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Updated balance suggestions for Mesmer for 4. Oct patch and after


JazzXman.7018

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51 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

no worries, it always was pretty obvious that you dont, that was my point 🤦‍♀️

well back to something constructive and less subjective: anyone else missing the stickered posts about virtu bug reports?

Let's be honest they haven't fixed bugs / QoL issues that were reported in beta so I doubt they looked much at those threads anyway 😞

Edit: I disagreed with you, I did not trashtalk you as a person.

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1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Let's be honest they haven't fixed bugs / QoL issues that were reported in beta so I doubt they looked much at those threads anyway 😞

Edit: I disagreed with you, I did not trashtalk you as a person.

that is not true. terrorhuz as one example just as lincoln disagreed with me a lot but in a constructive and respectful way, easy to see the difference in how they write and how you write to me in this thread. you indeed trashtalked me as person and also dealt with my written content in a very anti-mentality/negative form.

 

simply disagreeing is something else than calling me biased and stubborn and trying to artifically create situations where you think you made me take stuff back (for example what i wrote over chrono shatter dmg)  rly tryhard to prove me wrong just for the sake of proving me wrong not because you wanna discuss stuff out constructive until we all find the truth.  you  force me to say everything twice, either skipping or just ignoring that i already talked abotu stuff you come up with. distracting from the topic etc  since you are not here to friedly discuss but to win an argument just for winning an argument.

 

that is how it feels talking to you and why i dont wanna continue discussing with you in particular. not because you disagree (what i dont mind by itself) but bc of the way and manner you do it.  you can interpret it however you like and  think im wrong about that and that it is just my problem of being bad at taking criticism bc im soooo stubborn and biased (you rly like to prove your claims with claims) and interpret it in a way that make you feel good, since that is what you do anyway. 

 

you were super constructive, objective and unbiased towards me and my writings and only me being that biased and stubborn makes me missinterpret  your behavior towards me in this thread. whatever you say bud, just let us end this mess pls it has no value for anyone checking this thread, just fills it with destructive offtopic nonsense and its already a lot too read without such stuff.

Edited by JazzXman.7018
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1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

that is not true. terrorhuz as one example just as lincoln disagreed with me a lot but in a constructive and respectful way, easy to see the difference in how they write and how you write to me in this thread. you indeed trashtalked me as person and also dealt with my written content in a very anti-mentality/negative form.

You choose how you wish to interpret things.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

simply disagreeing is something else than calling me biased and stubborn and trying to artifically create situations where you think you made me take stuff back (for example what i wrote over chrono shatter dmg)  rly tryhard to prove me wrong just for the sake of proving me wrong not because you wanna discuss stuff out constructive until we all find the truth.  you  force me to say everything twice, either skipping or just ignoring that i already talked abotu stuff you come up with. distracting from the topic etc  since you are not here to friedly discuss but to win an argument just for winning an argument.

Stubbornness is a good trait in many instances (which I alluded to when I said "not necessarily a problem by the way"). It's a characteristic of yours (of mine too on this forum) not an insult. Yes, I do think you are biased, that is my conclusion after talking to you and reading what you have written throughout the years. Not the end of the world, most people are very biased in various ways.

"artifically create situations where you think you made me take stuff back (for example what I wrote over chrono shatter dmg)"

No. You specifically called out Chrono shatter damage as too high and that this is a problem because it doesn't have enough counterplay, and you said multiple times that you want to nerf chrono damage. I challenged this because core and mirage have higher instant shatter damage than Chrono, which has the most counterable shatters along with virtuoso. I can take another example, you wish to add a cast time to Mirror Images (a bad idea) because you don't like the instant clone generation -> shatter, but you don't mention for example Jaunt with Self-Deception -> Shatter. Deceptive Evasion is another example of instant clone generation which can also be combed with Jaunt or Phase Retreat for an easy 2 clone instant shatter.

I never force you to say things twice (even aside from the fact that I cannot force you to do anything), I may however ask you to clarify or I may challenge a point. I don't care if you wish to call it a friendly discussion or an argument, at the end of the day I think your suggestions mostly accomplish nerfing every other build except your own. You tend to say very confidently that you think your own build is the most skilled build there is, so I will confidently disagree. Two examples, you think Torch is a more skilled weapon than Focus, and you think Illusionary Ambush is a skill with a low skill cap. In my mind both of those opinions are just blatantly untrue.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

that is how it feels talking to you and why i dont wanna continue discussing with you in particular. not because you disagree (what i dont mind by itself) but bc of the way and manner you do it.  you can interpret it however you like and  think im wrong about that and that it is just my problem of being bad at taking criticism bc im soooo stubborn and biased (you rly like to prove your claims with claims) and interpret it in a way that make you feel good, since that is what you do anyway. 

You are free to leave at any time my friend.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you were super constructive, objective and unbiased towards me and my writings and only me being that biased and stubborn makes me missinterpret  your behavior towards me in this thread. whatever you say bud, just let us end this mess pls it has no value for anyone checking this thread, just fills it with destructive offtopic nonsense and its already a lot too read without such stuff.

Yes, in fact I read your entire document, looked at the points, and responded with my conclusion. Some of the points were decent, as a I said, for example removing distortion from Blurred Inscriptions.

Edited by agrippastrilemma.8741
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8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You choose how you wish to interpret things.

indeed just as you 🙂 you wanna interpret my bias towards mirage while everything i wrote literally proves it wrong, even up to the fact that i also nerf my own build (so your claim i nerf everything except my build is objectively and proven wrong, like most of your claims are wrong about me). i never said im not biased but im not biased toward mirage or even mesmer. but hey, whatever you like to  think, stay with it no matter what. you already came in with the opinion about my mirage bias and you tryhard to keep that wrong impression and you also tryhard to prove it. keep trying tho if you have nothing better to do. i mean you either accuse me of lying or accuse me of being too dumb to realise my real bias, lit saying i have no self reflection. pretty encroaching esp since it doesnt give me any fair room to deal with you. im either lying, or i just dont know myself.  you know better i guess, since you look from the outside.

 

i think the difference in constructive and respectful disagreeing and discussing and the way you jumped into the thread is quite obvious (at least in the first versions of your posts before you edited some of them and for example added the "being stubborn isnt necesarry a problem"- part later since you got yourself that you came along too aggressive first). but maybe thats just me being biased and subjective. i mean what else right?

 

all you do is just saying: "no jazz is wrong since you rly RLY were totally unbiased towards me and its Jazz's wrong emotional narrowed interpretation". its not leading anywhere discussing that with you either since you work with killerphrases and deny-claims too well. lets just say im wrong and you are right. fine for me.

 

8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

No. You specifically called out Chrono shatter damage as too high and that this is a problem because it doesn't have enough counterplay, and you said multiple times that you want to nerf chrono damage. I challenged this because core and mirage have higher instant shatter damage than Chrono, which has the most counterable shatters along with virtuoso.

read my answers to that again. that has nothing to do with taking anything back or contradicting myself. i just did explain what i meant and you tryhard to interpret it as backpaddle and a prove of my bias towards mirage and against chrono. i say it again:

i dont mind what spec or even class i play, i also have no need for bias depending on personal skill lvl, since i can play all mesmer specs equally good. all i care for is maximum high skill ceiling and when mesmer only has a braindead inspi meta than i either use an offmeta build or i just switch to a class that has a higher skilled viable meta build. all i try to do is bringing chrono , core, virt (actually all classes) to a  skillful lvl where i can enjoy them (and where i think the balance is fair and skillful enough, ofc not perfect but close as possible) since i would love to have more skillful options to play than only de/ih gs power mirage with portal. you can believe it or not i dont care since you believing me or not doesnt change reality. accuse me of lying or not knowing myself if you want that killer phrase exit move again. 

 

8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I can take another example, you wish to add a cast time to Mirror Images (a bad idea) because you don't like the instant clone generation -> shatter, but you don't mention for example Jaunt with Self-Deception -> Shatter. Deceptive Evasion is another example of instant clone generation which can also be combed with Jaunt or Phase Retreat for an easy 2 clone instant shatter.

an example for what? that im biased toward my own mirage build since i didnt mention those 2? i dont even use and dont like that trait on mirage for exactly the reasons i dont use/like mirror images. also Self-Deception and staff2 only give one clone not 2 what is only half of the problem. but i mentioned the problem with Self-Deception in previous posts in other threads (you should know when you rly read my stuff focused since years). could indeed have added it to the document but as said the doc only focus on the most important stuff since its already super long. stuff i didnt mention is not necessary totally fine for me. i just didnt mention it in the doc.

 

Quote

Yes, in fact I read your entire document, looked at the points, and responded with my conclusion. Some of the points were decent, as a I said, for example removing distortion from Blurred Inscriptions.

why you mention pve then when it already was said that i do mechanical suggestions for pvp not for pve since pve can in all of my suggestiosn easy be compensated by number splits.

