Updated balance suggestions for Mesmer for 4. Oct patch and after

[JazzXman.7018]

hi!

im sry that i didnt react to the last posts anymore. i adopted a romanian puppy from an european animal protection organisation and he needs a lot of attention and love right now. so im taking a break from the game atm.

also the latest balance moves make clear again, that balance in this game is kinda doomed, esp when it comes to mesmer. reducing base cs duration was a pretty bad change for example and i dont think, it makes sense to invest time for balance suggestions for devs who seems to dislike the class, seems to not understand the class and seems to work based on a low effort balance changes- and low skill requirement doctrine.

 

im also very afraid that they will completely ruin mirage with all the stuff they will adjust when giving the second dodge back, they will forget that they already nerfed it out of meta BEFORE deleting the dodge (for example vigor nerfs in mirage and duelling line) and they will forget, that they also deleted some of the problematic stuff that made condi mirage (but also in general mesmer) oppressive (= mostly inspi and chaosline, passive condi dmg spam on clones autoattack etc), so one good change like old CI deletion happend already BEFORE the dodge deletion for example. I guess they will punish mirage way harder with nerfs, but even worse with bad mechanical reworks than vidicator, even tho vindi was by basic mechanics designed around one dodge and didnt get pre-nerfed years ago already. While they will nerf/ rework once again around the real problems of the mirage mechanic itself.

 

my balance suggestions always follow the overall goal to make the game (here in this thread in particular mesmer) highly skillful and challenging to play while keeping mesmer at least semi viable with good active and skill-intense but fair and counterplayable outplay options. neither high skill ceiling/cap nor an at least semi viable mesmer class  seems to be something devs want in the game. and as long as i have that impression i will not waste my free time to give devs ideas of what not to do, to keep the game in a low skill requirement state (in case they even read them, what is also doubtable).

 

but i promised to rework the document in the few parts where some of your arguments could change my mind (for example not asking for blindable Mirror Images anymore, while still asking for a casttime).  and i stand for my words. so you find the new link to the reworked doc in the end of this post and in the first post of this thread.

 

thanks to all the ppl with constructive posts. your opinions, additions and also your constructive disagreements, it was nice, informative and instructive to discuss with you. ❤️

 

thanks also to the more destructive participants, luckily not that many. i hope the next time you can join (not only my threads but in general) more constructive and positive even when disagreeing to suggestions. that will help to keep threads shorter and the discussion focused on the topic and not focused on disputes and subjective blames. 

i wish you all a happy new year! stay healthy!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hI5r9mpx94DJEj2LoZzc0Knicqk5SLmC/view?usp=sharing

Edited January 2, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[Leonidrex.5649]

16 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

hi!

im sry that i didnt react to the last posts anymore. i adopted a romanian puppy from an european animal protection organisation and he needs a lot of attention and love right now. so im taking a break from the game atm.

also the latest balance moves make clear again, that balance in this game is kinda doomed, esp when it comes to mesmer. reducing base cs duration was a pretty bad change for example and i dont think, it makes sense to invest time for balance suggestions for devs who seems to dislike the class, seems to not understand the class and seems to work based on a low effort balance changes- and low skill requirement doctrine.

 

im also very afraid that they will completely ruin mirage with all the stuff they will adjust when giving the second dodge back, they will forget that they already nerfed it out of meta BEFORE deleting the dodge (for example vigor nerfs in mirage and duelling line) and they will forget, that they also deleted some of the problematic stuff that made condi mirage (but also in general mesmer) oppressive (= mostly inspi and chaosline, passive condi dmg spam on clones autoattack etc), so one good change like old CI deletion happend already BEFORE the dodge deletion for example. I guess they will punish mirage way harder with nerfs, but even worse with bad mechanical reworks than vidicator, even tho vindi was by basic mechanics designed around one dodge and didnt get pre-nerfed years ago already. While they will nerf/ rework once again around the real problems of the mirage mechnaic itself.

 

my balance suggestions always follow the overall goal to make the game (here in this thread in particular mesmer) highly skillful and challenging to play while keeping mesmer at least semi viable with good active and skill-intense but fair and counterplayable outplay options. neither high skill ceiling/cap nor an at least semi viable mesmer class  seems to be something devs want in the game. and as long as i have that impression i will not waste my free time to give devs ideas of what not to do, to keep the game in a low skill requirement state (in case they even read them, what is also doubtable).

 

but i promised to rework the document in the few parts where some of your arguments could change my mind (for example not asking for blindable Mirror Images anymore, while still asking for a casttime).  and i stand for my words. so you find the new link to the reworked doc in the end of this post and in the first post of this thread.

 

thanks to all the ppl with constructive posts. your opinions, additions and also your constructive disagreements, it was nice, informative and instructive to discuss with you. ❤️

 

thanks also to the more destructive participants, luckily not that many. i hope the next time you can join (not only my threads but in general) more constructive and positive even when disagreeing to suggestions. that will help to keep threads shorter and the discussion focused on the topic and not focused on disputes and subjective blames. 

i wish you all a happy new year! stay healthy!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hI5r9mpx94DJEj2LoZzc0Knicqk5SLmC/view?usp=sharing

if your changes were to get implemented im fairly sure mesmer would be so tragically dog kitten every other class would be better with 2 traitlines then mesmer with 3.
Also superiority complex works as intented, it is by far the strongest trait in the entire game, it doesnt give 25% crit damage.
It makes the crits do 25% MORE damage. Its working as intended to my knowledge.
Example you have 250% crit dmg. adding 25% crit dmg would push it to 275% which would mean 10% dmg increase, but sup complex is a 25% dmg increase instead, its hella underrated, I always use it on power mesmer.

