Updated balance suggestions for Mesmer for 4. Oct patch and after

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

im finally done with my little research about the ai delay. it was suggested from you terrorhuz, that ai (every single clone) has A MINIMUM of 0,5 secs delay in melee range even on instant commands. agripastrilemma even suggests that it is always around 0,77 secs (from the f1 click to all clones hitting the target).

I did not say that, thank you very much.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

if it would have rly been like that, then i would have agreed to your proposal to only add a tell but not a casttime to mirror images.  then the opponent has an effective reaction time for counterplay of 0,5 secs before he gets hit by the first clone. that would be the minimum delay i suggested in one post in this thread by giving it a 0,5 secs casttime. i would have been fine with that tell bc then mirror images would have had the minimum delay it needs to be reactive counterplayable. still not necessary an utility i would enjoy to use with my personal bias towarsds high skill ceiling (since for my taste it still makes playing mes too easy) but sure an improvement to current state that would be acceptable and sufficient in terms of counterplayability.

If somebody wants easy Mesmer utilities they should go for something like double stealth or even mantra of concentration, Mirror Images is not it - not only is it weak but offensive utilities are typically require "more skill" to get value out of than defensive ones.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

sadly my tests of the ai delay showed some other numbers (i add a vid link in the end so you can check if i maybe did something wrong during testing/measuring bc i rly wonder why they are so different to what was claimed. also agri should not use the dmg log in chat to measure since sometimes the dmg log has delays, better use the dmg numbers appearing on the target which sadly are missing in agris video).

Doesn't matter since I measured from the first damage log entry to the last damage log entry so assuming a delay the difference would still be the same.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

i tested with different skills like gs2-f1 and decoy-f1 and mirror images-f1 (measuring the delay now from the f1 Illusionary persona hit to the hit of the clones just like agri did in his vid, since seems like agri got bit confused why i first measured already from the mirror images click).

That's a hilarious claim, there was absolutely 0% confusion from my end.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

my sample: 10 tries with mirror images, 6 tries with gs2, 7 tries with decoy. i made sure i always had the same distance to the target (i repositioned to exact same position in the start of every try).

 

 

Results

 

1. The lowest delay from pressing f1/hitting IP from myself and the first clone hitting his own dmg on the target was 0,000 secs.     

   other very low delays happend were 0,066 and 0,03 and 0,166 and few times 0,200 and 0,266. means there is in most cases but not all cases a very volatile ai delay from shattered clones in melee range but its often far lower than the claimed 0,5-0,77 secs.

2. The highest delay i had on the second clone of mirror images was 0,7 secs what only happend one time in the 10 tries, all other        delays were lower

3. In average the delay of the first clone hitting from mirror images was 0,376 secs, while the minimum was 0,266 what happend more than one time in 10 tries. 

4. The second clone of mirror images hit in average 0,245 secs after the first clone.

5. My personal skill click delay between mirror images and f1 was usually between 0,133-0,166

6. while both clones from mirror images usually needed 0,200-0,233 secs for their models to render on my screen after clicking mirror images (unknown is, how much time the clones need to render on the opponents screen, since he prob has a bigger server delay/ ping towards the mesmers actions than the mesmer itself)

7. No.5 and 6 together mean: if the mesmer is not super slow with clicking f1 after mirror images then the clones are only rendered around 0,310 secs before the first clone hits avg (minus an unknown additional delay from opponents pov) while the clone models also then were visually overwritten by the pink shatter smokefield around the mesmer if the mesmer was near enough to the clones.

8. since other skills with clone generation produced a delay between 0,000 and 0,700 it can be, that a bigger sample with mirror images tries can even lead to a lower delay than 0,266 (what was the minimum in my 10 tries, @Terrorhuz.4695 i think we agree that 10 tries isnt rly a big sample size, so the extrema can be even more volatile).

9. empiric researches measured an average human reaction time of 0,284 secs, which doesnt include searching the right button, doesnt include waiting for an animation to be recognized, doesnt include decision making, since the reasearch side "Human benschmark" only measured how long a human needs to click with his left mouse button on a screen that changes his colour. means the average  human reaction time ingame towards different possible animations is for sure higher (thats why you usually say a delay/casttime of 0,5 is the absolute minimum of what can be considered reactive ingame).

 

 

does a simple tell as terrorhuz proposed (which depending on those results would only add a tell for 0,266-0,466 secs on volatile ai delays on mirror images) be enough to make mirror images reactive counterplayable or not?   

or is the power lvl of a 2 clone utility in your opinion low enough (the dmg it provides, which easy can go up to 7-10+k with only pressing mi+f1) that it doesnt need to be reactive counterplayable?

 

I think i leave the interpretaion of those results and the answers of the 2 questions  to everyones owns personal taste/ pure subjective judgement/ maths. 

 

vid link with some examples of mirror images tests just for checking purposes:

 

Quote

 

In average the delay of the first clone hitting from mirror images was 0,376 secs, while the minimum was 0,266 what happend more than one time in 10 tries. 

The second clone of mirror images hit in average 0,245 secs after the first clone.

if the mesmer is not super slow with clicking f1 after mirror images then the clones are only rendered around 0,310 secs before the first clone hits avg

 

This seems pretty reasonable to me.

Also we definitely also need to add a 0.5s cast time to Phase Retreat and Decoy, I can't react to it and it's only 16.7% lower damage than a Mirror Images shatter :(((

Edited September 24, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[otto.5684]

3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

sry i dont get that post. what you write is lit the exact same than what i said in my post you quoted.

 

ye because 2>1. so having 2 or 1clones on only one button is a difference, esp in the power lvl of that one button compared to a button only providing one clone. the need to click 2 bottons for 2 clones is not only a higher cd investment to get 2 clones, it also adds more player generated delay (depending on keybinds more or less, but sure a bit more in any case) by the need to click more buttons for the same amount of clones. you subjectively (depending on your personal taste) still dont see a difference here? also i didnt say that i have zero problem with clone gen skills not being blindable, i just said it have less of a problem with it. l2read.

 

i will answer the rest of your longer post later (another day) since i atm wanna more focus on the actual topic, which is the pro and cons of my suggestions from the pov of other players and not the bias you accuse me wrongfully of.

 

also our communication is heavily jammed and i also see very little sense in talking that much longer to someone who doesnt believe anyhting i say about myself no matter how much i swear about something that cant rly be proved by maths and no matter what arguments i come up with. there is no room for discussion with you then, when it is your permanent claim that no matter what arguments i have you only say you think im wrong (about myself).

 

all i can say is, that i would have never jumped into any of your threads the way you did it here. no matter how much i like or dislike you, i would have been more constructive and less accusing.  i dont ask for much. its just basic social competence. if i would join a thread of yours or answer to a post from you, i would not start with only: " your suggestions are mediocre and the only reasoning for my judgement i mention is: your suggestions are mediocre because you are biased toward core mesmer builds anyway". that is just a zero value post no one can brainstorm with, no one can constructive work with. it just comes along trashtalky and aggressive.

 

you can be sure, that i expected a lot of disagreement when i post a doc with mostly nerfs in a class forum. if i would care about that, if i would bother, i could just not post the doc here. simple logic.

 

and as easy to check by upscrolling,, other ppl disagreed with me too, like terrohuz and i didnt feel offended by him or anyone else (the only one also crossed the line of just claiming without reasoning and argument/explanations to back up his opinions was phokus). so that proves by logic, that you disagreeing with me by itself wasnt my problem.

 

also you can be sure, that if i would care for specific persons to agree with me it would be terrorhuz way before you. so terrorhuz disagreeing with me would bother me in the first place not your disagreement. also that shows pretty obvious, that it is something else that triggers me about you (it is your still running destructive way to behave and fight, not your disagreement by its own). terrorhuz constructive disagreeing with adding reasoning/explanations made me not get offended by him even tho he also disagreed a lot. 

 

yes that is true and i never claimed it to be something else than a doc that gives suggestions how to reach the "should be"-state of skill requirement, power lvl and fair balance imo. that is why i mentioned right in the start of the doc, that those suggestions are meant for a gamestate were other classes get nerfed to around the same power lvl as mesmer, so that mes is at least not totally trash compared to them. 

 

you were not 100% clear, would you agree to the suggestions in case other classes would be way weaker than their current state and also weaker than mes (lets imagine/assume all other classes already got nerfed down hard)? if not feel free to tell me which ones you think are in general bad and why. ofc no need to put in the effort but im intersted in constructive feedback (brainstorming).

if i get your goal right, is more to solve mesmers actual issues (you mean the issue that mes not being  meta since years i assume?) and that only depending on the current state of the game, than my doc ofc isnt rly intersting for you and you look for a suggestion doc with a different context/ mind set. 

 

if you ask me how to make mesmer viable in current gamestate than i sadly have no good ideas, since im not a fan of buffing underperforming stuff to be able to compete with the current broken, power creeped and low skill cap state the game imo has atm. i only can say that i think anet should not buff anything (also not mesmer) in current state and need to reduce the mobility power creep they added with eod (on all classes just not mesmer...) but also by reducing overall swiftness and superspeed uptime, nerf dmg overall on more or less all classes by 30% (not randomly but on specific overperfoming keyskills) while nerfing sustain even harder (maybe around 60%,) to prevent bunker meta (just random numbers to point out the ratio) while going for passive sustain/resustain first, then reduce active ones out of the too spamable/chainable amount.

but that isnt rly very detailed, only a general direction i would like the game to go.

Even though I am not agree with many of your suggestions, I do appreciate the effort you put. It is not constructive trying to discredit your effort. What I will do is represent what I think.

 

From spvp standpoint, ya, mesmer is currently the worst performing class. Chrono does not work at all. Core is one trick pony. Mirage is way over nerfed. Virtuoso has to struggle with a ton of issues. I think distortion will help virtuoso. Would be enough for sustain, I dunno. For mirage, return the second dodge and we are like 65% there.

 

PvE, I do not think mesmer is in a bad place. Both power and condi virtuoso have the damage and fun to play. Power virtuoso needs a sustain buff. I think giving one of the power traits 100-150 healing when a blade is stocked that should put power virtuoso sustain in a good place.

 

Mirage, has close to no issues. It parses high. It is bursty for condi build. It has the sustain. Has a decent support build. I have 2 things that I would like to change though. First, clones could factor in the ambushes damage, but they should not deal no damage. It is bad design to have AI capable to damage while you are invulnerable. It is way over compensated for in spvp, hence the nerfs. Nevertheless, it should change all actoss. The second is an issue beyond mesmer, confusion. Highly inconsistent in pve. It needs its base damage upped.

 

I would not comment on chrono. I always found it very clunky, even in its hay day. I started the game as main memser, few month before HoT, and chrono pushed me off mesmer. I did not start to play mesmer again till PoF. I think the power build is slightly better, but not enough.

 

I do not like the who is best/worst class comparison, cuz it varies dramatically by elite and build. The whole sale comparison does not work well. So my 2 cents, mesmer is currently better than warrior, ele. About the same level as guardian, rev and thief. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by otto.5684

[JazzXman.7018]

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"you also have to substract the delay between the mesmer clicking mirror images and the clones actually rendering visible on screen"

I'm saying that this implies my measurements aren't directly comparable to yours since I measured from when the first Mind Wrack (Illusionary Persona) hit not when I pressed/clicked Mirror Images.

yes and that was exactly what i did point out in the post you quoted. so you just wanted to say the same again? well  ok dont see the value but why not.

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Firstly,

(1.6/2)*3=2.4

1.0*2=2.0

2.4/2.0=1.20

The difference is only 20%.

sry what are you comparing there? i dont get what your maths is linked to. but even if it is only 20% difference (whatever difference to what) it is a difference. if the difference is enough to make a different balance needed is ofc a matter of opinion.

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Secondly, the cooldown is not automatically higher at all because you press 2 buttons. Dodge + Phase retreat is a lower investment than blowing your 35s cd stunbreak.

and yes ofc mi has a high cd because it also includes a stunbreak but the main purpose it usually used for is offensive. and even tho the skill cd from mi is higher than both other skills together you still blow 2 defensive cds which could get you out of jail in 2 different moments and not just one time. what is in my opinion not necessary a lower cd investment than only blowing one defensive cooldown offensive even tho it has an overall longer cooldown.  but ye as said, a matter of opinion how high you value those differences in the end.

 

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Thirdly, assuming a bad player who can't press their keybinds. For me, I just press side mouse button + e. Pretty kitten quick.

sure but its still less fast than clicking only one button, also not by much. and higher skill ceiling /the need to have good keybinds and reflexes is also a trade off.

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

So you do in fact want sword 3, jaunt (traited), decoy, phase retreat, etc to be blindable? Make up your mind, and make up your mind if clone summons coming from your phantasms despawning should be blindable too.

no as said its nothing that bugs me so much that i would mention it. but on mi it does bug me.

 

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I don't have an issue with that, you are free to summarize your impressions of a post of mine with "some decent suggestions but overall mostly mediocre" (that's about what I said) if that's what you think.

you dont get the point. the point is not the summorizing as mediocre. its also not the missing back up/reasoning/explanations behind that (in that case i would just have asked you about your reasoning behind your opinion, just as i did with phokus, without getting offended). the destructive, aggressive and narrowed way of arguing was, that your only reasoning in your first posts only was the claim that i am biased. what is just a useless generalisation (not even true on top) and not a constructive way of reasoning. in fact would have been better you wouldnt have added anythign except the short useless summary. like phokus did. until you find the time to actually come up with your arguments (which hopefully you have more than only: its mediocre bc you are biased). 

 

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Don't know exactly what you are responding to here, maybe the quoting got messed up, but anyway yeah you were (are) incredibly offended that I summarized my impressions after reading the document because I did not have the time or wanted to spend the energy on responding in detail to every point.

no there was no quote, i just try to explain why your claim that i got offended by the disagreement of you itself makes logically no sense.