 

why you start to argue that none of my suggestions are needed in current game state when i say right in the start of the document that the context should be that all classes get same treatment? just arguing for the sake of arguing, for the sake of diagreeing or to distract? since senseful discussing is something else.

 

what conclusions you came up with? mostly you only claimed stuff and said that this or this is a bad or mediocre suggestion, jazz is just biased, end of your points. for example you didnt explain why you think giving mirror images a cast time is bad. you just claimed its  a bad suggestion, no explanations i could constructive  work with. while i explained on detail (what ofc needs way more words) why i think its not a healthy mechanic when being instant and unblindable.

once again super stubborn from me not instantly agreeing with your not back-uped claims i guess xD 

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12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

indeed just as you 🙂 you wanna interpret my bias towards mirage

Not towards Mirage, towards your very specific build.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

while everything i wrote literally proves it wrong, even up to the fact that i also nerf my own build (so your claim i nerf everything except my build is objectively and proven wrong, like most of your claims are wrong about me).

Afaik the only way you nerf your own build is general Mirage nerfs which affect multiple/all Mirage builds (desert Distortion), which you obviously compensate richly for that with the two dodges. On the other hand we can look at some other builds:

Domi/duel SC Mirage: you remove SC completely

Domi/illu Mirage: Master of Misdirection nerf, removal of Illusionary Ambush, removal of Shatter Storm, Signet of Illu removal.

Domi/illu Power Chrono: nerfed damage, removal of Shatter Storm, nerf of CS duration (Master of Fragmentation), nerf of Master of Misdirection, hard nerf of Mirror Images.

Condi Mirage: removal of target break on axe, Master of Misdirection nerf, Signet of Illu nerf.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i never said im not biased but im not biased toward mirage or even mesmer.

That wasn't exactly my claim, but yeah.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

but hey, whatever you like to  think, stay with it no matter what. you already came in with the opinion about my mirage bias

Yeah from what you have written previously. It would be foolish not to recognize that bias. Alas, I read the doc with an open mind and judged it on its own merits.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and you tryhard to prove it.

I certainly didn't try hard in this thread, I wrote a quick conclusion of my opinions on the document because I didn't want to spend more time on it since Anet are not going to read it anyway.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

keep trying tho if you have nothing better to do.

I suppose you do have something better to do, despite responding trice after saying you aren't going to reply.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i mean you either accuse me of lying

I have never done that.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

or accuse me of being too dumb to realise my real bias, lit saying i have no self reflection. pretty encroaching esp since it doesnt give me any fair room to deal with you. im either lying, or i just dont know myself.  you know better i guess, since you look from the outside.

Guess so, that would make sense.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i think the difference in constructive and respectful disagreeing and discussing and the way you jumped into the thread is quite obvious. but maybe thats just me being biased and subjective. i mean what else right?

You just became very offended because I said I thought your document had some decent points but was mostly mediocre.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

all you do is just saying: "no jazz is wrong since you rly RLY were totally unbiased towards me and its Jazz's wrong emotional narrowed interpretation". its not leading anywhere discussing that with you either since you work with killerphrases and deny-claims too well. lets just say im wrong and you are right. fine for me.

I don't know what killerphrases or deny-claims are but sure, ok.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

read my answers to that again. that has nothing to do with taking anything back or contradicting myself. i just did explain what i meant and you tryhard to interpret it as backpaddle and a prove of my bias towards mirage and against chrono. i say it again:

I appreciate that you changed/clarified your claim so as to be less biased.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i dont mind what spec or even class i play, i also have no need for bias depending on personal skill lvl, since i can play all mesmer specs equally good. all i care for is maximum high skill ceiling and when mesmer only has a braindead inspi meta than i either use an offmeta build or i just switch to a class that has a higher skilled viable meta build. all i try to do is bringing chrono , core, virt (actually all classes) to a  skillful lvl where i can enjoy them since i would love to have more skillful options to play than only de/ih gs power mirage with portal. you can believe it or not i dont care since you believing me or not doesnt change reality. accuse me of lying or not knowing myself if you want that killer phrase exit move again. 

I have not accused you of lying, you just made that up.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

an example for what? that im biased toward mirage since i didnt mention those 2? i dont even use and dont like that trait on mirage for exactly the reasons i dont use/like mirror images. also Self-Deception and staff2 only give one clone not 2 what is only half of the problem.

Deceptive -> Jaunt or Deceptive -> Phase Retreat.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

but i mentioned the problem with Self-Deception in previous posts in other threads (you should know when you rly read my stuff focused sicne years).

You are compiling want you want changed on Mesmer in a document that is ostensibly for the developers to read, so it is great to be careful.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

could indeed have added it to the document but as said the doc only focus on the most important stuff since its already super long. stuff i didnt mention is not necessary totally fine for me. i just didnt mention it in the doc.

Many things you mention aren't important. When was the last time you actually got oneshot by something like a Mirror Images -> Shatter combo? It may seem great on paper to use something like Mirror Blade -> Blink -> Mirror Images -> Mind Wrack (or from stealth) but in practice it doesn't really work. I have not been oneshot by MI in years and years. Besides, having a short cast time like 0.25 seconds wouldn't allow you to dodge it on reaction anyway.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

why you mention pve then when it already was said that i do mechanical suggestions for pvp not for pve since pve can in all of my suggestiosn easy be compensated by number splits.

I know you said that, but it doesn't really work to just say that in a game which is financed pretty much entirely by its PvE - if you want devs to take your post seriously.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

why you start to argue that none of my suggestions are needed in current game state when i say right in the start of the document that the context should be that all classes get same treatment? just arguing for the sake of arguing for the sake of diagreeing or to distract? since senseful discussing is something else.

Because I think you are wrong about what things are skilled or not and what things are problems or not.

12 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

what conclusions you came up with? mostly you only claimed stuff and said that this or this is a bad or mediocre suggestion, jazz is just biased, end of your points. for example you didnt explain why you think giving mirror images a cast time is bad. you just claimed its  a bad suggestion, no explanations i could constructive  work with. while i explained on detail (what ofc needs way more words) why i think its not a healthy mechanic when being instant and unblindable.

once again super stubborn from me not instantly agreeing with your not back-uped claims i guess xD 

MI isn't really even instant in practice, here is a video where I use it in point-blank range against a golem, it took about 0.75s from the first (Illusionary Persona) hit to the last hit of the Mind Wrack. If the clones have to walk it can of course take even longer.

Clone summoning skills being unblindable is the standard. Phase Retreat, Illusionary Leap, Deceptive Evasion, Mirage Thrust (sword ambush), Decoy - everything summons clones while blinded except skills that need to hit an enemy in order to summon clones, like Mirror Blade and Bladecall.

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19 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

for example you didnt explain why you think giving mirror images a cast time is bad. you just claimed its  a bad suggestion

I will.
It's bad because clones and shatters are instacast, but not insta-effect.

They are, in fact, one of the most telegraphed attacks in the game, because you're not SHATTERING your clones. You're ORDERING your clones to shatter; they will perform their task at their own leisure, according to gw2's internal AI tick (which is NOT instant; AI in gw2 ticks every 0.5\1-ish seconds).

Most clones are summoned randomly in space and time (as they come from phantasms); mirror images is one of the few skills that give back to mesmers a modicum of control over their own class resource, by summoning them HERE and NOW. Remove that, and clones become totally in control of your opponent, when not an active resource for them (necromancers partially get life force from clones and can use them to proc unholy feast\reaper's shouts; warriors get adrenaline from clones and use them to trigger full counter; catalysts get energy from hitting clones).

And about the instacast: for every clone, shattering means "hit this guy at any given time, 0.5s from now to actually never"; even on melee range, the AI in GW2 works in ticks which -seemingly- take anywhere from 0.5s to 1s before being executed (and that is very clear on skills like Phantasmal Rogue).
Basically: the shatter will immediately activate on you, but the clones will have to wait for the AI to tick. If a thief is exposed now, I need to hit NOW, not sometimes in the next 30 minutes. The exploding time is something like 0.5s as per GW2s limitations, which is about the cast time of arching slice; if I'm a chronomancer, it goes up to 1.5s which is PLENTY of time to react.

If anything, devs could add a visual effect on the mesmer -a brief flash, or something of the sorts-, so you have a better visual indicator to warn people that mirror images has been casted. But not an animation. This phantasm\clone madness is slow enough already as it is.

Edited by Terrorhuz.4695
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2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I will.
It's bad because clones and shatters are instacast, but not insta-effect.

They are, in fact, one of the most telegraphed attacks in the game, because you're not SHATTERING your clones. You're ORDERING your clones to shatter; they will perform their task at their own leisure, according to gw2's internal AI tick (which is NOT instant; AI in gw2 ticks every 0.5\1-ish seconds).

Most clones are summoned randomly in space and time (as they come from phantasms); mirror images is one of the few skills that give back to a modicum of control over their own class resource, by summoning them HERE and NOW. Remove that, and clones become totally in control of your opponent, when not an active resource for them (necromancers partially get life force from clones and can use them to proc unholy feast\reaper's shouts; warriors get adrenaline from clones and use them to trigger full counter; catalysts get energy from hitting clones).

