Was void always a thing or something they just completely made up?

[Serperior.6541]

this question randomly came to mind so wanted to ask here because i don't remember "void" getting any mention in the previous expansions and living stories

Edited September 18, 2022 by Serperior.6541

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

There were a lot of references throughout the years of killing the dragons having a negative possibly world ending effect. It just didn't have a name until EoD.

[Serperior.6541]

2 hours ago, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

There were a lot of references throughout the years of killing the dragons having a negative possibly world ending effect. It just didn't have a name until EoD.

thanks for clarifying, at the time i thought killing elder dragons was bad because released magic damaged enviroment  (also it was fine as long as we had our personal magic sponge dragon) not interdimensional horror tearing the fabric of reality

Edited September 18, 2022 by Serperior.6541

[The Greyhawk.9107]

23 minutes ago, Serperior.6541 said:

thanks for clarifying, at the time i thought killing elder dragons was bad because released magic damaged enviroment  (also it was fine as long as we had our personal magic sponge dragon) not itnerdimensional horror tearing the fabric of reality

Actually, your previous presupposition was more inline with what was known prior to EoD, the Void as it was explained in the expansion was more or less created for EoD.  There has been some implications regarding the All and the Balance but the writers haven't been consistent regarding that part of the worldbuilding and at least to me what was described wasn't the same as what we got with the Void.

[Ashantara.8731]

Void was 100% made up in EoD and referenced there in retrospect.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

The idea and appearance of The Void itself is made up for EoD.

However, since Season 2 we've been establishing that killing the Elder Dragons would be bad, and the common terminology for that is basically "the world falls into a void". This phrasing is very obviously not referencing The Void but the dictionary meaning which is just nothingness (The Void is actually everything combined, more akin to a magical black hole than nothingness).

But back in 2010, Dhuum was given the nickname Voice of the Void which along with his other nicknames gave the indication of being something that represents the end of all things. But there's zero indication that such was intentional or just some players (inc. myself) interpreting something where there is nothing, which happens a lot in fandoms, and there was no continuation of this in Hall of Chains.

 

So, basically Yes, but also Mostly No.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

The void may have seen development side starting back in season 4, when they referenced Kralkatorrik's mother. But in terms of the item itself, yes made for EoD.

Much like a lot of the lore and details(not specific to the void), some of it is brand new information, some of it expands on previous bits we've seen. This is true of any setting.

[Fueki.4753]

Void was invented specifically for the expansion.

But I'm not certain, whether Arenanet officially connected the Void to things like Kralkatorrik's madness and Jormag's temper tantrums, or if it's just player-made theories.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Void was invented specifically for the expansion.

But I'm not certain, whether Arenanet officially connected the Void to things like Kralkatorrik's madness and Jormag's temper tantrums, or if it's just player-made theories.

Aspects of the void match Kralkatorrik's madness, in the mixing of magics/amount of magic causing problems.

IIRC, yes it's mentioned that the elder dragons all shifted from the way they were originally because of the void after a very, very long time.

[ugrakarma.9416]

In gw2 we are used to discover new forms of magic and energy(and new properties of these), so ins't a problem a new one.

The overall plot resemble more like scientific research about the true nature of ED magic/energy.

i wonder just why they find the void concept(the "primordial evil" plot) more suitable to wrap Ed plot.

Also is good remind that normaly in plots that use "primordial evil" concept, we end up fighting the "true form" of it: like in avatar or shurato animes.

Edited September 19, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Weindrasi.3805]

I mean... literally ALL OF IT is stuff they just "completely made up." That's.... kind of the definition of a fantasy game xD

[Kalavier.1097]

4 minutes ago, Weindrasi.3805 said:

I mean... literally ALL OF IT is stuff they just "completely made up." That's.... kind of the definition of a fantasy game xD

Some people look at major events and then comb years of content to see if it was always implied or had some huge build up over time.

Sometimes it does, sometimes not. Which is fine.

