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(PvE) Seriously anet, go away with that shroud nerf -_-


Valisha.8650
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Spec's popularity was already dropping (from 4,10% to 3,24% in raids, 10,19% to 8,35% in fractals, and 5,41% to 4,08% in strikes according to gw2wingman), but noooo, let's nerf its sustain by a ton without any compensation! They even admitted the reduced initiative pool was a silly idea to begin with, only to leave it untouched, promising some fix of some sort, somewhere in the future. Basically, take the poison now, but the antidote... somewhen, maybe, eh. What kind of dismissive approach is this? How about you guys get to do 5 months of work in advance, but get paid "somewhen in the unknown future"?

You have clearly promised to balance things around their REAL output, rather than HYPOTHETICAL one. Is less than 5% truly too much of a real outcome? Really?! With things like mechanist and firebrand still around kitten?!

Wanted to nerf specter? Just take away the ally targeting aspect, no one even likes this underdone mechanic to begin with, but I guess it can provide some benefits to a party member.

After the warrior banner patch drama, I truly thought you had reconsider certain aspects of the way you balance this game. But no, here we go! Another half-baked patchling doing more harm than good! Do you even play this game?! Specter doesn't get necro's 33% shroud damage reduction, and it's rotation is not even dependent on shroud uptime. You are just making things worse to people for the sake of it!

Had this game include fallout's Intelligence and Perception stats, I would of said some people in anet balance team could use a buff to them.

Could some sweetheart please recommend me a less frustrating game? I would of feel most grateful -_-

Edited by Valisha.8650
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Honestly I think our shroud was way too powerful. I also think going from 1.5 to 0.69 is too much since we have also WAY less health as eg harbs in pvp. But rn we are sitting with condi spec at 34k shroud which is kinda nuts and I can understand the frustration of non spec players playing into that 1v1 or even 1v2. We have to see with how much we end up but I guess like around 20k. I think that's still decent. What is also kinda overlooked is that the torment buff is also a specter buff, so we end up with even more dmg. We have to see where we end up, my guess is A tier which is fine by me.

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6 minutes ago, svnset.8206 said:

Honestly I think our shroud was way too powerful. I also think going from 1.5 to 0.69 is too much since we have also WAY less health as eg harbs in pvp. But rn we are sitting with condi spec at 34k shroud which is kinda nuts and I can understand the frustration of non spec players playing into that 1v1 or even 1v2. We have to see with how much we end up but I guess like around 20k. I think that's still decent. What is also kinda overlooked is that the torment buff is also a specter buff, so we end up with even more dmg. We have to see where we end up, my guess is A tier which is fine by me.

You'll end up with significantly reduced shroud generation. 20k shroud is also too much

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18 minutes ago, FlawlezZ.3178 said:

You'll end up with significantly reduced shroud generation. 20k shroud is also too much

Since shroud gain is percentage based yes we will. We might need to leave alac gain behind and opt in for some shroud generation trait instead. That would really suck but not be the end of the world I think.

Edited by svnset.8206
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Considering that these changes appear to be focused on PvP, per the text quoted below, there's a likelihood that the preview post is just missing the relevant part of the line.  It didn't even touch on Mechanist, for example, despite what was discussed in-stream.

Quote

Specter is currently one of the most powerful specializations in PvP. The build has a lot of strengths, but the thing that stands out is the sheer amount of shroud health available, especially in combination with additional sources of vitality. We're reducing the shroud health by a significant amount, with the goal of making specters a bit easier to kill.

Now, do I think this is fair, even in competitive modes?  It depends on where it places it against Necromancer's shroud, which I believe had a defensive nerf a while back.  But if this just takes away Specter's major fallback when under pressure, then no, I do not feel that it's even-handed without also reducing Necromancer's shroud as well.

I will say, however, that pretty much all of the End of Dragons elites were poorly balanced, and like the ones from Path of Fire and Heart of Thorns before them, we're seeing the inevitable nerfs and rebalancing that should have occurred after the open-beta preview period.