And about the instacast: for every clone, shattering means "hit this guy at any given time, 0.5s from now to actually never"; even on melee range, the AI in GW2 works in ticks which -seemingly- take anywhere from 0.5s to 1s before being executed (and that is very clear on skills like Phantasmal Rogue).
Basically: the shatter will immediately activate on you, but the clones will have to wait for the AI to tick. If a thief is exposed now, I need to hit NOW, not sometimes in the next 30 minutes. The exploding time is something like 0.5s as per GW2s limitations, which is about the cast time of arching slice; if I'm a chronomancer, it goes up to 1.5s which is PLENTY of time to react.

If anything, devs could add a visual effect on the mesmer -a brief flash, or something of the sorts-, so you have a better visual indicator to warn people that mirror images has been casted. But not an animation. This phantasm\clone madness is slow enough already as it is.

Yup, great comment, this is why if you use something like Mirror Blade -> Mirror Images -> Mind Wrack from stealth, the opponent will very often dodge the clone shatters and just get hit by the Mirror Blade & Illusionary Persona shatter - even though it should be "instant" in theory. Or if you use Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Mind Wrack, they will often dodge/block before the clone shatters.

Edited by agrippastrilemma.8741
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On 9/20/2022 at 2:27 PM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I will.
It's bad because clones and shatters are instacast, but not insta-effect.

They are, in fact, one of the most telegraphed attacks in the game, because you're not SHATTERING your clones. You're ORDERING your clones to shatter; they will perform their task at their own leisure, according to gw2's internal AI tick (which is NOT instant; AI in gw2 ticks every 0.5\1-ish seconds).

Most clones are summoned randomly in space and time (as they come from phantasms); mirror images is one of the few skills that give back to a modicum of control over their own class resource, by summoning them HERE and NOW. Remove that, and clones become totally in control of your opponent, when not an active resource for them (necromancers partially get life force from clones and can use them to proc unholy feast\reaper's shouts; warriors get adrenaline from clones and use them to trigger full counter; catalysts get energy from hitting clones).

And about the instacast: for every clone, shattering means "hit this guy at any given time, 0.5s from now to actually never"; even on melee range, the AI in GW2 works in ticks which -seemingly- take anywhere from 0.5s to 1s before being executed (and that is very clear on skills like Phantasmal Rogue).
Basically: the shatter will immediately activate on you, but the clones will have to wait for the AI to tick. If a thief is exposed now, I need to hit NOW, not sometimes in the next 30 minutes. The exploding time is something like 0.5s as per GW2s limitations, which is about the cast time of arching slice; if I'm a chronomancer, it goes up to 1.5s which is PLENTY of time to react.

If anything, devs could add a visual effect on the mesmer -a brief flash, or something of the sorts-, so you have a better visual indicator to warn people that mirror images has been casted. But not an animation. This phantasm\clone madness is slow enough already as it is.

that is indeed a great comment and i have to admit that i never paid attention to that-. i missed it, simple as that, it never rly felt that delayed to me when playing it but i never did the effort to check in slowmotion. and yes it changes somethign, means i have to rethink my opinion about mirror images now

 

so thanks a lot  that you didnt just claim but also explained. it is constructive and make me able to learn something i have missed until now. thats why i love that game, even after 10 years it gives you stuff to learn and a constructive discussion without subjective negativism can also be helpful for everyone.

 

im also kinda happy, that it finally happend, that i was proven wrong/ proven that i have missed something in my analysis, so i can actually prove that in case I AM wrong i have no problem to admit that i missed something.

now i can live up to what i claimed in my first post in this thread. i never claimed to be a god who is always right. that is why i always ask for feedback and im never mad at someone disagreeing to me (that is also not the reason i feel offended by @agrippastrilemma.8741, its the manner to fight here vs me instead constructive discuss, its your behavior towards me not the disagrreement itself. i will reply to your post later since im busy atm)

 

that is exactly what i was talking about, i usually am not easy to prove wrong bc i do a lot of research and informing myself, listen to other ppls opinions and perspectives already BEFORE i built an opinion, so it reduced the cases where i am rly wrong or miss something by a lot. that can be missinterpret as me being stubborn, while in fact im just simply not wrong that often when we talk about stuff that is linked to facts and logic and not just a matter of taste. when im wrong i will usually see it at soem point and then admit without problems. that is why i always do the effort to read all coutner arguemnts to my writings sicne i KNow that it can happen that im wrong or missed something. so thanks @Terrorhuz.4695 to be that helpful.

 

here i clearly missed something and i for sure have to rethink my opinon about mirror images. give me time to make some tests ingame myself and time to overthink it with this new informatzions in mind. will need a bit since im bit busy irl atm.

 

 

but you also should keep in mind that mirror images is clearly more delayed from the mesmers perspective than it is from the opponents perspective. i can already say that soemthing is still bugging me with that utiltiy but i have to find out what it is. giving mesmer a tell insteadd an animation is something i could be fine with, at least now with that new informations. 

 

but give me some time i will come back to you both later

Edited by JazzXman.7018
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55 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

that is indeed a great comment and i have to admit that i never paid attention to that-. i missed it, simple as that, it never rly felt that delayed to me when playing it but i never did the effort to check in slowmotion. and yes it changes somethign, means i have to rethink my opinion about mirror images now

 

so thanks a lot  that you didnt just claim but also explained. it is constructive and make me able to learn something i have missed until now. thats why i love that game, even after 10 years it gives you stuff to learn and a constructive discussion without subjective negativism can also be helpful for everyone.

 

im also kinda happy, that it finally happend, that i was proven wrong/ proven that i have missed something in my analysis, so i can actually prove that in case I AM wrong i have no problem to admit that i missed something.

now i can life up to what i claimed in my first post in this thread. i never claimed to be a god who is always right. that is why i always ask for feedback and im never mad at someone disagreeing to me (that is also not the reason i feel offended by @agrippastrilemma.8741, its the manner to fight here vs me instead constructive discuss, its your behavior towards me not the disagrreement itself. i will reply to your post later since im busy atm)

 

that is exactly what i was talking about, i usually am not easy to prove wrong bc i do a lot of research and informing myself, listen to other ppls opinions and perspectives already BEFORE i built an opinion, so it reduced the cases where i am rly wrong or miss something by a lot. that can be missinterpret as me being stubborn, while in fact im just simply not wrong that often when we talk about stuff that is linked to facts and logic and not just a matter of taste. when im wrong i will usually see it at soem point and then admit without problems. that is why i always do the effort to read all coutner arguemnts to my writings sicne i KNow that it can happen that im wrong or missed something. so thanks @Terrorhuz.4695 to be that helpful.

 

here i clearly missed something and i for sure have to rethink my opinon about mirror images. give me time to make some tests ingame myself and time to overthink it with this new informatzions in mind. will need a bit since im bit busy irl atm.

 

 

but you also should keep in mind that mirror images is clearly more delayed from the mesmers perspective than it is from the opponents perspective. i can already say that soemthing is still bugging me with that utiltiy but i have to find out what it is. giving mesmer a tell insteadd an animation is something i could be fine with, at least now with that new informations. 

 

but give me some time i will come back to you both later

I'm looking to quit the game now anyway so no need to get back to me. 😃

Edited by agrippastrilemma.8741
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As a chrono enjoyer I like distortion back but its... weird. Not as weird as distortion on virtuoso though. This makes it a literal machine in PvE. Its not like we need more broken stuff right after mech gets finally adjusted a bit.

To fix chrono in PvE you either have to bring the option back to cover quickness AND alacrity or you need to buff its support capabilities, especially healing. You dont have to make it as broken as hfb but the way it is now is just a sad sight.

I mean, I can count with one hand the amount of times I saw a (hybrid) support chrono in endgame PvE, excluding its portal slave job in w3, in the past months. 

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18 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

As a chrono enjoyer I like distortion back but its... weird. Not as weird as distortion on virtuoso though. This makes it a literal machine in PvE. Its not like we need more broken stuff right after mech gets finally adjusted a bit.

To fix chrono in PvE you either have to bring the option back to cover quickness AND alacrity or you need to buff its support capabilities, especially healing. You dont have to make it as broken as hfb but the way it is now is just a sad sight.

I mean, I can count with one hand the amount of times I saw a (hybrid) support chrono in endgame PvE, excluding its portal slave job in w3, in the past months. 

 

I agree - I'm a ride or die chrono player and its rough out there.  With a good rotation I still can't put up the DPS of a condi OR power virtuoso, let alone how much simpler their rotations are.  On the other side, we also cant support as well as other classes - and to get close we again have to put in more work during the rotation.

I wish alacrity had stayed on chrono and mirage picked up quickness - which would have made more sense thematically, but that ship has sailed.  For DPS, chronophantasma should be reverted to have the re-summoned phantasms do 100% of the original damage.  Sword 2 also needs a dps increase - its been far too low for a long time.  For support I'd take anything - remove ground targeted wells and have the buffs/effects pulse every second in a radius around the mesmer - it would make positioning far more controllable.  I'd also be happy to see healing option, but don't know enough about the role to give any advice.

