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Rev changes (PvP)?


Buran.3796
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Mallyx: small energy cost reductions across most of skills. Increase in resistance from Demonic Defiance from 1 to 2.

Vindicator: evade duration cut to 0.8 seconds, cost endurance reduced from 100 to 50. Energy Meld is now instant and changes its cost.

More nerfs in vigor traits.

Herald:  Dacronic Echo quickness replaced by migth.

BIG: legend swap activating sigils is back again.

 

   Thoughs: best condi Herald doesn't even uses Mallyx, i don't see that changes pushing the meta. Changes in Vindicator are good but will remain unused. Replacing quickness is fine but why might? We already self stack 25+...

   Edit: fantastic comeback of the legend swap procs...

 

 

 

Revenant

Condition revenant is in a similar position to grenade holosmith in PvP: a once-powerful build in the meta that fell out of favor after a few rounds of nerfs and is currently underperforming. The build's resistance sources were reduced significantly back when the boon still granted full condition immunity, but now that it only negates nondamaging conditions, we're bringing the durations back up.

Skills

  • Demonic Defiance: Increased resistance duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only.
  • Fiendish Tenacity: Increased resistance duration from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only. Increased base healing from 132 to 165 in PvP and WvW.
  • Spirit Boon: Increased resistance duration when invoking Mallyx from 1 second to 2 seconds in PvP only.
  • Echoing Eruption: Increased ammunition from 1 to 2 in PvP and WvW.
  • Pain Absorption: Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP only.
  • Call to Anguish: Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP only.

 

Herald

The recent update to Draconic Echo pushed power herald builds a bit over the top by granting easy access to a lot of quickness. The change was primarily targeted at PvE modes to make herald a viable source of group quickness, but it's clear that this isn't a healthy mechanic for competitive modes. Lingering facet passives is already a powerful effect, and we've changed the boon to might in competitive modes to bring the trait down to a more reasonable power level.

Traits

  • Draconic Echo: This trait now grants might instead of quickness in PvP and WvW.

 

Vindicator

The single dodge that vindicator has access to has been a long-standing point of negative feedback, and for this update we've adjusted the timing and endurance cost of the vindicator jump so it's more in line with regular dodges.

We've also made some small usability improvements to the vindicator's group stun break Awakening, increasing the range and removing the casting time.

  • Vindicator no longer consumes all endurance to dodge. Reduced endurance cost of dodging from 100 to 50. Reduced dodge evade window from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds.

Traits

  • Awakening: This skill now activates instantly. Reduced energy cost from 35 to 30 in WvW only. Increased range from 360 to 600.

 

 

Edited by Buran.3796
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16 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

Thoughts: best condi Herald doesn't even uses Mallyx, i don't see that changes pushing the meta.

 

This is false propaganda and I resent it. Mallyx is trash on everything but a herald (that's the main issue with mallyx), and mallyx on a herald is certainly better than shiro on a condi herald.

Non-herald Mallyx should be the main focus for any future mallyx changes.

 

Also 2 CHARGES on mace 3???

yea this patch is hype

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Wasn't able to watch the stream, can someone explain this in bold/underlined?

 

On 9/14/2022 at 11:22 AM, Double Tap said:

Vindicator

The single dodge that vindicator has access to has been a long-standing point of negative feedback, and for this update we've adjusted the timing and endurance cost of the vindicator jump so it's more in line with regular dodges.

We've also made some small usability improvements to the vindicator's group stun break Awakening, increasing the range and removing the casting time.

  • Vindicator no longer consumes all endurance to dodge. Reduced endurance cost of dodging from 100 to 50. Reduced dodge evade window from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds

 

The underline quote makes it seem we still have 100 endurance bc it doesn't consume all energy, but then it mentions dodge costing 50 endurance. So does it have 2 dodges with 50 endurance each or is it basically a copy of Mirage dodge situation?

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2 minutes ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Wasn't able to watch the stream, can someone explain this in bold/underlined?

 

 

The underline quote makes it seem we still have 100 endurance bc it doesn't consume all energy, but then it mentions dodge costing 50 endurance. So does it have 2 dodges with 50 endurance each or is it basically a copy of Mirage dodge situation?

Vindicator gets two dodges at the cost of 50 energy per dodge.  Dodges are normalized to .8s down from 1.6s.

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1 hour ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

This is false propaganda and I resent it. Mallyx is trash on everything but a herald (that's the main issue with mallyx), and mallyx on a herald is certainly better than shiro on a condi herald.