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Not sure why you want certain people to agree with you, that seems like a bad mentality to have. Yes yes, I know that you were very offended by my impressions, we have been through this (what could it be, 5+ times by now?). 

dunno why you missunderstand my writing so hard. is that on purpose? since i rly doubt my english was so bad here. i just said, that in case (which isnt the case) i would care about certain ppl disagreements by itself, than there are a lot of ppl i would care more about than yours. terrorhuz would be one of the person, you would not be one of those. but since he also disagreed with me a lot during i didnt get offended by his disagreements that should logically telling you,c that it is not the disagreement itself that makes me trigger over you since days now. come on, that cant be so hard to understand...

 

you refuse to follow the logic for around 5 times now yes.  you are so sure you know about me while you know nothing. that is such arrogant self-aggradisement. you assume against presented logic and against presented arguments about what rly triggered me. as said when you rly dont want to believe anything i say, when you always come with the "you just dont know yourself claim" than there is no room for constructive communication. you dont give me any little might in the discussion. you know, you know me better than i do. so you dont believe anyhting i say. like what????  i mean you are free to act like that but dont wonder when that triggers ppl and dont act as if that is fair behavior.

 

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Why? The damage is lower than in PoF, lower than HoT, lower than core (possibly with a couple exceptions for the latter).

do you have any official datas proving that claim? not that it matters for my argument tho, since i do not compared to core days i compare to the should be state i have in mind. and the % numbers were just random to point out the ratio, means that i would ofc nerf sustain way more than the dmg all over the board.

Edited September 24, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I did not say that, thank you very much.

Quote

MI isn't really even instant in practice, here is a video where I use it in point-blank range against a golem, it took about 0.75s from the first (Illusionary Persona) hit to the last hit of the Mind Wrack. If the clones have to walk it can of course take even longer.

you post a one sample vid that provides a higher delay number clearly above every single try i did (my max was 0,7 secs to the second clone hitting).. you also do not fail to mention, that the delay ofc can be way higher in case clones have to move. while you (ofc just by accident) forgot to mention how much lower the delay can be (esp on the first clone but also for both clones). 

 

 

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

If somebody wants easy Mesmer utilities they should go for something like double stealth or even mantra of concentration, Mirror Images is not it - not only is it weak but offensive utilities are typically require "more skill" to get value out of than defensive ones.

pretty generalizing again so not rly valueable arguments. but i agree that double stealth is also low iq. mantra of conc yes doesnt rly add skill ceiling either. calling mi weak is a little lol but ok we are in pure taste department again. mi is also defensive the detarget by itself already a pretty stupid/unhealthy mechanic. +stunbreak. means the value to use that offensive, even tho it has such strong defensive abilities, is so high that ppl mostly use it offensive.  and sry but not rly counterplayable dmg (esp in combination with f1 up to more than 10k easy) is a low effort offensive and not skill intense but we ofc can also just disagree here. i dont mind. i get bored using that pretty fast since it makes mesmer way easier to play than with either mantra of distraction, portal, or illusion of life. stuff that i use in builds i built to provide  max possible skill ceiling.

 

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Doesn't matter since I measured from the first damage log entry to the last damage log entry so assuming a delay the difference would still be the same.

no that is what i meant: the chat is not permanently lagging in the same way. i actually dont know what example in my vid but you can see in one of the 4 examples that the chat log delayed for the first ip hit but not for the 2 clones anymore. so i would in any case use the dmg numbers on target instead chat log to be save. also no clue why you recorded the vid without the dmg numbers... (how is that even possible btw?)

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

That's a hilarious claim, there was absolutely 0% confusion from my end.

you obviously were confused (or more exact didnt understand my post) since you still dont understand that your post lit is saying the exact same than my post you quoted  

and even if you rly were not confused by anything: i dont believe you, and i look from the outside, so when i say you were confused than you were confused. i know you better than you know yourself! at least that is my opinion and you cant do anything against it! (isnt that fun when ppl interact like that with you? look in the mirror baby)

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Also we definitely also need to add a 0.5s cast time to Phase Retreat and Decoy, I can't react to it and it's only 16.7% lower damage than a Mirror Images shatter :(((

decoy has a casttime also pretty short one  but it interrupts castskills and it is only one clone not 2. for me a pretty big difference to mi. there is a reason ppl never, lit never!, use decoy offensive while they do use mi mostly offensive. staff 2 is a bug as far as i know, it is not supposed to work the way that the mesmer is still in range to hit ip together with the clone. also i kinda like the interaction. its not rly fair for the opponent true (and they prob should fix that) but here i would count in the higher skill ceiling and class knowledge you need to have to utilize staff 2 for a double mind wrack hit with ip. de they could think abotu delaying the clone production a bit more towards the end of the dodge roll. i would not rage about that, aslo here i count in the higher skill ceiling (in terms of harder decision making in dodge management) de provides as compensation. self deception trait in current from (the clone gen part) needs to go imo. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, otto.5684 said:

Even though I am not agree with many of your suggestions, I do appreciate the effort you put. It is not constructive trying to discredit your effort. What I will do is represent what I think.

 

From spvp standpoint, ya, mesmer is currently the worst performing class. Chrono does not work at all. Core is one trick pony. Mirage is way over nerfed. Virtuoso has to struggle with a ton of issues. I think distortion will help virtuoso. Would be enough for sustain, I dunno. For mirage, return the second dodge and we are like 65% there.

 

PvE, I do not think mesmer is in a bad place. Both power and condi virtuoso have the damage and fun to play. Power virtuoso needs a sustain buff. I think giving one of the power traits 100-150 healing when a blade is stocked that should put power virtuoso sustain in a good place.

 

Mirage, has close to no issues. It parses high. It is bursty for condi build. It has the sustain. Has a decent support build. I have 2 things that I would like to change though. First, clones could factor in the ambushes damage, but they should not deal no damage. It is bad design to have AI capable to damage while you are invulnerable. It is way over compensated for in spvp, hence the nerfs. Nevertheless, it should change all actoss. The second is an issue beyond mesmer, confusion. Highly inconsistent in pve. It needs its base damage upped.

 

I would not comment on chrono. I always found it very clunky, even in its hay day. I started the game as main memser, few month before HoT, and chrono pushed me off mesmer. I did not start to play mesmer again till PoF. I think the power build is slightly better, but not enough.

thanks a lot for your appreciation of the effort ❤️ and dw you never gave me the feeling of accusing me to try to do something mean and narrowdly biased to mesmer. you disagreeing is totaly fine for me.

 

i dont rly know much about the pve meta sry. i guess you are right with what you say. for pvp it seems kinda accurate. also i dont like they will give virtu distort.

1 hour ago, otto.5684 said:

 

I do not like the who is best/worst class comparison, cuz it varies dramatically by elite and build. The whole sale comparison does not work well. So my 2 cents, mesmer is currently better than warrior, ele. About the same level as guardian, rev and thief. 

 

yes indeed. ofc you need to differ between builds not just classes or specs of a class. 👍thats what i think too also i didnt explicit mention it

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

yes and that was exactly what i did point out in the post you quoted. so you just wanted to say the same again? well  ok dont see the value but why not.

I'm assuming you mean this part: "since i was measuring the delay from the button click on mirropr images (not even from f1 what is even a smaller delay since there is some personal button spam delay in case you are not using a macro)"

Your bad English which makes it hard to understand aside, you are referring to clicking/pressing the Mind Wrack (F1) button here (at least that is what your text says), which is not the same as when the damage packet from Illusionary Persona actually hits, which is what I measured from.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

sry what are you comparing there? i dont get what your maths is linked to. but even if it is only 20% difference (whatever difference to what) it is a difference. if the difference is enough to make a different balance needed is ofc a matter of opinion.

Apologies - I assumed you, as an experienced Mesmer main, would understand immediately, but I will clarify.

Mind Wrack:
1 Illusion: 1.0
2 Illusions: 1.6
3 Illusions: 2.1

Damage per clone for 1-clone shatter = 1.0/1 = 1.0
Damage per clone for a 1-clone shatter 1.6/2 = 0.8
Total damage for 1-clone shatter = 1.0*2 (incl. Illusionary Persona) = 2.0
Total damage for 2-clone shatter = 0.8*3 (incl. Illusionary Persona) = 2.4
Percent more damage a 2-clone shatter does than a 1-clone shatter = 2.4/2.0 = 1.2 = 20% more damage
Percent less damage a 1-clone shatter does than a 2-clone shatter = 1-2.0/2.4 = 0.166666... =16.7% less damage

Apparently 1-clone shatters inflicting 16.7% less damage than 2-clone shatters means we need to treat them like they are universes apart, including even making skills that summon 2 clones blindable.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

and yes ofc mi has a high cd because it also includes a stunbreak but the main purpose it usually used for is offensive. and even tho the skill cd from mi is higher than both other skills together you still blow 2 defensive cds which could get you out of jail in 2 different moments and not just one time. what is in my opinion not necessary a lower cd investment than only blowing one defensive cooldown offensive even tho it has an overall longer cooldown.  but ye as said, a matter of opinion how high you value those differences in the end.

The cd investment is objectively higher as measured in seconds, and on a personal level blowing your utility slot for 35 seconds is a huge investment, certainly bigger than a dodge and skill #2.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

sure but its still less fast than clicking only one button, also not by much. and higher skill ceiling /the need to have good keybinds and reflexes is also a trade off.

Nothing to do with reflexes or skill ceiling. Having good keybinds is not a trade-off.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

no as said its nothing that bugs me so much that i would mention it. but on mi it does bug me.

It's incredibly inconsistent and a bad idea, the entire class works a certain way (clone summoning skills that do not need to hit a target are not blindable) and you wish to change this for one and only one skill. And for someone who seems to like to think of themselves as objective I must appreciate the argument of "it does bug me".

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

you dont get the point. the point is not the summorizing as mediocre. its also not the missing back up/reasoning/explanations behind that (in that case i would just have asked you about your reasoning behind your opinion, just as i did with phokus, without getting offended).

the destructive, aggressive and narrowed way of arguing was, that your only reasoning in your first posts only was the claim that i am biased. what is just a useless generalisation (not even true on top) and not a constructive way of reasoning. in fact would have been better you wouldnt have added anythign except the short useless summary. like phokus did. until you find the time to actually come up with your arguments (which hopefully you have more than only: its mediocre bc you are biased). 

Of course you are not offended by the concept of a summary itself, that would be ludicrous. You obviously would not have been offended if I had summarized your document as "Wow, this was amazing, I agree with everything Jazz!".

What you are trying to essentially say here is that "I'm not offended because of your summary but because you called me biased", but what you are forgetting is that me calling you biased is part of my summary of my impressions. I read the text and thought "kitten, these aren't well-developed suggestions that I can agree with, and on top of it they regrettably seem biased as a whole in the direction JazzXman tends to be biased based on what I have previously seen from her".

Also, It's not mediocre because you are biased, It's mediocre and you are biased.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

no there was no quote, i just try to explain why your claim that i got offended by the disagreement of you itself makes logically no sense.

See above.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

dunno why you missunderstand my writing so hard. is that on purpose? since i rly doubt my english was so bad here. i just said, that in case (which isnt the case) i would care about certain ppl disagreements by itself, than there are a lot of ppl i would care more about than yours. terrorhuz would be one of the person, you would not be one of those. but since he also disagreed with me a lot during i didnt get offended by his disagreements that should logically telling you,c that it is not the disagreement itself that makes me trigger over you since days now. come on, that cant be so hard to understand...

"i just said, that in case i would care about certain ppl disagreements by itself, than there are a lot of ppl i would care more about than yours."

From this we can infer that you value certain people agreeing with you more than others. And If I say "I don't care about people agreeing with me but If I did, I would care more about Boyce agreeing with me than Helseth" then I am conceding that I am placing a certain value in Boyce agreeing with me. If the value of any person agreeing with you was zero, then one person couldn't be more valuable than another (because they would both be zero).

I think you have attachment to being respected (as in the sense of "admired" or "looked up to" which makes sense because you typically are on the Mesmer forums) and to not be perceived as biased, so of course my comment struck a chord.

All of this is pretty irrelevant though.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

you refuse to follow the logic for around 5 times now yes.  you are so sure you know about me while you know nothing. that is such arrogant self-aggradisement. you assume against presented logic and against presented arguments about what rly triggered me.

I know what you have previously written/said and my impressions of that as a totality. You doubtlessly have various impressions about my character as well that would not fit into my real-life self-image - that's okay.

See above for discussion about what "triggered" you (I haven't used that word, but you do keep referring to yourself as triggered so I suppose you are, seems possibly indicative of some hopefully minor underlying psychological issue or insecurity).

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

as said when you rly dont want to believe anything i say, when you always come with the "you just dont know yourself claim" than there is no room for constructive communication.

We have had a fair bit of constructive communication I think, you actually seem more inclined to respond to me in detail than to the other people who are "more constructive" than me despite saying that you wouldn't respond anymore multiple times, so my approach seems to work well.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

you dont give me any little might in the discussion. you know, you know me better than i do. so you dont believe anyhting i say. like what????  i mean you are free to act like that but dont wonder when that triggers ppl and dont act as if that is fair behavior.

On 9/24/2022 at 4:55 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

do you have any official datas proving that claim? not that it matters for my argument tho, since i do not compared to core days i compare to the should be state i have in mind. and the % numbers were just random to point out the ratio, means that i would ofc nerf sustain way more than the dmg all over the board.

I can't believe you are actually trying to challenge that. Game updates/February 2020 - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Take Blurred Frenzy, which has a 1.024 coefficient down from 2.4 or Spatial Surge which is down to 0.669 from 0.945 or Mind Wrack which is down to 1.0 for 1 clone from 1.15, and Grav Well which is down to 0 dmg.

Not to mention traits, for ex Mental Torment was just 20% flat with no requirement of "if the opponent is not using a skill" like Mental Anguish, halting strike/power block used to crit, etc. Of course this extends to other classes; Grenade Barrage is 1.8 coeff down from 3.0, Arcing Slice is down to 1.82 from 1.98, Bulls's Charge is down to 0 dmg, almost all autos are down by a significant amount, the first strike of thief dagger 1 damage is down 50% from HoT.

