest in the zerg…

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

41 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Or we could just… leave it? I mean, we’re talking about a literal handful of people (roamers) that really use Celestial. Zerglings(pugs) aren’t running it because… well, because why would they? Guild groups aren’t running it because it isn’t optimized to any specific role. 

Celestial is only an issue if you’re the slowest in the zerg…

Definitely. Personally I don't like the fact that celestial is the best option for roaming when it's supposed to be a jack of all trades type armour, but I honestly don't care whether they did what I suggested or not. I just think that out of all the suggestions put forth, changing might to a flat % buff is probably a better change than removing the expertise and concentration from celestial.  

I personally think that most of the really problematic cele builds are strong not simply because of celestial gear but because of celestial gear plus other compounding profession balance issues. The build Sahne references is strong primarily because of the interaction between daredevil bound and the reworked shadow arts tree, it is already very strong on marauder and trailblazer, it just happens to be strongest on celestial for the reasons he mentions.

You could make a similar argument about celestial harbingers, elementalists of all elite flavours, willbenders, specters, etc etc: the base profession is already strong without celestial, celestial is just the icing on the cake.

[crewthief.8649]

34 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Definitely. Personally I don't like the fact that celestial is the best option for roaming when it's supposed to be a jack of all trades type armour, but I honestly don't care whether they did what I suggested or not. I just think that out of all the suggestions put forth, changing might to a flat % buff is probably a better change than removing the expertise and concentration from celestial.  

I personally think that most of the really problematic cele builds are strong not simply because of celestial gear but because of celestial gear plus other compounding profession balance issues. The build Sahne references is strong primarily because of the interaction between daredevil bound and the reworked shadow arts tree, it is already very strong on marauder and trailblazer, it just happens to be strongest on celestial for the reasons he mentions.

You could make a similar argument about celestial harbingers, elementalists of all elite flavours, willbenders, specters, etc etc: the base profession is already strong without celestial, celestial is just the icing on the cake.

Oh, you and I agree on the root-cause, I’m just not convinced that anything needs to be done about it. After all, we’re only talking about the tiniest fraction of the population “exploiting” this interaction.

However, as a counter-point to yours, while Celestial is made offensively viable because of might, Celestial is being used by roamers because of its improved sustain. No one is taking it for big damage numbers. There are only a handful of specs/builds that can even use Celestial while remaining at least somewhat offensively viable.

I suppose my position is that while it is an issue for a tiny fraction of the player-base, there are bigger fish to fry. That, and roamers have enough of the deck stacked against them, why not allow them something that helps offset that a bit? 

[Virdo.1540]

Adding concentration and expertise isnt the problem. 

 

Increasing the overall amount of stats is bad. They should have put Expertise&Conc into, but lower the overall stat amount to what it was before.