"Necromancer is still a meme"

[Agrippa.1693]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7cg5ci/dt_gear_optimizer_tool_balance_patch_updates/And then especially the 'other classes' part in the 'balance patch update' bit ...

Are we still the laughing-stock in high end PvE (Raids/T4 CM Fractals)??? Or can someone PLEASE prove me wrong ... I really want to believe! And please come with constructive arguments, cause if these kind of guilds (like qt and dt) just don't even take the time to look into the Necro's viability because we're just a joke to them, either a whole (pretty much semi-professional) community is wrong, or the ANet devs are really just doing that .... making a joke out of us Necros ...Again, I really want to believe!

(Pre-note: please don't come with 'in PvP/WvW Necros are really strong' bullcrap ... they can balance it differently in each game mode, so there's no reason for the Necros to be significantly worse in either one of them)

[Dadnir.5038]

It was a good read with someone commenting that you got to take qT raid benchmark with a grain of salt while it's a post done by dT... Well the necro is still the necro. I've also read a very interesting thread on star war reddit about balance, changes and game corporation marketing strategy. The necromancer might be in it's state just because it keep the necromancer's players on the edge with always this sliver of hope that they will be able to make it, yet they don't. Like a donkey run after a carrot. ;)

[Aetatis.5418]

constructive arguments? a good power reaper is still good enough for fractals, dungeons and probably even raids. a good (!) power reaper is probably able to pull 1st - 2nd dmg in most scenarios (which is joining groups in the lfg tool if you dont have a static grp). can do the job in t4 fractals still very good... fluent.

• but not to an option for speedrunners, not an option for min-maxers, not an option for players that like to play classes with high skill-ceilings (which reward you with a lot more dmg than power reaper could ever achieve on paper).
• so basically not an option for (almost) anything on the group-search. (many search the profession, not the player - from what i experience regularly. "they" don't mind if a player underperforms with a dh because in theory dh does far more damage and way more burst than any necro - ever... see last point).
• so if you are a good necro player you mostly face groupkicks OR pve-experiences with a lot of ... roleplay. a few exception (!)
• basically start your own static grp. nothing changed.
• and if you are a good necro player anyway, i suppose you are good with atleast one of the meta builds aswell - hence you will have a lot better community-experience with that. the game-experience on the other hand will be very different ofc. (to a point where someone like me gave up to do pve. although i have a couple of characters ready for the big content e.g. raids)

[Kanto.1659]

In most of these cases I wonder about actual real benchmarks done live instead of spreadsheet maths.

[Aetatis.5418]

@Kanto.1659 said:In most of these cases I wonder about actual real benchmarks done live instead of spreadsheet maths.

https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

[Agrippa.1693]

Ah well, I switched over to Condi Mirage (for the time being). Even in my first T4 fractals with the Mirage, without much testing and practicing rotations, I already put out far more superior numbers then my Reaper or Scourge ever could.

Although at some stage I just hope I can freely play my main in an optimal position.

[Anchoku.8142]

I guess I do not understand why the dev's do not add more boons to raid bosses and more outgoing conditions. If corruption and transfers were just a bit more useful, that might fix the Necromancer raid issue. The bosses are the problem.

Tweaking individual raid bosses so each profession has something valuable to offer seems so much easier than balancing a job over 3 game modes... Shave a little health, give an important boon like alacrity or have it inflict AoE torment; things like that can get Necromancer into a raid.

[Lexan.5930]

donno what they are talking about, now that i can proc condition sending on entering shroud, my dps in fights has gone up. I sometimes go full harriers in fractals if we dont have a healer and usually the barrier and healing is enough to keep everyone up while giving out 25 might pretty easy.

[Deadvillager.1956]

Raid wise i cant really complaint with my scourge. In the 2 weeks since balance patch i was asked to change to a different dps only once and that was for KC where even i have to admit that scourge is suboptimal there (together with other condi based specs). I frequently manage to push for highest area damage in add heavy fights and manage to not be the worst boss dps on pretty much all of the encounters. Does necro need more damage? Yes very much so. Is necro(scourge) unviable and dragging the group down? Hardly.

[Renita.7824]

Ok, I will agree that our single target boss damage is a bit lower than it should be, but we are not a joke. I have been raiding on my necro since before pof and haven't been kicked yet, and my groups always appreciate the value of epi. I even tried healing this week since you don't need 2 Druids and it was fine. The more people post claiming that necros are dead and not viable for content the more people will just believe it and not give them a chance.