   Not even close. Mallyx skills cost a lot of energy (even after the changes) and the legend doesn't provide much in terms of dps or sustain (obviously Glint does for both), whereas Shiro variant kills even without spending energy (more now that the legend swap proc returns) which gives resources to spent in the much more impactful Shiro skills. And for all the fame that Mallyx carries in condi dps builds at PvE, I tested pure traiblazer Herald Mallyx vs pure celestial Herald Shiro vs champions and veterans in both PvE and WvW and the kill times were pretty much the same.

   Aside from Embrace the Darkness (which depletes your energy and leaves you unable to do anything) Mallyx barely does damage (torment with cold, if traited), and PvP players won't stay in EtD. Shiro is just more flexible, allows to increase your damage, stick to your target, disengage...  No color. 

Edited by Buran.3796
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6 minutes ago, Silesium.5623 said:

Don't know how to feel about 2 dodges on vind, they say cos its back to 2 dodges so elita traits are cut in half and how are they cut? Shorter buffs / less dmg  / less heal.???.

Even if cut by half you have 2 dodges which are twice faster animation so just dodge twice for old effect. 

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23 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Not even close. Mallyx skills cost a lot of energy (even after the changes) and the legend doesn't provide much in terms of dps or sustain (obviously Glint does for both), whereas Shiro variant kills even without spending energy (more now that the legend swap proc returns) which gives resources to spent in the much more impactful Shiro skills. And for all the fame that Mallyx carries in condi dps builds at PvE, I tested pure traiblazer Herald Mallyx vs pure celestial Herald Shiro vs champions and veterans in both PvE and WvW and the kill times were pretty much the same.

   Aside from Embrace the Darkness (which depletes your energy and leaves you unable to do anything) Mallyx barely does damage (torment with cold, if traited), and PvP players won't stay in EtD. Shiro is just more flexible, allows to increase your damage, stick to your target, disengage...  No color. 

 

*ignoring PvE stuff because I don't care* <PvP Perspective>

 

1) Saying that Mallyx "doesn't provide much in sustain" is insane, especially when comparing it to Shiro

Mallyx on herald is bringing both a more effective heal skill and instant cast aoe condi transfer. These two things trump Shiro INSTANTLY in sustain.  Shiro heal is barebones and the lifesteal traits from devastation are even more forgettable (devastation on a condi rev is already sus). Taking Mallyx turns a condi herald into a bruiser automatically, Shiro can't do that.

 

2) My issue with how too many people treat Mallyx dps

First and foremost, I do acknowledge that on paper, Shiro utilities are more damage-focused (damaging heal, dmg upkeep, cool stuff)

But your comments on Mallyx dps tells me that you (and admittedly a lot of bad Mallyx players) don't appreciate the proper style of Mallyx gameplay

 

Frankly, I see a lot of bad condi revs who want to play Mallyx the same way as Shiro. They want to swap to Mallyx and immediately go for "highest dps". What does that look like? They swap to Mallyx, maybe hit BE once, then immediately turn on EtD and swap back to Glint when energy runs out.

No. You're bad at Mallyx, stop it.

Mallyx has high energy, true, but like that's the point. It's a bruiser legend that's meant to be played slower and more situationally; its utilities are meant to be chained with certain weapon skills. Mallyx dps is not upfront like Shiro, it's a combo creator/extender legend. What makes Mallyx scary is that every utility that's not a stunbreak or heal is meant to create combos that either severely cripple enemy momentum or set them up for gross amounts of condi.

 

Mallyx doesn't have as many "dps buttons" as Shiro, but the CC capability and aoe unblockable boonrip+chill are too good to pass up.

The only thing Shiro has going for it is the teleport. The heal? garbage. Stunbreak? nothing special. IO? 11111111111. Elite? bait it or dump 50 energy.

 

 

Now obviously a lot of what I'm saying comes down to preference. The majority of revs are looking for an assassin style of gameplay, so they naturally seek it out in any legend they play. But Mallyx has a much different playstyle, it certainly brings much better sustain and imo has the utility to make a condi herald much scarier than Shiro can.

All I'm saying is that there are certain things I see condi Revs running that give me a good laugh, and Glint/Shiro is on that list.

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CMC and the dev team should see this in general.

Mallyx has poor condition management by default. Those Resistance changes are meaningless for as long as Poison Modifiers are effective and without a counter. Permeating Pestilence needs to transfer 3 conditions, 2 is irrelevant for how risky it is.