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  • Valisha.8650 changed the title to (PvE) Seriously anet, go away with that shroud nerf -_-

It's because stealth exists. It's a curse. Simply having access to it causes them to have no idea how to balance anything. It doesn't matter how useless or broken our tools or weapons are; as long as we can go invisible for 1 second they are too terrified to buff or fix anything. I can't even play my non-stealth speedy Thief builds anymore because they were all nerfed or completely deleted from the game because of stealth builds other people use that may incorporate a piece of it.

Edited by Doggie.3184
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2 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

It's because stealth exists. It's a curse. Simply having access to it causes them to have no idea how to balance anything. It doesn't matter how useless or broken our tools or weapons are; as long as we can go invisible for 1 second they are too terrified to buff or fix anything. I can't even play my non-stealth speedy Thief builds anymore because they were all nerfed or completely deleted from the game because of stealth builds other people use that may incorporate a piece of it.

Its not stealth, Thief has had some of its weirdest nerfs when the best build didnt use stealth. Its mobility. Mobility means tha tthief will always be good, but they dont really wanna remove thieves mobility proper.

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8 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Its not stealth, Thief has had some of its weirdest nerfs when the best build didnt use stealth. Its mobility. Mobility means tha tthief will always be good, but they dont really wanna remove thieves mobility proper.

specter without the wells isn't that mobile compared to classes like herald, willbender, harb, untamed, soulbeast

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12 minutes ago, FlawlezZ.3178 said:

specter without the wells isn't that mobile compared to classes like herald, willbender, harb, untamed, soulbeast

You don't see many spectres in sPvP who aren't using 2-3 wells or other thief mobility utilities like shadowstep. All they've lost is a bit of initiative making SB5 less useful, and not being a daredevil. Which is essentially the point that @UNOwen.7132 was making - thief in sPvP will always have a place in the mobility role (unless the player actively builds against it) and so the devs seem a little afraid of having thief ever be good at anything else.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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The problem is there is a difference in PvP and WvW/PvE Mobility. The Wells offer great Mobility in PvP shadowstepping Back and forth. But in WvW they just fail as a Mobility Tool to Cover long distances. You are better Off with your mount.

 

That's why I do not underatstand the Intention of pushing PvP Mobility and nerfing Long distances Mobility.

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21 minutes ago, FelsPinguin.5902 said:

The problem is there is a difference in PvP and WvW/PvE Mobility. The Wells offer great Mobility in PvP shadowstepping Back and forth. But in WvW they just fail as a Mobility Tool to Cover long distances. You are better Off with your mount.

 

That's why I do not underatstand the Intention of pushing PvP Mobility and nerfing Long distances Mobility.

You may have just answered your own question. Outside of sPvP, mobility for the purpose of going from point A to point B is pretty much normalised through mounts. Profession-based mobility is for positioning within a fight or disengaging from one, both of which thief is top-tier at.

 

Back to the OP: Yeah, the shroud nerf does seem a bit heavy-handed. They should probably have stepped it down rather than cutting it by more than half in one go.

I don't think it's breaking the "balance according to real performance rather than hypothetical performance" rule, though, because in instanced PvE I don't think the builds care much about how much shroud they have. It'll reduce the Consume Shadows heal/barrier, but that's already more of a nice-to-have than the reason you bring a spectre in the first place. Maybe they can compensate by reverting Consume Shadows to its original functionality and remove the stacks.

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Honestly I think that they should have different ratios for PvE vs PvP/WvW... While the ratios may make sense for PvP/WvW they do NOT for PvE. Why are they trying to balance it all around the same numbers? This isn't the best way to go about this. Look at how weapons already do different damage in PvE vs PvP/WvW. They should do the same with shroud.

PS: the 69 in the 0.69 makes it seem like they aren't taking this seriously.