"the % numbers were just random to point out the ratio, means that i would ofc nerf sustain way more than the dmg all over the board."

Why? Not necessarily disagreeing, just wondering.

Have you considered advocating for an increased health pool as an alternative?

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

you post a one sample vid that provides a higher delay number clearly above every single try i did (my max was 0,7 secs to the second clone hitting).. you also do not fail to mention, that the delay ofc can be way higher in case clones have to move. while you (ofc just by accident) forgot to mention how much lower the delay can be (esp on the first clone but also for both clones). 

What I set out to prove is that that Mirror Images -> Shatter isn't instant in practice, which I did successfully by recording a video that shows how there is a delay on Mirror Images -> Shatter. I did not set out to determine the exact average delay (In that case I would have most likely made a script to press the buttons perfectly consistently, as well as recorded in higher than 60 fps in order to reduce the variance that comes from frame timings i.e. about 16ms). I will add a new video at the end of this post which brings this issue out of the theoretical realm and into the practical.

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

pretty generalizing again so not rly valueable arguments. but i agree that double stealth is also low iq. mantra of conc yes doesnt rly add skill ceiling either.

Sorry I actually meant to say Mantra of Resolve.

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

calling mi weak is a little lol but ok we are in pure taste department again.

No it absolutely is weak in pretty much all cases and that's not really about taste. There is a reason why no good Mesmer build really runs it.

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

mi is also defensive the detarget by itself already a pretty stupid/unhealthy mechanic. +stunbreak. means the value to use that offensive, even tho it has such strong defensive abilities, is so high that ppl mostly use it offensive.  and sry but not rly counterplayable dmg (esp in combination with f1 up to more than 10k easy) is a low effort offensive and not skill intense but we ofc can also just disagree here. i dont mind. i get bored using that pretty fast since it makes mesmer way easier to play than with either mantra of distraction, portal, or illusion of life. stuff that i use in builds i built to provide  max possible skill ceiling.

A stunbreak with no other effects (stealth, blind etc) is typicall pretty low especially on Mesmer because you have multiple ways to "get out of" cc anyway (diversion, distortion, jaunt, phase retreat, mirage dodge etc). That said the fact that the utility is both defensive and offensive increases its skill cap because you have to make the decision on how to use it (similarly for Illusionary ambush by the way). For a Mind Wrack damage combo? For a quick 2-clone Distortion? Save for the stunbreak or the detarget? And so on. This makes it more multifaceted, more options -> more skilled, generally.

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

no that is what i meant: the chat is not permanently lagging in the same way. i actually dont know what example in my vid but you can see in one of the 4 examples that the chat log delayed for the first ip hit but not for the 2 clones anymore. so i would in any case use the dmg numbers on target instead chat log to be save. also no clue why you recorded the vid without the dmg numbers... (how is that even possible btw?)

I have checked quite a few times now and the log doesn't seem to lag for me more than 1 frame on a 60 fps video. Anyway, you also look at when the golem health % goes down in my video if you prefer and the delay comes out at pretty much the same.

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

you obviously were confused (or more exact didnt understand my post) since you still dont understand that your post lit is saying the exact same than my post you quoted  

No, I was not "confused why [you] first measured already from the mirror images click". Also, see discussion above.

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

and even if you rly were not confused by anything: i dont believe you, and i look from the outside, so when i say you were confused than you were confused. i know you better than you know yourself! at least that is my opinion and you cant do anything against it! (isnt that fun when ppl interact like that with you? look in the mirror baby)

You see, the difference between us is that I don't mind whatever impressions you wish to have of me (or in this case, pretend to have of me).

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

decoy has a casttime also pretty short one  but it interrupts castskills and it is only one clone not 2.

It interrupts skills but does not have a cast time. The clone comes out as quick as with Mirror Images by my measurements.

Of course it only summons one clone, that was the entire point, I told you that Phase Retreat or Decoy (which both summon only one clone) into shatter only does 16.7% less damage than Mirror Images into shatter - which isn't exactly universes apart in my mind (comparable to running with vs without Mental Anguish trait).

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

for me a pretty big difference to mi.

"Pretty big" meaning 16.7% lower damage to be specific (at the cost of not getting a 3 second stealth by the way).

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

there is a reason ppl never, lit never!, use decoy offensive while they do use mi mostly offensive.

Yeah, it's because that would reveal you instantly, nullifying the point of using Decoy. Though it isn't true that people never use Decoy offensively, I saw Shorts use it that way inside of Continuum Split a few streams ago for instance.

On 9/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

staff 2 is a bug as far as i know, it is not supposed to work the way that the mesmer is still in range to hit ip together with the clone. also i kinda like the interaction. its not rly fair for the opponent true (and they prob should fix that) but here i would count in the higher skill ceiling and class knowledge you need to have to utilize staff 2 for a double mind wrack hit with ip. de they could think abotu delaying the clone production a bit more towards the end of the dodge roll. i would not rage about that, aslo here i count in the higher skill ceiling (in terms of harder decision making in dodge management) de provides as compensation. self deception trait in current from (the clone gen part) needs to go imo. 

Now you are at least trying to be more consistent in advocating for delayed (non-instant) clone generation across the board - I don't agree with it but you can hold that opinion if you want.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, I made a video with two clients up where I attempt to dodge Mirror Images -> Shatter in melee range in the client to the right. I did this by using a macro that sent the commands to the client to the left. In order to ensure I was actually actively reacting; I added a random delay after I activated the macro and before the actual attack would commence. I also covered up the left client window so as to be sure I only reacted to what was visible on the right client window. For the waiting duration between using Mirror Images and using Mind Wrack I tried both 50ms and 10ms which is faster than human speeds.

The result was that I managed to dodge it many times in succession without much difficulty.

Edited September 25, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Levetty.1279]

On 9/24/2022 at 3:30 AM, otto.5684 said:

It is bursty for condi build.

What?

[JazzXman.7018]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yeah you have said it multiple times, I just think that you are wrong. It is very easy to make/play your favorite build and claim "this is the most skilled build in the game". As a specific example of you not understanding what is skilled or not, you claimed that Illusionary Ambush has a low skill cap, which is just wrong, it is actually one of higher skill cap utilities in this game.

yes it is indeed easy to fall in that trap to play a build you personally by your pure subjective taste enjoy a lot (because you like the flow of the class/build, its theme/class identity or the mechanics or the colour of the skillbar or whatever) and then try to call it skillful since no one like to admit that he is just a carried by build dude. you see that behavior everywhere when looking at gamer kids. and it is easy to accuse everyone to be like that, even tho we are not all like that. but sadly you cant rly prove that it is not the case in your own case. i cant slice my head so you can look into it. if it just would be so easy... (*dreaming)

 

but i told you, im aware of that trap. thats why i pay extra attention to  me not falling into that trap. also my mindset makes it easier to avoid the trap, since im personally rly more interested in being really challenged, when stuff feels too easy to play for me, then i get bored pretty fast. its hard to lie to myself about how hard the build is im playing with that mindset (ofc some lack of skill still can warp that impression).

 

 

after the build craft (which i already do on purpose to find the most challenging build since that is what drives me, that is my main goal, even more its my only goal in the build craft) i then check that by my personal ingame experiences, the praxis test so to say (what feels easy to play and less reeactive/ interactive and fair) and what doesnt (what ofc isnt rly a prove just an indicator). and my basis to do so is gameknowledge, knowledge of balance logics/basic balance rules etc by informing myself, empiric researches, testing, logical deductions etc. or short: by trying to built opinions which are as reasonable, grounded in reality/truth, profound as possible.

 

so i do a lot of effort actually to not be one of those gamers first picking what they personally enjoy the most by pure personal taste (or what they by personal skill deficits are only able to play, you know the guys who think inspi/chaos bunker mes is skillful to play) and then as step 2 try to convice ppl that their build is skillful.

 

also i did tell you that the progress to find the specific mirage de/ih build started with theoriecrafting a build which i think is the maximum skilled/challenging to play. that by default keeps any subjective emotions over the build like fun, having a habit to play it etc out of the maths. the build was before i even played it already in the theoriecraft made to be the highest skill ceiling build. 

since those are the builds i know i ususally have the most fun with.

 

means i checked the skill ceiling of that build on different lvls, to be sure my results are as less as possible warped by simple matter of taste things or a correlation with a lack of personal skill (since of course the worse you are at the game, or the least a playstyle/mechanic fits to your own playstyle the harder even easy builds feel to play for you). thast why i double check with balance logic and ingame experiences.

 

ofc you can go the easy way again and say that you just dont believe me. nothing i can do vs that killer argument/ thought terminating cliche (seems to be close to what i mean if i understand the english correct there, thx for the link) 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"hitting my own build i already voted for" I don't understand what this means.

You say that mantra has been overnerfed since they removed the F3 cooldown decrease and want it to be buffed: "Also they got overnerfed in cd since the count recharge is currently too high when mes cant reset both dazes with the old 12 secs active mantra recharge anymore." "Atm daze mantra cd (and other mantras also check fb mantras) is bit overnerfed, 18 secs count recharge should be something to consider."

i meant that the nerf parts i suggest (like less direct dmg on mesmers own ambushes so that utilities are the main purpose/ main reward you will use the ambushes for, just as deleting dmg from clone ambushes completely, just as adding a higher cd between the 2 mantra charges) i did suggest already when mirage still had 2 dodges and before the mantra recharge got deleted. what logically means: i dont use them as compensation for buffs i wanna have.

 

the buffs i suggest only were added to the doc because of bad nerfs happend in between (one dodge nerf, mantra rework). again: my doc before the dodge deletion or the mantra rework would still incl those nerfs even if mirage never lost its dodges and even if mantras never were reworked.  that i just wanna compensate the buffs for my own build by nerfing all other builds even more is a negative interpretation and doesnt make sense logically. and devalues my suggestion in an unfair and destructive way by a wrong claim. 

 

and this is exatcly one point that triggers me about you: you have a habit into my direction to interpret everything the most negative way possible. why? it feels the answer is, because you simply dont like me and want to see me in a negative way. i mean that is fine for me and i would not care about that, if it wouldnt prevent discussing constructive. since i want a contructive discussion (brainstorming pros and YES ALSO CONS) over my suggestions and all im asking you for is, to keep that subjective negativity out of the discussion. that cant be too much to ask for. the way you jumped into the thread was useless and destructive and its rly unnecessary to act like that. but yes i guess next time i just ignore your posts and the negativity inbetween the lines until you come up with something contructive.  only react to your wellfounded arguments and not the subjective claims that i cant prove wrong by math anyway. it feels you have a strong wish of interpreting me negative and it is super exhauting and prevents to hold up a constructive discussion with you. 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You pretty much do actually.

as just explained i dont, it was just your wrong interpretation that my nerf suggestions to my own build are related to the buffs i suggest before or after.  

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I didn't misinterpret you, I directly quoted and challenged you about chrono having too much shatter damage without proper counterplay, after which you finally essentially agreed that it was wrong/incomplete to specifically go after chrono when core and Mirage have higher instant shatter damage.

again you mix up different arguments at different points. the fact that i said i would just delete the second split hit on chrono f1 (which isnt the instant part) should tell you by logic that my wish to nerf chrono dmg (esp when getting distortion back) was at that point not related to the instant nature. it was related to the fact that chrono has in general too much dmg (also on shatters) imo. the dmg is so high bc it needs to compensate for the too low amount of active defense what prevents chrono to stay in reactive fights. so giving distortion back will add the ability to play more interactive with opponents instead just oneshotting. means chrono can also get a lower and with that more reactive amount of burst dmg just as overall less hit spam (since also the spam makes it less reactive not only the instant part of the shatters) when getting distortion back. i also said it makes sense that chrono has a lower amount of (instant) shatter dmg, since chrono has way shorter cds on shatters due to alac and cs. and i never took that back.

 

also my post you quoted in your first comment in this thread included already what i said after: that the instant shatter dmg can be too high on chrono and ALL power mes builds due to dmg multiplier stacking.  the only reason i mentioned chrono explicit as spec was bc it has different shatters than core and also way lower cd on shatters than mirage or core, so chrono needs by default a lower instant shatter dmg (a lower shatter dmg in general and doesnt need a compensation for that by adding a second split hit which only increases zone denail spam and hit spam). 

 

it always feels like you read what you want to read and not what i actually say. as if you tryhard to missinterpret my stuff so you can prove me wrong and can keep your negative impression of me up no matter what. its just annoying to talk to someone who deals so unfair and negative with me all the time. ofc parts of our missunderstandings also might be language barrier but i heavily doubt its only my bad english causing that. but you are clearly negative biased towards me and that is an impression that is not wraped by following a spurious correlation its very obvious inbetween the lines of your behavior when interacting with me. 

 

NOW THE IMPORTANT PART that might help us in the future to avoid such disputes and missunderstandings, so kindly asking/beggin you: maybe you can in the future ask me more open minded how i meant stuff before you start claiming that anything proves my bias (with a satisfied GOTCHA in between the lines because you think now you catched my bias in the act). all im asking for and i think its just basic social competence at this point: is that you come along more open minded in my direction and less accusing/claiming. leave your personal opinion about me more out of the discussion and keep it more constructive next time. maybe give me a bit more credit for stuff i tell you about myself, instead by default not believing any word coming out of my mouth.

i dont mean agree to me and i dont mind when you think my sugestions are bad or mediocre and when you tell me that in a respectful pma way that leaves room for discussion.. my problem with you is about how you behave and not about what you think about my suggestions. 

 

here in this thread are at least 10 ppl disagreeing with me, one (phokus right on page one) even just as useless summorized as you did, by only saying the suggestions are bad, without any further explanations which suggestions he think are bad and why he thinks that. did i get triggered at him or anyone else for simply disagreeing or simply summorizing them as bad? no. 

means why the hell you think your pure disagreement and you summorizing my suggestions as mostly mediocre was the reason i got triggered when other ppl did the same and i wasnt triggered?