[Varis.5467]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

if your changes were to get implemented im fairly sure mesmer would be so tragically dog kitten every other class would be better with 2 traitlines then mesmer with 3.

Agreed, a lot of the suggested changes seem unnecessarily self-defeating and harsh to the user, especially in the current ecosystem of gw2. 

 

The combat of GW2 is quick paced, and more so in the context of PvP/WvW. A lot of the suggestions to introduce cast time would just achieve nothing but to offer advantage to our opponents. At that point our class may as well just be a player-piloted PvE target - our telegraph would definitely justify the role and title. (Increasing the chances to nullify pistol 5 as an interrupt skill, and the only utility of the offhand, really? Have we learned nothing from the notorious f3 of Virtuoso?) 

 

A lot of the 'issues' listed as justifications in OP's doc are also present in the kits of other classes and in some cases more potent too (e.g. why is stealth more acceptable then target breaking?). 

 

Also a few of the points in the document are outdated and addressing functions/traits that are no longer in the game. 

[JazzXman.7018]

6 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

if your changes were to get implemented im fairly sure mesmer would be so tragically dog kitten every other class would be better with 2 traitlines then mesmer with 3.
Also superiority complex works as intented, it is by far the strongest trait in the entire game, it doesnt give 25% crit damage.
It makes the crits do 25% MORE damage. Its working as intended to my knowledge.
Example you have 250% crit dmg. adding 25% crit dmg would push it to 275% which would mean 10% dmg increase, but sup complex is a 25% dmg increase instead, its hella underrated, I always use it on power mesmer.

hi leo, glad to see you still around.

 

yes i know sup-complex is generally a strong trait but it also leads to a higher variation in crit spikes, means higher randomness what isnt rly good for the game. im not sure if such high variations are intended or not, thats why i said its either broken/ op or bugged (also bugged is prob the wrong word, since its mathematically unavoidable).

 

and yes as i said directly in the intro of the doc:

the suggestions show how mesmer should be imo, but ofc in the context of how the whole game should be, so lot of changes are good to implement in terms of higher skill ceiling/cap and more healthy, fair counterplayability against mesmer but ofc other classes need to be balanced under the same rules too. but since im mes main and dont have that much free time (also already before the dog adoption) to do it for all classes i just show my view of how it should be for mesmer. so the context in which the doc is meant is important.

 

i personally dont see much value in giving balance suggestion about how to make mesmer viable under such broken and braindead game state as it currently is overall. since i dont want mesmer to be that easy and boring to play. and if i would have the time, i would make such a doc for all classes and you can be sure other classes would see even more nerfs/ reworks from me. since my suggestions deal with the question how all classes/ the game as a whole should be designed to have maximum skill requirement. i would be much more of a multiclass-player than i am now (also i play almost all classes, but get bored pretty fast by most builds, since winning by build carry doesnt give me satisfaction). 

 

@Varis.5467 if i remember right there is only one suggestion that is adding a casttime and one that is increasing a casttime a bit (saying A LOT OF suggestions is a bit exaggerating here).  for the self-defeating part i answered that to leonidrex already (see just above). could you please list the sugggestions you think are not up to date anymore duo to balance changes? i can recheck them then.  the origin doc is a bit older, maybe i overlooked something when updating it. 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[AshkyLicious.4729]

On 1/1/2023 at 12:46 PM, JazzXman.7018 said:

hi!

im sry that i didnt react to the last posts anymore. i adopted a romanian puppy from an european animal protection organisation and he needs a lot of attention and love right now. so im taking a break from the game atm.

also the latest balance moves make clear again, that balance in this game is kinda doomed, esp when it comes to mesmer. reducing base cs duration was a pretty bad change for example and i dont think, it makes sense to invest time for balance suggestions for devs who seems to dislike the class, seems to not understand the class and seems to work based on a low effort balance changes- and low skill requirement doctrine.

 

im also very afraid that they will completely ruin mirage with all the stuff they will adjust when giving the second dodge back, they will forget that they already nerfed it out of meta BEFORE deleting the dodge (for example vigor nerfs in mirage and duelling line) and they will forget, that they also deleted some of the problematic stuff that made condi mirage (but also in general mesmer) oppressive (= mostly inspi and chaosline, passive condi dmg spam on clones autoattack etc), so one good change like old CI deletion happend already BEFORE the dodge deletion for example. I guess they will punish mirage way harder with nerfs, but even worse with bad mechanical reworks than vidicator, even tho vindi was by basic mechanics designed around one dodge and didnt get pre-nerfed years ago already. While they will nerf/ rework once again around the real problems of the mirage mechnaic itself.

 

my balance suggestions always follow the overall goal to make the game (here in this thread in particular mesmer) highly skillful and challenging to play while keeping mesmer at least semi viable with good active and skill-intense but fair and counterplayable outplay options. neither high skill ceiling/cap nor an at least semi viable mesmer class  seems to be something devs want in the game. and as long as i have that impression i will not waste my free time to give devs ideas of what not to do, to keep the game in a low skill requirement state (in case they even read them, what is also doubtable).

 

but i promised to rework the document in the few parts where some of your arguments could change my mind (for example not asking for blindable Mirror Images anymore, while still asking for a casttime).  and i stand for my words. so you find the new link to the reworked doc in the end of this post and in the first post of this thread.