[Subli.8217]

As a tryhard necro pve main (since release) I have to say necro is still a joke.The only reason I'm usually top1 or top2 dps in pug groups is because I minmax and rarely do mistakes.If I were to play with other hardcore players playing different classes, then the golem benchmark numbers would show, because then it's not about player skill but class related dps cap.This is a problem but I'm tired of voicing it on this forum for 5 years straight.Devs, through their balance patches made it very clear they don't care for tryhard necro players.

[Svarty.8019]

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:(Pre-note: please don't come with 'in PvP/WvW Necros are really strong' bullcrap ... they can balance it differently in each game mode, so there's no reason for the Necros to be significantly worse in either one of them)In WvW, Scourge is supergodly, vanilla necro is the

and the Reaper is the guy who just got mugged and kicked into an alley.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Im in the Alley....bummer.

[Deadvillager.1956]

Necro is not as bad as people pretend it is. This night i watched teapot finish deimos with all necros. Try that with all thieves :tongue:

[Coffietire.2783]

Yes necromancer is a meme in it's proper definition. That is to say, necromancer has been perceived as a garbage class long before fractals and raids were even in the game solely because the speed running community doesn't use necromancer.

Back then, dungeons were the best way to make gold without grinding or playing the market place, so the name of the game was clearing dungeons as fast as possible. While necromancers were more than capable of clearing dungeons, they weren't good at speed clearing, which meant that many greedy groups started rejecting necromancers, which was followed by the community as a whole perceiving necros as a bad class.

So yes, we are a meme. That doesn't mean that we're a bad class, but that we're surrounded by morons.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Coffietire.2783 said:Yes necromancer is a meme in it's proper definition. That is to say, necromancer has been perceived as a garbage class long before fractals and raids were even in the game solely because the speed running community doesn't use necromancer.

Back then, dungeons were the best way to make gold without grinding or playing the market place, so the name of the game was clearing dungeons as fast as possible. While necromancers were more than capable of clearing dungeons, they weren't good at speed clearing, which meant that many greedy groups started rejecting necromancers, which was followed by the community as a whole perceiving necros as a bad class.

So yes, we are a meme. That doesn't mean that we're a bad class, but that we're surrounded by morons.

There is a bit more to it than that but you are pretty close to the truth.

[Maunzi.3764]

People do not understand why necromancer is a meme. Most people play with crappy pugs, and compare their output to that of crappy pugs. A rare necro that doesn't suck can do fine in that position - I top DPS like that too. It's super easy to convince yourself that all is fine if all you play with is people that don't know the game.

The problem is when people don't suck. The DPS ceiling is MUCH lower than other classes, and it is much easier doing higher DPS on other classes as well. If I play a necro, I can outdps bad pugs, but if I play another class, I can outdps myself by 20%.

THAT is the problem. I'm always letting my team down if I play a necro, because necro/scourge/reaper is just bad in high-end PVP, and every other class is a better choice. Objectively, in flat numbers.

[vicious.5683]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:As a tryhard necro pve main (since release) I have to say necro is still a joke.The only reason I'm usually top1 or top2 dps in pug groups is because I minmax and rarely do mistakes.If I were to play with other hardcore players playing different classes, then the golem benchmark numbers would show, because then it's not about player skill but class related dps cap.This is a problem but I'm tired of voicing it on this forum for 5 years straight.Devs, through their balance patches made it very clear they don't care for tryhard necro players.

There has always been people in these forums saying "necromancers are ok". But when other classes are great and fantastic, being "ok" is not ok.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I remember trying to raid with necro when it was released and then changing to DH soon after (DH!). The difference was so immense that I can't even begin to explain how much of a difference it made. Since then I made an ele, a rev and a druid and I actually do content better with any of these other classes, than I can do with Necro (even fractals). I'm not sure it's an issue of knowing how to play Necro, it was my first class since release and I played it for 2 years straight. It's simply underwhelming, very "ok" and very easy to pick up, but still underwhelming.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

We've been garbo with intermittent spikes into above avg. Other classes are used to our mediocrity and get the shakes and have a verbal wobble when we show promise, hence resulting in semi thought out patches which make us even more of a niche class. And..If you multiclass you have the proof right there.

[Agrippa.1693]

@dceptaconroy.7928 said:And..If you multiclass you have the proof right there.Yea, like I said before, I've already switched to my Condi Mirage. The difference in dmg output and even defense (in the form of evades and even condi removal with the new elite skill), now I get more used to it, is quite big. As Maunzi already is saying it might get up to 20% even.I have a few (3) fully geared ascended sets now with full infusions (+5 ,+9). 2 viper, 1 berserker. But changing them over from one character to another is (for me at least) still quite time-consuming and still quite expensive as well (runes/sigils; sometimes even new ascended armor needed: light/medium/heavy ...). It's sad to say, but I've already mostly gave up on my beloved main (the Necro) some time ago ... I'm saying mostly, cause I return back full with hope if a new expansion or balance update comes through, only to be disappointed a few weeks later. I had fun those few weeks doing story missions, achievements, etc., cause the Necro always plays 'nice', but if it's time to do PvE endgame stuff (raids, T4 fractals) and want to be optimal and not 'just nice', it's time to switch over to another character.And again, sad to say, but I (mostly) gave up on 'the dream', so I'm now fine witch switching over to different classes when the time is there .... BUT PLEASE ANet, give us TEMPLATES, so for us Necros it's not that difficult to switch over!!!