[Mykhel.6532]

I believe they made it up after writing themselves into a corner during IBS. Primordus was a joke. All the secrecy, allure, and temptation-based intelligence of Jormag was gone in an instant with the most obvious bait in history. Same with the Soo-Won creation crap. Basically: I was with the void at the start. Why didn't the void kill me? Don't know. Why did the void allow me to create Tyria in the midst of it? Don't know. Why did the Void let me create and raise 5 children who would "hold it back?" Don't know. Why would I create 5 of the worst calamities to ever come to Tyria knowing the immense suffering they would cause and their horrible fates of death? Because she was lonely, guys...Ohhhh. Guess it's cool then.

 

Soon-Won is the worst character in all of GW2 in my opinion. The whole story is how she protected Cantha and how she was just a sad wittle soul who just wanted to be happy... at the cost of billions of untold Tyrian lives, incredible catastrophes, creating 5 children without an ounce of morals, decency, or even an understanding of what their role was in "holding back the void." PRIME parenting. The Void is literally never mentioned by Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, or Jormag (the only Elder Dragons before Aurene that spoke). You can argue Kralk was corrupted by the void... but it was always construed to me that eating fellow Elder Dragon's magic, a huge piece of Balthazar, and almost the entirety of the Mists can corrupt a body regardless of how powerful... BUT now it's the void I guess.

 

I think this was also a budget decision. Focus everything you have on Cantha, make it look great (no arguments there; great job design team), then we can reuse the crap out all our aspect models and just make them look chaotic! Oooh. Scary! Alright! Now bring back an old enemy with a NEW face...AETHERBLADES! Good! Who's the new face? We haven't had an Asura as a major bad guy yet... BAM! ANKKA! Why's she jaded? (Lol... I laugh at how stupid this was) How about she was stuck in the Fractals and had to kill herself thousands of times to get out... GREAT!(lmao. Feels like I'm on Reddit with that one). Now, reskin the rest of the monsters! Expansion done!

 

***Of course, I know there's much more to the expac... I'm partially teasing... I love my jade bot and Turtle mount. So much fun! Definitely want future mods.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Mykhel.6532
Grammar

[stormemperor.3745]

On 9/18/2022 at 5:15 PM, Serperior.6541 said:

this question randomly came to mind so wanted to ask here because i don't remember "void" getting any mention in the previous expansions and living stories

made it up.

Remember how you hated these dragons?

They are actually innocent

???

Let me introduce Void

Remember how you hated Void?

They are actually innocent

???

Let me introduce Joko

Killed more people than all dragons and void combined. Brainwashed countless people, more than you can ever think of. Tortured sunspear till no end. Yet he never done something as stupid as killing an elder dragon. Should have killed Taimi when he had the chance.

Praise Joko,

[Mykhel.6532]

4 minutes ago, stormemperor.3745 said:

Let me introduce Joko

Killed more people than all dragons and void combined. Brainwashed countless people, more than you can ever think of. Tortured sunspear till no end. Yet he never done something as stupid as killing an elder dragon. Should have killed Taimi when he had the chance.

Praise Joko,

Never even got a meta with him in it. He was leagues better than Soo-Won.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

SPOILERS FOR PATH OF FIRE AND END OF DRAGONS

The Void was first officially named during the Path of Fire cinematic Glint's Legacy, although it seems to be specifically referring to the Dragonvoid:

 

Although references to it exist earlier including in the Durmand Priory and specifically its connection to The All and the dragon balance, the most well-known one being a statement by the Apostate that if magic falls out of balance all things will fall off of Tyria into "the void", which was assumed to be a metaphor:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Map_of_the_All

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 9/19/2022 at 8:38 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Void was invented specifically for the expansion.

But I'm not certain, whether Arenanet officially connected the Void to things like Kralkatorrik's madness and Jormag's temper tantrums, or if it's just player-made theories.

SPOILERS FOR ICEBROOD SAGA

It was more or less confirmed in IBS, with Aurene's line to Jormag after the Frozen appeared:

"You're using corrupted magic, I don't need to tell you how dangerous that is". to which Jormag responds, "I have no choice since you aren't going to help me" (paraphrased). Jormag went increasingly mad after this, and the storyline heavily suggests it was Jormag's reliance on corrupted magic to gain an advantage over Primordus that caused their mental breakdown and eventual defeat at Anvil Rock.

