Suggestions to make Torment more interesting (and meaningfully different from bleeding)

[Paradachshund.2630]

Hello, I'm a very longtime fan of the series and an indie game designer of video and tabletop games. I mostly hang out on the Reddit, but I wanted to post this in a spot that's easier for the balance designers to see.

 

I decided to make this post after hearing about the change to Torment announced in the balance discussion stream today. I want to preface what I'm about to say with the following: I think the way Torment is being changed is an improvement over the current version, and I completely understand where the designers are coming from with this change. It's a simple and functional way to try and improve the condition without totally removing what it did before or rocking the boat on how Torment-heavy builds are played currently. That being said, I think at this point it's too similar to Bleeding, and I don't think there's a fun amount of difference between the two conditions.

 

While the new Torment will technically be stronger when the target is motionless, 15% is a very min-maxy type of difference. Is +15% damage strong? Yes it is; no build maker will ever pass something like that up if they can help it. Will the average person feel it, though? I would argue they will not, and it will basically turn into spooky Bleeding in most people's minds. If I'm right about that, I would also argue that despite the attempt to keep the flavor of Torment intact, it will still be lost because it's now such a marginal difference between its two states.

 

So what's my suggestion? Embrace the flavor, and change surrounding kits to support it:

 

Torment's base tick damage would be almost entirely eliminated, just like Confusion; with just enough left to remind you its there. The damage would spike up considerably when a target is moving slower than normal, increasing to a maximum level when the target is fully stationary. This would mean that if a target was Crippled they would take some damage, if they were Chilled it would be higher, and if they are stationary it would be very strong.

 

This would of course be a large shakeup to builds relying primarily on Torment for their DPS. The way I would approach this would be two-fold depending on the circumstances. Some skills would have their Torment replaced with Bleeding. This would be for skills that are meant as bread and butter DPS skills. Other skills could keep their Torment, and I would ensure the other non-Tormenting skills in those kits work well with this new version. This means heavy Torment specs would have access to Cripples, Chills, and Immobilizes in larger amounts in order to activate the Torment effect.

 

Now a final caveat: I totally understand this suggestion is more work, a lot more work, than the changes being made to Torment in the new balance patch. That being said, I think making sure that conditions feel meaningfully different from each other is really important, and this design I've proposed would give a lot more knobs to tweak and nuances to play around and react to than the current version. Suddenly a Torment build is something fundamentally different than other DPS condition builds. It's more about locking targets down during a Torment spike rather than steady DPS (though you could of course DPS hard if you can keep a target debilitated for long periods of time). It also has a lot of counter play since the less slowed you are the less damage you take, instead of it being a binary on/off effect. Swiftness becomes a Torment mitigating boon, and Superspeed acts as Torment immunity if you can keep moving.

 

Thanks for reading if you got this far. I hope this sparks some creativity and thoughts on the subject from the balance designers. You have a hell of a job balancing a game this complicated, and I really appreciate the passion and effort you show time and again on these streams. Hats off, and keep up the great work!

[Polar.8634]

This would make builds with resistance and stab invulnerable to torment. Like guardian.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

None of these really matter if all you need to do to burst down someone is just inflicting 25 stack of torment in less than a second.

 

Well that is more an issue with condition as a whole than torment

[Cuks.8241]

In my opinion they could easily just replace torment and confusions sources with bleed and burning. Especially torment. Both were implemented to add depth to competitive but it just doesnt work in this environment where we have condition spam which is answered by cleanse spam. No one is going to stop moving because of torment. And rarely you will delay casting because of confusion.

These 2 could maybe work if they weren't conditions but special effect not subjected to condi cleanse. Very scarce but powerful. The counter play could also be a bit more creative.

For example you get tormented, special effect, big dmg if you move, no or low dmg if you stand still. No stacking, short duration, scarce. To avoid dmg you can stand still and wait it out. But you can also remove it by applying swiftness or super speed to yourself.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Or, just reverse the logic as it was. In PvE use the existing logic where stationary is more impactful, and in WvW/sPvP return the prior logic where the most damage is applied while moving. Torment was reversed more due to its impact on PvE, it was in a good spot in WvW. It made more sense, if you don't want to take the big hits and couldn't cleanse it then you needed to stop moving, which can be dangerous in WvW, which was the point. So keep the extremes, just separate out the game modes and pout it back as it was prior to the PvE reversal.