 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Hilarious. Of course it isn't objective. Even if I decide to go through and respond to your doc in detail point-by-point it would still not be objective. None of our suggestions are, by definition.

Dude, balance is not a matter of pure taste. there is ofc some subjectivity onto it but as most topics in the world they are inbetween the extrema of being a pure matter of taste (the topic "do you like rain?" is pure subjective) and being pure objective (rain is wet, 2+2=4). 

 

the moment a topic isnt a pure matter of taste you can built your opinions in very different ways. more well profounded,  based on reality, logic and facts (science based) while on purpose doing a lot of effort to keep your personal feelings and preferences out of it or you can have an opinion that is only grounded in subjective feelings/ taste just off the top of your head.

 

ofc also the first more science based way doesnt mean you are always right and never miss something what then leads to a wrong conclusion. but it sure means the wrong conclusion or the wrong opinion is not wrong because of some subjective taste/ bias towards the topic. so if you jump into the thread not doing more than making a pure summary without any other reasoning added than my bias, then you lit  suggests that my suggestions ONLY are bad bc of and my opinions about balance wrong ONLY BECAUSE of the bias. what is a pretty unfair shortsighted low effort argument to devalue my suggestions and any work of research, gameknowledge etc that i put into it. if you didnt mean it liek that, then give more attention to the way you say stuff. 

 

so in future better start jumping into my thread when you have the time to be constructive or at least keep any reasoning out and say you will explain your opinion later. the way you did it makes it look like as if calling me biased proves for you already, that my suggestions are bad just because of that bias.. this happening in the context of how overly negative you react to all stuff i say (also in the past in other threads) is indeed triggereing bc it make the whole discussion insanely unfun and exhausting and destructitive.

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I have my analysis and impressions of the way you write and communicate, from which I have drawn the conclusion that you do have a bias in a certain direction and that this contributes to some/many of your suggestions and ideas about the game being somewhat misguided. The reason(s) why you don't agree with me on this (it should be noted that this is expected, people obviously rarely know/admit their own biases) is not relevant in the least.

well see all above i guess.

 

again you prove your claim of me being biased with a not profounded generalization that i ofc am not able to see my own bias (thought determining cliche strikes again). as if there doesnt something excist called self reflection. self-reflection is a good tool to work against implicid bias. you doesnt seem to know about that tool. so i slowly develop the impression that self-reflection doesnt exist for you. at least, you are not able to reflect yourself, so you assume no one else is able to either. that is also expected since its a common error in reasoning to judge others by your own standards.. and happens even easier when you have a strong subjective wish to make someone look bad or narrowed or biased and also like to happens easy with ppl who are in general narrow minded and/or not the smartest on the planet (just generally talking without judging if that fits to you or not).

 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Again, there is no truth/reality to find here, all of our suggestions are necessarily subjective and also won't be heard by Anet and thus will not change the game whatsoever. The only reason to post on the forums is to pointlessly argue.

In other words: it is my personal impression. How crazy.

that is maybe your only reason to post on forum, but my reason for this thread was a constructive discussion, the brainstorming, which has value for me personally even in case devs do not read it. since i have a personal interest in improving my gameknowledge and game-understanding and constructive criticism is for that even more helpful than full agreeing with me and simple applaus. but i guess here we are again: you judging me depending on your own lower standards. 

 

to the point that the balance topic is sure not a matter of pure subjectivity i said already enough.

 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You are welcome to, if you wish.

your missing self reflection hits again xD

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

First of all I have played more Mirage (mostly power IH by the way) and Core (and Virtuoso recently) than Chronomancer. Second of all I typically do better on Mirage/Virtuoso than Chronomancer, so Chrono most certainly isn't carrying me. Third of all I like Focus over Pistol and in fact I do not play most of the skills etc we have been talking about, such as Illusionary Ambush and Mirror Images. Why? Because Mirror Images sucks.

There you go, claims disproven, QED.

lol those claims were not meant serious, i just tried to make you look in the mirror by faking a situation where you say "buff core or chrono in this or that way because ..." and all i would write when jumping in would be: "your suggestions are mediocre because they are infected by your narrowed bias towards core/chrono." end of reasoning.  if you dont care when ppl try to devalue your work by low effort claims, then good for you. i personally always get triggered by unconstructivity and unfair fight tactics alla debate club politician kitten and when ppl just dont care for truth and are only interested to keep their opinion up no matter what. 

 

i have played all specs (except virtu since its still very new) for a very long time very often (core and chrono even the most since they are the oldest specs) and all with different builds and i play all specs on equall skill lvl and could until now compete with all of them equally good.. i cant name one im remarkable worse at (ofc virtu is obviously way easier to play by its basic spec design so i do already well on it with way less playtime). i also play condi on all specs (while my condi mes is in tendency weaker than my power mes over all builds except the power block hybrid build on mirage, since i dont play it as much bc i get bored by their easyness too fast). i have no need at all for any bias towards any build or spec. the moment i would find a build on chrono/core/virtu or mirage that is more challenging for me, i would just stop playing that specific mirage build and go for the other build instead when i want max skill challenge. 

 

i also play builds which use mirror images (pre eod a build that could compete on top lvl, and its very common, for sure an equally valueable pick to the alternatives, on power chrono builds). i dont judge those skills without even playing them seriously (means also vs top player).

 

also most differences in skill ceiling are obvious and can be detected by having basic balances rules in mind and following balance logic (while ofc you always can miss certain aspects of the game, since the game is very complicated and detailed in mechanics or you do something wrong during testing etc. thats why constructive discussion/brainstorming with other ppl over my suggestions is always valuable for me in terms of personal development/improvement of gameknowledge/understanding and the personal flexible open minded thinking). for example that the invulnspam on inspi signets trait is unhealthy and low iq skill ceiling is kinda obvious and outside of the ppl who rly need to be carried by that no one rly would disagree. other differences in skill ceiling  are less obvious and more a matter of how much you value differences . yes as already said by me. never claimed something else. another reason why i value posting my doc on the forum to get constructive criticism to brainstorm and argue about. 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Nope, I did not edit that part about stubbornness in after the fact. Stop making up false claims.

you did, the first time i did read your post the part in () that stubborness is not necessary something bad wasnt there. it was there  later when i finally found the time to answer and quote it but it wasnt there right after you posted (before editing it the first time). 

 

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

First of all, nerfing Mirror Images (which is what we were talking about here) wouldn't bring down power creep:

1. Mirror Images has existed in the game since the start in 2012, back when shatters by the way did more damage than now. That is not power creep.

were did i say mirror images is a part of power creep? i never did. i only talk in general about reducing power creep as my overall goal that doesnt mean that every single suggestion is made to redcue power creep. some suggestions are just there to make mesmer more interactive/ reactive and better balanced imo. that somethign excist since core doesnt prove its good. it can just mean its unbalanced and non interactive since core days. 

 

but if you wanna talk about the question if mirror images is power creeped than yes mechancially it is. since they added previously mirage exclusive retargeting to it. what was never needed and should be deleted anyway.

 

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

So you think that nothing will ever be nerfed unless I, Agrippastrilemma, "define where I want go with my balance ideas"? Very interesting that you think I, or anyone on here for that matter, has any power whatsoever over game balance. Also, I have made numerous posts about bugs/QoL/balance in the past, not least for Virtuoso during the beta, which of course made exactly zero difference, most of the bugs I reported have not even been touched.

hm?  what did this have anything to do with you?

i just  explained why i made suggestions which nerf mesmer even more even tho its not meta and doesnt overperform atm compared to other classes/builds. 

 

Quote

Almost none of the things you wrote about are out there "causing issues" at the moment 

you, just as others, mentioned that they dont see any value in such a doc and that suggestions would be prefered which deal with mesmers issues under current circumstances and not in a fictive world where all classes are on a lower power lvl and higher skill requirement lvl.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I'm assuming you mean this part: "since i was measuring the delay from the button click on mirropr images (not even from f1 what is even a smaller delay since there is some personal button spam delay in case you are not using a macro)"

Your bad English which makes it hard to understand aside, you are referring to clicking/pressing the Mind Wrack (F1) button here (at least that is what your text says), which is not the same as when the damage packet from Illusionary Persona actually hits, which is what I measured from.

 

 

 

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My measurement in the video was from the illusionary persona hit to the clone hit, if I had counted from when I pressed Mirror Images it would have been even longer

no you were refering to me measuring from the mi click.

 

the delay you measure when going from ip hit to clones hit instead from clikcing f1 to clone hit would be even smaller. means my method of measuring was even in favor of your and terrorhuz's arguement, since i generate a little more delay as it actually has for the opponent. 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Apologies - I assumed you, as an experienced Mesmer main, would understand immediately, but I will clarify.

Mind Wrack:
1 Illusion: 1.0
2 Illusions: 1.6
3 Illusions: 2.1

Damage per clone for 1-clone shatter = 1.0/1 = 1.0
Damage per clone for a 1-clone shatter 1.6/2 = 0.8
Total damage for 1-clone shatter = 1.0*2 (incl. Illusionary Persona) = 2.0
Total damage for 2-clone shatter = 0.8*3 (incl. Illusionary Persona) = 2.4
Percent more damage a 2-clone shatter does than a 1-clone shatter = 2.4/2.0 = 1.2 = 20% more damage
Percent less damage a 1-clone shatter does than a 2-clone shatter = 1-2.0/2.4 = 0.166666... =16.7% less damage

Apparently 1-clone shatters inflicting 16.7% less damage than 2-clone shatters means we need to treat them like they are universes apart, including even making skills that summon 2 clones blindable.

as said, when 17/20% dmg isnt a meaningful difference for you in terms of power lvl of a single skill, then lets just delete the second clone from mi. not a big deal for you and me happy. win win!

 

also lets see what else on mes we can nerf by 17% since its obviously not a big deal!

 

also im not 100% sure here how server is doing the math but those dmg differences are only on paper  (means when the sample or time span is high/long enough, what isnt the case for a single fight or even a whole pvp match), crit counts for each clone itself and can differ pretty high in the short term (esp with superior complex trait), means the difference in reality isnt constant short term and a second clone adds another chance to crit. each clone still can crit or not crit. what, depending on your crit dmg (ferosity), will make the difference volatile. 2 clones on one skill compared to one clone on one skill increases the randomness in the short term and randomness isnt rly cool. having lucky crits deciding a fight is not rly satifying imo. having this randomness doubled up on mirror images is a minor point on paper (looking at pure math in the long run) i agree, but its another point i dont like about it. so i think overall i provided more than enough reasons for my opinion about mi, you can disagree but you cant claim those reasons have anything to with any bias towards a specific build. i peronaly dont use it bc it feels to easy to play and an unhealthy mechanic. otherwie i would just use it also on my specific mirage build.

 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

The cd investment is objectively higher as measured in seconds, and on a personal level blowing your utility slot for 35 seconds is a huge investment, certainly bigger than a dodge and skill #2.

well not certainly bigger just in your opinion bigger. you should stay subjective yourself when you claim, that everyhting is only subjective anyway. otherwise kinda hypocrit.

 

i value the lost ability to get out of jail twice instead only one time clearly higher than you. and as mentioned the staff thing is a bug as far as i know and also i personally like the interaction bc it adds skill ceiling and the need to know more about the class for the mesmer player. it is sure not fair for the opponent and should be fixed, also me personally would be bit sad about losing that interaction on staff 2. 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Nothing to do with reflexes or skill ceiling. Having good keybinds is not a trade-off.

clicking/ comboing more buttons is for sure a part of skill ceiling otherwise my oneshot on ranger with pressing sickem and bow2 would have around the same skill ceiling than the mesmer burst combo with 6 buttons pressed (ye ofc mesmer also need to time within the combo to get max vuln up but you get the direction).  the need to have fast reflexed to pull a combo off is also part of skill ceiling. what the heck... oO

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It's incredibly inconsistent and a bad idea, the entire class works a certain way (clone summoning skills that do not need to hit a target are not blindable) and you wish to change this for one and only one skill. And for someone who seems to like to think of themselves as objective I must appreciate the argument of "it does bug me".

i agree its inconsistent to add it to mi only, also mi is not a normality in terms of its nature since its the one and only  skill without a casttime that does provide 2 clones.. and i think the value of making it more reactive counterplayable  by more forms of defensives worth the drawback of inconsistency.  or we rly just delete the second clone and make it unique (different to decoy) in some other way. i always voted for reverting the buffs to staff and scepter to give 2 clones instead one, since even on skills with casttime i dont think 2 clones with one skill are balanced (forgot to mention the gs trait). 

 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Of course you are not offended by the concept of a summary itself, that would be ludicrous. You obviously would not have been offended if I had summarized your document as "Wow, this was amazing, I agree with everything Jazz!".

What you are trying to essentially say here is that "I'm not offended because of your summary but because you called me biased", but what you are forgetting is that me calling you biased is part of my summary of my impressions. I read the text and thought "kitten, these aren't well-developed suggestions that I can agree with, and on top of it they regrettably seem biased as a whole in the direction JazzXman tends to be biased based on what I have previously seen from her".

Also, It's not mediocre because you are biased, It's mediocre and you are biased.

already answered in my previous post

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"i just said, that in case i would care about certain ppl disagreements by itself, than there are a lot of ppl i would care more about than yours."

From this we can infer that you value certain people agreeing with you more than others. And If I say "I don't care about people agreeing with me but If I did, I would care more about Boyce agreeing with me than Helseth" then I am conceding that I am placing a certain value in Boyce agreeing with me. If the value of any person agreeing with you was zero, then one person couldn't be more valuable than another (because they would both be zero).

no why? cant see that inference. i dont care if ppl agree or disagree but there are ppl i value their opinions higher since i know them better and experienced how they think, how much effort they put into getting as close as possible to the truth, i know how flexible/ open minded their thinking usually is and how smart they are and how high their knowledge and udnerstanding of the game and their personal skill lvl is. i still dont mind those ppl disagreeing or agreeing but i mind if they are reasonable and come with well profounded argument or not and if they respect also my counterarguments in case they cannot convince me wihtout coming with the stubborn blam.