Hammer needs bug fixes. Second skill is hella buggy.

Jalis need bug fixes. Inspiring Reinforcement initial stability has a gap before it pulses, players can avoid being hit by leaping and the combo field is inconsistent. Force Engagement is horrendously bad, requiring now to be twice as close and constantly bugs out because of forced LoS while many professions is all are able to use skills without LoS on several skills.

Ventari need bug fixes. Skills can't be used in midair

Herald removal of Quickness is good because the entire elite was a easy spam fest. Thank you for this.

The old deathstrike needs to come back, revert the skill speed to it's original and add Chill/Slow to compensate for the design it was meant to be rather than being instant cast without any visuals.

Edited by Shao.7236
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I do not think the changes to Mallyx are sufficient. Mallyx fundamental design in pvp was to hold resistance to avoid condi damage. Without changing the design it will never work in pvp.

 

Vindicator change should be a damage buff in pve. But, it still suffers from doing reduced damage to small hit box and lack of any form of supply. Maybe the goal now is to push its damage further? I guess a buff is better than nothing.

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6 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

*ignoring PvE stuff because I don't care* <PvP Perspective>

 

1) Saying that Mallyx "doesn't provide much in sustain" is insane, especially when comparing it to Shiro

Mallyx on herald is bringing both a more effective heal skill and instant cast aoe condi transfer. These two things trump Shiro INSTANTLY in sustain.  Shiro heal is barebones and the lifesteal traits from devastation are even more forgettable (devastation on a condi rev is already sus). Taking Mallyx turns a condi herald into a bruiser automatically, Shiro can't do that.

 

2) My issue with how too many people treat Mallyx dps

First and foremost, I do acknowledge that on paper, Shiro utilities are more damage-focused (damaging heal, dmg upkeep, cool stuff)

But your comments on Mallyx dps tells me that you (and admittedly a lot of bad Mallyx players) don't appreciate the proper style of Mallyx gameplay

 

Frankly, I see a lot of bad condi revs who want to play Mallyx the same way as Shiro. They want to swap to Mallyx and immediately go for "highest dps". What does that look like? They swap to Mallyx, maybe hit BE once, then immediately turn on EtD and swap back to Glint when energy runs out.

No. You're bad at Mallyx, stop it.

Mallyx has high energy, true, but like that's the point. It's a bruiser legend that's meant to be played slower and more situationally; its utilities are meant to be chained with certain weapon skills. Mallyx dps is not upfront like Shiro, it's a combo creator/extender legend. What makes Mallyx scary is that every utility that's not a stunbreak or heal is meant to create combos that either severely cripple enemy momentum or set them up for gross amounts of condi.

 

Mallyx doesn't have as many "dps buttons" as Shiro, but the CC capability and aoe unblockable boonrip+chill are too good to pass up.

The only thing Shiro has going for it is the teleport. The heal? garbage. Stunbreak? nothing special. IO? 11111111111. Elite? bait it or dump 50 energy.

 

 

Now obviously a lot of what I'm saying comes down to preference. The majority of revs are looking for an assassin style of gameplay, so they naturally seek it out in any legend they play. But Mallyx has a much different playstyle, it certainly brings much better sustain and imo has the utility to make a condi herald much scarier than Shiro can.

All I'm saying is that there are certain things I see condi Revs running that give me a good laugh, and Glint/Shiro is on that list.

This is the best most accurate breakdown of how Mallyx should be played in PvP/WvW I’ve seen. Good job. 
 

also agree most don’t know how to play it well. And Glint/Shiro is/was only really a thing for the mobility in conquest nothing else 

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9 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

*ignoring PvE stuff because I don't care* <PvP Perspective>

 

1) Saying that Mallyx "doesn't provide much in sustain" is insane, especially when comparing it to Shiro

Mallyx on herald is bringing both a more effective heal skill and instant cast aoe condi transfer. These two things trump Shiro INSTANTLY in sustain.  Shiro heal is barebones and the lifesteal traits from devastation are even more forgettable (devastation on a condi rev is already sus). Taking Mallyx turns a condi herald into a bruiser automatically, Shiro can't do that.

   I think that your understanding about celestial condi Herald is at least as bad as my own about condi Mallyx.

   First of all, celestial Herald doesn't run Devastation at all, but Herald + Invocation + Corruption. So has the same access to Permeating Pestilence, albeit most of times I prefer Diabolic Inferno because a) you don't always face high condition pressure, and when your foe runs power damage Diabolic Inferno provides more value, and b) due the much higher HP compared to power Herald (despite running the same legends, Glint and Shiro), I don't bother too much about condi pressure from enemies. I already have two extra cleanses in the shield....   

