Updated balance suggestions for Mesmer for 4. Oct patch and after

[JazzXman.7018]

27 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Because in one case there IS a tell: I'm a shattering mesmer on melee range, and the counterplay is not coming melee unless you have a defensive (full counter on spellbreaker works WONDERS for this). For mantra is just press button to do free damage whatever the range.

ok so you differ hard because one is ranged and one is only melee instant? well you can make it ranged with blink what is also instant. just give it a 0,5 secs castime and animation, you still will get 2 clones you can instant shatter but you just cant create an pure instant range combo for 6k+ anymore (what is also a too high instant dmg amount if it would only be melee). also there is no reason that the mes still gets 2 clones when he uses mirror images while being blinded.

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

But basilik also allows for instant stun, it is prepared before going to a fight not in the middle of a fight and thief has huge instagib potential and even easier than power mesmer.
Concussion shot is 1/4 which is unavoidable, yeah it has the side or back gimmicky but you can put something like that into CS for all I care.
So CS wasn't out of the line.

so you would prefer to have a casttime on f3 to make it a stun instead having an reactive instant interrupt tool? i mean i can see that for virtu f3 since virtu f3 has zero synergy as being an overly long daze with a casttime+traveltime.  making it a lock down cc like a pull (equally to rev axe offhand) so you can pierce your f1 on more targets for example would make much more sense than a daze.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

14 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

ok so you differ hard because one is ranged and one is only melee instant? well you can make it ranged with blink what is also instant. just give it a 0,5 secs castime and animation, you still will get 2 clones you can instant shatter but you just cant create an pure instant range combo for 6k+ anymore (what is also a too high instant dmg amount if it would only be melee). also there is no reason that the mes still gets 2 clones when he uses mirror images while being blinded.

I burn two utilities out of three and my only damaging mechanic, I better get some damage in return.

[JazzXman.7018]

2 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I burn two utilities out of three and my only damaging mechanic, I better get some damage in return.

not without counterplay baby, not in my world ❤️ 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

17 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

thx for reading and the feedback ❤️

 

i mean your idea back then was good since it was an improvement over the previous state because also daze mantra should have never become a stun with its instant nature, so the problem with cs trait existed long before sword ambush. 

 

basilisk needs to be casted, then has an icon in the buffbar of the thief (so its sure the next attack applies the stun) and then needs to be applied (only skill to apply it instant is steal, so often not even the application is instant). That is far from being the same than instant f3.

 

predictable is only the burst combo, not f3 itself, and sry but ppl who need a stun to hit the gs burst and need to be able to down targets with that combo already have a lot of room for improvement on power gs mes. Gs mes is a burst class but it shouldnt and doesnt need to be a non-interactive oneshot class with the active defense it has (already outside of taking inspi or chaos). 

 

lock down cc like stun, knockdown etc should rly never be instant, even immob should not be instantly applied, since even immob is way too strong preventing the 2 main defensive mechanics (movement+dodging) from working. then you have soft cc like daze/chill/cripple. While daze and chill both should only be instant applied when short duration (not longer than 1 sec is a good number). 

 

instant skills in general are only fair,healthy balanced when they are not too strong by themself. So they need to be combined with other castskills to be impactful (and then have a tell from the combo with castskills) or they have additional counterplay like daze mantra with the interrupt requirement for having big impact or they are built into a setup mechanic like shatters with clones (here important that the dmg on shatters doesnt become too high, what it can be on chrono and also other power mes builds esp. when stacking too many dmg multiplier).

The instant damage on chrono shatters is lower because the damage is split, you have an entire second to dodge the last half.

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

The instant damage on chrono shatters is lower because the damage is split, you have an entire second to dodge the last half.

yes but as already mentioned im not a fan of that split, the additional zone denial spam is annoying. at least the new animations on chrono shatters were well made tho 😆

if they wanted to reduce chronos shatter dmg esp the instant part (what totally makes sense due to chronos access to way more cds from cs and alac) then just reduce it, dont add more hit spam to it

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

so you would prefer to have a casttime on f3 to make it a stun instead having an reactive instant interrupt tool? i mean i can see that for virtu f3 since virtu f3 has zero synergy as being an overly long daze with a casttime+traveltime.  making it a lock down cc like a pull (equally to rev axe offhand) so you can pierce your f1 on more targets for example would make much more sense than a daze.

No cast time, virt F3 is absolutely moroning garbage design, I wouldn't mind if it was 1/4 no travel time tho.
I would be fine if CS was with the same gimmick -  it stuns if hit on side or back.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 minute ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

yes but as already mentioned im not a fan of that split, the additional zone deniel spam is annoying. at least the new animations on chrono shatters were well made tho 😆

if they wanted to reduce chronos shatter dmg esp the instant part (what totally makes sense due to chronos access to way more cds from cs and alac) then just reduce it, dont add more hit spam to it

here important that the dmg on shatters doesnt become too high, what it can be on chrono

This comment clearly refers to the current state of chrono so that is what I responded to.

