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Brave Stride CD


Kraav.8136

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42 minutes ago, Kraav.8136 said:

Can we have Brave Stride trait un-nerfed for WvW/PvP? It should use the PvE CD of 1 second. Please normalize it throughout all game modes.

As the person who suggested this version of Brave Stride I agree that the CD is too long, but the PvE CD would be too powerful in WvW/PvP, especially since we are getting stab on CC with a 1/4s CD in Defense on Oct . 4th. You'll get plenty of stab between those two traits together after Oct. 4th.

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2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

As the person who suggested this version of Brave Stride I agree that the CD is too long, but the PvE CD would be too powerful in WvW/PvP, especially since we are getting stab on CC with a 1/4s CD in Defense on Oct . 4th. You'll get plenty of stab between those two traits together after Oct. 4th.

That and actually being able to run Balanced Stance again (hopefully).

  

47 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think that is the better call. Longer duration or at least 2 stacks.

At least 2 or 3 stacks, yeah. Since I mean we're talking about ranged or even AoE CC just stripping that Stability off immediately. I don't think this is a huge ask, especially when we consider that Soulbeast can still vomit 10+ stacks of Stability onto itself.

Edited by KryTiKaL.3125
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Personally I think keeping the 2s duration but reducing the CD (ideally to 1-2s like the OP suggested) is the way to go. Even on the most mobility -focused builds, you quickly run out of CDs so you can't chain stab in any sustained way. Reduce the stab duration to 1.5s if you have to. 

 

Moreover, you really want to be in control of when you gain stability. Having trigger on a low CD means I can count on having stability when I use a movement skill. As it is currently, it's just luck if I happen to have stab up when I get CCd. It's really hard to keep track of a hidden10s CD when you're fighting for your life (and have a bunch of other CDs to monitor).

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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Personally I think keeping the 2s duration but reducing the CD (ideally to 1-2s like the OP suggested) is the way to go. Even on the most mobility -focused builds, you quickly run out of CDs so you can't chain stab in any sustained way. Reduce the stab duration to 1.5s if you have to. 

 

Moreover, you really want to be in control of when you gain stability. Having trigger on a low CD means I can count on having stability when I use a movement skill. As it is currently, it's just luck if I happen to have stab up when I get CCd. It's really hard to keep track of a hidden10s CD when you're fighting for your life (and have a bunch of other CDs to monitor).

The only problem I see with such a low ICD is that if you play something like Spellbreaker, you have dagger leap, dagger leap, shield bash, whirlwind, rush, bulls rush. That’s a lot of stability you are going to be stacking. 
 

There’s two possible intended use cases for this trait in my view, with each changing the balance;

Use Case 1:  ensure your mobility skills don’t get interrupted

Use Case 2: provide a brief moment of security at the end of a mobility skill to secure a burst. 
 

Under the first intended use case, something around .75-1s stab+1s ICD would probably be appropriate. This would secure basically just the movement skill, which would fulfill that purpose. 
 

Under the second intended use case, the same CD or even a bit longer with 2 stacks at 2 seconds would make more sense, as it gives a bit more for people to work through, giving better damage security at the end of the mobility skill. 
 

The important thing for people to do is to decide what they want the skill to be used for. I would bias towards the first. Granted the balance of these alterations would be wholly unpredictable without play-testing.

Edited by oscuro.9720
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3 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

The only problem I see with such a low ICD is that if you play something like Spellbreaker, you have dagger leap, dagger leap, shield bash, whirlwind, rush, bulls rush. That’s a lot of stability you are going to be stacking. 
 

There’s two possible intended use cases for this trait in my view, with each changing the balance;

Use Case 1:  ensure your mobility skills don’t get interrupted

Use Case 2: provide a brief moment of security at the end of a mobility skill to secure a burst. 
 

Under the first intended use case, something around .75-1s stab+1s ICD would probably be appropriate. This would secure basically just the movement skill, which would fulfill that purpose. 
 

Under the second intended use case, the same CD or even a bit longer with 2 stacks at 2 seconds would make more sense, as it gives a bit more for people to work through, giving better damage security at the end of the mobility skill. 
 

The important thing for people to do is to decide what they want the skill to be used for. I would bias towards the first. Granted the balance of these alterations would be wholly unpredictable without play-testing.