[SoulPariah.2856]

Are we still the laughing-stock in high end PvE (Raids/T4 CM Fractals)??? Or can someone PLEASE prove me wrong ... I really want to believe! And please come with constructive arguments, cause if these kind of guilds (like qt and dt) just don't even take the time to look into the Necro's viability because we're just a joke to them, either a whole (pretty much semi-professional) community is wrong, or the ANet devs are really just doing that .... making a joke out of us Necros ...

Is it a thing now to need a colored and highlighted pop up book declaring exactly how to do things on ez mode and otherwise everyone at ANet are awful? Do we have to go through and actually say it to every single bland and unoriginal person in the community how tired it is. Can you people really not get a sense of that all on your own? Your argument or reasoning doesn't matter! It's the same thing on loop and so completely useless!

[Agrippa.1693]

@SoulPariah.2856 said:

Are we still the laughing-stock in high end PvE (Raids/T4 CM Fractals)??? Or can someone PLEASE prove me wrong ... I really

want

to believe! And please come with constructive arguments, cause if these kind of guilds (like qt and dt) just don't even take the time to look into the Necro's viability because we're just a joke to them, either a whole (pretty much semi-professional) community is wrong, or the ANet devs are really just doing that .... making a joke out of us Necros ...

Is it a thing now to need a colored and highlighted pop up book declaring exactly how to do things on ez mode and otherwise everyone at ANet are awful? Do we have to go through and actually say it to every single bland and unoriginal person in the community how tired it is. Can you people really not get a sense of that all on your own? Your argument or reasoning doesn't matter! It's the same thing on loop and so completely useless!

Well, isn't that the whole issue then?! EVERYONE knows that the Necro is useless in high-end optimal PvE and has been for pretty much ever now. Far less will complaint about it (I still think this is merely a small percentage of the whole Necro community that really complaints about it on these forums, but that's just a side-note), still is the largest part of these forums, but ANet still chooses to ignore it ....I don't see myself or anyone else that complaints about the Necro's poor state as the real issue here, do you? And still ... IF that's the real issue, would it not be very easy to fix that ... (let me give you a hint: ANet should REALLY fix the Necro!).

[Umbramare.9156]

I really enjoy Necro gameplay. I really love my necro (the only character i have mapcomp with).

But as someone who fullclears on a monday in 2-3 hours, does cm 100 daily and expects some quality from my squad/group, i just cant accept a necro dps in my squad/group.The dps difference is just too much. I havent touched necro since the scourge nerf and i'm playing chrono/mirage/weaver rn. Even as a rather crappy weaver I could outdps scourges without a problem. simply because their dps caps at like 70% of what a weaver can do (not even counting in the burst vs condi ramp up).

Necro is still a meme and I wont accept necros in my squad until people understand that being "able to kill bosses" is not good enough. After seeing bosses getting 5 maned or killed completly without weapons, you should take the hint that "being able to kill a boss" isnt what you should measure the performance of a class with.

And unless the (somewhat bad and extremly casual) necro player base understands that, necro will be the bottom of the barrel. If you guys always voice how you're okay with "being able to kill bosses" and being mediocre, well then go ahead. Dont expect people to carry your terrible dps tho.

oh yeah btw, that awesome power reaper buff (that came with condi reaper nerf), nerfed the best dps option reaper had.

[Fatalyz.7168]

@Umbramare.9156 said:Necro is still a meme and I wont accept necros in my squad until people understand that being "able to kill bosses" is not good enough. After seeing bosses getting 5 maned or killed completly without weapons, you should take the hint that "being able to kill a boss" isnt what you should measure the performance of a class with.

Except that is exactly how performance of classes are judged, by Anet. They have said it themselves, they aren't trying to make things optimal, just viable. The very definition of viable, is that it something is capable of working successfully; feasible. By that definition, Necromancer fits.

Most people that play this game don't care about 5 manning bosses, being able to clear it 20 seconds faster, or even without weapons. Being able to kill the boss, is perfectly acceptable to judge a class by. So tell me, which does Anet care more for developing this game for, the casuals or the tryhards? I'm going to go with the casuals.