Updated balance suggestions for Mesmer for 4. Oct patch and after

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Probably not, with alac I can already shatter as much as I want anyway.

I'll experiment a lot with chaos: the reason I'm currently running inspiration is because traited Signet of Midnight is the only real answer when someone condi bombs you -and of course, 1s distortion opens up skillful interactions-, but the amount of resustain I get is frankly excessive. Besides that, the build as a whole feels definitely sluggish when it comes to moving around the map. It's effective, but it's not that fun; you can be focused down, and you have no answer to people outrotating you.

With distort baseline I'll get my cleanse from Auspicious Anguish, so I'll take that, trait Blink and roam around, sacrificing the resustain for funnier zoomies. Maybe I'll even take Illusion of Life for some fun teamplay shenanigans. The core of the build will not change, but it'll open up a lot of new playstyles.

That being said, there's another thing to consider when patch drops.

I was in favor of Blurred Inscriptions providing distortion, since it was the only source of invuln on the already dog-tier chronomancer. Now that distortion is baseline on all mesmer specs (if that's healthy or not it's not up for me to decide, but I've already said I'm not a fan of that), of course, we could reconsider if further invuln frames on mesmer are necessary.

Yeah Im also interested in chaos

[Yoci.2481]

Mesmer, and I mean basically core Mesmer needs more mobility. In WvW roaming everything that doesn't want to fight you just zooms away. Some of the EoD specs have insane mobility. Meanwhile Mesmer has one single blink on a medium length cool down. The only Mesmer build with decent mobility is Mirage, and that's only with sword ambush and Blurred Inscriptions. Core Mesmer and Chronomancer are probably the slowest moving specs in the game.

 

I believe the least they could do is add a teleport to greatword 3, un-nerf Chaos superspeed and add swiftness to something you would actually take for roaming. Perhaps also add 25% movement speed to one of the signets that are actually used so every single non-Chronomancer power build isn't stuck with Firework runes.

 

Also re-work the mess that is the core traits but that's a different story.

[JazzXman.7018]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:40 AM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Now, not that I would care since chronomancer is already way worse than playing as a moa so there's not much room to make it any worse than it already is, but can you kindly stop giving dumb ideas to devs?

sry but you blame the wrong person for that "dumb" idea, since i wasnt the one claiming, that a 17% additional value from a second clone on one skill  is neglegtable in terms of balance.  ofc a 17% difference is not neglegtable in neither direction (buff/nerf). and i would not seriously suggest a nerf of 17%+  to it.

 

not to mention that the claim that the second clone on mi only adds 17% more value is factually an incomplete view of the value of that skill as a whole. its only correct for mindwrack, while f2 and f4 dont have decreased value the more clones you shatter. for f3 the value of  a second clone is in most cases lower than for f1 (since daze doesnt stack in dura and the mi clones spawn with similar distance to the target, only the vulnstacks from domi add linear value, but clearly less than 17% on each additional daze).

 

then you have the harder to quantify type of value of having a second clone on the field in terms of enemy confusion, screen clutter but also body block defense etc. (harder or impossible to quantify also doesnt mean its a matter of pure taste/subjectivity btw).

 

roughly the value of the second clone on mi as a whole will be around 35-40%. and no one with sanity would call that a neglegtable difference in terms of balance (actually same for 17% but this makes it even more clear).

 

also pls dont tell me that my english was so bad that you thought it was a serious suggestion of me, to just delete the second clone without compensation? it was ofc only made to showcase how nonsensical the claim was, that 17% difference isnt a big deal. 

 

my only serious suggestions for mi were the casttime and making it blindable, while i disowned myself from the second suggestion. not bc of the claimed inconsistency (since mi is a very unique skill, the only one of his kind giving 2 clones on one skill wihtout a casttime and treatening something that is different differently in terms of balance isnt inconsistent).  