 

thanks to all the ppl with constructive posts. your opinions, additions and also your constructive disagreements, it was nice, informative and instructive to discuss with you. ❤️

 

thanks also to the more destructive participants, luckily not that many. i hope the next time you can join (not only my threads but in general) more constructive and positive even when disagreeing to suggestions. that will help to keep threads shorter and the discussion focused on the topic and not focused on disputes and subjective blames. 

i wish you all a happy new year! stay healthy!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hI5r9mpx94DJEj2LoZzc0Knicqk5SLmC/view?usp=sharing

Im sorry but as a only mesmer player, I cant stand behind the changes your document suggests at all... Our class is already a piano high skill ceiling class as it is. These changes would just make this class overly obnoxious in every sense, and not worth playing. And for me atleast that would make gw2 a dead game, since Im not about the other classes anyways. So I actually hope that Anet doesnt implement these changes.

Thanks for putting energy in the document though, I know that's not easy. But we disagree on lots of stuff unfortunately!

Edited January 2, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[JazzXman.7018]

Just now, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Im sorry but I as a mesmer mainer cant stand behind the changes your documenynt suggests at all... Our class is already a piano high skill ceiling class as it is. These changes would just make this class overly obnoxious in every sense, not worth playing. And for me atleast that would make gw2 a dead game, since Im npt about the other classes anyways. So I actually hope that Anet doesnt implement these changes.

Thanks for putting energy in the document though, I know that's not easy. But we disagree on lots of stuff unfortunately!

hey no worries, its totally fine for me that you disagree and i get/ understand your reasons. 

[JazzXman.7018]

3 hours ago, Varis.5467 said:

(Increasing the chances to nullify pistol 5 as an interrupt skill, and the only utility of the offhand, really? Have we learned nothing from the notorious f3 of Virtuoso?) 

i comepletely forgot to answer to that part.

 

Now we come to basic understanding of game mechanics. and its a bit shocking tbh, that ppl still dont understand that simple piece of logic esp since lot of ppl explained it a lot of times already.

i mean yes, you are dead sure right in terms of interrupt focused skills should and need to be instant in gw2 combat system.

 

BUT: a 2 second stun is not an interrupt focused skill. Its a lock down skill with the main purpose to lock down the target to hit follow up dmg. hard cc like stun, knockdown etc should never be instant. they delete all basic defense aka casting, dodging and movement at same time. the only counter is a stunbreak. a short daze can be instant (short!!! max 1 sec counts as short imo, thats why virtu f3 is not instant. the bad thing is, that anet made virtu f3 a longer daze and not a hard cc like a pull, what would have way better synergy to f1). Short dazes can be instant since they only delete one basic defensive mechanic (casting) but not movement and dodging and are with that way weaker in their impact on simple hit.

 

another reason:

a short daze mostly only rly has big impact/ value when interrupting keyskills in keymoments (getting interupted on keyskills in keymoments has at least 10 ways of counterplay). the short daze itself doesnt do that much (except in extrem situations ofc) and doesnt need to be reactive counterplayable by itself and for that can be instant.

 

so a way lower on simple hit value and additional requirements for high impact (interrupting)/additional counterplay  (to compensate for the fact that instant skills cant be reactively avoided) allowes for instant applications. a stun is way to strong on simple hit to be instant. not to mention a 2 secs stun on a burst class (that even has oneshot potential, what it shouldnt have by the way).

 

 

to your question why retargeting should go on axe 3, illu ambush and mirror images:

retargeting on most skills also come with random position changes (axe3, illu ambush) which makes enemy positioning less predictable than stealthed movement. randomness is never rly good for a reactive combat system and should be reduced to a minimum. while mirror images is a core skill and never needed to be buffed with that mirage specific mechanic. for the same reasons it never had stealth added since compared to decoy with a 2 clone generation the skills nature is by far more offensive and becomes too strong overall as instant 2 clone gen skill with defensive retargeting. the only compromise i would maybe agree to here, is to start with only one thing (either adding a casttime or deleting retargeting and see if this is enough and not do both right in the start. in that case i would add a casttime over deleting retargeting, since in case of mirror images retargeting at least doesnt include random teleports)

Edited January 2, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

hi leo, glad to see you still around.

 

yes i know sup-complex is generally a strong trait but it also leads to a higher variation in crit spikes, means higher randomness what isnt rly good for the game. im not sure if such high variations are intended or not, thats why i said its either broken/ op or bugged (also bugged is prob the wrong word, since its mathematically unavoidable).

 

and yes as i said directly in the intro of the doc:

the suggestions show how mesmer should be imo, but ofc in the context of how the whole game should be, so lot of changes are good to implement in terms of higher skill ceiling/cap and more healthy, fair counterplayability against mesmer but ofc other classes need to be balanced under the same rules too. but since im mes main and dont have that much free time (also already before the dog adoption) to do it for all classes i just show my view of how it should be for mesmer. so the context in which the doc is meant is important.

 

i personally dont see much value in giving balance suggestion about how to make mesmer viable under such broken and braindead game state as it currently is overall. since i dont want mesmer to be that easy and boring to play. and if i would have the time, i would make such a doc for all classes and you can be sure other classes would see even more nerfs/ reworks from me. since my suggestions deal with the question how all classes/ the game as a whole should be designed to have maximum skill requirement. i would be much more of a multiclass-player than i am now (also i play almost all classes, but get bored pretty fast by most builds, since winning by build carry doesnt give me satisfaction). 

 

@Varis.5467 if i remember right there is only one suggestion that is adding a casttime and one that is increasing a casttime a bit (saying A LOT OF suggestions is a bit exaggerating here).  for the self-defeating part i answered that to leonidrex already (see just above). could you please list the sugggestions you think are not up to date anymore duo to balance changes? i can recheck them then.  the origin doc is a bit older, maybe i overlooked something when updating it. 