Regardless, chrono has been in a bad place for a long time now.  The worst part is even if the damage was there, its just not very fun to play - the cool parts (like popping boons then sharing them at strategic times with your teammates) have been carved up and made clunky, and the trait lines are a mess.

Edited by Hiemdal.4367
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2 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

Sword 2 dps is too low in PvE? I wish we had that damage in PvP/WvW. Sure, it's an evade that does damage and needs a drawback. But it already has the drawback of rooting you in place. Either remove that or give more damage to it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Speed

May I introduce you to 10k evade crits from zerk eles while havin an evade? Other evade skills have got ~30%+ damage nerfs while BS got cd increased a bit, smh (50% on https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy)

Edited by semak.7481
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On 9/20/2022 at 2:27 PM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

And about the instacast: for every clone, shattering means "hit this guy at any given time, 0.5s from now to actually never"; even on melee range, the AI in GW2 works in ticks which -seemingly- take anywhere from 0.5s to 1s before being executed 

lil question in between my tests about the nature of the Ai ticks (since you have more knowledge about programming than me, i can understand most stuff of programming by logic but i miss the pure knowledge):

 

those ticks are a global server ticks or does every clone by itself start this tick in a personal manner? or is it a bit of both? im asking bc in the very small sample of 4 tries i did until now, i had a minimum delay from 0,4 secs between pressing the button on mirror images and the dmg applications from the clones from the f1 command. if the ai tick would be pure server global it could theoretically happen i luckily spawn a clone and press f1 directly the moment the global server tick will happen and the delay then will be even lower than 0,4? 

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59 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

How AI works? 

You see that by yourself with Infinite Horizon, every clone will use their own ambush at slightly different moments in time.
For all we care, from a very broad point of view, every AI has its own internal clock we aren't meant to have any knowledge of. If it didn't, it would become too noticeable having every AI in the game always turning\attacking at the same exact moment.
I can't know for certain if any single NPC has its own inner clock or AI in GW2 has the concept of groups of AIs (as in: when NPCs spawn they get randomly assigned to group 1 out of, IDK 10; on some tick I run AI for group1, then wait a while and run AI for group2, then wait a while and group3 and so on until I can cycle back to the beginning), but this doesn't concern us: for all we care, each AI thinks on its own.
This is normal in the game industry because AI "thinking" is not the worst offender in terms of server performances -and in GW2 is very linear anyway-, but it's not lightweight either, and the pathfinding algorithm is something to keep track of, so... it's standard practice to run it once every while, rather than every frame where most likely nothing significant changes.
That's as far as what I know for certain, as some dev talked about it on reddit a while ago. I have reason to believe (which means "I don't know for certain, but it makes sense with what I observe) a dev can "force" an AI to think in response to certain events. For example, summoning a phantasm will force the guy to "think" either immediately or very fast, rather than waiting for the next natural tick, and this becomes particularly noticeable on phantasmal rogue, which doesn't seem to have this kind of behavior and for this reason feels REALLY sluggish.

There are other behaviors: BIG enemies, which are more static props than anything else, work very differently, and bosses\PoF new enemies have a more sophisticated AI, but this doesn't concern clones as they are designed to be dumb.

Edited by Terrorhuz.4695
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GW2 AI think rate is the same but start at different points because they're spawned at different times.  When an illusion is first summoned that starts the counter and available pathing to a target or if no target exists.  What the illusion does next is done by a series of rules - whether you're in combat or not, pathing, ability ready to be used, etc.  Then when you spawn another illusion and then shatter, they will typically run at different times unless two illusions are spawned at the same time.

Unless something has changed but that's the extent of what I know about how pets work.

Edit:  Basically what Terror wrote above.

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@Terrorhuz.4695 @phokus.8934

 

yes yes i know. the usual macro management of ai im aware off (pathing and that you command/ order them etc) its about the micro management, i just missed until now that there is some fixed (volatile but fixed) delay even in pure melee range (means no movement from clones needed) even on instant commands. and the question is how low the delay between the mesmer clicking the button and the dmg application can be.

 

since i was measuring the delay from the button click on mirropr images (not even from f1 what is even a smaller delay since there is some personal button spam delay in case you are not using a macro) to the dmg application from the mirror images clones. and i had a minimum of 0,4 secs  already. maximum was around the same agripastrilemma had in his one sample size vid. 

 

that is very close to the limit of not being reactive counterplayable for the opponent. esp since you also have to substract the delay between the mesmer clicking mirror images and the clones actually rendering visible on screen (what is from mesmers pov another 0,133 secs less delay in avg. the time between mesmer clicking mirror images and clones actually rendering on opponents screen can even be  longer since ping/ server delay etc is different for opponents than for the players own actions)

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On 9/20/2022 at 8:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I'm looking to quit the game now anyway so no need to get back to me. 😃

sad to hear but still i will respond since i have to put stuff right, fighting for the truth and for me here. its ok when you dont wanna do the effort to answer tho. i will not be mad.

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Not towards Mirage, towards your very specific build.

i rly dont get, how it can be so hard to understand, that you are follwing a spurious correlation.: let me try to explain it even more easy: when im biased towards high skill ceiling because i personally have only fun in playing max possible difficult and also reactive/ interactive fair balanced builds and want to be as least as possible carried by build, what do you think a build i make with that purpose in mind would look like?

ofc the power ih/de portal mirage build avoids ON PURPOSE all the stuff i consider too op or too low skill ceiling/cap, since that build is exactly made with my bias towards high skill ceiling in mind. so ofc its the one that needs the least nerfs (still needs the few i mentioned and i already voted for those changes BEFORE anet removed the second dodge or reworked mantras to current state) and ofc this build NATURALLY BY LOGIC comes the closest to what i consider maximum possible high skill ceiling. since I MADE THAT BUILD ON PURPOSE to fit the best to my bias towards maximum high skill ceiling. the moment chrono would be more skillful than mirage i would just switch to chrono since nothing else is holding me back from enjoying chrono, virtu or other mirage builds as much as that specific mirage build.

 

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Afaik the only way you nerf your own build is general Mirage nerfs which affect multiple/all Mirage builds (desert Distortion), which you obviously compensate richly for that with the two dodges. On the other hand we can look at some other builds:

Domi/duel SC Mirage: you remove SC completely

Domi/illu Mirage: Master of Misdirection nerf, removal of Illusionary Ambush, removal of Shatter Storm, Signet of Illu removal.

Domi/illu Power Chrono: nerfed damage, removal of Shatter Storm, nerf of CS duration (Master of Fragmentation), nerf of Master of Misdirection, hard nerf of Mirror Images.

Condi Mirage: removal of target break on axe, Master of Misdirection nerf, Signet of Illu nerf.

already answered that right above. my nerf suggestions hitting my own build i already voted for before the dodge removal and mantra rework. so that is also a fake argument that is simply wrong.

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yeah from what you have written previously. It would be foolish not to recognize that bias. Alas, I read the doc with an open mind and judged it on its own merits.

already answered but again to be sure it gets understood this time: i dont deny bias but you missinterpret the correlation and because of that your claim is wrong and you cannot use it to easy devalue my suggestions just by jumping into the thread and calling me biased without even explaining which of my suggestions you consider bad AND WHY. that is not constructive, its unnecessary aggressive and trashtalky and with that comes along pretty negatively biased towards me.

 

as if i just try to nerf everything except my own build.  and as if i would try to make my build look the most skillful because i enjoy it the most, while its quite the opposite: i enjoy the build the most bc it fits my bias towards high skill ceiling more than any other build i know until now. still i clearly try to be objective with my suggestions and judge traits/skills etc on mesmer and all classes as fair as i can and rate them by their skill ceiling/power lvl balance/ healthyness only and not by what i have the most fun with (also that would even be the same since my fun is almost ONLY determinded by high skill ceiling and not by the pink colour of the skillbar or the class/spec identity)

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I certainly didn't try hard in this thread, I wrote a quick conclusion of my opinions on the document because I didn't want to spend more time on it since Anet are not going to read it anyway.

I suppose you do have something better to do, despite responding trice after saying you aren't going to reply.

the only things you did when jumping in was trying to prove my bias by missinterpreting my stuff i said about nerfing chrono dmg and then calling my doc driven by my usual bias. that is not objective, not constructive, not rly pma and also wrong on top.

 

and ofc i answered in the end even tho its a pain to talk to you most of the time and i wanted to end the dispute, but you (probs also a bit on purpose) effectively triggered me back in with claiming wrong stuff.  

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I have never done that.

true, you have not said that but what you say lit by logic can only mean im either lying (to myself and others) or i simply dont know myself. there is no other possibility why you think you know better than myself what my real bias is. 