 

 

the casttime suggestion still stands for the reasons i mentioned in following quotes:

Quote

 

9. empiric researches measured an average human reaction time of 0,284 secs, which doesnt include searching the right button, doesnt include time span for an animation to be recognized, doesnt include decision making, doesnt include map awareness, other enemies you need to pay attention to etcetc. since the reasearch side "Human benschmark" and that agripastrilemma guy  only measured how long a human needs to click with his left mouse button on a screen that changes his colour at a random time. means the average  human reaction time ingame towards different possible animations (you are not actually waiting for while standing still) is for sure higher (thats why you usually say a delay/casttime of 0,5 is the absolute minimum of what can be considered reactive ingame).

 

 

does a simple tell as terrorhuz proposed which (depending on those results i had for mi) would only add a tell for 0,266-0,466 secs on volatile ai delays be enough to make mirror images reactive counterplayable, when the common sense is to have minimum 0,5 in real gw2 ingame situations? 

 

Quote

 

stealth aside you already have a delay in how you have to play the combo between gs2 and f1/mirror images + ofc the little delay of mi itself (which can even for both clones be under 0,5 secs as proven in my vid) . what i experienced ingame a lot while playing vs good player and not coming out of nowhere from stacked stealth: good player will well timed dodge your gs2 as it should be and then eat mi after. what is just a bad mechanic when players actually get punished for dodging the telegraphed part of the burst combo. then i can even burst twice after cs ends. so you have to eat gs2 on purpose to not double dodge gs2/f1 +mi delayed.

 

on the other side, if you make mi really instant on effect (what is not possible bc of programming anyway i guess), that then  means mi does also reward slow mesmers (slow in clicking the whole combo) and delaying mi hits by too slow skill cklicking, so they hit after the well timed dodge of gs2.

 

in both ways (with the currently too short delay and when rly being instant in hitting the dmg) mi just causes an unhealthy/unfair interaction with the opponent. rewarding either slow/bad mesmers or punishing good players who dodged gs2. give it a casttime so its not a mainly offensive used oneshot meme skill anymore. that is lit the only way out i see atm.

 

While i think finding out the best duration for the casttime needs ingame testing. But driving mi away from the mainly as oneshot burst wheelchair tool used skill is imo rly important to make it more healthy. it will not delete its general offensive value, only the burst combo value, so you have a more even out decision making between its offensive vs defensive uses.

Edited September 30, 2022 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

3 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

Mesmer, and I mean basically core Mesmer needs more mobility. In WvW roaming everything that doesn't want to fight you just zooms away. Some of the EoD specs have insane mobility. Meanwhile Mesmer has one single blink on a medium length cool down. The only Mesmer build with decent mobility is Mirage, and that's only with sword ambush and Blurred Inscriptions. Core Mesmer and Chronomancer are probably the slowest moving specs in the game.

 

I believe the least they could do is add a teleport to greatword 3, un-nerf Chaos superspeed and add swiftness to something you would actually take for roaming. Perhaps also add 25% movement speed to one of the signets that are actually used so every single non-Chronomancer power build isn't stuck with Firework runes.

 

Also re-work the mess that is the core traits but that's a different story.

yes agree about core mes needs some access to mobility. it lit the only thing that makes core less useful in conquest comapred to elites. chrono has movement speed in a minor trait and mirage has several skills added for mobility (not near the ridic amount came with eod but compared to core quite a lot). maybe we could add 25% movement speed to duelling line instead desperate decoy. 

[Yoci.2481]

Putting 25% movement speed in place of Desperate Decoy is not a bad idea. Desperate Decoy isn't is a trait with limited usefulness and unlike most Mesmer elite builds core builds actually can use Duelling without completely ruining the build.

 

I still believe a second teleport is justified, though. It shouldn't be a stun break but especially in WvW our lack of mobility/chase/disengage is hurting. Even core Necromancers run circles around us, not to mention stuff like Willbender etc.