 

for what its worth I agree with some of the changes, but to implement them there would need to be heavy buffs in some other direction.
lets be real, pistol 5 is abnormally easy to land to the point of it being more or less free 2s stun. So when you look at this one skill alone it looks broken and it kind of is. But when you look at mesmer over all you realise w dont really have any long lasting CC so you can let this skill land on you every single time and just stunbreak every time and it does nothing since we lack other usable long CC.
Detarget on axe 3 should be gone simply since its annoying.
Illusionary ambush should be made more reliable somehow, I love the skill but after 1-2 games it does something so stupid I instantly stop using like teleporting me into blob of people or the most often grief, teleport in place, making it act as glorified dodge. It enables roaming on power mirage with sword, letting you do blink -> ambush engages followed by spikes which is really fun, but not very effective.
Ah and ye, sup complex is very feast and famine.
Its a huge 25% modifier with a lot of IFS to make it work.
1 it has to crit
2 it has to be cced or under 50%
3 it applies to mesmer only, so phantesm dont get bonus from it.
Personally I like running it with 3dps traitlines power mirage, and being able to do triple F1 with 100% crit rate is catching people off guard HARD.

EDIT
problem with suggesting all these nerfs is that we NEED heavy compensation, which lets be honest, will never happen.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Leonidrex.5649

[JazzXman.7018]

6 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

for what its worth I agree with some of the changes, but to implement them there would need to be heavy buffs in some other direction.
lets be real, pistol 5 is abnormally easy to land to the point of it being more or less free 2s stun. So when you look at this one skill alone it looks broken and it kind of is. But when you look at mesmer over all you realise w dont really have any long lasting CC so you can let this skill land on you every single time and just stunbreak every time and it does nothing since we lack other usable long CC.
Detarget on axe 3 should be gone simply since its annoying.
Illusionary ambush should be made more reliable somehow, I love the skill but after 1-2 games it does something so stupid I instantly stop using like teleporting me into blob of people or the most often grief, teleport in place, making it act as glorified dodge. It enables roaming on power mirage with sword, letting you do blink -> ambush engages followed by spikes which is really fun, but not very effective.
Ah and ye, sup complex is very feast and famine.
Its a huge 25% modifier with a lot of IFS to make it work.
1 it has to crit
2 it has to be cced or under 50%
3 it applies to mesmer only, so phantesm dont get bonus from it.
Personally I like running it with 3dps traitlines power mirage, and being able to do triple F1 with 100% crit rate is catching people off guard HARD.

EDIT
problem with suggesting all these nerfs is that we NEED heavy compensation, which lets be honest, will never happen.

nah, that is exactly my point: there is no need for buffs /compensations for mesmer, there is only need to treat with other classes the same way than with mesmer, to bring them down near the same power- and skill requirement lvl, also with only fair counterplayablility and a balanced amount of mostly active sustain/ resustain, to allow a few but not too many mistakes, while you need to actively recover from mistakes by good counterplay after getting pressured and not by just facetanking without bigger punishment and non-reactive offensive spam.

 

the whole game (incl mesmer,  even tho mesmer is sure on the lower end) is still heavily power creeped. that includes dmg, sustain/resustain, hard cc spam and also mobility. nothing in this game, rly nothing! needs any compensation-buffs atm. not compared to the highly skillful gamestate i have in mind. overall everything still needs nerfs. just some stuff needs less nerfs than others. and bigger nerfs to other classes will indirectly buff mesmer compared to them. 

 

to pistol 5:

the main pvp mode is conquest and you are not alone on the field as mesmer in that context. you stun a target for 2 secs with no counterplay and it gets focused to death by your teammates. stunbreaks need to be used for so many hard cc spam in this braindead spam game atm... such strong cc skills as a 2 secs stun needs reactive counterplay no matter what (even in pure duel scenarios). and the other point is that you cant justify a broken skill just by the fact that mesmer as a whole is not as overperforming as other classes atm. pistol 5 breaks a basic balance logic/rule and needs to be adressed. also tbh i play power portal mes without any longer lasting hard cc without any problems also vs top player, mesmers kit doesnt need long hard cc to get kills (at least way less than a warrior for example). mesmers main cc should be interrupt based not lock down based. 

 

detarget:

yes the randsom ports are also not good for the mesmer in some cases. randomness is in general bad for everyone, the opponents and the user of the random skill.

 

 

sup-complex:

the famine part depends, you easy get a high crit chance on power mes builds. but anyway i would prefer a trait that is way less potent in its spikes and randomness but for that more reliable in its activation and most of all more in the hand/ under control of the player (means more active). ofc some more passive orientated dmg multiplier need to be in the game but not that many (just lazy design) and for sure not that hard stackable and for sure less random spiky than sup-complex.

Edited January 2, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[katte nici.9483]

The whole rest of the game will not be balanced around Mesmer. That will not happen.

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, katte nici.9483 said:

The whole rest of the game will not be balanced around Mesmer. That will not happen.

huh? no one did ask for that tho

[Mell.4873]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:01 PM, Josiah.2967 said:

I just want them to undo the nerf to Chrono clones before the expansion. With the new shift...that nerf did the opposite of the current direction and will make Chrono a true competitor for PVE end game.

 

Also...remember Reaper exists.

I think they did but post EoD. 