 

as for that doc i in general value feedback and everyones opinion (even yours if you would be less emotional fighting me with tactical debate club nonsense and be more constructive instead) for the reasons i already mentioned in the previous post (personal improvement of gameknowledge /understanding by brainstorming not only over pros but also cons of my suggestions from other players pov)

 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I think you have attachment to being respected (as in the sense of "admired" or "looked up to" which makes sense because you typically are on the Mesmer forums) and to not be perceived as biased, so of course my comment struck a chord.

All of this is pretty irrelevant though.

ye another one of your subjective insanely impressions i cannot prove wrogn by maths. if you wanna see me that negative i cannot do anything against it. for that you tryhard too hard to stay with that impression and for that you dont believe me anthign that comes out of my mouth. also i think i already explained enough what my midnset behind my build craft and my posting on the forum is. 

feel free to not believe as usual.

 

if i would want so hard that ppl in this mesmer subforum applaud me and admire me  it would be more smart to NOT post a doc that includes mostly nerfs to their class, since its pretty unsurprising that most ppl will disagree and not like that. so also this impression of yours doesnt hold up against looking at it with bit more  logic.

 

but that almost make me feel as if your bias towards me is linked to some grudge about me being known. 

also kinda funny to read this since i was for around 8 years not active anywhere and still today usually try to stay out of any spotlight since i dont feel comfortable in it. the only reason i started to write on forums and discord was that the game went worse and worse yb bad balance from clueless devs since the last around 4 years now and i love the game and hoped i can add some constructive suggestions to make the game better and comeptitive gamemodes not die bc all good players stop playing since its not skillbased competitive anymore. well seems im not good at helping the game out. maybe i shoudl stop again doing it and save a lot of my time and the time of ppl to interact with me, my bias my godcomplex and my walls of text. 

 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I know what you have previously written/said and my impressions of that as a totality. You doubtlessly have various impressions about my character as well that would not fit into my real-life self-image - that's okay.

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

See above for discussion about what "triggered" you (I haven't used that word, but you do keep referring to yourself as triggered so I suppose you are, seems possibly indicative of some hopefully minor underlying psychological issue or insecurity).

no it is indicative of your way more rude and unconstructive way of acting in the past just as in this thread. i dont know you in rl so no clue how different you act there (i hate ppl who are not real on social platforms and use the internet to be more toxic and destructive).

 

its also not about me caring about what you think of me as a person,  as long as your way of acting towards me doesnt become overly  destructive.  if you think so negatively about me that you lit dont believe anything what comes out of my mouth, than there is no room for a constructive discussion since you dont give me any room to deal with you. if you still have not understood that after my previous post you prolly never will and then i suggest that we just ignore each other from now on. when you dont think devs read anything here you also dont need to care what senseless nonsense in your opinion i write here. 

 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

We have had a fair bit of constructive communication I think, you actually seem more inclined to respond to me in detail than to the other people who are "more constructive" than me despite saying that you wouldn't respond anymore multiple times, so my approach seems to work well.

im just wondering how your world looks like. dude such strange logic 😆

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I can't believe you are actually trying to challenge that. Game updates/February 2020 - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

where did i try to challenge that? i just did ask for datas since i dont have some and if you claim something you always should provide the datas in case there are some existing. that is how consturctive reasoning/arguing is working. you seeems to have problems with that. 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Why? Not necessarily disagreeing, just wondering.

Have you considered advocating for an increased health pool as an alternative?

that would work too but always by the risk of starting the power creep spiral again and i think its overall harder to do the math how much hp you wanna add  to compensate for 1000000000 skills in the game having too much dmg or too low cd. in the end running around with 80000 hp as pure glass canon doesnt rly look appealing for me.

 

Why i wanna decrease sustain? becuase the game is way too forgiving/ mistakefriendly in current state and increasing dmg to prevent bunker meta is sure the wrong direction since it will screw up the glasscanon vs glasscanon builds relations to a pure "who hits his oneshot first" clownfiesta. just one example: when a thief needs to hit 12k backstab or 10k cloak and dagger or heartseekers to be able to scratch a bunker scrapper with 3k armor, perma prot, weakness apllication etc on sides when +1ing it, than you will not have fun with a class canon ele ever. 

 

 

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It interrupts skills but does not have a cast time. The clone comes out as quick as with Mirror Images by my measurements.

Of course it only summons one clone, that was the entire point, I told you that Phase Retreat or Decoy (which both summon only one clone) into shatter only does 16.7% less damage than Mirror Images into shatter - which isn't exactly universes apart in my mind (comparable to running with vs without Mental Anguish trait).

"Pretty big" meaning 16.7% lower damage to be specific (at the cost of not getting a 3 second stealth by the way).

Yeah, it's because that would reveal you instantly, nullifying the point of using Decoy. Though it isn't true that people never use Decoy offensively, 

decoy interrupting castskills exactly prevents it from being used in oneshot burst combos, it makes the skill weaker and ensures that its not rly used offensive and when than with clearly lower dmg and a clear trade off in losing most of the stealth. only chrono in cs would use decoy offensive in cs since you can just roll your face over the keyboard and everyhting you press has value since you have no cd costs since cs resets it anyway. aside from it being only one clone. also retargeting acts near to a stealth just that you dont get revealed while still hitting your opponent. ofc your detarget span is shorter than a full 3 secs stealth but that gets compensated by previous argument of not being revealed while attacking.  measn you can use mi offensive withotu the trade off of losign the retargeting in full value. on decoy you give up stealth adn stunbreak on mi you only give up the stunbreak what even has a lower cd than decoy (and didnt you just said that you are the opinion that stunbreaks on mes have lower value since you have so many ways to get out of trouble? not that i agree to that, but dont only use your claims when they serve your opinion).

 

illu ambush you lit never need to use offensive since you ususally get full offensive value and defensive value when using it defensive. also the power lvl in terms of dmg is just ridic. you can lit make 7k with the mesmer own gs ambush with superiro complex (and even 5k is way too much)+clone ambushes in case you have clones up..lot of the problems of illu ambush can be solved by reworking mesmers ambushes to be more utility based (so not having that much direct dmg anymore). since  then a defensive use would still provide a some offensive value but the mesmer need to be in the position to go offensive again right after illu ambush use to capitalize of the vuln/ might stacks. atm its just a low effort high dmg skill that provides tons of defense.sure higher skill cap than pressing an instant mantra for some condi cleanse ofc since you have a little bit of decision making added between offensive vs defensive in very few cases but sure not high iq either, far away< from what i woudl call challenging and fun for me to use bc of that easyness and spammy character..

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, I made a video with two clients up where I attempt to dodge Mirror Images -> Shatter in melee range in the client to the right. I did this by using a macro that sent the commands to the client to the left. In order to ensure I was actually actively reacting; I added a random delay after I activated the macro and before the actual attack would commence. I also covered up the left client window so as to be sure I only reacted to what was visible on the right client window. For the waiting duration between using Mirror Images and using Mind Wrack I tried both 50ms and 10ms which is faster than human speeds.

The result was that I managed to dodge it many times in succession without much difficulty.

 

Quote

9. empiric researches measured an average human reaction time of 0,284 secs, which doesnt include searching the right button, doesnt include waiting for an animation to be recognized, doesnt include decision making, since the reasearch side "Human benschmark" only measured how long a human needs to click with his left mouse button on a screen that changes his colour. means the average  human reaction time ingame towards different possible animations is for sure higher (thats why you usually say a delay/casttime of 0,5 is the absolute minimum of what can be considered reactive ingame).

2 things: you just measure the not-ingame human reaction time as the official test side "human benchmark" did, so in case you are not below average slow you can react to something you know will come at a raondom time in a way you alrewady pre decided (knowing which button you wanna press) with an average human benchmark of 0,284, what is as explained in the quote not the realistic reaction time in a real fight situation. gg for proving the humna benchmakr side right, also i think with over 8million entries (lets assume half of it are the same ppl over and over) the sample was already big enough to prove it as valid.

 

and you also still dont measure the delay from the opponents pov, since a lot of stuff in the game interacts with your hardware and get rendered faster. also you have still your own same ping on both screens. an opponent comming from a totally different direction with totally different ping will still have a bigger delay than you have, and im not talkign abotu extrema like oversee ping from america or something like that (you have no delay on your both screens  as far as it looks like, what doesnt rly surprise me for just listed reasons).

 

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Now you are at least trying to be more consistent in advocating for delayed (non-instant) clone generation across the board - I don't agree with it but you can hold that opinion if you want.

i never said something else, so i was always consistent, i always was critical towards instant clone gen (that i only mention mi bc it causes more trouble with providing 2 clones doesnt prove your right) but if you feel better when making it look like you caused me to take something back again, even tho it isnt the case, than go for it.

 

 

Quote

if you use something like Mirror Blade -> Mirror Images -> Mind Wrack from stealth, the opponent will very often dodge the clone shatters and just get hit by the Mirror Blade & Illusionary Persona shatter

stealth aside you already have a delay in how you have to play the combo between gs2 and f1/mirror images + ofc the little delay of mi itself (which can even for both clones be under 0,5 secs as proven in my vid) . what i experienced ingame a lot while playing vs good player and not coming out of nowhere from stacked stealth: good player will well timed dodge your gs2 as it should be and then eat mi after. what is just a bad mechanic when player actually get punished for dodging the telegraphed part of the burst combo. then i can even burst twice after cs ends. so you have to eat gs2 on purpose to not double dodge gs2/f1 +mi delayed. on the other side, if you make mi really instant on effect, that then  means mi does also reward slow mesmers (slow in clicking the whole combo) and delaying mi hits by too slow skill cklicking, so they hit after the well timed dodge of gs2. in both ways (with the too short delay and when rly being instant in hitting the dmg) mi just causes an unhealthy/unfair interaction with the opponent. rewarding either slow/bad mesmers or punishing good players with well timed dodges of gs2. give it a casttime so its not a mainly offensive used oneshot meme skill anymore. that is lit the only way out i see atm.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Probably not going to get the time to respond to this whole thing, need to study. Anyway...

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

yes it is indeed easy to fall in that trap to play a build you personally by your pure subjective taste enjoy a lot (because you like the flow of the class/build, its theme/class identity or the mechanics or the colour of the skillbar or whatever) and then try to call it skillful since no one like to admit that he is just a carried by build dude. you see that behavior everywhere when looking at gamer kids. and it is easy to accuse everyone to be like that, even tho we are not all like that. but sadly you cant rly prove that it is not the case in your own case. i cant slice my head so you can look into it. if it just would be so easy... (*dreaming)

 

but i told you, im aware of that trap. thats why i pay extra attention to  me not falling into that trap. also my mindset makes it easier to avoid the trap, since im personally rly more interested in being really challenged, when stuff feels too easy to play for me, then i get bored pretty fast. its hard to lie to myself about how hard the build is im playing with that mindset (ofc some lack of skill still can warp that impression).

 

 

after the build craft (which i already do on purpose to find the most challenging build since that is what drives me, that is my main goal, even more its my only goal in the build craft) i then check that by my personal ingame experiences, the praxis test so to say (what feels easy to play and less reeactive/ interactive and fair) and what doesnt (what ofc isnt rly a prove just an indicator). and my basis to do so is gameknowledge, knowledge of balance logics/basic balance rules etc by informing myself, empiric researches, testing, logical deductions etc. or short: by trying to built opinions which are as reasonable, grounded in reality/truth, profound as possible.

 

so i do a lot of effort actually to not be one of those gamers first picking what they personally enjoy the most by pure personal taste (or what they by personal skill deficits are only able to play, you know the guys who think inspi/chaos bunker mes is skillful to play) and then as step 2 try to convice ppl that their build is skillful.

 

also i did tell you that the progress to find the specific mirage de/ih build started with theoriecrafting a build which i think is the maximum skilled/challenging to play. that by default keeps any subjective emotions over the build like fun, having a habit to play it etc out of the maths. the build was before i even played it already in the theoriecraft made to be the highest skill ceiling build. 

since those are the builds i know i ususally have the most fun with.

 

means i checked the skill ceiling of that build on different lvls, to be sure my results are as less as possible warped by simple matter of taste things or a correlation with a lack of personal skill (since of course the worse you are at the game, or the least a playstyle/mechanic fits to your own playstyle the harder even easy builds feel to play for you). thast why i double check with balance logic and ingame experiences.

 

ofc you can go the easy way again and say that you just dont believe me. nothing i can do vs that killer argument/ thought terminating cliche (seems to be close to what i mean if i understand the english correct there, thx for the link) 

 

i meant that the nerf parts i suggest (like less direct dmg on mesmers own ambushes so that utilities are the main purpose/ main reward you will use the ambushes for, just as deleting dmg from clone ambushes completely, just as adding a higher cd between the 2 mantra charges) i did suggest already when mirage still had 2 dodges and before the mantra recharge got deleted. what logically means: i dont use them as compensation for buffs i wanna have.

 

the buffs i suggest only were added to the doc because of bad nerfs happend in between (one dodge nerf, mantra rework). again: my doc before the dodge deletion or the mantra rework would still incl those nerfs even if mirage never lost its dodges and even if mantras never were reworked.  that i just wanna compensate the buffs for my own build by nerfing all other builds even more is a negative interpretation and doesnt make sense logically. and devalues my suggestion in an unfair and destructive way by a wrong claim. 

 

and this is exatcly one point that triggers me about you: you have a habit into my direction to interpret everything the most negative way possible. why? it feels the answer is, because you simply dont like me and want to see me in a negative way.

I'm sorry that the idea of me not liking you triggers you so much.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i mean that is fine for me and i would not care about that, if it wouldnt prevent discussing constructive. since i want a contructive discussion (brainstorming pros and YES ALSO CONS) over my suggestions and all im asking you for is, to keep that subjective negativity out of the discussion. that cant be too much to ask for. the way you jumped into the thread was useless and destructive and its rly unnecessary to act like that. but yes i guess next time i just ignore your posts and the negativity inbetween the lines until you come up with something contructive.  only react to your wellfounded arguments and not the subjective claims that i cant prove wrong by math anyway. it feels you have a strong wish of interpreting me negative and it is super exhauting and prevents to hold up a constructive discussion with you. 