When I proposed the change in the first place my reasoning was Use Case 1. To help the warrior get to the target to mitigate the problems of being so melee focused in a game where everyone else has a decent ranged weapon to keep hitting you with while kiting.

I also proposed a trait to increase movement skill distance, and swiftness on using a movement skill. One of those ended up on BSW. It seems that my reasoning resonated with Cal and they are putting the new Aggressive Onslaught in, which is much more powerful than anything I would have proposed.

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2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

The only problem I see with such a low ICD is that if you play something like Spellbreaker, you have dagger leap, dagger leap, shield bash, whirlwind, rush, bulls rush. That’s a lot of stability you are going to be stacking. 
 

There’s two possible intended use cases for this trait in my view, with each changing the balance;

Use Case 1:  ensure your mobility skills don’t get interrupted

Use Case 2: provide a brief moment of security at the end of a mobility skill to secure a burst. 
 

Under the first intended use case, something around .75-1s stab+1s ICD would probably be appropriate. This would secure basically just the movement skill, which would fulfill that purpose. 
 

Under the second intended use case, the same CD or even a bit longer with 2 stacks at 2 seconds would make more sense, as it gives a bit more for people to work through, giving better damage security at the end of the mobility skill. 
 

The important thing for people to do is to decide what they want the skill to be used for. I would bias towards the first. Granted the balance of these alterations would be wholly unpredictable without play-testing.

Yeah I'm with you. Option 1 seems to be the spirit of the skill. I'm down with 1s of stab with a 1s (or 0s) CD. That'd still be super useful... Any movement skill would get you across line of warding or out of hunter's ward, or keep you from being blasted by Point Blank shot in the middle of eviscerate or breaching strike.

 

And it would have obvious synergy with Headbutt, esp since it will no longer remove stability. 

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1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

When I proposed the change in the first place my reasoning was Use Case 1. To help the warrior get to the target to mitigate the problems of being so melee focused in a game where everyone else has a decent ranged weapon to keep hitting you with while kiting.

I also proposed a trait to increase movement skill distance, and swiftness on using a movement skill. One of those ended up on BSW. It seems that my reasoning resonated with Cal and they are putting the new Aggressive Onslaught in, which is much more powerful than anything I would have proposed.

I am a touch lost. In this thread you suggest extending the duration. Are you talking about previously suggested changes? Or did you propose the same thing as Calm? I feel like I’m missing something but I’m also pretty exhausted rn so that could explain why. 

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3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

When I proposed the change in the first place my reasoning was Use Case 1. To help the warrior get to the target to mitigate the problems of being so melee focused in a game where everyone else has a decent ranged weapon to keep hitting you with while kiting.

I also proposed a trait to increase movement skill distance, and swiftness on using a movement skill. One of those ended up on BSW. It seems that my reasoning resonated with Cal and they are putting the new Aggressive Onslaught in, which is much more powerful than anything I would have proposed.

We shall see how Aggressive Onslaught plays out. It sounds decent, but "when you disable a foe" mechanics are pretty unreliable. And the speed boost, being tied to quickness, will be pretty short-lived unless you're doing some max quickness build (eg, warhorn, martial cadence, firebrand runes...). And the opportunity cost (dropping Berserker's Power or MMR) is massive. So.... We'll see. 

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33 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I am a touch lost. In this thread you suggest extending the duration. Are you talking about previously suggested changes? Or did you propose the same thing as Calm? I feel like I’m missing something but I’m also pretty exhausted rn so that could explain why. 

I proposed the version of Brave Stride in game now. The devs even lifted my language word for word, but added the CD. I originally proposed no CD, but after playing with it in PvE I came to think that short of a CD would be too much in competitive. 6s is as far as you could lower it before it would become a problem, and I am surprised the new Stab on CC trait has such a short CD.

 

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32 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

We shall see how Aggressive Onslaught plays out. It sounds decent, but "when you disable a foe" mechanics are pretty unreliable. And the speed boost, being tied to quickness, will be pretty short-lived unless you're doing some max quickness build (eg, warhorn, martial cadence, firebrand runes...). And the opportunity cost (dropping Berserker's Power or MMR) is massive. So.... We'll see. 

Yep, but you have easier access to Defense's sustain now to make up for not taking MMR.