 

A teleport on GS 3 would also force us to make a decision. Right now with its very short animation we use it pretty much on cool down and other than the self-root which can be stow cancelled there's no reason to not use it ever. Adding a teleport to it means you will be in melee range if you use it to damage your opponent. Which is something you may or may not want. You also may want to save it to get out of a sticky situation. Ads a little bit of thinking and counter play.

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

yes agree about core mes needs some access to mobility. it lit the only thing that makes core less useful in conquest comapred to elites. chrono has movement speed in a minor trait and mirage has several skills added for mobility (not near the ridic amount came with eod but compared to core quite a lot). maybe we could add 25% movement speed to duelling line instead desperate decoy. 

Im not convinced adding a 25% movement speed to a trait seems like a best solution if it removes or moves another trait arbitrarily. However, I do agree Mesmer could use better mobiliy. I just think it makes more sense to add it to another trait or as Yoci suggested just move to to a signet that is actually used in wvw. Im not so sure that would catch Mesmer up anyway. It seems like what is missing is access to SS or swiftness outside equiping focus or SoI. 

I think in general so many things have been nerfed for Core Mes to nerf/balance Mirage, Chrono and now virt without specifically nerfing them. That core has been left pretty weak.

That said, I have always sorta felt that its ok for Core specs to be weaker or less desirable than especs personally. Yet I must conceed, many f2p ranked players in the past argue against that premise. still, I still think its a mistake not let expac specs be better, but I am only one player. Honestly, I think core should be balanced to other core classes and especs should be stronger than core in some way that makes the new spec desirable, but core needs to be functional and decent enough that is still fun to use. I just dont think it needs to be as good. (ideally sure but its unrealistic to have new specs that are desirable to use but not better. What is the motive to use then? it gets tricky imo)

 

With that mindset, I would be inclined to suggest that for core to be strong and specs to have something unique of value that is compelling to use over core without making core suck in comparison, but in practice I think thats a seriously tall order and arguably not realistic. The problem becomes if you make the espec traits weak/uncompelling core will let you pack more usefull stuff into the 3 bars of traits. If core is equally strong to especs IMO than the strongest choice is to pick the 3 best lines of core. On top of that then situationally, each spec will be massively OP for some niche thing. Confusion on Mirage and phant generation on Chrono + CS fun messing w cooldowns, etc.

 

I guess ideally strictly from a game design concept the idea that core is balanced to especs and each espec has a niche use is a cool idea. That kind of design (from ground up) could allow a game (prob not gw2) to have core specs that are just as good as especs, but then I think each espec would only be good it its one clearly defined area, when its needed and core would be best when that niche strength isnt needed. However, TBH guild wars 2 is not designed that way and really never was outside the strange trade-offs attempt to change it all around without going ground up. (cause who wants to classes, no one asked for present classes to go away)

So, after considering those thoughts, I just really dont see a way to have core actually be equal to especs in any class. I think its a mistake to not focus balance on the especs and accept that core can be viable but not the best choice in most situations. Furthermore, I think that is healthy (at least monetarily) for the game to stay solvent because it encourages people to eventually buy some version of the game. As opposed to core being as strong which tbh seems to just encourage people to stay f2p forever as some do. (esp. in pvp/wvw)

If the premis is accepted that gw2 across the board core tends to be weaker than especs and that making all equal in benchmarks and usefulness doesn't make sense and arguably isnt possible w gw2. Then it seems like we should embrace epsecs being better but core being good enough to get by.

So like Mirage, and Chrono are due nice buffs. (dist. & dodge for instance)

Core is do damage and utility cooldown, etc balance (weapon mult, clone gen, condi app fix/restore), blink, mimic, etc cooldown fixes or the things that can be done without making big new issues with chrono, virt, mir.

Isnt Virt pretty solid as is? Its just proj only and annoying visual clutter on toon.