 

It seems the magic used by dragons isn't naturally corrupted, which we already knew from Glint, Gleam/Vlast and Aurene, but the Elder Dragons intentionally pull on corrupted magic to gain power, and its basically poison.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Mykhel.6532]

3 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

It was more or less confirmed in IBS, with Aurene's line to Jormag after the Frozen appeared:

"You're using corrupted magic, I don't need to tell you how dangerous that is". to which Jormag responds, "I have no choice since you aren't going to help me" (paraphrased).

This could have easily been construed (and was by me) to be the mixing of magics. Kralkatorrik even described the magic "warring" within him. No mention of the Void whatsoever even though he was literally created by Soo-Won to "hold back" the void... I guess the "great" mother just left that detail out when raising the psychopathic killer.

[Fueki.4753]

6 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

SPOILERS FOR PATH OF FIRE AND END OF DRAGONS

The Void was first officially named during the Path of Fire cinematic Glint's Legacy, although it seems to be specifically referring to the Dragonvoid:

 

Although references to it exist earlier including in the Durmand Priory and specifically its connection to The All and the dragon balance, the most well-known one being a statement by the Apostate that if magic falls out of balance all things will fall off of Tyria into "the void", which was assumed to be a metaphor:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Map_of_the_All

 

This use of void refers to the absence of something that should be there. It is not the EoD's Dragonvoid.

6 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

"You're using corrupted magic, I don't need to tell you how dangerous that is". to which Jormag responds, "I have no choice since you aren't going to help me" (paraphrased). Jormag went increasingly mad after this, and the storyline heavily suggests it was Jormag's reliance on corrupted magic to gain an advantage over Primordus that caused their mental breakdown and eventual defeat at Anvil Rock.

This refers to Jormag using magic that is tainted by the domains of other Elder Dragon's magic that Jormag absorbed, similar to how Kralkatorrik got corrupted by the magic of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar.

Maybe the Dragonvoid was already planned at that stage, but we have no way of knowing that and I doubt that's actually the case. The Dragonvoid didn't feel like a particularly planned out villain.

While they could retroactively attribute these events to the Dragonvoid, it might not be the best move. We've seen how badly Blizzard fared at doing similar with Zovaal (the Jailer).

[maxwelgm.4315]

Dragonvoid was made specifically for EoD as others have mentioned.

 

The idea that led into Dragonvoid however and they were able to make use of, was 100% previously established worldbuilding (what little worldbuilding the current batch of writers decided to put on the story....).  Specifically, the ascended trinkets you get from Living World and Raids have for years sold the idea of sentient magic being a thing, as well as the Leyline anomalies we have been seeing since Heart of Thorns.

 

In other words, that magic was going to go rampant/wild in this specific manner of assuming a form and a sort of sapience/sentience was set up a long while ago, but the specifics of the Dragonvoid and, I suspect, especially the origin of the world with the dragon baby BS and their innate corruption into the Void were certainly made up on the spot for EoD, and to its detriment even. The setup was actually very fine - I believe they have since at least HoT planned for a 6th, abstract/eldritch villain who would turn out to be the ultimate cause for the Elder Dragon corruption of magics, but it all went pretty much haywire after the brilliant Season 4 and they had to pretty much rush an entire expansion worth of story, which resulted in the not so fleshed out Dragonvoid. You can just know it's rushed when the very concept of void mobs is "black goo painted over normal dragon minions" instead of twisting minions even further into new forms AKA what GW1 already has in the form of the Realm of Torment.