You cannot prove balance suggestions wrong with math I'm sorry to say.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

as just explained i dont, it was just your wrong interpretation that my nerf suggestions to my own build are related to the buffs i suggest before or after.  

again you mix up different arguments at different points. the fact that i said i would just delete the second split hit on chrono f1 (which isnt the instant part) should tell you by logic that my wish to nerf chrono dmg (esp when getting distortion back) was at that point not related to the instant nature. it was related to the fact that chrono has in general too much dmg (also on shatters) imo. the dmg is so high bc it needs to compensate for the too low amount of active defense what prevents chrono to stay in reactive fights. so giving distortion back will add the ability to play more interactive with opponents instead just oneshotting. means chrono can also get a lower and with that more reactive amount of burst dmg just as overall less hit spam (since also the spam makes it less reactive not only the instant part of the shatters) when getting distortion back. i also said it makes sense that chrono has a lower amount of (instant) shatter dmg, since chrono has way shorter cds on shatters due to alac and cs. and i never took that back.

 

also my post you quoted in your first comment in this thread included already what i said after: that the instant shatter dmg can be too high on chrono and ALL power mes builds due to dmg multiplier stacking.  the only reason i mentioned chrono explicit as spec was bc it has different shatters than core and also way lower cd on shatters than mirage or core, so chrono needs by default a lower instant shatter dmg (a lower shatter dmg in general and doesnt need a compensation for that by adding a second split hit which only increases zone denail spam and hit spam). 

 

it always feels like you read what you want to read and not what i actually say. as if you tryhard to missinterpret my stuff so you can prove me wrong and can keep your negative impression of me up no matter what. its just annoying to talk to someone who deals so unfair and negative with me all the time. ofc parts of our missunderstandings also might be language barrier but i heavily doubt its only my bad english causing that. but you are clearly negative biased towards me and that is an impression that is not wraped by following a spurious correlation its very obvious inbetween the lines of your behavior when interacting with me. 

Nah I used to find you way more agreeable far in the past, it is what you have written/said throughout the years that eventually made me change my mind somewhat.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

NOW THE IMPORTANT PART that might help us in the future to avoid such disputes and missunderstandings, so kindly asking/beggin you: maybe you can in the future ask me more open minded how i meant stuff before you start claiming that anything proves my bias (with a satisfied GOTCHA in between the lines because you think now you catched my bias in the act). all im asking for and i think its just basic social competence at this point: is that you come along more open minded in my direction and less accusing/claiming. leave your personal opinion about me more out of the discussion and keep it more constructive next time. maybe give me a bit more credit for stuff i tell you about myself, instead by default not believing any word coming out of my mouth.

No thanks, what "comes out of your mouth" is basically "my build is the most skilled build in the game, every other build including every other mesmer build is much less skilled than mine and need to be nerfed hard in X Y Z ways." possibly followed some bad justification for why that is.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i dont mean agree to me and i dont mind when you think my sugestions are bad or mediocre and when you tell me that in a respectful pma way that leaves room for discussion.. my problem with you is about how you behave and not about what you think about my suggestions. 

Part of "that I think about your suggestions" (my impressions) are that they are a bit biased, which you did mind - a lot - in fact you were very offended by it.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

here in this thread are at least 10 ppl disagreeing with me, one (phokus right on page one) even just as useless summorized as you did, by only saying the suggestions are bad, without any further explanations which suggestions he think are bad and why he thinks that. did i get triggered at him or anyone else for simply disagreeing or simply summorizing them as bad? no. 

means why the hell you think your pure disagreement and you summorizing my suggestions as mostly mediocre was the reason i got triggered when other ppl did the same and i wasnt triggered?

I already said that you are attached to the idea of you not being biased.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

Dude, balance is not a matter of pure taste. there is ofc some subjectivity onto it but as most topics in the world they are inbetween the extrema of being a pure matter of taste (the topic "do you like rain?" is pure subjective) and being pure objective (rain is wet, 2+2=4). 

 

the moment a topic isnt a pure matter of taste you can built your opinions in very different ways. more well profounded,  based on reality, logic and facts (science based) while on purpose doing a lot of effort to keep your personal feelings and preferences out of it or you can have an opinion that is only grounded in subjective feelings/ taste just off the top of your head.

You can make incorrect statements (such as Mirror Images -> Mind Wrack not being dodgeable on reaction) but balance suggestions are necessarily going to be subjective, for instance I can't say that you are objectively wrong in wanting Mirror Images to have a cast time, I can only disagree with it. You could of course balance based on data such as win rates, but only Anet have access to that info and it doesn't seem to help them much.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

ofc also the first more science based way doesnt mean you are always right and never miss something what then leads to a wrong conclusion. but it sure means the wrong conclusion or the wrong opinion is not wrong because of some subjective taste/ bias towards the topic. so if you jump into the thread not doing more than making a pure summary without any other reasoning added than my bias, then you lit  suggests that my suggestions ONLY are bad bc of and my opinions about balance wrong ONLY BECAUSE of the bias. what is a pretty unfair shortsighted low effort argument to devalue my suggestions and any work of research, gameknowledge etc that i put into it. if you didnt mean it liek that, then give more attention to the way you say stuff. 

They are bad because I disagree that they would improve the game (note; that's not true for all your suggestions, for instance removing Distortion from Blurred Inscriptions) and because more pertinent changes to be made are left out.

Why should I lie and pretend I value it more than I do. I'm not sure if you really want to hear more reasoning behind my summary, it's just going to feel even more mean. Some points:

1. Includes changes (especially nerfs) that aren't really needed to skills that aren't problematic.

2. Doesn't include several things that are much more relevant.

3. Includes some changes that are confusing or inconsistent with the rest of the game (like blindable MI).

4. The language and structure isn't great.

5. Barely plays lip service to the other 2 game-modes, which matters when you aren't just changing numbers.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

so in future better start jumping into my thread when you have the time to be constructive or at least keep any reasoning out and say you will explain your opinion later. the way you did it makes it look like as if calling me biased proves for you already, that my suggestions are bad just because of that bias.. this happening in the context of how overly negative you react to all stuff i say (also in the past in other threads) is indeed triggereing bc it make the whole discussion insanely unfun and exhausting and destructitive.

No thanks.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

well see all above i guess.

 

again you prove your claim of me being biased with a not profounded generalization that i ofc am not able to see my own bias (thought determining cliche strikes again).

Have you really never heard about implicit biases. They are literally the most common form of biases.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

as if there doesnt something excist called self reflection. but i slowly develop the impression that self reflection doesnt exist for you. at least, you are not able to reflect yourself, so you assume no one else is able to either. that is also expected since its a common error in reasoning to judge others by your own standards.. and happens even easier when you have a strong subjective wish to make someone look bad or narrowed or biased and also like to happens easy with ppl who are in general narrow minded and/or not the smartest on the planet (just generally talking without judging if that fits to you or not).

Sure. I don't have a wish to make you look bad, you did that on your own I'm afraid.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

that is maybe your only reason to post on forum, but my reason for this thread was a constructive discussion, the brainstorming, which has value for me personally even in case devs do not read it. since i have a personal interest in improving my gameknowledge and game-understanding and constructive criticism is for that even more helpful than full agreeing with me and simple applaus. but i guess here we are again: you judging me depending on your own lower standards. 

You're wasting your time on this forum.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

to the point that the balance topic is sure not a matter of pure subjectivity i said already enough.

 

 

your missing self reflection hits again xD

 

lol those claims were not meant serious, i just tried to make you look in the mirror by faking a situation where you say "buff core or chrono in this or that way because ..." and all i would write when jumping in would be: "your suggestions are mediocre because they are infected by your narrowed bias towards core/chrono." end of reasoning. 

That is indeed what you tried to do, the imitation failed however as the claims in your hypothetical were easily disproven.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

if you dont care when ppl try to devalue your work by low effort claims, then good for you. i personally always get triggered by unconstructivity and unfair fight tactics alla depate club politician kitten and when ppl just dont care for truth and are only interested to keep their opinion up no matter what. 

You are in the wrong arena because balance suggestions are never going to be objective or "the truth".

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i have played all specs (except virtu since its still very new) for a very long time very often (core and chrono even the most since they are the oldest specs) and all with different builds and i play all specs on equall skill lvl and could until now compete with all of them equally good.. i cant name one im remarkable worse at (ofc virtu is obviously way easier to play by its basic spec design so i do already well on it with way less playtime). i also play condi on all specs (while my condi mes is in tendency weaker than my power mes over all builds except the power block hybrid build on mirage, since i dont play it as much bc i get bored by their easyness too fast). i have no need at all for any bias towards any build or spec. the moment i would find a build on chrono/core/virtu or mirage that is more challenging for me, i would just stop playing that specific mirage build and go for the other build instead when i want max skill challenge. 

Personally I'd say Mirage is probably the easiest to me (if we exclude inspiration Virtuoso).

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i also play builds which use mirror images (pre eod a build that could compete on top lvl, and its very common, for sure an equally valueable pick to the alternatives, on power chrono builds). i dont judge those skills without even playing them seriously (means also vs top player).

You can play it on power Chrono but only because it works well with continuum split and because the other utilities are almost all bad to mediocre. I'd say in the best case scenario (i.e. on power chrono) it is a bit below SoM and Mantra, in other cases it is far below that.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

also most differences in skill ceiling are obvious and can be detected by having basic balances rules in mind and following balance logic (while ofc you always can miss certain aspects of the game, since the game is very complicated and detailed in mechanics or you do something wrong during testing etc. thats why constructive discussion/brainstorming with other ppl over my suggestions is always valuable for me in terms of personal development/improvement of gameknowledge/understanding and the personal flexible open minded thinking).

 

for example that the invulnspam on inspi signets trait is unhealthy and low iq skill ceiling is kinda obvious and outside of the ppl who rly need to be carried by that no one rly would disagree. other differences in skill ceiling  are less obvious and more a matter of how much you value differences . yes as already said by me. never claimed something else. another reason why i value posting my doc on the forum to get constructive criticism to brainstorm and argue about. 

Eh, It's still active defense so I could certainly see an argument for it enabling high skill ceiling. Also for me the main issue with inspiration is not the lack of a high skill ceiling but the low skill floor.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you did, the first time i did read your post the part in () that stubborness is not necessary something bad wasnt there. it was there  later when i finally found the time to answer and quote it but it wasnt there right after you posted (before editing it the first time). 

No.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

were did i say mirror images is a part of power creep? i never did. i only talk in general about reducing power creep as my overall goal that doesnt mean that every single suggestion is made to redcue power creep. some suggestions are just there to make mesmer more interactive/ reactive and better balanced imo. that somethign excist since core doesnt prove its good. it can just mean its unbalanced and non interactive since core days. 

"were did i say mirror images is a part of power creep?"

My response of "nerfing mirror images would not bring down power creep" was posted in response to you saying:

"they are all important to bring the class (and hopefully all classes in reaction to that) down to a less power creeped lvl"

Which in turn was in response to me saying:

"Many things you mention aren't important. When was the last time you actually got oneshot by something like a Mirror Images -> Shatter combo?"

So Mirror Images was included in that, perhaps not intentionally but certainly by what you wrote.

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

but if you wanna talk about the question if mirror images is power creeped than yes mechancially it is. since they added previously mirage exclusive retargeting to it. what was never needed and should be deleted anyway.

 

hm?  what did this have anything to do with you?

i just  explained why i made suggestions which nerf mesmer even more even tho its not meta and doesnt overperform atm compared to other classes/builds. 

Ok, if that's what you meant to say you did a bad job of it, you said:

"i dont think it makes sesne to refuse every nerf discussion just because other classes are equally or even more inbalanced/ unhealthy/ braindead playable. you have to define where you wanna go with your balance ideas, otherwise nothing will ever be nerfed (when all main-player never suggest nerfs to their class as long as more broken stuff exist)"

In response to me disagreeing about your Mirror Images nerf suggestion.

 

 

[JazzXman.7018]

25 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Probably not going to get the time to respond to this whole thing, need to study. Anyway...

I'm sorry that the idea of me not liking you triggers you so much.

you miss the point again. holy. ok i give up.

25 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You cannot prove balance suggestions wrong with math I'm sorry to say.

where did i claim that? again you didnt understand anything i said. i guess you rly just dont want to. 

25 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Nah I used to find you way more agreeable far in the past, it is what you have written/said throughout the years that eventually made me change my mind somewhat.

i miss the connection to the writting from me you quoted

25 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

No thanks, what "comes out of your mouth" is basically "my build is the most skilled build in the game, every other build including every other mesmer build is much less skilled than mine and need to be nerfed hard in X Y Z ways." possibly followed some bad justification for why that is.

whatever dude. its fine, stay with your subjective impressions. lets just end this 3 pages ongoing mess at this point. 

you dont like my suggestions and also not me and thats ok, that never was the problem. but we cant communicate constructive like that. and ofc we can just say the error, the reasons for that are ofc all on my side. just let it end and never restart again. its a waste of time for both of us and just makes the thread a mess to read for everyone.

 

and yes i said it several times already that i will stop repling but you managed to triggered me back in very effective with your unproven claims and impressions you are so sure about but i will not deal with the rest of your answers anymore, since all i could answer, all what could come out of my mouth is nonsense anyway (at least the parts where i disagree to you, where you cant convince me). and no matter how much i disagree or how good arguments i would have against stuff you will come up with, and how much i would swear that im not lying nor missing the bias you accuse me of (i tribble checked at this point and still cant find it) writing them down will not change anything  anyway. so i can save both of us the time and stop to even open my mouth in your direction.

Edited September 25, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

 

no you were refering to me measuring from the mi click.

No no no no no. You said that you first measured from the mi click and then from the f1 click (I would say press but whatever), I said that i measured from the first Mind Wrack hit. They are different.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

the delay you measure when going from ip hit to clones hit instead from clikcing f1 to clone hit would be even smaller. means my method of measuring was even in favor for your and terrorhuz arguement, since i generate a little more delay as it actually has for the opponent. 