[JazzXman.7018]

12 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

here important that the dmg on shatters doesnt become too high, what it can be on chrono

This comment clearly refers to the current state of chrono so that is what I responded to.

my answer did refer to current state as well 🙂 they might have reduced the isntant dmg on first hit a bit but they just moved the balance problem of chrono shatters from instant dmg to hit spam. doesnt rly make it better. 

 

12 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

No cast time, virt F3 is absolutely moroning garbage design, I wouldn't mind if it was 1/4 no travel time tho.
I would be fine if CS was with the same gimmick -  it stuns if hit on side or back.

seriously projectiles are just bad in a game with 3000 projectile bugs and tons of projectile hate added with same xpac, it lit screams that they want mes to be mechanically bad (so they can overbuff numbers to sell the spec and easy nerf it later). i think it wouldnt hurt the design idea of virtu, if f3 wouldnt be a projectile. make it a 3/4 secs casttime pull like rev axe offhand. that is a good casttime for a lock down cc that has no buff icon to tell next attack stuns, and no preparation cast and no link to another attack which needs to be activated to apply the stun. f3 actually would have synergy with the other bladesongs then.

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

my answer did refer to current state as well 🙂

Wherein the complaint about too high instant damage on chrono shatters doesn't make sense.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Responding to the whole document:

Sadly biased as always in favor of the exact specific build JazzXman likes to play (power Mirage with gs/torch, blink/mantra/stealth/portal/jaunt) and skips over a bunch of important points like the useless chrono/mirage/virt utilities, fixing virtuoso bugs and trait that need reworks like desperate decoy and chaotic interruption, etc. Overall mostly mediocre suggestions with some decent ones spinkled in.

Edited September 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[JazzXman.7018]

Just now, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Wherein the complaint about too high instant damage on chrono shatters doesn't make sense.

ofc its still too high, lets not forget f2 and the first hit on f1 isnt what i would call low dmg either. 2,5-3k crits usually without a clone (+clones first hits) on first split hit alone is not low.  

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Just now, JazzXman.7018 said:

ofc its still too high, lets not forget f2 and the first hit on f1 isnt what i would call low dmg either. 2,5-3k crits usually without a clone (+clones first hits) on first split hit alone is not low.  

It's lower than core & mirage (if we are talking about the "uncounterable"/instant damage here which we are) so in that case core / mirage are extremely too high.

[JazzXman.7018]

25 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Responding to the whole document:

Sadly biased as always in favor of the exact specific build JazzXMan likes to play (power Mirage with gs/torch, blink/mantra/stealth/portal/jaunt) and skips over a bunch of important points like the useless chrono/mirage/virt utilities, fixing virtuoso bugs and trait that need reworks like desperate decoy and chaotic interruption, etc. Overall mostly mediocre suggestions with some decent ones spinkled in.

you again miss the direction of the bias. i am biased toward high skill ceiling that is why i prefer that build over all others. not vise versa. and i try to get chrono and virtu and core (actually all classes)  to a point where i can enjoy them just as much, since i like chrono and i would like to have more skillful options to play than only power ih/de power mirage with portal.  i did explain that on detail in the first post tho.

 

and i didnt write about all utilities since they at least dont cause big balance issues in one or the other direction (compared to the overall skill-requirement lvl i want to have in the game), them being not better or useless in pvp (some are used in other gamemodes so its fine, not every skill needs to be viable in all gamemodes). so i focused on the most problematic stuff since the doc is already super long. virtuoso bug fixes i mention in virtuoso related topics where i wrote just as much to virtu only. this doc is whole mesmer and focus on the most problematic stuff not everything. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It's lower than core & mirage (if we are talking about the "uncounterable"/instant damage here which we are) so in that case core / mirage are extremely too high.

they (core/ mirage  shatter dmg) are also too high with stacked dmg multiplier as i mentioned yes. doesnt preclude that chrono shatters are too high too, esp considering the whole consept the shatters are put into with alac and cs cd reductions on chrono.

that my mirage build hits more than 2,5k without a clone on mindwrack happens 2 times a year and i dont have a second hit on them and i need to prebuff the combo with an offensive dodge to apply vuln/ might. means the basic core shatter dmg isnt too high. it becomes too high on chrono even with split due to chronos cd reduction abilites from alac and cs +multiplier stacking+too much cd reduction in illusion traitline and on core and mirage due to dmg multiplier stacking+too much cd reduction on illusion traitline (also the trait in illusion is less overperforming on core shaters than on conti split).

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Just now, JazzXman.7018 said:

you again miss the direction of the bias. i am biased toward high skill ceiling that is why i prefer that build over all others. not vise versa. i did explain that on detail in the first post tho.

My analysis is just more accurate.

Just now, JazzXman.7018 said:

and i didnt write about all utilities since they at least dont casue balance issues in oen or the other direction, them being not better or useless in pvp (some are used in other gamemodes so its fine, not every skill needs to be viable in all gamemodes). so i focused on the most problematic stuff sicne the doc is already super long. virtuoso bug fixed i mention in virtuoso related topic where i wrote just as much to virtu only. this doc is whole mesmer and focus on the most problematic stuff not everything- 

Almost none of the things you wrote about are out there "causing issues" at the moment so that isn't a convincing argument. Also, I forgot to mention it in my response above but you also disregarded PvE which isn't really smart to do when it comes to offering rework suggestions (for instance to superiority complex) in gw2 if you want any of it to actually be implemented.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

4 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

they are too high with stacked dmg multiplier as i mentioned yes.