Edited October 18, 2022 by maxwelgm.4315

[Mykhel.6532]

17 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

The Void was first officially named during the Path of Fire cinematic Glint's Legacy, although it seems to be specifically referring to the Dragonvoid:

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Only a person looking at this through some kind of biased lens would come to this conclusion. You even capitalized it, when it's lowercase in the very subtitles they added. It's the context: The narrator is literally referring to an imbalance of magic with the void (singular noun)... NOT an invading entity (proper noun). This flowed perfectly with the story lore: Zhaitan's magic falls into the system and begins the imbalance... it's somewhat stable still; although changes are definitely being noticed. It almost appears to be a boon for Mordremoth... then Moredremoth dies next... now we're seeing corruption. Primordus is beginning to stir from the corruption of now being overwhelmed with both death and life magic. We're lucky with Dwarven tech and put him back to sleep. Balthazar's scheme interrupts Taimi from killing Primordus altogether and drains him of his power; we stop it knocking both him and Jormag out of the game. However, all isn't the same for the already awake Crystal Dragon--the dragon that was already almost killed by Destiny's Edge. He's pissed now.  Balthazar fails his mission resulting probably one of the most catastrophic endings we've had to any given story: Kralk now has life, death, and Balthazar's god magic allowing him to traverse the Mists-- a magic (to my knowledge) never consumed in such large capacity by any being. He's primal now. He's incredibly corrupted by the warring magic. All he can do to suppress the pain is eat.  Whenever he isn't eating, he's raging. Blindly, he charges to consume Aurene as the ultimate bait and you know the rest. This was beautifully written, exciting, and foreboding. Once Kralk is killed... now we know what's to happen with the remaining 2 Dragons on mainland Tyria.

 

There was such incredible potential with what Primordus and Jormag could have become after Kralk... I argue they could've had their own expansion... Tyrians caught in between the most ravenous sibling rivalry in history. Jormag's cunning and Primordus' brutality could have changed maps, boiled/frozen seas, rose more islands from the deep, thawed out ancient ruins, etc... but instead, they wanted to get their ideological/political crap in so we got the terrible garbage of IBS. All the cunning allure from Jormag was gone in an instant with the most obvious bait in history. Then, they utterly abused what Champions actually were to the Dragons and made them into mindless, prideful morons who just face-tank for their Dragon while they stand back and shoot "lazy" beams. Then poof! They're dead. Lol. What a joke. What happened to Zhaitan's reliance on his Champion, the Eye? It was well hidden... knowing its crucial weakness at a price of significant gain by having the Eye that could see nearly anywhere. What was lost to strike at it. Then you find out it's a system... Next is the Mouth that feed Zhaitain. It gave these dragons both incredible depth and showed they were vulnerable... I guess you could argue they weren't "Champions," but I would argue they were...

 

You can tell there was this simplification of writing that entered GW2 during IBS. Every prior dragon was complex and multi-factored, each with significant strengths and weaknesses. Tactics and innovative methods were needed to take on each one. The Pact and other alliances were interwoven into each mission and map. Sacrifices had to be made to succeed. Endings were barely even considered bittersweet. Then... we get: ROAR! Primordus mad! Primordus smash! Jormag hates Primordus. Why? Cause Fire and Ice. DUH! No explanation needed, pleb. They're like bound or whatever. Then the most cunning, manipulative Elder Dragon in the lore, Jormag, gets hardcore baited and then literally POOFED! Braham didn't even die after becoming Primordus' Champion. Hahaha. It's just so bad.

 

Why are you defending the very obvious change in the quality of writing? I'm so curious.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This flowed perfectly with the story lore: Zhaitan's magic falls into the system and begins the imbalance... it's somewhat stable still; although changes are definitely being noticed. It almost appears to be a boon for Mordremoth... then Moredremoth dies next... now we're seeing corruption. Primordus is beginning to stir from the corruption of now being overwhelmed with both death and life magic. We're lucky with Dwarven tech and put him back to sleep. Balthazar's scheme interrupts Taimi from killing Primordus altogether and drains him of his power; we stop it knocking both him and Jormag out of the game. However, all isn't the same for the already awake Crystal Dragon--the dragon that was already almost killed by Destiny's Edge. He's pissed now.  Balthazar fails his mission resulting probably one of the most catastrophic endings we've had to any given story: Kralk now has life, death, and Balthazar's god magic allowing him to traverse the Mists-- a magic (to my knowledge) never consumed in such large capacity by any being. He's primal now. He's incredibly corrupted by the warring magic. All he can do to suppress the pain is eat.  Whenever he isn't eating, he's raging. Blindly, he charges to consume Aurene as the ultimate bait and you know the rest. This was beautifully written, exciting, and foreboding. Once Kralk is killed... now we know what's to happen with the remaining 2 Dragons on mainland Tyria.