 

if you dont know what killer phrases/ killer arguments are then google the definition. will help you in the future to avoid such unfair debate tactics which only care for winning an argument no matter what and dont care for constructive discussing about the topic and finding out the truth/reality.

 

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Guess so, that would make sense.

no it doesnt make sense as just described. its an unfair tactical fightinstrument (you were in a debate club at some point?) that doesnt give me any fair option to react to you others than saying "you are right i simply dont know myself" and it makes your claim look like god-given law while its only a claim you dont care to prove other than by fake logic or another unproven claim. 

 

i could do the same and say: since i look on you from the outside i tell you, that you infact are biased towards me and not at all dealt with anything in this thread objective. (and since NOW i am the one looking from the outside onto you  here, i guess im 100% right or is it only you being god when looking from the outside and detecting the real bias from someone?).

 

i did something different, what i did was informing you that the way you act/write comes along pretty biased,  it comes along as if... that isnt wirtten like a law, it gives you room to argue and that way i also respects the possibility that you just acted in an unlucky way, were generally in a bad mood and i just was the victim you casted your frustration on or that i missunderstand you while you are not rly meaning it as trashtalky as it felt for me. while in contrary you just claim im biased toward the one build and you are 100% sure right about that, since you know me better than i know myself. what gives me no other option to interact with you than kneeling down infront of your god given claim from the outside.

 

i also could just say that you just dont like my suggestions because you subjectively enjoy chrono, illu ambush, signet of illusion etc despite its lower skill ceiling, that YOU just think chrono etc  is high skill ceiling BECAUSE you are enjoying to play it while you also wanna lie to yourself that you are not carried by certain stuff when playing illusion power chrono or that you just miss that you are carried by the stuff i wanna nerf, you miss it bc of your own limited subjective inside view. i can also just claim that you have a from yourself hidden bias towards core or chrono etc. and since i look from the outside onto you, i know it better than yourself, so im 100000% right about it. checkmated!

 

since we both look from the godlike outside on each other who is right now??? 

you get what i mean? its just an unfair and destructive way or fighting vs me instead objectively discussing based on facts and logic and i never would argue like that. sadly you do

 

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You just became very offended because I said I thought your document had some decent points but was mostly mediocre.

I don't know what killerphrases or deny-claims are but sure, ok.

yes you did came in destructive, make it look very negatively biased towards me and also as if you are more busy to prove my bias toward one build than actually constructive discussion my suggestions. i never minded you simply diagreeing with me. and its easy to find the prove by scrolling up (also you edited some of your posts bit later to make them look less rude, as example: the addition that being stubborn isnt necessary a bad thing).

 

just google killer argument. with deny claims i mean that i say something like:: "dude you come along negatively biased towards me because you write this and that or because you just claim and dont explain" and all you do is once again only claiming: "nope that is not true, im objective" (prove  or at least logical arguments still missing)

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Many things you mention aren't important. When was the last time you actually got oneshot by something like a Mirror Images -> Shatter combo? It may seem great on paper to use something like Mirror Blade -> Blink -> Mirror Images -> Mind Wrack (or from stealth) but in practice it doesn't really work. I have not been oneshot by MI in years and years.

Besides, having a short cast time like 0.25 seconds wouldn't allow you to dodge it on reaction anyway.

they are all important to bring the class (and hopefully all classes in reaction to that) down to a less power creeped lvl that has a way higher skill ceiling than the game and lot of mesmer stuff currently has. that is what i talk about. i dont think it makes sesne to refuse every nerf discussion just because other classes are equally or even more inbalanced/ unhealthy/ braindead playable.

 

you have to define where you wanna go with your balance ideas, otherwise nothing will ever be nerfed (when all main-player never suggest nerfs to their class as long as more broken stuff exist) and then we can just all play a braindead game where we are all equally carried but no one needs skill for the game. since ofc the better player will always win or at least not die but that happens on a low skill lv where everyone can make 30000 mistake without being punished or just braindead spam low cd high impact skills or non reactive instant dmg skills for easy low effort pressure. not a game i would spend time on playing.

so ofc other classes need even more nerfs than mesmer in current state but that doesnt mean i cant make balance suggestion to describe the optimum of skill requirement and power lvl i personally want to have in the game/ for mesmer

and the "other classes are way more broken"- mimimi is just not leading anywhere,  just prevents going forward towards good and skillful balance.

 

and its doesnt matter if i personally didnt get oneshot since years, its about what is factual and by basic balance logic interactive and skillful and balanced in power lvl and what is not. 

  

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I know you said that, but it doesn't really work to just say that in a game which is financed pretty much entirely by its PvE - if you want devs to take your post seriously.

when i mention several times that my suggestions are on purpose made in a way they allow easy compensation in pve by number splits then it should be enough to take it serious. esp after anet just announced a patch with pvp driven mechanical changes. one reason i restarted posting and seeing hope. since when they stay with the "we do only number splits in pvp and all mechanical stuff is PURELY pve driven", than there is no room for discussion. with that they will by default never reach good balance in pvp and i can stop wassting time to write in this forum. but it seems, with the last patch that they (maybe slowly but the first step is done) go away from this pure pve focus when it comes to mechanics. 

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Because I think you are wrong about what things are skilled or not and what things are problems or not.

you still fail outside of Mirror images to explain and argue WHY. you can have your subjective opinion but its just a subjective opinion at this point as long as you fail to come with good arguments and explanations based on facts, logic and proper empiric research. claiming is easy but proves nothing and will never convince me. 

 

On 9/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Clone summoning skills being unblindable is the standard. Phase Retreat, Illusionary Leap, Deceptive Evasion, Mirage Thrust (sword ambush), Decoy - everything summons clones while blinded except skills that need to hit an enemy in order to summon clones, like Mirror Blade and Bladecall.

that something is standard or "was always like that" doesnt prove that it is good as it is. what a narrowed argument is that? (at least its an argument and not just a claim, you getting better...)

 

also i dont see a massive issue with clone skills not being blindable when the skill only provides ONE clone, i sure see a balance issue when the skill provides 2 clones. 

 

despite the mirror images topic and the new informations you and terror gave to me: i still need further testing (bigger sample) to get a better idea about the ai delay and its variations. so need bit more time.

Edited by JazzXman.7018
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20 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 @phokus.8934

 

yes yes i know. the usual macro management of ai im aware off (pathing and that you command/ order them etc) its about the micro management, i just missed until now that there is some fixed (volatile but fixed) delay even in pure melee range (means no movement from clones needed) even on instant commands. and the question is how low the delay between the mesmer clicking the button and the dmg application can be.

 

since i was measuring the delay from the button click on mirropr images (not even from f1 what is even a smaller delay since there is some personal button spam delay in case you are not using a macro) to the dmg application from the mirror images clones. and i had a minimum of 0,4 secs  already. maximum was around the same agripastrilemma had in his one sample size vid. 

 

that is very close to the limit of not being reactive counterplayable for the opponent. esp since you also have to substract the delay between the mesmer clicking mirror images and the clones actually rendering visible on screen (what is from mesmers pov another 0,133 secs less delay in avg. the time between mesmer clicking mirror images and clones actually rendering on opponents screen can even be  longer since ping/ server delay etc is different for opponents than for the players own actions)

My measurement in the video was from the illusionary persona hit to the clone hit, if I had counted from when I pressed Mirror Images it would have been even longer

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14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

sad to hear but still i will respond since i have to put stuff right, fighting for the truth and for me here. its ok when you dont wanna do the effort to answer tho. i will not be mad.

i rly dont get, how it can be so hard to understand, that you are follwing a spurious correlation.: let me try to explain it even more easy: when im biased towards high skill ceiling because i personally have only fun in playing max possible difficult and also reactive/ interactive fair balanced builds and want to be as least as possible carried by build, what do you think a build i make with that purpose in mind would look like?

ofc the power ih/de portal mirage build avoids ON PURPOSE all the stuff i consider too op or too low skill ceiling/cap, since that build is exactly made with my bias towards high skill ceiling in mind. so ofc its the one that needs the least nerfs (still needs the few i mentioned and i already voted for those changes BEFORE anet removed the second dodge or reworked mantras to current state) and ofc this build NATURALLY BY LOGIC comes the closest to what i consider maximum possible high skill ceiling. since I MADE THAT BUILD ON PURPOSE to fit the best to my bias towards maximum high skill ceiling. the moment chrono would be more skillful than mirage i would just switch to chrono since nothing else is holding me back from enjoying chrono, virtu or other mirage builds as much as that specific mirage build.

Yeah you have said it multiple times, I just think that you are wrong. It is very easy to make/play your favorite build and claim "this is the most skilled build in the game". As a specific example of you not understanding what is skilled or not, you claimed that Illusionary Ambush has a low skill cap, which is just wrong, it is actually one of higher skill cap utilities in this game.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

already answered that right above. my nerf suggestions hitting my own build i already voted for before the dodge removal and mantra rework. so that is also a fake argument that is simply wrong.

"hitting my own build i already voted for" I don't understand what this means.