   PvP build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkex7lxQKsO6ixRYMPyiRSiMCqgjqUX7F-zZxsQisCyMB6NE8aAA

   PvE/WvW build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkex7lxQKsO6ixRYMPyiRSiMCqgjqUX7F-z1IY14/QiUV1pEoXhgkPBh73yjeaA-w

   As I said, the build doesn't need to spent energy to kill: just camping mace auto attacks and proccing the sigils on weapon swap and Invoking Torment in legend swap is enough to put high pressure in not-broken builds, and the energy saved can be used in the expensive Shiro skills, a luxury that Mallyx camping EtD oftenly doesn't have. The strike damage is also decent, so is not like a foe with good cleanses can tank our hits forever.

   This is one of my favourite builds in the game since fuses hig HP, high armor, high cc, strong boon duration, excellent mobility and solid hybrid damage in a single package which works well at every game mode (PvE, PvP, WvW roaming and small scale skirmishes) and the only thing which lacks is ranged damage (which is partially covered by Shiro mobility: won't outrun the builds with the best mobility in the game but will put some pressure on them).

 

   My point remains: best condi Herald doesn't even use Mallyx, the changes in Mallyx won't push it in the meta. Power Herald wasn't also in the meta and it already stacks more might than the changes would allow, so for PvP the changes weren't bad but mostly meaningless.

  I focused my thoughs in PvP since this is mostly the theme of the 4th Oct patches. The Vindi evade should now work close to a normal dodge, with two stackable in a row, but they probably will tune down some traits related to vigor/endurance and the effects from the jump traits. The changes will be wellcomed at PvE, where Vindi will still remain largely unuseen because provides nothing special.

   In PvP won't be used because doesn't have heals (Shiro and two 716 HP heals every 30 econds...) and Jalis+Retribution were nerfed to cripple state, so Shiro + Jalis is mostly mediocre. I guess in WvW roaming Vindi could come back, since the Alliance heals weren't nerfed at that game mode and the new dodges will be much better. But won't have a place in zergs, since Vindi is a worse Herald and if you don't wan't a Herald the new changes in AoE stability to Mesmers will make them more appealing and valuable than having a Vindi which, again, does nothing special.

Edited by Buran.3796
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2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

I think that your understanding about celestial condi Herald is at least as bad as my own about condi Mallyx.

   First of all, celestial Herald doesn't run Devastation at all, but Herald + Invocation + Corruption. So has the same access to Permeating Pestilence, albeit most of times I prefer Diabolic Inferno because a) you don't always face high condition pressure, and when your foe runs power damage Diabolic Inferno provides more value, and b) due the much higher HP compared to power Herald (despite running the same legends, Glint and Shiro), I don't bother too much about condi pressure from enemies. I already have two extra cleanses in the shield....   

   PvP build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkex7lxQKsO6ixRYMPyiRSiMCqgjqUX7F-zZxsQisCyMB6NE8aAA

 

What I will say is that your build is fine. It doesn't have nearly as much sustain as Mallyx (Glint-Mallyx f2 + Mallyx heal) but you can play that build squishier, it'll work. **Glint-Mallyx f2 is what I was talking about when I said "instant-cast aoe condi transfer", not Permeating Pestilence, that trait is bad

 

But more importantly,

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

As I said, the build doesn't need to spent energy to kill: just camping mace auto attacks and proccing the sigils on weapon swap and Invoking Torment in legend swap is enough to put high pressure in not-broken builds, and the energy saved can be used in the expensive Shiro skills, a luxury that Mallyx camping EtD oftenly doesn't have.

^This rhetoric is what I had an issue with in my second point (something you conveniently didn't respond to, but that's fine)

 

Camping mace autos, proccing sigils, Invoke torment, are things that every condi herald has by default. So the idea of Mallyx herald "not being able to deal damage without spending energy" is invalid.

Shiro is using its saved energy for IO and teleport; Mallyx is using it for BE, CtA, and Elite

 

((MY MAIN ISSUE)) you keep bringing up camping EtD to do damage, and I will say it again; that is a bad way to play Mallyx in PvP. It might work in PvE, but not in PvP. Your metric of Mallyx's strength is tied to a BAD way of playing the legend, no wonder you think it's bad.