Some minor corrections:

• The corruption had been there long before Zhaitan's death, but Zhaitan's death (and every subsequent death) greatly spread up the process. In theory, if no Elder Dragon died, the system could have gone for another handful of dragon cycles - but not indefinitely.
• Primordus was awake long before Season 3 - Taimi said Primordus is active not Primordus is awake. Primordus was the very first Elder Dragon to wake this cycle, and according to Kormir they woke up because of Abaddon's death and magic.
• Dwarven tech had nothing to do with putting Primordus to sleep - those shenanigans in Ember Bay was merely to prevent the volcanos from erupting due to the increased flow of magic caused from Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's death (it was a complete side story unrelated to Primordus, in other words). It was Balthazar and Taimi's Machine (purely asuran) that put Primordus to sleep.
• Kralkatorrik was primal long before the ED deaths, and we witness this in Edge of Destiny novel. Somewhat nitpicking there, but since I'm clarifying major points, here's an addendum. 

9 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Then, they utterly abused what Champions actually were to the Dragons and made them into mindless, prideful morons who just face-tank for their Dragon while they stand back and shoot "lazy" beams. Then poof! They're dead. Lol. What a joke. What happened to Zhaitan's reliance on his Champion, the Eye? It was well hidden... knowing its crucial weakness at a price of significant gain by having the Eye that could see nearly anywhere. What was lost to strike at it. Then you find out it's a system... Next is the Mouth that feed Zhaitain. It gave these dragons both incredible depth and showed they were vulnerable... I guess you could argue they weren't "Champions," but I would argue they were...

It's not even that much, though. IBS treated it as if every Elder Dragon only has one champion, and that they are vital to the Elder Dragon - they aren't. Zhaitan lost dozens of champions, and only suffered with the Eyes and Mouth because those were specialized minions that Zhaitan over-relied upon (and was Zhaitan's unique weakness as well). Mordremoth lost dozens of champions - as did Kralkatorrik, Jormag, and Primordus. And until IBS: Champions, none of those deaths mattered besides Drakkar, who was Jormag's herald (the same role held by the Great Destroyer and Glint - which is where the revenant elite specialization that channels Glint gets its name).

It would have made a lot more sense if they used the term Herald instead. Because those champions do matter - killing the Great Destroyer in GW1 weakened Primordus and delayed its awakening by 50 years, and Glint's betrayal did the same to Kralkatorrik.

[Mykhel.6532]

10 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The corruption had been there long before Zhaitan's death, but Zhaitan's death (and every subsequent death) greatly spread up the process.

I accept all corrections... but this is the first time I've heard this. What was the "corruption?" Where is it mentioned?

[Gibson.4036]

Cunningly plotted story and thoughtfully crafted worldbuilding is not this game.

Maybe it was GW1, but not GW2.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I accept all corrections... but this is the first time I've heard this. What was the "corruption?" Where is it mentioned?

It was exactly as you said: the Elder Dragons consuming magic that wasn't their domain. The only thing is that it was happening before Zhaitan's death, and we know this not only from developer commentary, but also the fact that Kralkatorrik states that the Torment drove him to kill Glint, which happened 5 years before Zhaitan's death. Jormag and Soo-Won also bring this up indirectly, by talking about how the cycle is broken (Jormag) or that they couldn't filter the Void's influence perfectly (Soo-Won).

While we're never told exactly why they're afflicted by Torment before even Zhaitan's death, the source is pretty obvious when you think about it: Elder Dragons consume ley-lines, and ley-lines is the combination of all magic flowing through the world (how ley lines are different from the void, which is also the combination of all magic, is left... completely unexplained unfortunately).