Doesn't matter who your measurement method is in favor of, correct is correct, you should know this.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

as said, when 17/20% dmg isnt a meaningful difference for you in terms of power lvl of a single skill, then lets just delete the second clone from mi. not a big deal for you and me happy. win win!

Funnily enough that's actually an idea I've talked about before, lowering cd or making it an ammo skill and reducing it to 1 clone. That would be a pretty big buff since 1 extra clone has pretty low value for Mind Wrack anyway. Plus I don't play with the skill currently so it wouldn't affect me at all (doubly so because I'm looking to quit the game).

It has the same value as having Mental Anguish or not, so by this logic perhaps Shatters should get an animation you can dodge on reaction if and only if you trait Mental Anguish - I mean it's 20% more damage right, which apparently is such a huge difference that it absolutely needs to be have more counterplay i.e. be "react-able".

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

also lets see what else on mes we can nerf by 17% since its obviously not a big deal!

Apparently, there are lots of things that should be "nerfed" by more than 17% according to you:

Signet of Illusions

Superiority Complex

Mirror Images

Illusionary Ambush

All damage in the game

And those are just a few.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

also im not 100% sure here how server is doing the math but those dmg differences are only on paper, crit counts for each clone itself and can differ pretty high (esp with superior complex trait), means the difference in reality isnt constant and a second clones add another chance to crit. 

No, in practice as well. Critical damage is multiplicative, not additive, so it does not change the difference as expressed in %. This is elementary school math.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 

well not certaily bigger just in your opinion bigger. you should stay subjective yourself when you claim, that everyhting is only subjective anyway. otherwise kinda hypocrit.

That is exactly why I specifically said:

1. The cd investment is objectively higher as measured in seconds

2. And on a personal level blowing your utility slot for 35 seconds is a huge investment, certainly bigger than a dodge and skill #2.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i value the lost ability to get out of jail twice instead only one time clearly higher than you. and as mentioned the staff thing is a bug as far as i know and also i personally like the interaction bc it adds skill ceiling and the need to know more about the class for the mesmer ploayer. it is sure not fair for the opponent and should be fixed, also me personally would be bit sad about losing that interaction on staff 2. 

I would too, like I was sad about losing the sword 2 bug.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

clicking/ comboing more buttons is for sure a part of skill ceiling otherwise my oneshot on ranger with pressing sickem and bow2 would have around the same skill ceiling than the mesmer burst combo with 6 buttons pressed (ye ofc mesmer also need to time within the combo to get max vuln up but you get the direction).  the need to have fast reflexed to pull a combo off is also part of skill ceiling. what the heck... oO

 

i agree its inconsistent to add it to mi only. but i think the value of making it more reactive counterplayable  by more forms of defensives worth the drawback of inconsistency.  or we rly just delete the second clone and make it unique (different to decoy) in some other way. i always voted for reverting the buffs to staff and scepter to give 2 clones instead one, since even on skills with casttime i dont think 2 clones with one skill are balanced. 

 

 

already answered in my previous post

 

no why? cant see that inference. i dont care if ppl agree or disagree but there are ppl i value their opinions higher since i know them better and experienced how they think, how much effort they put into getting as close as possible to the truth, i know how flexible/ open minded their thinking usually is and how smart they are and how high their knowledge and udnerstanding of the skill and they personal skill lvl is. i still dont mind those ppl disagreeing or agreeing but i mind if they are reasonable and come with well profounded argument or not and if they rspect also my counterarguments in case they cannto convince me.

 

as for that doc i in general value feedback and everyones opinion (even yours if you would be less emotional fighting me with tactical debate club nonsense and be more constructive instead) for the reasons i already mentions in the previous post (personal improvement of gameknowledge /understanding by brainstorming not only over pros but also cons of my suggestions from toehr players pov)

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

ye another one of your subjective insanely impressions i cannot prove wrogn by maths.

Yeah I would advice you not to try considering you did not seem to understand the basic concept of percentages earlier above.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

no it is indicative of your way more rude and unconstructive way of acting in the past just as in this thread. i dont know you in rl so no clue how different you act there (i hate ppl who are not real on social platforms and use the internet to be more toxic and destructive).

"i hate ppl who are not real on social platforms""

Do you have a lot of hate in you?

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

its also not about me caring abotu what you htink of me as a person,  as long as your way of acting towards me doesnt become overly  destructive 

We are online, I haven't acted towards you in any way, just responded on a public forum - let's not get too schitzo. Or if you mean acting as in commenting with my thoughts, then you do care about what I think (seeing as you just said you care about how I act, and defined commenting as acting).

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

if you think so negatively about me that you lit dont believe anything what comes out of my mouth, than there is no room for a constructive discussion since you dont give me any room to deal with you. if you still have not understood that after my previous post you prolly never will and then i suggest that we just ignore each other from now on. when you dont think devs read anything here you also dont need to care what senseless nonsense i write here. 

True, I definitely don't think the devs read here, at this point I don't know if even the moderators are reading considering they haven't given out any warnings for this thread, yet which seems like something they would have in the past. 

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

 im just wondering how your world looks like. dude such strange logic 😆

where did i try to challenge that? i just did ask for datas since i dont have some and if you claim somethinh you always should provide the datas in case there are some existing. that is how consturctive reasoning/arguing is working. you seeems to have problems with that. 

How would I possibly have data on that? I don't see how that would be possible except if I worked for Anet.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

that would work too but always by the risk of starting the power creep spiral again and i think its overall harder to do the math how much hp you wanna add  to compensate for 1000000000 skills in the game having too much dmg or too low cd. in the end running around with 80000 hp as pure glass canon doesnt rly look appealing for me.

It doesn't make a difference if you have 80000 hp or 10000 hp if everybody is doing 8 times less damage in the latter case.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

Why i wanna decrease sustain? becuase the game is way too forgiving/ mistakefriendly in current state and increasing dmg to prevent bunker meta is sure the wrong direction since it will screw up the glasscanon vs glasscanon builds relations to a pure "who hits his oneshot first" clownfiesta. just one example: when a thief needs to hit 12k backstab or 10k cloak and dagger or heartseekers to be able to scratch a bunker scrapper with 3k armor, perma prot, weakness apllication etc on sides when +1ing it, than you will not have fun with a class canon ele ever. 

Yeah I agree on the reasoning here.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

decoy interrupting castskills exactly prevents it from being used in oneshot burst combos,

We are talking about using it to enable an instant "uncounterplayable" shatter. If you are doing oneshot combos (like Mirror Blade -> Whatever -> Mind Wrack) then there is counterplay built in anyway because Mirror Blade has an animation.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

it makes the skill weaker and ensures that its not rly used offensive and when than with clearly lower dmg and a clear trade off in losing most of the stealth. only chrono in cs would use decoy offensive in cs since you can just roll your face over the keyboard and everyhting you press has value since you have no cd costs since cs resets it anyway.

Yeah, sadly that tradeoff is pretty lame and almost never relevant due to the offensive value being so low, indeed.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

aside from it being only one clone. also retargeting acts near to a stealth just that you dont get revealed while still hitting your opponent. ofc your detarget span is shorter than a full 3 secs stealth but that gets compensated by previous argument of not being revealed while attacking.  measn you can use mi offensive withotu the trade off of losign the retargeting in full value.

Not sure what you are saying here, you can use Decoy offensively and get the full detarget just like you can with MI.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

on decoy you give up stealth adn stunbreak on mi you only give up the stunbreak what even has a lower cd than decoy

Yeah sadly the offensive value of Decoy is so low that it almost never becomes a real choice (which you agree with) outside of a few circumstances.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

(and didnt you just said that you are the opinion that stunbreaks on mes have lower value since you have so many ways to get out of trouble? not that i agree to that, but dont only use your claims when they serve your opinion).

What? I'm saying that the defensive portion of MI is generally low because a regular stunbreak is fairly low value in most cases particularly on Mesmer. However the fact that it does have a defensive component still makes it more skilled than if it were only "summon two clones" without the stunbreak.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

illu ambush you lit never need to use offensive since you ususally get full offensive value and defensive value when using it defensive.

Not true, I have often used it to disengage with Illusionary Ambush -> detarget -> turn around -> Sword Ambush par example.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

also the power lvl in terms of dmg is just ridic. you can lit make 7k with the mesmer own gs ambush with superiro complex (and even 5k is way too much)+clone ambushes in case you have clones up..lot of the problems of illu ambush can be solved by reworking mesmers ambushes to be more utility based (so not having that much direct dmg anymore). since  then a defensive use would still provide a some offensive value but the mesmer need to be in the position to go offensive again right after illu ambush use to capitalize of the vuln/ might stacks. atm its just a low effort high dmg skill that provides tons of defense.sure higher skill cap than pressing an instant mantra for some condi cleanse ofc but sure not high iq either, far away< from what i woudl call challenging and fun for me to use bc of that easyness and spammy character..

Did you know that it is possible to dodge greatsword Illusionary Ambush -> greatsword ambush?

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

2 things: you just measure the not-ingame human reaction time as the official test side "human benchmark" did, so in case you are not below average slow you can react to something you know will come at a raondom time in a way you alrewady pre decided (knowing which button you wanna press) with an average human benchmark of 0,284, what is as explained in the quote not the realistic reaction time in a real fight situation.

In a real situation you will rarely get hit by melee clones like that unless you are stunned/Immobed in which case you should be ready for a Mirror Images burst.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

gg for proving the humna benchmakr side right, also i think with over 8million entries (lets assume half of it are the same ppl over and over) the sample was already big enough to prove it as valid.

No. You yourself talked about one should take into account that it takes a while to render the clones (which is true), plus there are uncertainties in terms of how the Anet servers handle the events, I believe that there is a general "defenders' advantage" but I could be wrong on that. Either way, there are many unknowns that make the example very distinct from humanbenchmark.com. I also believe that humanbenchmark.com is client-side.

I made the "bot" use autos in order to make it somewhat harder to see the animation, perhaps at some point I will make a bot that uses random skills in order to make it even more "realistic". It's hilarious how you think your theoretical calculations (which are inherently full of assumptions and left out variables) are more valid than my actual practical example.

I was also thinking of using Geforce Now to be able to play with two clients at once running via different physical locations but I decided I do not currently wish to put in that much effort for you since this discussion has no impact on the game anyway.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and you also still dont measure the delay from the opponents pov, since a lot of stuff in the game interacts with your hardware and get rendered faster.

This doesn't seem like a real concern, but feel free to explain yourself more clearly if you want.

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

also you have still your own same ping on both screens. an opponent comming from a totally different direction with totally different ping will still have a bigger delay than you have, and im not talkign abotu extrema like oversee ping from america or something like that (you have no delay on your both screens  as far as it looks like, what doesnt rly surprise me for just listed reasons).

See above (Geforce Now yada yada).

27 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i never said something else, so it was always consistent but if you feel better when making it look like you caused me to take something back again, even tho it isnt the case, than go for it.

Yes, you did. Phase Retreat, Deceptive Evasion, etc, there is no need to pretend you mentioned these from the beginning. Keep up the cope though, v entertaining.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

56 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you miss the point again. holy. ok i give up.

where did i claim that? again you didnt understand anything i said. i guess you rly just dont want to. 

i miss the connection to the writting from me you quoted

as if you tryhard to missinterpret my stuff so you [...] can keep your negative impression of me up no matter what"

This would seem to imply that I have had a negative impression that I wish to keep at any cost, but in reality my opinion goes up and down depending on what I read. In other words, my opinion and the way I respond is a result of what you say, not some principle to think of you negatively.

56 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

whatever dude. its fine, stay with your subjective impressions. lets just end this 3 pages ongoing mess at this point. 

Wow, I'm so proud.

56 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

you dont like my suggestions and also not me and thats ok, that never was the problem.

For me it was never a problem, for you it evidently was though (along with me calling you biased of course).

56 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

but we cant communicate constructive like that. and ofc we can just say the error, the reasons for that are ofc all on my side. just let it end and never restart again. its a waste of time for both of us and just makes the thread a mess to read for everyone.

56 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

and yes i said it several times already that i will stop repling but you managed to triggered me back in very effective with your unproven claims and impressions you are so sure about but i will not deal with the rest of your answers anymore, since all i could answer, all what could come out of my mouth is nonsense anyway (at least the parts where i disagree to you, where you cant convince me). and no matter how much i disagree or how good arguments i would have against stuff you will come up with, and how much i would swear that im not lying nor missing the bias you accuse me of (i tribble checked at this point and still cant find it) writing them down will not change anything  anyway. so i can save both of us the time and stop to even open my mouth in your direction.

Sure

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

While I understand that the objective is to make mesmer/the game more skilled, you're in the wrong game for that. 

This game isn't done to be skill demanding, if you want that you should have played GW1 or play fighting games. 

Gw2 is a game that allows the player to commit a bunch of errors without being punished for doing so. Skills not only have no risk in them but they also have safety nets. Boons everywhere, perma prot, perma quickness, shitton of stab and so on. 

I always give the example of GW1's frenzy, you attack faster but you take more damage. 

In this game you attack faster without any drawback. 

The few punishes in this game were either nerfed or straight-up deleted. 

Not worth losing one's time arguing over crap. 

[JazzXman.7018]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

While I understand that the objective is to make mesmer/the game more skilled, you're in the wrong game for that. 

This game isn't done to be skill demanding, if you want that you should have played GW1 or play fighting games. 

Gw2 is a game that allows the player to commit a bunch of errors without being punished for doing so. Skills not only have no risk in them but they also have safety nets. Boons everywhere, perma prot, perma quickness, shitton of stab and so on. 

I always give the example of GW1's frenzy, you attack faster but you take more damage. 

In this game you attack faster without any drawback. 

The few punishes in this game were either nerfed or straight-up deleted. 