 

I am just thinking aloud, but I think core needs things restored and epescs too for Mesmer at this point. To give them acceptable utility and build options again for core and the epescs and chrono and Mir need to be consistent over the 3 game modes (no 1 dodge in two modes and 2 dodges in one mode crazyness) I think then it would be hard to complain much other than good old fav. class bias stuff lol. 😉

[Moradorin.6217]

On 9/29/2022 at 6:20 AM, Yoci.2481 said:

Mesmer, and I mean basically core Mesmer needs more mobility. In WvW roaming everything that doesn't want to fight you just zooms away. Some of the EoD specs have insane mobility. Meanwhile Mesmer has one single blink on a medium length cool down. The only Mesmer build with decent mobility is Mirage, and that's only with sword ambush and Blurred Inscriptions. Core Mesmer and Chronomancer are probably the slowest moving specs in the game.

 

I believe the least they could do is add a teleport to greatword 3, un-nerf Chaos superspeed and add swiftness to something you would actually take for roaming. Perhaps also add 25% movement speed to one of the signets that are actually used so every single non-Chronomancer power build isn't stuck with Firework runes.

 

Also re-work the mess that is the core traits but that's a different story.

I dont dislike the idea but it doesnt sound like a mobility solution for the class if its weapon specific because that then is build specific to power burst only which is an implicit bias against balance.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Mesmer is a bit of a mess. I'm not going to write a full on document but just put a few key pain points for the class.

1. Mesmer's defensive design of ignoring game mechanics is unhealthy for any game, especially mirage and at worst virtuoso.

2. Mesmer is too extreme and needs more balance. Mesmer builds are either full bunker or 1 shot memes. Mesmer should ideally be pulled back from extremes to promote more interactive gameplay.

3. Mesmer needs a solid identity outside of extremes. I think a good identity for mesmer is its disruptive capabilities along with its obscenely high visual and audio noise being the only class that not only attacks the character but the human behind the character as well.

[katte nici.9483]

On 10/2/2022 at 4:39 PM, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Mesmer is a bit of a mess. I'm not going to write a full on document but just put a few key pain points for the class.

1. Mesmer's defensive design of ignoring game mechanics is unhealthy for any game, especially mirage and at worst virtuoso.

2. Mesmer is too extreme and needs more balance. Mesmer builds are either full bunker or 1 shot memes. Mesmer should ideally be pulled back from extremes to promote more interactive gameplay.

3. Mesmer needs a solid identity outside of extremes. I think a good identity for mesmer is its disruptive capabilities along with its obscenely high visual and audio noise being the only class that not only attacks the character but the human behind the character as well.

What people call 1-shot builds in wvw aren't really  1-shot. They are use half my skills within a short time to do lots of damage builds. Often it doesn't even use stealth. It's a lot of damage but it is very predictable, highly telegraphed on a build without distortion (until next patch 😛), no stability and using its only getaway skill (Blink) offensively.

 

Also celestial vs. celestial fights are super boring and cringe!

[Moradorin.6217]

On 10/2/2022 at 7:39 AM, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Mesmer is a bit of a mess. I'm not going to write a full on document but just put a few key pain points for the class.

1. Mesmer's defensive design of ignoring game mechanics is unhealthy for any game, especially mirage and at worst virtuoso.

2. Mesmer is too extreme and needs more balance. Mesmer builds are either full bunker or 1 shot memes. Mesmer should ideally be pulled back from extremes to promote more interactive gameplay.

3. Mesmer needs a solid identity outside of extremes. I think a good identity for mesmer is its disruptive capabilities along with its obscenely high visual and audio noise being the only class that not only attacks the character but the human behind the character as well.

Honestly, lots of classes and specs have allot of visual clutter and even targeting clutter. Thief has its elite that pops out 2 extra targets that chase and deal damage, mech has a giant green thing, ranger - pets, spirits, ren has all the spirits they can spam out that make clutter, scourge has F1 locational spam + wells, etc, etc.