[Seneca.6319]

I've read your document and I don't agree with most of the stuff you propose. I play mostly PVP and occasionally do some WvW but not as much. I played a lot of PvE on Mesmer so I can say that I have a pretty good understanding of the class and I pretty much know all the builds that are possible on it since I like to theorycraft every now and then. I'm going to speak mostly from the PVP perspective. I believe things are far worse for mesmers in WvW. You can pretty much roam with any build in WvW so we are not going to consider that for now since it's the same as PvP but with PvE gear.

 

Mesmer is a high skill class and quite squishy tbh. It gets very few boons passively in competitive play. Fury, vigor and occasionally might are the dominant ones. Then here and there you get some stability, regen, aegis etc. But nothing spammy and you actually have to make compromises to get those boons. Power Virtuoso, right now, is probably the single thing that I have played which can definitely face multiple classes and loses only to very few if you are skilled enough that is (stealth abuse thief, aura elementalist which can literally kill you just by spamming auras on itself or the cheesy hammer spellbreaker with defense traitline which may not kill you but you won't kill him either if tanky). Mirage is dead for me in PVP or WvW. 1 dodge and you have to get inspiration traitline to get more ambushes otherwise very weak. This is actually a shame because out of all the elite specs Mirage is my favorite one. Chronomancer, besides the fact that chrono bunker is back, is an underperforming spec. In WvW it's basically a boon removal spam bot. If it weren't for that it wouldn't even have a place in WvW group play because other specs can give alacrity in a much more reliable way than Chrono can. Also, playing Chronomancer is just not fun. Virtuoso has this really engaging way of fighting, Mirage has very cool tricks it can do but Chronomancer is just a stale spec with no identity.

 

I agree with one thing though, I would like inspiration traitline to be reworked but not nerfed. Right now, Inspiration is highly dependent on getting the Illusions traitline to have sustained heal from spamming shatters. Otherwise it has very little utility in competitive modes. I can summarize Inspiration in 2 words: "sub-mediocre heal". So for me, I'd like to see some boon application moved from other traitlines to Inspiration. I'd like to know that the reason I am investing an entire traitline and losing the damage modifiers is because I give out boons and help myself to sustain. Right now Mesmers have to take both traits (Inspiration & Illusions) to sustain themselves. I believe that is too much of a trade-off. Any other combination you try will just result in you being stomped for the entire game. Not fun.

 

Thanks for putting the energy to write this document, every suggestion is welcomed as it opens the door for discussions and other ideas flowing but in all honesty I am happy your changes were not implemented because they would have made mesmer a completely dead class. While far from being where it should be, a combination of thieves and spellcasters, basically a trickster per my understanding, it still is, thankfully, a viable option in PVE, PVP and WvW. 

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

@JazzXman.7018
there are ways of making sup reliable, I used to run something like this http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAEx/lRwkYKsLmJW6WpvSA-z5IeCOeAA
try it, 97% crit F1, massive engage range with blink sword ambush and IA, deception for interesting combos, triple F1 with 100% crit absolutely shreads. nobody expects sword to burst them almost to 0, sword ambush in melee + F1 chunks for 50%+.
you have triple F1 to fall back on, it looks like a meme but is very good at catching people off guard.
I think its fine to have builds like this one, where it revolves around massive damage and mobility while giving up utility and survivability.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Leonidrex.5649

[apharma.3741]

On 1/1/2023 at 11:46 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

hi!

im sry that i didnt react to the last posts anymore. i adopted a romanian puppy from an european animal protection organisation and he needs a lot of attention and love right now. so im taking a break from the game atm.

also the latest balance moves make clear again, that balance in this game is kinda doomed, esp when it comes to mesmer. reducing base cs duration was a pretty bad change for example and i dont think, it makes sense to invest time for balance suggestions for devs who seems to dislike the class, seems to not understand the class and seems to work based on a low effort balance changes- and low skill requirement doctrine.

 

im also very afraid that they will completely ruin mirage with all the stuff they will adjust when giving the second dodge back, they will forget that they already nerfed it out of meta BEFORE deleting the dodge (for example vigor nerfs in mirage and duelling line) and they will forget, that they also deleted some of the problematic stuff that made condi mirage (but also in general mesmer) oppressive (= mostly inspi and chaosline, passive condi dmg spam on clones autoattack etc), so one good change like old CI deletion happend already BEFORE the dodge deletion for example. I guess they will punish mirage way harder with nerfs, but even worse with bad mechanical reworks than vidicator, even tho vindi was by basic mechanics designed around one dodge and didnt get pre-nerfed years ago already. While they will nerf/ rework once again around the real problems of the mirage mechanic itself.

 

my balance suggestions always follow the overall goal to make the game (here in this thread in particular mesmer) highly skillful and challenging to play while keeping mesmer at least semi viable with good active and skill-intense but fair and counterplayable outplay options. neither high skill ceiling/cap nor an at least semi viable mesmer class  seems to be something devs want in the game. and as long as i have that impression i will not waste my free time to give devs ideas of what not to do, to keep the game in a low skill requirement state (in case they even read them, what is also doubtable).

 

but i promised to rework the document in the few parts where some of your arguments could change my mind (for example not asking for blindable Mirror Images anymore, while still asking for a casttime).  and i stand for my words. so you find the new link to the reworked doc in the end of this post and in the first post of this thread.

 

thanks to all the ppl with constructive posts. your opinions, additions and also your constructive disagreements, it was nice, informative and instructive to discuss with you. ❤️

 

thanks also to the more destructive participants, luckily not that many. i hope the next time you can join (not only my threads but in general) more constructive and positive even when disagreeing to suggestions. that will help to keep threads shorter and the discussion focused on the topic and not focused on disputes and subjective blames. 

i wish you all a happy new year! stay healthy!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hI5r9mpx94DJEj2LoZzc0Knicqk5SLmC/view?usp=sharing

CONGRATS ON THE PUPPY!