Not worth losing one's time arguing over crap. 

i sadly never looked at gw1 (i started to game later), so i cant rly compare. 

but i heard that devs in gw1, when ppl were complaining that content or classes/ builds were too hard to play, the devs just said: "well  get good, l2p". i wish they would act like that in gw2. in gw2 they just want to delete skill ceiling/ cap to make avg player able to compete better with top players without them improving at the game. that is obviously a bad idea will by default lead into bad balance in competitive gamemodes. while a lower skill floor isnt even much of an issue to give newer players some easier entry. those lower skill floors just needs to be balanced correctly in their power lvl/ impact.

 

and even if gw1 was a better balanced pvp game than gw2, i only have gw2 (i guess gw1 is too old and too dead to start playing it now?) and i still love the game. it doing so bad in terms of population and competition in pvp makes me big sad. and i also rly think it has potential to be way more skillbased than it currently is and actually ever was. and that without turning it into a second gw1. that is why i put time and effort into trying to understand the games mechanics  on max deep lvl, try to work with basic balance rules and balance logic and based on that try to built up profounded opinions and suggestions about what could be changed and how and why. 

 

for me personaly i think that ofc the destructive parts driven by negative emotions and unproven claims was a waste of time for everyone but not the thread as a whole, since the constructive parts provided by other ppl still have value for me. i even learned something i missed. i mean, how cool is that? playing a game for 10 years and still be able to learn new stuff, to discover stuff i have missed until now and with that increased my knowledge/ understanding about the game even more. that is the true value of constructive criticism and disagreement of ppl,. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

8 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

i sadly never looked at gw1 (i started to game later), so i cant rly compare. 

but i heard that devs in gw1, when ppl were complaining that content or classes/ builds were too hard to play, the devs just said: "well  get good, l2p". i wish they would act like that in gw2. in gw2 they just want to delete skill ceiling/ cap to make avg player able to compete better with top players without them improving at the game. that is obviously a bad idea will by default lead into bad balance in competitive gamemodes. while a lower skill floor isnt even much of an issue to give newer players some easier entry. those lower skill floors just needs to be balanced correctly in their power lvl/ impact.

 

and even if gw1 was a better balanced pvp game than gw2, i only have gw2 (i guess gw1 is too old and too dead to start playing it now?) and i still love the game. it doing so bad in terms of population and competition in pvp makes me big sad. and i also rly think it has potential to be way more skillbased than it currently is and actually ever was. and that without turning it into a second gw1. that is why i put time and effort into trying to understand the games mechanics  on max deep lvl, try to work with basic balance rules and balance logic and based on that try to built up profounded opinions and suggestions about what could be changed and how and why. 

 

for me personaly i think that ofc the destructive parts driven by negative emotions and unproven claims was a waste of time for everyone but not the thread as a whole, since the constructive parts provided by other ppl still have value for me. i even learned something i missed. i mean, how cool is that? playing a game for 10 years and still be able to learn new stuff, to discover stuff i have missed until now and with that increased my knowledge/ understanding about the game even more. that is the true value of constructive criticism and disagreement of ppl,. 

GW1 is indeed miles ahead in terms of complexity, skillfullness and balance, sadly yes, it's too old and dead to start playing now, at least in pvp. As far as I know there are still FA (think attackers vs defenders type of pvp) going on on weekends but that's about it.
Still you can play fighting games, that's more demanding than GW2 ever was and errors are punished hard, depending on the game, a single error can get you killed (skullgirls comes to mind).

GW2 had potential to be way better , too bad.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

14 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

While I understand that the objective is to make mesmer/the game more skilled, you're in the wrong game for that. 

This game isn't done to be skill demanding, if you want that you should have played GW1 or play fighting games. 

Gw2 is a game that allows the player to commit a bunch of errors without being punished for doing so. Skills not only have no risk in them but they also have safety nets. Boons everywhere, perma prot, perma quickness, shitton of stab and so on. 

I always give the example of GW1's frenzy, you attack faster but you take more damage. 

In this game you attack faster without any drawback. 

The few punishes in this game were either nerfed or straight-up deleted. 

Not worth losing one's time arguing over crap. 

V true

Edited September 26, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[JazzXman.7018]

On 9/26/2022 at 10:03 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

GW1 is indeed miles ahead in terms of complexity, skillfullness and balance, sadly yes, it's too old and dead to start playing now, at least in pvp. 

ripperino 😞

On 9/26/2022 at 10:03 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Still you can play fighting games, that's more demanding than GW2 ever was and errors are punished hard, depending on the game, a single error can get you killed (skullgirls comes to mind).

i checked for the game you mentioned: 

sounds indeed nice, but the grafics and the overall feeling of the game is sooo not mine 😆

also i need always a bit of rp and char creation, fashion wars etc. this points hard into the mmo direction. at the start gw2 was perfect for me, since it was first released as pvp focused mmo with great action combat and a lot of potenial to be rly skillful. sad what it has become. while esp elites were the chance to increase the mechanical complexitiy and deepnes and with that skill ceiling/ cap even more. they succeeded to do it with several specs (at least in hot/pof) sadly often bad balanced in power lvl (what also is not a problem first, just to sell the specs, why not) but they started fixing power lvls (power creep) by screwing up mechanics and going in the direction of "we dont want high skill ceiling" philosophy. 

 

i already gave up hope the past months and stopped investing time into talking about balance and giving suggestions. only the 4th oct patch gave me a very little hope back. since it seems they shift a bit in philosophy and also in the way they wanna manage the game (not pure pve driven mechanical changes anymore for ex.). so i restarted posting in the forum. since gw2 indeed has potential to be way better/more skillful and i cant stop fighting for this potential as long as i have a little hope left... could i just rip this passion out of me...

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

btw besides of the games potential (how good/more skillful the game could be) and how much i rly would like to push the skill ceiling/ cap to the maximum for each skill/trait in the game, i still will delete the suggestion to make mirror images blindable  after thinking about it for some time.

 

Why? bc there is actually no reason, that every single skill/trait needs to fit my personal very high demand for very high skill ceiling. i dont need to use and like every skill or trait in the game.

 

the only important thing is, that every skill/trait is fair balanced (in terms of counterplayability and power lvl) and adds at least some skill ceiling. soooo: skills/ traits can have lower skill ceiling  than my personal prefered minimum BUT they should not fall under a minimum ceiling, that makes sense in terms of keeping skillbased competition up.

 

i think adding a casttime to mirror images  AND making it blindable both are not needed to make it fit at least to the more general and lower skill cieling standard. both are also an unnecessary hard punishment for the skill just to keep my personal high demand for maximum high skill ceiling up. 

 

as for the casttime i would suggest to test following options on testservers:

 

1. very very short one, like on decoy, so it feels instant but interrupts castskills

2. a 0,25 secs casttime in recognition of the minimum delay of 0,266 on MI first clone. both together than provide the minimum delay for reactive counterplay of 0,5 secs.

3. a 0,5 secs castime (avg casttime for skills with comparable power lvl is usually 0,75 but since clones add the discovered delay  0,5 secs is enough to bring it to the same lvl as skills with comparable power lvl)

 

all 3 options will turn the skill a bit more away from the usage as oneshot meme wheelchair tool, while still providing valueable offensive uses outside of oneshotburst combos (to not delete the bit of skill ceiling this skill has from the offensive vs defensive desicion making, means i dont want to make it totally un-usable for offensive purposes).

 

important during ingame tests is to find out which of those 3 opitions deletes the unhealthy interactions with opponents the best, which was mentioned here: 

 

Quote

stealth aside you already have a delay in how you have to play the combo between gs2 and f1/mirror images + ofc the little delay of mi itself (which can even for both clones be under 0,5 secs as proven in my vid) . what i experienced ingame a lot while playing vs good player and not coming out of nowhere from stacked stealth: good player will well timed dodge your gs2 as it should be and then eat mi after. what is just a bad mechanic when player actually get punished for dodging the telegraphed part of the burst combo. then i can even burst twice after cs ends. so you have to eat gs2 on purpose to not double dodge gs2/f1 +mi delayed.

 

on the other side, if you make mi really instant on effect (what is not possible bc of programming anyway i guess), that then  means mi does also reward slow mesmers (slow in clicking the whole combo) and delaying mi hits by too slow skill cklicking, so they hit after the well timed dodge of gs2.

 

in both ways (with the currently too short delay and when rly being instant in hitting the dmg) mi just causes an unhealthy/unfair interaction with the opponent. rewarding either slow/bad mesmers or punishing good players who dodged gs2. give it a casttime so its not a mainly offensive used oneshot meme skill anymore. that is lit the only way out i see atm.

 hopefully No.1 or 2 would be enough, since both dont make the skill remarkable more unfluid for the mesmer to use..

Edited September 27, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

21 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

ripperino 😞

i checked for the game you mentioned: 

sounds indeed nice, but the grafics and the overall feeling of the game is sooo not mine 😆

also i need always a bit of rp and char creation, fashion wars etc. this points hard into the mmo direction. at the start gw2 was perfect for me, since it was first released as pvp focused mmo with great action combat and a lot of potenial to be rly skillful. sad what it has become. while esp elites were the chance to increase the mechanical complexitiy and deepnes and with that skill ceiling/ cap even more. they succeeded to do it with several specs (at least in hot/pof) sadly often bad balanced in power lvl (what also is not a problem first, just to sell the specs, why not) but they started fixing power lvls (power creep) by screwing up mechanics and going in the direction of "we dont want high skill ceiling" philosophy. 

 

i already gave up hope the past months and stopped investing time into talking about balance and giving suggestions. only the 4th oct patch gave me a very little hope back. since it seems they shift a bit in philosophy and also in the way they wanna manage the game (not pure pve driven mechanical changes anymore for ex.). so i restarted posting in the forum. since gw2 indeed has potential to be way better/more skillful and i cant stop fighting for this potential as long as i have a little hope left... could i just rip this passion out of me...

 

Talked about that one because it's the most extreme example of - you commited an error you'll be combo'ed to death and lose tha match, I could think of.
It's not the best fighting game out there, altough I do love the graphics and design aesthetic.

Yeah if you like rp fighting games are not for you. There are some you can create a char and most of them have skins but not rp.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:30 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

2. None of the good Mesmer builds use Mirror Images. Even Power Chronomancers like Shorts aren't using it.

... th-thanks... 😞

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 9/26/2022 at 1:03 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

as said, when 17/20% dmg isnt a meaningful difference for you in terms of power lvl of a single skill, then lets just delete the second clone from mi. not a big deal for you and me happy. win win!

Now, not that I would care since chronomancer is already way worse than playing as a moa so there's not much room to make it any worse than it already is, but can you kindly stop giving dumb ideas to devs?

Edited September 28, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

5 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

... th-thanks... 😞

Hey I said good builds not good players but sorry haha

Anyway Im guessing you are gonna swap to SoI after patch or what do you think?

Edited September 29, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:41 PM, JazzXman.7018 said:

btw besides of the games potential (how good/more skillful the game could be) and how much i rly would like to push the skill ceiling/ cap to the maximum for each skill/trait in the game, i still will delete the suggestion to make mirror images blindable  after thinking about it for some time.

 

Why? bc there is actually no reason, that every single skill/trait needs to fit my personal very high demand for very high skill ceiling. i dont need to use and like every skill or trait in the game.

 

the only important thing is, that every skill/trait is fair balanced (in terms of counterplayability and power lvl) and adds at least some skill ceiling. soooo: skills/ traits can have lower skill ceiling  than my personal prefered minimum BUT they should not fall under a minimum ceiling, that makes sense in terms of keeping skillbased competition up.

 

i think adding a casttime to mirror images  AND making it blindable both are not needed to make it fit at least to the more general and lower skill cieling standard. both are also an unnecessary hard punishment for the skill just to keep my personal high demand for maximum high skill ceiling up. 

 

as for the casttime i would suggest to test following options on testservers:

 

1. very very short one, like on decoy, so it feels instant but interrupts castskills

2. a 0,25 secs casttime in recognition of the minimum delay of 0,266 on MI first clone. both together than provide the minimum delay for reactive counterplay of 0,5 secs.

3. a 0,5 secs castime (avg casttime for skills with comparable power lvl is usually 0,75 but since clones add the discovered delay  0,5 secs is enough to bring it to the same lvl as skills with comparable power lvl)

 

all 3 options will turn the skill a bit more away from the usage as oneshot meme wheelchair tool, while still providing valueable offensive uses outside of oneshotburst combos (to not delete the bit of skill ceiling this skill has from the offensive vs defensive desicion making, means i dont want to make it totally un-usable for offensive purposes).

 

important during ingame tests is to find out which of those 3 opitions deletes the unhealthy interactions with opponents the best, which was mentioned here: 

 

 hopefully No.1 or 2 would be enough, since both dont make the skill remarkable more unfluid for the mesmer to use..

Did you people who upvoted this just ignore the fact that it is already easy to dodge consistently even in melee range as I showed in my video?

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Hey I said good builds not good players but sorry haha

Anyway Im guessing you are gonna swap to SoI after patch or what do you think?

Probably not, with alac I can already shatter as much as I want anyway.

I'll experiment a lot with chaos: the reason I'm currently running inspiration is because traited Signet of Midnight is the only real answer when someone condi bombs you -and of course, 1s distortion opens up skillful interactions-, but the amount of resustain I get is frankly excessive. Besides that, the build as a whole feels definitely sluggish when it comes to moving around the map. It's effective, but it's not that fun; you can be focused down, and you have no answer to people outrotating you.

With distort baseline I'll get my cleanse from Auspicious Anguish, so I'll take that, trait Blink and roam around, sacrificing the resustain for funnier zoomies. Maybe I'll even take Illusion of Life for some fun teamplay shenanigans. The core of the build will not change, but it'll open up a lot of new playstyles.

That being said, there's another thing to consider when patch drops.

I was in favor of Blurred Inscriptions providing distortion, since it was the only source of invuln on the already dog-tier chronomancer. Now that distortion is baseline on all mesmer specs (if that's healthy or not it's not up for me to decide, but I've already said I'm not a fan of that), of course, we could reconsider if further invuln frames on mesmer are necessary.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695