The game is full of visual and targeting clutter and its not unique to mesmer but I know when you look only at Mesmer with that bias critcal eye it can seem like it is. Mesmer is maybe the most capable of dishing out a barrage of extra targets like chrono cranking out phants+ clones or Mir but that doesnt make it the only class that adds targeting and viewing issues by any means.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 9/29/2022 at 6:38 PM, JazzXman.7018 said:

sry but you blame the wrong person for that "dumb" idea, since i wasnt the one claiming, that a 17% additional value from a second clone on one skill  is neglegtable in terms of balance.  ofc a 17% difference is not neglegtable in neither direction (buff/nerf). and i would not seriously suggest a nerf of 17%+  to it.

 

not to mention that the claim that the second clone on mi only adds 17% more value is factually an incomplete view of the value of that skill as a whole. its only correct for mindwrack, while f2 and f4 dont have decreased value the more clones you shatter. for f3 the value of  a second clone is in most cases lower than for f1 (since daze doesnt stack in dura and the mi clones spawn with similar distance to the target, only the vulnstacks from domi add linear value, but clearly less than 17% on each additional daze).

 

then you have the harder to quantify type of value of having a second clone on the field in terms of enemy confusion, screen clutter but also body block defense etc. (harder or impossible to quantify also doesnt mean its a matter of pure taste/subjectivity btw).

 

roughly the value of the second clone on mi as a whole will be around 35-40%. and no one with sanity would call that a neglegtable difference in terms of balance (actually same for 17% but this makes it even more clear).

 

also pls dont tell me that my english was so bad that you thought it was a serious suggestion of me, to just delete the second clone without compensation? it was ofc only made to showcase how nonsensical the claim was, that 17% difference isnt a big deal. 

 

my only serious suggestions for mi were the casttime and making it blindable, while i disowned myself from the second suggestion. not bc of the claimed inconsistency (since mi is a very unique skill, the only one of his kind giving 2 clones on one skill wihtout a casttime and treatening something that is different differently in terms of balance isnt inconsistent).  

 

 

the casttime suggestion still stands for the reasons i mentioned in following quotes:

While i think finding out the best duration for the casttime needs ingame testing. But driving mi away from the mainly as oneshot burst wheelchair tool used skill is imo rly important to make it more healthy. it will not delete its general offensive value, only the burst combo value, so you have a more even out decision making between its offensive vs defensive uses.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that you can dodge MI + MW on reaction?

Edited October 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[zealex.9410]

On 9/19/2022 at 4:05 AM, Junkpile.7439 said:

This is why i try to avoid one shotting thiefs (one shotted one yesterday). They come forums and try to get me nerffed. 😎

Clearly you have no idea who you are talking about.

[Jables.4659]

On 9/19/2022 at 7:44 AM, Yoci.2481 said:

I see what you want to do with these changes and in principal I agree with them

in order for many of these changes to make sense we need to bring down a lot of other classes first.

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read through the list. 

[JazzXman.7018]

On 10/1/2022 at 8:45 PM, Moradorin.6217 said:

Im not convinced adding a 25% movement speed to a trait seems like a best solution if it removes or moves another trait arbitrarily. However, I do agree Mesmer could use better mobiliy. I just think it makes more sense to add it to another trait or as Yoci suggested just move to to a signet that is actually used in wvw. Im not so sure that would catch Mesmer up anyway. It seems like what is missing is access to SS or swiftness outside equiping focus or SoI. 

I think in general so many things have been nerfed for Core Mes to nerf/balance Mirage, Chrono and now virt without specifically nerfing them. That core has been left pretty weak.

That said, I have always sorta felt that its ok for Core specs to be weaker or less desirable than especs personally. Yet I must conceed, many f2p ranked players in the past argue against that premise. still, I still think its a mistake not let expac specs be better, but I am only one player. Honestly, I think core should be balanced to other core classes and especs should be stronger than core in some way that makes the new spec desirable, but core needs to be functional and decent enough that is still fun to use. I just dont think it needs to be as good. (ideally sure but its unrealistic to have new specs that are desirable to use but not better. What is the motive to use then? it gets tricky imo)

 

With that mindset, I would be inclined to suggest that for core to be strong and specs to have something unique of value that is compelling to use over core without making core suck in comparison, but in practice I think thats a seriously tall order and arguably not realistic. The problem becomes if you make the espec traits weak/uncompelling core will let you pack more usefull stuff into the 3 bars of traits. If core is equally strong to especs IMO than the strongest choice is to pick the 3 best lines of core. On top of that then situationally, each spec will be massively OP for some niche thing. Confusion on Mirage and phant generation on Chrono + CS fun messing w cooldowns, etc.