I'll address the doc but we largely agree on the overall it needs to be skilful, rewarding etc.

Mirage axe 3: Sure de-target isn't needed, one change I would make is to normalise the confusion to be 4 or 5, consistency would help this.

Illusionary ambush: Current CD is the same as blink and no-one would ever say it competes with blink or even some other abilities. I'd be up for removing the ambush on it (especially if mirage cloak was reworked) and while de-target is annoying I do think it would be a bad skill without ambush and de-target and random placement unless on a low CD which risks spam.

Pistol 5: I agree with the general reasoning about rupts but the pistol trait is about interrupting and there's another interrupt trait in the line, I'd keep the cast etc but change the stun to a 1s daze or even 1/2s. Pistol isn't exactly a burst weapon either.

Signet of Illusions: Yeah I agree, in general too much reset and spam is bad for the class and the game and mesmer has way too much from trying to be GW1 mesmer. I suggested it gain signet of ether's active of recharging phantasms by a % and an improved version for the trait either be affect illusion skills too or higher %.

Mantras: Removing the charge was poor even if it did balance out the silliness of daze spam. I think they need to make a pass at them and generally buff them, especially the heal. I'd also like them to be more about AoE around the mesmer....so basically shouts.

Mantra of Pain: I think I had the same idea at some point of making it a boon removal, if it was 2 on the mesmer that would be fine. Would be able to weave it into a support build nicely if it had a medium or fairly short recharge.

Mantra of distration: Agree. Also agree on the CD between casts.

Mantra icon: I don't really mind either way but they would probably need to do this for a lot of ammo abilities or all shouts. I dunno I think it's weird and not really needed.

Mirror Images: Would need stab at the beginning of the cast if so. Stunbreaks with a cast and no stab suck. I'd also argue it could do with a CD decrease, not a lot just a little.

Portal: You know, this is probably the hardest and most influential skill to exist. I miss the portal plays, the team synergy, the tactics, I don't miss the "yeah but portal" *throws nerf at mesmer*. I dunno, I think in this one case it's best to let the dead rest, as painful as it is for me to say. I know you're not going to like that but you also know why I said it ❤️

Chaos and inspi: I think one of the biggest problems is they've systematically stripped the line of anything interesting, these are meant to be the defence and support lines but all prot is almost gone and remember that thing about "mesmers shouldn't get hit"? Well why is it chaos armour gives boons on hit? I agree blurred inscriptions invuln spam needs to go, CDR is better but we both know they'll ad CDR in the trait then increase all signet CDs by 5s 🙂

Prismatic Understanding: Pulse prot, regen, resolution and +1s stealth (2s in WvW, 50 in PvE coz who cares) would be a good trait.

Shatter Storm: Agreed but maybe an illusion trait.

Master of Fragmentation: I think the trait is largely fine. You know my stance on continuum split, I don't think it should exist due to the capacity for abuse. Better to make alacrity on chrono easier to upkeep than give repeat functionality out. So much has been nerfed (or rework nerfed) because of continuum split and chrono across the game it's not even funny.

Master of Misdirection: Again it's largely fine imo, it only overperforms on CS and maybe Distortion but it's a trade off. Some might even argue that it kind of buffs too much as it alters all shatters not just 1 or two.

Superiority Complex: PvE trait, nerf it down and let them have it if you think that way, we already have 2 good GMs in duelling for PvP and WvW. I personally don't see using traits to get high damage as bad, better than do insane damage and spec defensively because my class is favoured by the best and the best tend to win.

 

Virtuoso: Yeah I agree no distortion, shatters need to be less clunky though and I don't like having to do the mesmer wiggle to use it and then it still goes on a 3s CD because I was a fraction of a second out with my about face. Also fix the scaling, doesn't scale with restorative illusions past 3, I know it's probably intentional but it should.

2nd Dodge: I want CI (or a tuned down version) back and more vigor first, especially the core stuff that was gutted. I do agree it needs restoring but I want that back first. Also how about changing nomads endurance to vigor on illusion summon not on shatter? Mirage builds about keeping clones up basically lose a trait because it's poorly designed to work with the spec, illusion summon works with all builds, yes I know about DE but it's like 1/10th of a dodge refund with that trait.

Anyway I'm glad to see you're doing well Jazz.

[JazzXman.7018]

Guys can you keep it civil pls? there is no need for another emotional dispute and personal attacks against anyone. respect and constructivity should lead your actions, no matter if you might dislike  the person who is writing or if you just disagree to the persons arguments.

 

also i think i explained enough of times in what context the doc is meant. and yes its fine and needed to mention that the suggestions in my doc would make mesm totally garbage compared to current state of other classes. 

 

BUT: then you also should deal with the doc in the way it is meant. its not leading anywhere when the "but but... mesmer is already weaker than other classes mimimi" is all you can think of. as said, yes that is true. i never said otherwise. but the doc is looking at a bigger picture or better said: a different context.

the current gamestate as a whole isnt healthy nor rly that skilled anymore. its still heavily powercreeped. and that includes parts of mesmer also when mesmer is sure on the lower end of the powerc creep. anet devs ruin the game since years now, not only with wrong nerfs/buff but with nonsense mechanical changes like trade offs etc.s, with unprofessional and biased balance towards/against classes and builds (like buffing weapons they prefer to play big lol). so for me it makes no sense to ask for mesmer to be just as braindead and op/broken to be able to compete with other classes current state.