You say that mantra has been overnerfed since they removed the F3 cooldown decrease and want it to be buffed: "Also they got overnerfed in cd since the count recharge is currently too high when mes cant reset both dazes with the old 12 secs active mantra recharge anymore." "Atm daze mantra cd (and other mantras also check fb mantras) is bit overnerfed, 18 secs count recharge should be something to consider."

Meanwhile you wish to straight-up remove or heavily nerf important aspects from pretty much all other Mesmer builds as I detailed in my post above.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

already answered but again to be sure it gets understood this time: i dont deny bias but you missinterpret the correlation and because of that your claim is wrong and you cannot use it to easy devalue my suggestions just by jumping into the thread and calling me biased without even explaining which of my suggestions you consider bad AND WHY. that is not constructive, its unnecessary aggressive and trashtalky and with that comes along pretty negatively biased towards me.

Yeah, because I didn't have a lot of time and because I know that Anet will not read it anyway (so it has zero effect on the game)  I responded to the document with a short summary of my impressions rather than responding in detail to each point. Might make a comment go point-by-point later though since you are asking so nicely, if I get the time to do it. There is no need to be this insanely offended because I personally didn't love your document. It doesn't "devalue your suggestions" unless you think the value of your suggestions is dependent on my impressions of them.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

as if i just try to nerf everything except my own build.

You pretty much do actually.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and as if i would try to make my build look the most skillful because i enjoy it the most, while its quite the opposite: i enjoy the build the most bc it fits my bias towards high skill ceiling more than any other build i know until now. still i clearly try to be objective with my suggestions and judge traits/skills etc on mesmer and all classes as fair as i can and rate them by their skill ceiling/power lvl balance/ healthyness only and not by what i have the most fun with (also that would even be the same since my fun is almost ONLY determinded by high skill ceiling and not by the pink colour of the skillbar or the class/spec identity)

Same discussion as above.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

the only things you did when jumping in was trying to prove my bias by missinterpreting my stuff i said about nerfing chrono dmg and then calling my doc driven by my usual bias. that is not objective, not constructive, not rly pma and also wrong on top.

I didn't misinterpret you, I directly quoted and challenged you about chrono having too much shatter damage without proper counterplay, after which you finally essentially agreed that it was wrong/incomplete to specifically go after chrono when core and Mirage have higher instant shatter damage.

"that is not objective, not constructive, not rly pma and also wrong on top."

Hilarious. Of course it isn't objective. Even if I decide to go through and respond to your doc in detail point-by-point it would still not be objective. None of our suggestions are, by definition.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and ofc i answered in the end even tho its a pain to talk to you most of the time and i wanted to end the dispute, but you (probs also a bit on purpose) effectively triggered me back in with claiming wrong stuff.  

Yeah, you said you wouldn't respond multiple times but then came back anyway, as I said. Thus it is a bit cheap and unconvincing when you say "if you have nothing better to do" to me.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

true, you have not said that but what you say lit by logic can only mean im either lying (to myself and others) or i simply dont know myself. there is no other possibility why you think you know better than myself what my real bias is. 

I have my analysis and impressions of the way you write and communicate, from which I have drawn the conclusion that you do have a bias in a certain direction and that this contributes to some/many of your suggestions and ideas about the game being somewhat misguided. The reason(s) why you don't agree with me on this (it should be noted that this is expected, people obviously rarely know/admit their own biases) is not relevant in the least.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

if you dont know what killer phrases/ killer arguments are then google the definition. will help you in the future to avoid such unfair debate tactics which only care for winning an argument no matter what and dont care for constructive discussing about the topic and finding out the truth/reality.

https://imgur.com/a/R6eXiKQ

I mostly got a bunch of unrelated items. Looks like it is mainly a German thing going by some of the links. You may be interested in this however, which is more common in english: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliché

Again, there is no truth/reality to find here, all of our suggestions are necessarily subjective and also won't be heard by Anet and thus will not change the game whatsoever. The only reason to post on the forums is to pointlessly argue.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

no it doesnt make sense as just described. its an unfair tactical fightinstrument (you were in a debate club at some point?) that doesnt give me any fair option to react to you others than saying "you are right i simply dont know myself" and it makes your claim look like god-given law while its only a claim you dont care to prove other than by fake logic or another unproven claim. 

In other words: it is my personal impression. How crazy.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i could do the same and say: since i look on you from the outside i tell you, that you infact are biased towards me and not at all dealt with anything in this thread objective. (and since NOW i am the one looking from the outside onto you  here, i guess im 100% right or is it only you being god when looking from the outside and detecting the real bias from someone?).

That's fine, you can have that impression if you wish, unlike you I won't be so offended I have to write five+ walls of text pointlessly defending myself from it.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i did something different, what i did was informing you that the way you act/write comes along pretty biased,  it comes along as if... that isnt wirtten like a law, it gives you room to argue and that way i also respects the possibility that you just acted in an unlucky way, were generally in a bad mood and i just was the victim you casted your frustration on or that i missunderstand you while you are not rly meaning it as trashtalky as it felt for me. while in contrary you just claim im biased toward the one build and you are 100% sure right about that, since you know me better than i know myself. what gives me no other option to interact with you than kneeling down infront of your god given claim from the outside.

"i did something different, what i did was informing you that the way you act/write comes along pretty biased"

What? That's the opposite of different, that's basically exactly what I said about you that you just railed against in the previous paragraph.

"no other option to interact with you than kneeling down infront of your god given claim from the outside."

You are welcome to, if you wish.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i also could just say that you just dont like my suggestions because you subjectively enjoy chrono, illu ambush, signet of illusion etc despite its lower skill ceiling, that YOU just think chrono etc  is high skill ceiling BECAUSE you are enjoying to play it while you also wanna lie to yourself that you are not carried by certain stuff when playing illusion power chrono or that you just miss that you are carried by the stuff i wanna nerf, you miss it bc of your own limited subjective inside view. i can also just claim that you have a from yourself hidden bias towards core or chrono etc. and since i look from the outside onto you, i know it better than yourself, so im 100000% right about it. checkmated!

First of all I have played more Mirage (mostly power IH by the way) and Core (and Virtuoso recently) than Chronomancer. Second of all I typically do better on Mirage/Virtuoso than Chronomancer, so Chrono most certainly isn't carrying me. Third of all I like Focus over Pistol and in fact I do not play most of the skills etc we have been talking about, such as Illusionary Ambush and Mirror Images. Why? Because Mirror Images sucks.

There you go, claims disproven, QED.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

since we both look from the godlike outside on each other who is right now??? 

Neither of us are objectively correct in a platonic sense, that's not how it works. Also, see above.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you get what i mean? its just an unfair and destructive way or fighting vs me instead objectively discussing based on facts and logic and i never would argue like that. sadly you do

Again, you cannot objectively come to conclusions about balance suggestions, that just isn't how it works. Believing that you can is misguided and foolish.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

yes you did came in destructive, make it look very negatively biased towards me and also as if you are more busy to prove my bias toward one build than actually constructive discussion my suggestions. i never minded you simply diagreeing with me. and its easy to find the prove by scrolling up (also you edited some of your posts bit later to make them look less rude, as example: the addition that being stubborn isnt necessary a bad thing).

You certainly did mind, quite a bit, that my impressions of your document weren't ravingly positive, hence all these messages back and forth.

Nope, I did not edit that part about stubbornness in after the fact. Stop making up false claims.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

just google killer argument.

Ok, you said killerphrase, which is apparently a German thing.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

with deny claims i mean that i say something like:: "dude you come along negatively biased towards me because you write this and that or because you just claim and dont explain" and all you do is once again only claiming: "nope that is not true, im objective" (prove  or at least logical arguments still missing)

 

they are all important to bring the class (and hopefully all classes in reaction to that) down to a less power creeped lvl that has a way higher skill ceiling than the game and lot of mesmer stuff currently has. that is what i talk about. i dont think it makes sesne to refuse every nerf discussion just because other classes are equally or even more inbalanced/ unhealthy/ braindead playable.

First of all, nerfing Mirror Images (which is what we were talking about here) wouldn't bring down power creep:

1. Mirror Images has existed in the game since the start in 2012, back when shatters by the way did more damage than now. That is not power creep.

2. None of the good Mesmer builds use Mirror Images. Even Power Chronomancers like Shorts aren't using it.

Second of all, I don't "refuse every nerf discussion", you just made that up. I said that I think removing Distortion from Blurred Inscriptions is a good idea for example.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you have to define where you wanna go with your balance ideas, otherwise nothing will ever be nerfed (when all main-player never suggest nerfs to their class as long as more broken stuff exist) and then we can just all play a braindead game where we are all equally carried but no one needs skill for the game. since ofc the better player will always win or at least not die but that happens on a low skill lv where everyone can make 30000 mistake without being punished or just braindead spam low cd high impact skills or non reactive instant dmg skills for easy low effort pressure. not a game i would spend time on playing.