 

I guess ideally strictly from a game design concept the idea that core is balanced to especs and each espec has a niche use is a cool idea. That kind of design (from ground up) could allow a game (prob not gw2) to have core specs that are just as good as especs, but then I think each espec would only be good it its one clearly defined area, when its needed and core would be best when that niche strength isnt needed. However, TBH guild wars 2 is not designed that way and really never was outside the strange trade-offs attempt to change it all around without going ground up. (cause who wants to classes, no one asked for present classes to go away)

So, after considering those thoughts, I just really dont see a way to have core actually be equal to especs in any class. I think its a mistake to not focus balance on the especs and accept that core can be viable but not the best choice in most situations. Furthermore, I think that is healthy (at least monetarily) for the game to stay solvent because it encourages people to eventually buy some version of the game. As opposed to core being as strong which tbh seems to just encourage people to stay f2p forever as some do. (esp. in pvp/wvw)

If the premis is accepted that gw2 across the board core tends to be weaker than especs and that making all equal in benchmarks and usefulness doesn't make sense and arguably isnt possible w gw2. Then it seems like we should embrace epsecs being better but core being good enough to get by.

So like Mirage, and Chrono are due nice buffs. (dist. & dodge for instance)

Core is do damage and utility cooldown, etc balance (weapon mult, clone gen, condi app fix/restore), blink, mimic, etc cooldown fixes or the things that can be done without making big new issues with chrono, virt, mir.

Isnt Virt pretty solid as is? Its just proj only and annoying visual clutter on toon.

 

I am just thinking aloud, but I think core needs things restored and epescs too for Mesmer at this point. To give them acceptable utility and build options again for core and the epescs and chrono and Mir need to be consistent over the 3 game modes (no 1 dodge in two modes and 2 dodges in one mode crazyness) I think then it would be hard to complain much other than good old fav. class bias stuff lol. 😉

hi sry for late answer, bit busy atm.

it was just an idea of the first second thinking about it. desperate decoy isnt rly used for several reasons, so i dont rly see any problem to replace it atm. it could also be a x secs swiftness on weaponswap (also out of combat) or whatever. 

 

and yes i also would not mind to give up the idea that core needs to be able to compete with elites. its fine to have one step of vertical progression. at least as long as the mechanical changes in elites come with higher skill ceiling/cap as a trade off. lot of elites already do that by adding mechanical complexitiy and tactical deepness, but not all.

 

On 9/30/2022 at 11:47 AM, Yoci.2481 said:

Putting 25% movement speed in place of Desperate Decoy is not a bad idea. Desperate Decoy isn't is a trait with limited usefulness and unlike most Mesmer elite builds core builds actually can use Duelling without completely ruining the build.

 

I still believe a second teleport is justified, though. It shouldn't be a stun break but especially in WvW our lack of mobility/chase/disengage is hurting. Even core Necromancers run circles around us, not to mention stuff like Willbender etc.

 

A teleport on GS 3 would also force us to make a decision. Right now with its very short animation we use it pretty much on cool down and other than the self-root which can be stow cancelled there's no reason to not use it ever. Adding a teleport to it means you will be in melee range if you use it to damage your opponent. Which is something you may or may not want. You also may want to save it to get out of a sticky situation. Ads a little bit of thinking and counter play.

not that i personally would not love to have a teleport on gs  but it might push gs a bit too much. could be tested before permanently adding the feature tho. but as moradorin mentioned, it only adds mobility for power mes not for condimes. so i think traits or utilities are a better solution over all.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 3:02 AM, Jables.4659 said:

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read through the list. 

and you and yoci are right thinking that. its also exactly what i was mentioning in the suggestions document right in the start^^

[Moradorin.6217]

5 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

hi sry for late answer, bit busy atm.

it was just an idea of the first second thinking about it. desperate decoy isnt rly used for several reasons, so i dont rly see any problem to replace it atm. it could also be a x secs swiftness on weaponswap (also out of combat) or whatever. 