How, when it does more damage on core and mirage?

[JazzXman.7018]

4 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

My analysis is just more accurate.

you can claim that if you want, doesnt become true tho. but i remember you i know that it doesnt make sense to discuss with you over a certain point. so lets just agree to disagree. 

4 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

How, when it does more damage on core and mirage?

check my commend again edited it to be more clear what i meant.

[JazzXman.7018]

17 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Almost none of the things you wrote about are out there "causing issues" at the moment so that isn't a convincing argument. Also, I forgot to mention it in my response above but you also disregarded PvE which isn't really smart to do when it comes to offering rework suggestions (for instance to superiority complex) in gw2 if you want any of it to actually be implemented.

1). i clearly told in what context to put that document and what needs to be done to other classes in same time.

2). i dont mention pve bc i have the opinion that pve is always easy compensated by simple number split balance when mechanical changes in pvp causes unwelcome changes in pve. i also mentioned that several times.

you clearly skip too much of my posts and im too tired and busy to write evrything twice. it actually feels like you just barely skipped through some sentences of the doc and posts from me (maybe not even that) and just try to trashtalk me. just another reason it makes no sense going into deep discussion with you. you have a very strong anti-mentality and confrontational way to talk to me, it feels you are just biased against me for whatever reasons but that is fine, just not relevant for me but it makes the discussion with you insanely exhausting, unnecessary long, unfun and destructive. so lets agree to disagree just as the last time. have a nice day o/

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

22 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you can claim that if you want, doesnt become true tho. but i remember you i know that it doesnt make sense to discuss with you over a certain point. so lets just agree to disagree. 

 It can be difficult to judge yourself from "the inside". What I can say is that recognizing bias is typically pretty obvious, including in your case because it unmistakably permeates most of your paragraphs. For one who has read what you have previously written and said throughout the years it is difficult to ignore.

22 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

check my commend again edited it to be more clear what i meant.

Ok, in the passage I quotes you specifically mentioned Chrono but I see that you now take that back - great.

18 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you clearly skip too much of my posts and im too tired and busy to write evrything twice. i clearly told in what context to put that document and what needs to be done to other classes in same time. just another reason it makes no sense going into deep discussion with you. you have a very strong anti-mentalitiy and confrontational way to talk to me, it feels you are just biased against me for whatever reasons but that is fine, just not relevant for me but it makes the discussion insanely exhausting, unnecessary long, unfun and destructive. so lets agree to disagree just as the last time. have a nice day o/

Nope, I did not skip any of your posts. "Anti-mentality" isn't a word or concept that exists. I did not trashtalk you, I just think a lot of your suggestions are biased and mediocre. You are a stubborn person (not necessarily a problem by the way), in fact I don't think you have ever changed an opinion based on what somebody else has written or said, ever, and this is why you see me as confrontational. Unnecessarily long? You are the one who is known for creating walls of texts, you even say so yourself sometimes.

You can leave whenever you wish of course, no stress - have a nice day.

Edited September 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[JazzXman.7018]

20 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

 It can be difficult to judge yourself from "the inside". What I can say is that recognizing bias is typically pretty obvious, including in your case because it unmistakably permeates most of your paragraphs. For one who has read what you have previously written and said throughout the years it is difficult to ignore.

Ok, in the passage I quotes you specifically mentioned Chrono but I see that you now take that back - great.

Nope, I did not skip any of your posts. "Anti-mentality" isn't a word or concept that exists. I did not trashtalk you, I just think a lot of your suggestions are biased and mediocre. You are a stubborn person (not necessarily a problem by the way), in fact I don't think you have ever changed an opinion based on what somebody else has written or said, ever, and this is why you see me as confrontational. Unnecessarily long? You are the one who is known for creating walls of texts, you even say so yourself sometimes.

You can leave whenever you wish of course, no stress - have a nice day.

case closed i would say 🤣 thx for your constructive participation. i love you too and try to be more like you in the future ❤️

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 minute ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

case closed i would say 🤣 thx for your constructive participation. i love you too ❤️

Now now, I didn't say I love you, let's not move that fast!

[JazzXman.7018]

51 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Now now, I didn't say I love you, let's not move that fast!

no worries, it always was pretty obvious that you dont, that was my point 🤦‍♀️

well back to something constructive and less subjective: anyone else missing the stickered posts about virtu bug reports?

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[katte nici.9483]

It is an interesting discussion and we all have our opinions. We all are emotionally invested in Mesmer and want it to be fun engaging and fair.

[JazzXman.7018]

5 minutes ago, katte nici.9483 said:

It is an interesting discussion and we all have our opinions. We all are emotionally invested in Mesmer and want it to be fun engaging and fair.

tru dat 👍

sadly the emotional trashtalk became a too big part lately, so i hope we are done with that for now and can come back to constructive argumentations and reasonings about the topic.

Edited September 19, 2022 by JazzXman.7018