 

also you can imagine that i cannot just go into other classes sub forums and post a doc with nerfs. they would just say im not a class x main, im just a mad mesmer main trying to nerf their class since its not my main. so i just do it for my own class in hope other ppl also make suggestions for their own main class to bring them back to a more healthy state, where the game then can provide an overall skillbased competition. 

 

its not about balancing the game around mesmer, its abotu balancing the game around a skillbased philosophy by considering basic competitive  balance logic and rules,  instead anets philosophy to make average player able to compete at the top by provinging low skill requirement builds on each class. they can do it in pve ofc if they want but that is by far against every pvp competition logic. the game as a whole is so far away from its competitive potential and from good balance that its rly not enough anymore to onyl provide suggestion to deal with current state. since even when all classes would be viable, they are on a very broken and unskillful lvl then, at least imo.

 

 

pls dont forget, that nerfing other classes more than mesmer will overall buff mesmer compared to them. so even if all my suggestions would be implemented to get the gamestate i have in mind for all classes, mesmer would also be stronger compared to them than it is now. so compared to the overall gamestate i have in mind mesmer overall gets buffed compared to other classes. 

 

that cant be so hard to understand. you can still disagree to suggestion and say that you think somehting is harder to play than in my personal opinion (since that is a matter of an opinion which is highly based on personal skill lvl and comparision to other classes power lvl and with that the impression of what is hard or easy to play can differ a lot. meanwhile skill ceiling/ cap can be quantified in most parts and is barely a matter of taste/ feeling), you can even say you think i have no clue about mesmer and the game,  you do whatever you want but stop judging the doc based of the wrong context. since only saying "mesmer is already weaker than other classes in current gamestate and bc of that doesnt need any nerfs" is not helping the topic. since the topic isnt the current gamestate. the current gamestate is insanely kitten and the game as a whole needs a completely new direction in terms of balance. that counts ofc even more for other classes.

Edited January 12, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[JazzXman.7018]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Both Jazz, myself and a lot of other players know how abusive some mesmer mechanics can be that will turn a good buff into something abusive and bring out the hate mob. Each time a "degenerate" build appeared, mesmers got a lot of nerfs around the issue, before having something Smiter's Booned. I trust you looked that up like I suggested in my first response to you.

 

It's because of this both Jazz and myself and others want these problematic skills and traits to be changed to something that will give a good framework for the buffs that mesmer as a class really needs. This would then leave little room for the forum hate mob to go after power block and other strong but skilful traits. There's been a very concerted effort by those in the PvP Discord from the NA community to get power block removed from the game which would be a shame for everyone.

I'm very calm you will find, I carefully read and then type what I put so I don't need to edit often. Those that edit messages extensively especially within a few minutes of posting often tend not to have been calm and collected in their response.

ye and that.

another point is ppl often try to deal with suggestion like: dont ask for that, anet will never do that anyway. anet doesnt have the ressources, anet will never do the right moves etc. ppl in the balance discord pressured me hard to stop talking about mirage one dodge and stop to give suggestions how to give the dodge back (even ppl like Countless who at least agree to the point that mirage needs its second dodge back. but he gave up on fighting for it, since he thought its a waste of time and it is better to give suggestions to make mirage better while keeping one dodge). they said its a waste of time since anet will NEVER EVER return that dodge. and now its on the table again. it always makes sense to fight for the right. always! no matter how low the chances of suggess are. but when you stop fighting you lose for sure.

and trying to make mirage good, based on only one dodge, will make it worse for mesmer, worse for everyone facing mesmer and the game as a whole. there wasnt any good compromise available for a good balacne for one dodge mirage. so at least when there are no good compromises to find then fight for the right. and then fight without compromisses!

 

edit: i often edit my message, even very fast after posting. bc of typos and additional thoughts. doesnt necessarily mean ppl are emotional. for me it is: i see typos and stuff i forgot to mention way better in the posted stuff than in the preview. dunno why...

Edited January 4, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[apharma.3741]

10 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

ye and that.

another point is ppl often try to deal with suggestion like: dont ask for that that anet will never do anyway. anet doesnt have the ressources, anet will never do the right moves anyway etc. ppl in the balance discord pressured me hard to stop talking about mirage one dodge and stop to give suggestions how to give the dodge back (even ppl like countless who at least agree to the point that mirage needs its second dodge back. but he gave up on fighting for it, since he thought its a waste of time and it is better to give suggestions to make mirage better while keeping one dodge). they said its a waste of time since anet will NEVER EVER return that dodge. and now its on the table again. it always makes sense to fight for the right. always! no matter how low the chances of suggess are. but when you stop fighting you lose for sure.

and trying to make mirage good based on only one dodge will make it worse for mesmer, worse for everyone facing mesmer and the game as a whole. there wasnt any good compromise available for a good balacne on one dodge mirage. so at least when there are no good compromises to find then fight for the right. and fight withotu compromisses!

 

edit: i often edit my message, even very fast after posting. typos and additional thoughts. doesnt necessarily mean ppl are emotional. for me it is: i see typos and stuff i forgot to mention way better in the posted stuff than in the preview. dunno why...

In the context of "specs need trade offs" I can understand the 1 dodge and those opinions but now that's out the window there's room for 2 dodges. As we've said though it needs to be carefully done. A friend of mine 8 years ago said this about ANet: "They are consistently inconsistent" and honestly that's so true about their approach, some things they just never have or will change for no reason at all, others they seem to change every expansion.