So you think that nothing will ever be nerfed unless I, Agrippastrilemma, "define where I want go with my balance ideas"? Very interesting that you think I, or anyone on here for that matter, has any power whatsoever over game balance. Also, I have made numerous posts about bugs/QoL/balance in the past, not least for Virtuoso during the beta, which of course made exactly zero difference, most of the bugs I reported have not even been touched.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

so ofc other classes need even more nerfs than mesmer in current state but that doesnt mean i cant make balance suggestion to describe the optimum of skill requirement and power lvl i personally want to have in the game/ for mesmer

and the "other classes are way more broken"- mimimi is just not leading anywhere,  just prevents going forward towards good and skillful balance.

I never said that you "cant make balance suggestion[s]".

I also never really make the "other classes are way more broken argument", I'm probably one of the absolute last player on this forum to do that. For example, I have been skeptical towards giving a second dodge back to Mirage and critical of giving Distortion to Virtuoso, which I obviously would not be if I cared about Mesmer being strong relative to other classes - then I would be cheering for it.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and its doesnt matter if i personally didnt get oneshot since years, its about what is factual and by basic balance logic interactive and skillful and balanced in power lvl and what is not. 

No, what matters is what actually transpires in the actual game. Reading that Mirror Images has no cast time on the gw2 wiki and deciding you want to nerf it because of that is asinine. If I never get oneshot by MI and can't really oneshot people (who react) with MI then I should obviously draw the conclusion that it isn't some big problem, as you make it out to be.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

when i mention several times that my suggestions are on purpose made in a way they allow easy compensation in pve by number splits then it should be enough to take it serious. esp after anet just announced a patch with pvp driven mechanical changes. one reason i restarted posting and seeing hope. since when they stay with the "we do only number splits in pvp and all mechanical stuff is PURELY pve driven", than there is no room for discussion. with that they will by default never reach good balance in pvp and i can stop wassting time to write in this forum. but it seems, with the last patch that they (maybe slowly but the first step is done) go away from this pure pve focus when it comes to mechanics. 

You have fun with that, just don't expect them to remove Superiority Complex is all I can say.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you still fail outside of Mirror images to explain and argue WHY. you can have your subjective opinion but its just a subjective opinion at this point as long as you fail to come with good arguments and explanations based on facts, logic and proper empiric research. claiming is easy but proves nothing and will never convince me. 

Again, of course my opinion on what should be nerfed, how the game should be etc. subjective opinions, by definition. So are your suggestions, that is simply how it works and not realizing this means you are stuck in square one.

The point of debates/heated discussions is not really to convince the other party. Doing so is astronomically rare, especially online. So, I have absolutely zero expectation to convince you or change your mind.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

that something is standard or "was always like that" doesnt prove that it is good as it is. what a narrowed argument is that? (at least its an argument and not just a claim, you getting better...)

Bad counterargument. The point is first of all that you are singling out Mirror Images and complaining that it isn't blindable when none of the clone-summoning skills are blindable meaning that this has nothing to do with MI in the first place, and second of all that you are complaining about MI being an instant clone-summon that thus allows for instant damage, when there are plenty of other instant clone-summoning skills that you do not mention. Due to the way MW scales the diff between 1 and 2 clone shatters isn't even all that significant which is one major reason MI isn't a very strong skill.

14 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

also i dont see a massive issue with clone skills not being blindable when the skill only provides ONE clone, i sure see a balance issue when the skill provides 2 clones. 

Ok, apparently skills that summon 1 clone should not be blindable but skills that summon 2 clones should be blindable. Seems like a very consistent and objective suggestion and not at all confusing for players that Mirror Images can be blinded while you can use Deceptive Evasion + Phase Retreat or Deceptive Evasion + Jaunt or Decoy with Escape Artist trait to do instant unblindable 2-clone summons. Or maybe the Decoy clone summon should be blindable only if you have Escape Artist traited? Who knows.

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12 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

My measurement in the video was from the illusionary persona hit to the clone hit, if I had counted from when I pressed Mirror Images it would have been even longer

sry i dont get that post. what you write is lit the exact same than what i said in my post you quoted.

 

10 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Ok, apparently skills that summon 1 clone should not be blindable but skills that summon 2 clones should be blindable. Seems like a very consistent and objective suggestion and not at all confusing for players that Mirror Images can be blinded while you can use Deceptive Evasion + Phase Retreat or Deceptive Evasion + Jaunt or Decoy with Escape Artist trait to do instant unblindable 2-clone summons. Or maybe the Decoy clone summon should be blindable only if you have Escape Artist traited? Who knows.

ye because 2>1. so having 2 or 1clones on only one button is a difference, esp in the power lvl of that one button compared to a button only providing one clone. the need to click 2 bottons for 2 clones is not only a higher cd investment to get 2 clones, it also adds more player generated delay (depending on keybinds more or less, but sure a bit more in any case) by the need to click more buttons for the same amount of clones. you subjectively (depending on your personal taste) still dont see a difference here? also i didnt say that i have zero problem with clone gen skills not being blindable, i just said it have less of a problem with it. l2read.

 

i will answer the rest of your longer post later (another day) since i atm wanna more focus on the actual topic, which is the pro and cons of my suggestions from the pov of other players and not the bias you accuse me wrongfully of.

 

also our communication is heavily jammed and i also see very little sense in talking that much longer to someone who doesnt believe anyhting i say about myself no matter how much i swear about something that cant rly be proved by maths and no matter what arguments i come up with. there is no room for discussion with you then, when it is your permanent claim that no matter what arguments i have you only say you think im wrong (about myself).

 

all i can say is, that i would have never jumped into any of your threads the way you did it here. no matter how much i like or dislike you, i would have been more constructive and less accusing.  i dont ask for much. its just basic social competence. if i would join a thread of yours or answer to a post from you, i would not start with only: " your suggestions are mediocre and the only reasoning for my judgement i mention is: your suggestions are mediocre because you are biased toward core mesmer builds anyway". that is just a zero value post no one can brainstorm with, no one can constructive work with. it just comes along trashtalky and aggressive.

 

you can be sure, that i expected a lot of disagreement when i post a doc with mostly nerfs in a class forum. if i would care about that, if i would bother, i could just not post the doc here. simple logic.

 

and as easy to check by upscrolling,, other ppl disagreed with me too, like terrorhuz and i didnt feel offended by him or anyone else (the only one also crossed the line of just claiming without reasoning and argument/explanations to back up his opinions was phokus). so that proves by logic, that you disagreeing with me by itself wasnt my problem.

 

also you can be sure, that if i would care for specific persons to agree with me it would be terrorhuz way before you. so terrorhuz disagreeing with me would bother me in the first place not your disagreement. also that shows pretty obvious, that it is something else that triggers me about you (it is your still running destructive way to behave and fight, not your disagreement by its own). terrorhuz constructive disagreeing with adding reasoning/explanations made me not get offended by him even tho he also disagreed a lot. 

 

12 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I do not agree with most of these changes. This more of a wish list of how the should play vs trying to resolve existing issues. Mirage has no issues in pve and all are issues in pvp can be resolved with undoing some of the nerfs. 

yes that is true and i never claimed it to be something else than a doc that gives suggestions how to reach the "should be"-state of skill requirement, power lvl and fair balance imo. that is why i mentioned right in the start of the doc, that those suggestions are meant for a gamestate were other classes get nerfed to around the same power lvl as mesmer, so that mes is at least not totally trash compared to them. 

 

you were not 100% clear, would you agree to the suggestions in case other classes would be way weaker than their current state and also weaker than mes (lets imagine/assume all other classes already got nerfed down hard)? if not feel free to tell me which ones you think are in general bad and why. ofc no need to put in the effort but im intersted in constructive feedback (brainstorming).


if i get your goal right, it is more to solve mesmers actual issues (you mean the issue that mes not being  meta since years i assume?) and that only depending on the current state of the game? than my doc ofc isnt rly intersting for you and you look for a suggestion doc with a different context/ mind set. 

 

if you ask me how to make mesmer viable in current gamestate than i sadly have no good ideas, since im not a fan of buffing underperforming stuff to be able to compete with the current broken, power creeped and low skill cap state the game imo has atm. i only can say that i think anet should not buff anything (also not mesmer) in current state and need to reduce the mobility power creep they added with eod (on all classes just not mesmer...) but also by reducing overall swiftness and superspeed uptime, nerf dmg overall on more or less all classes by 30% (not randomly but on specific overperfoming keyskills) while nerfing sustain even harder (maybe around 60%,) to prevent bunker meta (just random numbers to point out the ratio) while going for passive sustain/resustain first, then reduce active ones out of the too spamable/chainable amount.

but that isnt rly very detailed, only a general direction i would like the game to go.