 

and yes i also would not mind to give up the idea that core needs to be able to compete with elites. its fine to have one step of vertical progression. at least as long as the mechanical changes in elites come with higher skill ceiling/cap as a trade off. lot of elites already do that by adding mechanical complexitiy and tactical deepness, but not all.

 

not that i personally would not love to have a teleport on gs  but it might push gs a bit too much. could be tested before permanently adding the feature tho. but as moradorin mentioned, it only adds mobility for power mes not for condimes. so i think traits or utilities are a better solution over all.

 

and you and yoci are right thinking that. its also exactly what i was mentioning in the suggestions document right in the start^^

Yea agreed. Also I was thinking of a diferentf trait initially when I responded. I havnt really played Mesmer outside a few set builds I still use for certain raid encounters in the last few years, so Im prone to miss read names of things. ( I stopped playing Mes early 2021) Its a minor trait and arguably not useful outside a desperate last clone generation lol and stealth that is too brief to save anyone from anything. 😉 So I dont see any harm is considering it for replacement. Its probably one of the best candidates in Dueling. Ty for the response.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:47 AM, Yoci.2481 said:

Putting 25% movement speed in place of Desperate Decoy is not a bad idea. Desperate Decoy isn't is a trait with limited usefulness and unlike most Mesmer elite builds core builds actually can use Duelling without completely ruining the build.

 

I still believe a second teleport is justified, though. It shouldn't be a stun break but especially in WvW our lack of mobility/chase/disengage is hurting. Even core Necromancers run circles around us, not to mention stuff like Willbender etc.

 

A teleport on GS 3 would also force us to make a decision. Right now with its very short animation we use it pretty much on cool down and other than the self-root which can be stow cancelled there's no reason to not use it ever. Adding a teleport to it means you will be in melee range if you use it to damage your opponent. Which is something you may or may not want. You also may want to save it to get out of a sticky situation. Ads a little bit of thinking and counter play.

I found a better way to help give Mirage a 25% movement speed change that would be nice. How about change blink to be like the Mechanist Shift Signet?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shift_Signet

Its just like Blink but better. [Granted they upgraded Blink on Aug.23rd:  (PvE only) Recharge reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds. ]

But lets compare LOL

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink

Blink Range is 1200 teleport self; has stun break function

Shift Signet Range is 1200 teleport self; has stun break function + remove 2 condi and 25% to movement speed as signet when not used. LOL poor Mesmer.

[godfat.2604]

I would prefer they nerf Shift Signet instead. That’s the most overloaded skill with 5 effects in one skill, making no sense to exist. Blink is not a bad skill to begin with either.

What about we buff Signet of Inspiration that it’ll always grant 10 seconds of swiftness as base line, up from 5 seconds? This way as long as it’s not used, we can maintain swiftness with 0 boon duration. The activation effect should be buffed as well, but that’s a separate topic.

[katte nici.9483]

Signet of inspiration is a weak ability for roaming, where you would need the speed. It's not even used on Inspiration builds where the low cd miiiight be interesting.

[rune.9572]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:20 PM, Yoci.2481 said:

so every single non-Chronomancer power build isn't stuck with Firework runes.

lmao this hits home

[Waffles.5632]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:12 AM, godfat.2604 said:

I would prefer they nerf Shift Signet instead. That’s the most overloaded skill with 5 effects in one skill, making no sense to exist. Blink is not a bad skill to begin with either.