Ah I tend to be more cool in my responses and if I'm not happy with it, I take my time. I've written so much that I just delete and start again or delete and think "no point, they're not worth a response" that I'd probably have written a novel by now. I try not to hold grudges though, no point, life's too short and we all got better things to do.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Yes I edit my posts alot because english isnt my first language (since english isnt the main language that we speak in my country) so when I re-read my posts I tend to find sentences that are formulated in the wrong way, or wrong spelling. And just as Jazz put it, sometimes I too have additional thoughts that I want to put in my post aswell. Nor am I emotional or anything of that sort. 

Jazz & apharma! You both do you! You want the game to go in a direction you think is healthy (cuz that's highly subjective, remember that), and thats tot ok, everybody is entitled to their opinion. We who disagree, we will point it out cuz we have seen how Anet in the past just be like "Hihihihi lets nerf them here, and lets nerf them there", and I think all of us are fed up with that. I dont agree with how you two want things to get changed, and I firmly believe that other classes still needs this more than us. If you cant go to each classes respective forum and suggest nerfs for them, then go to the Profession section which is for all to write their thoughts, and suggests the nerfs for other professions in there instead. Staying silent bc others will think you are a mad mesmer doesnt justify being silent towards other classes that is a way bigger issue than mesmer ever was!

Edited January 4, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[JazzXman.7018]

47 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Yes I edit my posts alot because english isnt my first language (since english isnt the main language that we speak in my country) so when I re-read my posts I tend to find sentences that are formulated in the wrong way, or wrong spelling. And just as Jazz put it, sometimes I too have additional thoughts that I want to put in my post aswell. Nor am I emotional or anything of that sort. 

Jazz & apharma! You both do you! You want the game to go in a direction you think is healthy (cuz that's highly subjective, remenber that), and thats tot ok, everybody is entitled their opinion. We who disagree, we will point it out cuz we have seen how Anet in the past just be like "Hihihihi lets nerf them here, and lets nerf them there", and I think all of us are fed up with that. I dont agree with how you two want things to get changed, and I firmly believe that other classes still needs this more than us. If you cant go to each classes respective forum and suggest nerfs,ä for them, then go to the Profession section which is for all to write their thoughts, and suggests the nerfs for other professions in there instead. Staying silent bc others will think you are a mad mesmer doesnt justify being silent towards other classes that is a way bigger issue than mesmer ever was!

Thumb up. Thats why i answered your first post with that i understand your reasons and that i can get it (i wasnt ironical i rly meant it) and as mentioned in my first post in this thread: i know that my personal opinion about how skillbased the game should be is very restrictive (that is my bias, as mentioned in the first post of the thread) and for that i am always open for additons but also criticism, as long as it is constructive and doesnt just claim wrong stuff and is not toxic and doesnt fail to see what the topic/context of my writings is. 

 

i understand the anger you all have about anet and its mesmer balance, i even feel it too, i rly do. i just deal with it differently by completely not accepting the current gamestate as a whole in that way: by totally  refusing to provide any balance suggestions to deal with current gamestate (as mesmer main).

Edited January 4, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[AshkyLicious.4729]

2 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

Thumb up. Thats why i answered your first post with that i understand your reasons and that i can get it (i wasnt ironical i rly meant it) and as mentioned in my first post in this thread: i know that my personal opinion about how skillbased the game should be is very restrictive and for that i am always open for additons but also criticism, as long as it is constructive and doesnt just claim wrong stuff and is not toxic and doesnt fail to see what the topic/context of my writings is. 

 

i understand the anger you all have about anet and its mesmer balance, i even feel it too, i rly do. i just deal with it differently by completely not accepting the current gamestate as a whole in a way by refusing to provide any balance suggestions to deal with current gamestate (as mesmer main).

I know, and I know that you wasn't ironic in your last post, Im one of those who actually gave you a thumbs up for your reply on my post 😊

We are in the same boat with slightly different opinions! lets hope for 2023 being a Mesmer year for all of us 😊

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[JazzXman.7018]

28 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

We are in the same boat with slightly different opinions! lets hope for 2023 being a Mesmer year for all of us 😊

 

exactly! thank you ❤️ ye lets hope for 2023, maybe hire some new pvp devs, maybe the ones they lost around 3-4 years ago when the insanely bad balance started with the kitten pve driven rework to make chrono shield groundbased and not castable in the back. what a clunky mess 😆

Edited January 4, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[AshkyLicious.4729]

 

9 minutes ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

exactly! thank you ❤️ ye lets hope for 2023, maybe hire some new pvp devs, maybe the ones they lost around 3-4 years ago when the insanely bad balance started with the kitten pve driven rework to make chrono shield groundbased and not castable in the back what a clunky mess 😆

One thing I firmly believe would do good for balancing the game is to actually have one dev leader per class, with a small team under them. That way each team can focus on their class, get together all teams for briefing, giving eachother input and feedback. I think this way we would have less favorism and way more fair balancing!

Edited January 4, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[JazzXman.7018]

18 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

 

One thing I firmly believe would do good for balancing the game is to actually have one dev leader per class, with a small team under them. That way each team can focus on their class, get together all teams for briefing, giving eachother input and feedback. I think this way we would have less favorism and way more fair balancing!

that would be great. instead one biased ele main dev, with at max mediocre game-knowle... (ooopsi but ye truth might hurt here and there)... i guess we have to find a billionaire to buy anet^^

Edited January 4, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Just now, JazzXman.7018 said:

that would be great. instead one biased ele main dev, with at max mediocregame knowle... (ooopsi but ye truth might hurt here and there)... i guess we have to find a billionaire to buy anet^^

I actually think they have the economy for it already, the issue is that they rather spend those resources on gem store instead... 😑