Edited by JazzXman.7018
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On 9/20/2022 at 2:27 PM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

AI in gw2 ticks every 0.5\1-ish seconds
And about the instacast: for every clone, shattering means "hit this guy at any given time, 0.5s from now to actually never"; even on melee range, the AI in GW2 works in ticks which -seemingly- take anywhere from 0.5s to 1s before being executed 

If anything, devs could add a visual effect on the mesmer -a brief flash, or something of the sorts-, so you have a better visual indicator to warn people that mirror images has been casted. But not an animation. This phantasm\clone madness is slow enough already as it is.

im finally done with my little research about the ai delay. it was suggested from you terrorhuz, that ai (every single clone) has A MINIMUM of 0,5 secs delay in melee range even on instant commands. agripastrilemma even suggests that it is always around 0,77 secs (from the f1 click to all clones hitting the target).

 

if it would have rly been like that, then i would have agreed to your proposal to only add a tell but not a casttime to mirror images.  then the opponent has an effective reaction time for counterplay of 0,5 secs before he gets hit by the first clone. that would be the minimum delay i suggested in one post in this thread by giving it a 0,5 secs casttime. i would have been fine with that tell bc then mirror images would have had the minimum delay it needs to be reactive counterplayable. still not necessary an utility i would enjoy to use with my personal bias towarsds high skill ceiling (since for my taste it still makes playing mes too easy) but sure an improvement to current state that would be acceptable and sufficient in terms of counterplayability.

 

 

sadly my tests of the ai delay showed some other numbers (i add a vid link in the end so you can check if i maybe did something wrong during testing/measuring bc i rly wonder why they are so different to what was claimed. also agri should not use the dmg log in chat to measure since sometimes the dmg log has delays, better use the dmg numbers appearing on the target which sadly are missing in agris video).

 

i tested with different skills like gs2-f1 and decoy-f1 and mirror images-f1 (measuring the delay now from the f1 Illusionary persona hit to the hit of the clones just like agri did in his vid, since seems like agri got bit confused why i first measured already from the mirror images click).

 

my sample: 10 tries with mirror images, 6 tries with gs2, 7 tries with decoy. i made sure i always had the same distance to the target (i repositioned to exact same position in the start of every try).

 

 

Results

 

1. The lowest delay from pressing f1/hitting IP from myself and the first clone hitting his own dmg on the target was 0,000 secs.     

   other very low delays happend were 0,066 and 0,03 and 0,166 and few times 0,200 and 0,266. means there is in most cases but not all cases a very volatile ai delay from shattered clones in melee range but its often far lower than the claimed 0,5-0,77 secs.

2. The highest delay i had on the second clone of mirror images was 0,7 secs what only happend one time in the 10 tries, all other        delays were lower

3. In average the delay of the first clone hitting from mirror images was 0,376 secs, while the minimum was 0,266 what happend more than one time in 10 tries. 

4. The second clone of mirror images hit in average 0,245 secs after the first clone.

5. My personal skill click delay between mirror images and f1 was usually between 0,133-0,166

6. while both clones from mirror images usually needed 0,200-0,233 secs for their models to render on my screen after clicking mirror images (unknown is, how much time the clones need to render on the opponents screen, since he prob has a bigger server delay/ ping towards the mesmers actions than the mesmer itself)

7. No.5 and 6 together mean: if the mesmer is not super slow with clicking f1 after mirror images then the clones are only rendered around 0,310 secs before the first clone hits avg (minus an unknown additional delay from opponents pov) while the clone models also then were visually overwritten by the pink shatter smokefield around the mesmer if the mesmer was near enough to the clones.

8. since other skills with clone generation produced a delay between 0,000 and 0,700 it can be, that a bigger sample with mirror images tries can even lead to a lower delay than 0,266 (what was the minimum in my 10 tries, @Terrorhuz.4695 i think we agree that 10 tries isnt rly a big sample size, so the extrema can be even more volatile).

9. empiric researches measured an average human reaction time of 0,284 secs, which doesnt include searching the right button, doesnt include waiting for an animation to be recognized, doesnt include decision making, since the reasearch side "Human benschmark" only measured how long a human needs to click with his left mouse button on a screen that changes his colour. means the average  human reaction time ingame towards different possible animations is for sure higher (thats why you usually say a delay/casttime of 0,5 is the absolute minimum of what can be considered reactive ingame).

 

 

does a simple tell as terrorhuz proposed (which depending on those results would only add a tell for 0,266-0,466 secs on volatile ai delays on mirror images) be enough to make mirror images reactive counterplayable or not?   

or is the power lvl of a 2 clone utility in your opinion low enough (the dmg it provides, which easy can go up to 7-10+k with only pressing mi+f1) that it doesnt need to be reactive counterplayable?

 

I think i leave the interpretaion of those results and the answers of the 2 questions  to everyones owns personal taste/ pure subjective judgement/ maths. 

 

vid link with some examples of mirror images tests just for checking purposes:

 

Edited by JazzXman.7018
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3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

sry i dont get that post. what you write is lit the exact same than what i said in my post you quoted.

"you also have to substract the delay between the mesmer clicking mirror images and the clones actually rendering visible on screen"

I'm saying that this implies my measurements aren't directly comparable to yours since I measured from when the first Mind Wrack (Illusionary Persona) hit not when I pressed/clicked Mirror Images.

3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

ye because 2>1. so having 2 or 1clones on only one button is a difference, esp in the power lvl of that one button compared to a button only providing one clone. the need to click 2 bottons for 2 clones is not only a higher cd investment to get 2 clones, it also adds more player generated delay (depending on keybinds more or less, but sure a bit more in any case) by the need to click more buttons for the same amount of clones. you subjectively (depending on your personal taste) still dont see a difference here? also i didnt say that i have zero problem with clone gen skills not being blindable, i just said it have less of a problem with it. l2read.

Firstly,

(1.6/2)*3=2.4

1.0*2=2.0

2.4/2.0=1.20

The difference is only 20%. Or to put it another way, the damage a 1 clone shatter does isn't even 17% less than the damage of a 2 clone shatter.

Secondly, the cooldown is not automatically higher at all because you press 2 buttons. Dodge + Phase retreat is a lower investment than blowing your 35s cd stunbreak.

Thirdly, assuming a bad player who can't press their keybinds. For me, I just press side mouse button + e. Pretty kitten quick.

There is a difference but not one that tells me MI is some terrible balance issue completely separate from these other things, especially since the difference in damage is as low as 20%.

So you do in fact want sword 3, jaunt (traited), decoy, phase retreat, etc to be blindable? Make up your mind, and make up your mind if clone summons coming from your phantasms despawning should be blindable too.

3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i will answer the rest of your longer post later (another day) since i atm wanna more focus on the actual topic, which is the pro and cons of my suggestions from the pov of other players and not the bias you accuse me wrongfully of.

 

also our communication is heavily jammed and i also see very little sense in talking that much longer to someone who doesnt believe anyhting i say about myself no matter how much i swear about something that cant rly be proved by maths and no matter what arguments i come up with. there is no room for discussion with you then, when it is your permanent claim that no matter what arguments i have you only say you think im wrong (about myself).

 

all i can say is, that i would have never jumped into any of your threads the way you did it here. no matter how much i like or dislike you, i would have been more constructive and less accusing.  i dont ask for much. its just basic social competence. if i would join a thread of yours or answer to a post from you, i would not start with only: " your suggestions are mediocre and the only reasoning for my judgement i mention is: your suggestions are mediocre because you are biased toward core mesmer builds anyway". that is just a zero value post no one can brainstorm with, no one can constructive work with. it just comes along trashtalky and aggressive.

I don't have an issue with that, you are free to summarize your impressions of a post of mine with "some decent suggestions but overall mostly mediocre" (that's about what I said) if that's what you think.

3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you can be sure, that i expected a lot of disagreement when i post a doc with mostly nerfs in a class forum. if i woudl care abotu that, if i woudl bother i coudl just not post the doc here. simple logic

 

and as easy to check by upscrolling,, other ppl disagreed with me too, like terrohuz and i didnt feel offended by him or anyone else (the only one also crossed the line of just claiming without reasoning and argument/explanations to back up his opinions was phokus). so that proves by logic, that you disagreeing with me by itself wasnt my problem.

Don't know exactly what you are responding to here, maybe the quoting got messed up, but anyway yeah you were (are) incredibly offended that I summarized my impressions after reading the document because I did not have the time or wanted to spend the energy on responding in detail to every point.

3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

also you can be sure, that if i would care for specific persons to agree with me it would be terrorhuz way before you. so terrorhuz disagreeing with me would bother me in the first place not your disagreement. also that shows pretty obvious, that it is something else that triggers me about you (it is your still running destructive way to behave and fight, not your disagreement by its own). terrorhuz constructive disagreeing with adding reasoning/explanations made me not get offended by him even tho he also disagreed a lot. 

Not sure why you want certain people to agree with you, that seems like a bad mentality to have. Yes yes, I know that you were very offended by my impressions, we have been through this (what could it be, 5+ times by now?). 

3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

nerf dmg overall on more or less all classes by 30%

Why? The damage is lower than in PoF, lower than HoT, lower than core (possibly with a couple exceptions for the latter).

Edited by agrippastrilemma.8741
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