What about we buff Signet of Inspiration that it’ll always grant 10 seconds of swiftness as base line, up from 5 seconds? This way as long as it’s not used, we can maintain swiftness with 0 boon duration. The activation effect should be buffed as well, but that’s a separate topic.

My god yes nerf shift signet already please.

As for inspiration buff idk kuz, well I can only speak for me, but I just don't see that ability used any much by any mesmer anymore unless it's pve. I could be wrong though! I just personally think it wouldn't solve the issue.

 

my 2c is giving 25% bonus to the Mirage trait speed of sand, but that only solves the issue for Mirages.

If core needs it I would rather it replace Sharper Images from dueling, then you can replace Desperate Decoy with sharper images (so condi doesn't lose dps)  or even combine sharper images into phantasmal fury (so now clones both spawn with fury and proc bleeds on crits)

Also the simplest thing would probably be for Anet to just not change anything and instead tack on 25% bonus movement speed somewhere on one of the core traits in which case I'd rather it be a default one instead of any we have to choose. It easily fits the "theme" of the Master Fencer trait for instance in that Fencers are nimble and light on their feet or whatever.

 

I am so glad I am not the only one who thinks this though. I have been wanting a 25% bonus movement speed buff ever since I started pvping so I can finally get out of using kitten lynx runes.

[godfat.2604]

7 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

As for inspiration buff idk kuz, well I can only speak for me, but I just don't see that ability used any much by any mesmer anymore unless it's pve. I could be wrong though! I just personally think it wouldn't solve the issue.

I agree it doesn’t solve the issue by itself, that’s why I also mentioned that the activation effect will need to be looked at, too. It’s a useless skill in its current state anyway… Just a random idea. What about copy all boons from nearby foes to allies, including self? We need to take some inspiration!

7 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Also the simplest thing would probably be for Anet to just not change anything and instead tack on 25% bonus movement speed somewhere on one of the core traits in which case I'd rather it be a default one instead of any we have to choose

I won’t refuse to this offer, but given none core traits have this as far as I know, I won’t try to ask for it. Honestly I really prefer to have better swiftness access. More skills or traits should grant swiftness would be what I want to ask for, in additional to Signet of Inspiration change.

[Waffles.5632]

5 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

I agree it doesn’t solve the issue by itself, that’s why I also mentioned that the activation effect will need to be looked at, too. It’s a useless skill in its current state anyway… Just a random idea. What about copy all boons from nearby foes to allies, including self? We need to take some inspiration!

I won’t refuse to this offer, but given none core traits have this as far as I know, I won’t try to ask for it. Honestly I really prefer to have better swiftness access. More skills or traits should grant swiftness would be what I want to ask for, in additional to Signet of Inspiration change.

hahah I like those ideas! I wouldn't be opposed to getting more swiftness either. Passive bonuses like the movespeed are great but I'd much prefer an active swiftness application like maybe how Rev's get or something to that effect.

It's always tricky because I feel Anet is like a Monkey's Paw, they'll give us what we ask for, but with their own twist on it, which usually ends up not being what we asked for LOL.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 10/1/2022 at 8:45 PM, Moradorin.6217 said:

Im not convinced adding a 25% movement speed to a trait seems like a best solution if it removes or moves another trait arbitrarily. However, I do agree Mesmer could use better mobiliy. I just think it makes more sense to add it to another trait or as Yoci suggested just move to to a signet that is actually used in wvw. Im not so sure that would catch Mesmer up anyway. It seems like what is missing is access to SS or swiftness outside equiping focus or SoI.

What about replacing the guaranteed 5s Swiftness every 10s on SoI by a +25% Speed ?

[Leonidrex.5649]

Lets suggest more nerfs, surely the devs will make the class decent. Just one more nerf.
Copium.

[Josiah.2967]

I just want them to undo the nerf to Chrono clones before the expansion. With the new shift...that nerf did the opposite of the current direction and will make Chrono a true competitor for PVE end game.

 

Also...remember Reaper exists.