Edit: actually WvW ratio should probably be higher as it is larger scale too lol. Thief already is looked down upon in large scale fights as it is in WvW.

Edited by ZeroTheRuler.7415
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Here is a scenario that has happened almost every time I have done Harvest Temple as a Specter.

Mordremoth phase, he gets ready to do his head slam on the arena. I go into shroud so consume shadows is ready to heal everyone when it is over.

To make sure I can live through one mistake, I use Mind Shock, and during the channel shroud is gone. Tethered ally uses all my shadow force by taking massive damage or dying.

I've said it else where I'll say it here, you don't have Necro's HP or their extra damage reduction, expertly making the most of shroud is a skill. Since you share that hp with another player there is always an element of Consume Shadows that is outside your control, it is amazing but only when it works out. Expert no healer groups probably have a Specter and dominate, but it's not always a given with less experience.

Apparently the heal portion of consume shadows, weirdly, is impacted by healing bonuses, so it might still be possible to heal players to near full or full with little or no barrier given (with high vitality).
 

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All they had to do is reduce shroud HP in PvP/WvW only. Seemed fine in endgame PvE. I mean ok 40k hp in full ritualist is an overkill, but slashing that in half isn't the best solution either. Let us keep the scourge-like barrier share aspect please - since heal specter is so under-represented in the meta anyway.

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We still have meme rifle deadeye who sacrifice everything in exchange of nothing, and now, finally, we have shroud nerf, right after poisons nerf(didnt work in HT btw, still, hello anet). SO. Dps specters time to fall off from shroud and rip your rotation. Another dead spec in PvE inc. Alac specter overshined by mech before, and never see the light after, cos only one thing they can bring on the table was healing and now pfff its gone.

Edited by Xsa.3702
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15 hours ago, Wolfshade.9251 said:

All they had to do is reduce shroud HP in PvP/WvW only. Seemed fine in endgame PvE. I mean ok 40k hp in full ritualist is an overkill, but slashing that in half isn't the best solution either. Let us keep the scourge-like barrier share aspect please - since heal specter is so under-represented in the meta anyway.

This. And then they change Well of Bounty but don't give it Aegis as well as Stab??? Like if they want Heal Spectre to do better they should have given it Aegis access as well and Well of Bounty was THE perfect place to give that to it

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On 9/19/2022 at 7:47 PM, Vidit.7108 said:

Here is a scenario that has happened almost every time I have done Harvest Temple as a Specter.

Mordremoth phase, he gets ready to do his head slam on the arena. I go into shroud so consume shadows is ready to heal everyone when it is over.

To make sure I can live through one mistake, I use Mind Shock, and during the channel shroud is gone. Tethered ally uses all my shadow force by taking massive damage or dying.

I've said it else where I'll say it here, you don't have Necro's HP or their extra damage reduction, expertly making the most of shroud is a skill. Since you share that hp with another player there is always an element of Consume Shadows that is outside your control, it is amazing but only when it works out. Expert no healer groups probably have a Specter and dominate, but it's not always a given with less experience.

Apparently the heal portion of consume shadows, weirdly, is impacted by healing bonuses, so it might still be possible to heal players to near full or full with little or no barrier given (with high vitality).
 

You bring up an excellent point, because you share that pool of health with someone else. It can become challenging to guarantee the amount of barrier/ heals that you're going to provide. Also you're absolutely correct. We don't have the mitigation that necromancers, this will have a negative impact to any form of a support role. This will even impact DPS opportunity for Specter.

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Honestly I can understand the shroud nerf, but they should fix the real pain point for specters - the alacrity.
Wells not only obstruct vision of enemy aoe but are extremely punishing for specter when used as alac source.
They are shadowsteps that are supposed to be dynamic and reactive. Instead i must slot my utility bar full of wells and just dump all of them like yesturday's burrito in a toilet. Killing all skill expression and build variety I could have with my utilities..

Edited by ZeftheWicked.3076
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