 

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

My point remains: best condi Herald doesn't even use Mallyx, the changes in Mallyx won't push it in the meta.

 

Again, the first part of the sentence is wrong, your hybrid build is good, but I'm here to tell you that Mallyx is the better pick. I do agree that the October patch won't push Mallyx back into meta, but that's because many people fundamentally are not playing Mallyx correctly.

Edited by GeneralBM.5781
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16 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

Vindicator gets two dodges at the cost of 50 energy per dodge.  Dodges are normalized to .8s down from 1.6s.

This is so huge IMO.

Effectively DOUBLE dodges at TWICE the speed if I am understanding correctly, with no damage/healing tradeoff.

 

We are going to see a hail of Vindicator's falling from the sky and I am here for it. Been playing Vindi for awhile now and so glad to see the dodge is getting beefed up. WOW.

 

Legit my fav change from the patch notes preview. This + sigils on legend swap again and oh my GOODNESS!

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2 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

((MY MAIN ISSUE)) you keep bringing up camping EtD to do damage, and I will say it again; that is a bad way to play Mallyx in PvP. It might work in PvE, but not in PvP. Your metric of Mallyx's strength is tied to a BAD way of playing the legend, no wonder you think it's bad.

   After reading your post again I'll conceed that I'm bad at using Mallyx and you can be right.

   Still, not sure if in a conformed team a Mallyx Herald would fit better, since the finesse nuances required to maximize the Mallyx skills seems to work better in 1 vs 1 than small n vs n skirmishes, since Conquest is currently full of AoE cc spamming and long range attacks (I feel safer in Shiro since allows me to put  a lot of distance if I get focused). But I'll try Glint + Mallyx in October, you convinced me...

Edited by Buran.3796
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5 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Effectively DOUBLE dodges at TWICE the speed if I am understanding correctly, with no damage/healing tradeoff.

   There's not in the patch notes (which are incomplete and not final) but in the demo they said that the jump properties would be adjusted.

   Also, not in the notes but Energy Meld will be instant cast and have some energy cost changes.

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3 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   There's not in the patch notes (which are incomplete and not final) but in the demo they said that the jump properties would be adjusted.

   Also, not in the notes but Energy Meld will be instant cast and have some energy cost changes.

I see, ty for clarifying! So it seems the damage/healing will be adjusted appropriately then. Well I can only hope they make it so it's essentially the same as before dps wise, though I am now going to greatly miss infinitely one shotting PvE open world mobs with death drops + sigil of stamina

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15 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I am now going to greatly miss infinitely one shotting PvE open world mobs with death drops + sigil of stamina

u might be able to at least two shot them with the same combo, the more slam the more fun. 

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33 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   After reading your post again I'll conceed that I'm bad at using Mallyx and you can be right.

   Still, not sure if in a conformed team a Mallyx Herald would fit better, since the finesse nuances required to maximize the Mallyx skills seems to work better in 1 vs 1 than small n vs n skirmishes, since Conquest is currently full of AoE cc spamming and long range attacks (I feel safer in Shiro since allows me to put  a lot of distance if I get focused). But I'll try Glint + Mallyx in October, you convinced me...

 

And that's fine if you lean towards Shiro, like I said I think your hybrid build is solid, and even Mallyx played correctly is not everyone's preferred playstyle.

 

To clarify on playstyle fantasy for both;

If Shiro is the Assassin and is about modding your strikes (with heal, IO, etc) and being evasive/mobile,

then Mallyx is the Pro-wrestler and is about well-timed setups with CC and unique combo-paths to swing momentum quickly

 

two completely different archetypes, but they each have their own strengths

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On 9/17/2022 at 9:15 AM, Waffles.5632 said:

This is so huge IMO.

Effectively DOUBLE dodges at TWICE the speed if I am understanding correctly, with no damage/healing tradeoff.

 

We are going to see a hail of Vindicator's falling from the sky and I am here for it. Been playing Vindi for awhile now and so glad to see the dodge is getting beefed up. WOW.

 

Legit my fav change from the patch notes preview. This + sigils on legend swap again and oh my GOODNESS!

because of this I dont believe this will go live. Saintgarroo build woud become too fun

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In terms of pvp, revenant is just not worth playing right now. It is consistently outclassed and kinda a waste of time. I really wish they brought back a reason to pvp with the class in those patch notes, but it still seems they have no clue what to do with the class and instead more or less just make minor changes with it, all while other classes have atleast 1 spec that does immensely more damage or is a better support. Just sad 

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