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2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I proposed the version of Brave Stride in game now. The devs even lifted my language word for word, but added the CD. I originally proposed no CD, but after playing with it in PvE I came to think that short of a CD would be too much in competitive. 6s is as far as you could lower it before it would become a problem, and I am surprised the new Stab on CC trait has such a short CD.

 

Ah, I see. Yes, under 6s would be problematic unless the duration of the stability is cut down dramatically. If it were .5-.75s, meaning it would solely cover the mobility portion and likely nothing after, I think going lower to 1-3s would be tenable, but I can’t say for certain. Also worth noting that such a change would prevent it from covering skills such as Rush, which take longer to complete than such a short duration stability. 
 

As for the new stability-on-CC trait, CC is pretty infrequent, has to actively be landed, and our CCs are almost all (bar 2) extremely telegraphed skills. The 2 that are not (mace 3, dagger 3) are more of interrupts akin to power lock than they are burst-setups. I don’t think there will be much of a problem with a short ICD personally. The quickness one is where I see more of a problem. It should likely have an ICD around 2 or 3 seconds, given you could pop off shield bash>bulls rush>disrupting stab and get 9ish seconds of quickness, which is a little overkill and probably not the intended function. 

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2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Ah, I see. Yes, under 6s would be problematic unless the duration of the stability is cut down dramatically. If it were .5-.75s, meaning it would solely cover the mobility portion and likely nothing after, I think going lower to 1-3s would be tenable, but I can’t say for certain. Also worth noting that such a change would prevent it from covering skills such as Rush, which take longer to complete than such a short duration stability. 
 

As for the new stability-on-CC trait, CC is pretty infrequent, has to actively be landed, and our CCs are almost all (bar 2) extremely telegraphed skills. The 2 that are not (mace 3, dagger 3) are more of interrupts akin to power lock than they are burst-setups. I don’t think there will be much of a problem with a short ICD personally. The quickness one is where I see more of a problem. It should likely have an ICD around 2 or 3 seconds, given you could pop off shield bash>bulls rush>disrupting stab and get 9ish seconds of quickness, which is a little overkill and probably not the intended function. 

Nah, you would  weave the CC in and use the quickness windows to squeeze in bursts of dps and us AO's speed boost to stay on top of the target.

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Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nah, you would  weave the CC in and use the quickness windows to squeeze in bursts of dps and us AO's speed boost to stay on top of the target.

Yea, I believe that’s the intended function, and the more optimal function if you want to perform well against good players, which I’m excited for because I really like aggressive warrior. However, vs low skill players being able to spam a bunch of CC then be way faster than them with quickened attacks is going to be a problem for the lower-skill players. 
 

That’s why I say a 2-3s ICD, because it would still support the way you said above, but prevent that regressive CC spam style of play. (Ideally 2s so you can get that 1s overlap if you play perfectly, which is unlikely vs anyone competent). 

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2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Yea, I believe that’s the intended function, and the more optimal function if you want to perform well against good players, which I’m excited for because I really like aggressive warrior. However, vs low skill players being able to spam a bunch of CC then be way faster than them with quickened attacks is going to be a problem for the lower-skill players. 
 

That’s why I say a 2-3s ICD, because it would still support the way you said above, but prevent that regressive CC spam style of play. (Ideally 2s so you can get that 1s overlap if you play perfectly, which is unlikely vs anyone competent). 

I think skill based traits should have lower ICDs. Our CCs are pretty telegraphed, so they should be heavily rewarded for hitting.

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15 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think skill based traits should have lower ICDs. Our CCs are pretty telegraphed, so they should be heavily rewarded for hitting.

I agree, it’s part of what I really like about the new traits introduced. I believe we’ve talked about the need for properly skill-rewarding traits on here before (possibly multiple times before). Very glad it’s the direction they seem to be taking Warrior.

I’m just worried about how it will play out in lower-skill engagements, where it could be oppressive and abused in a manner that would generally not occur in a matchup between more skilled players. In that sense, I don’t see the stability being a problem in the same way that quickness could become one, if that makes sense?

 

Edit: granted Warrior is in a position where perhaps something that can be broken still wouldn’t be super problematic, and I’m just over-worried for no reason. That’s actually quite likely tbh.

Edited by oscuro.9720
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7 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I agree, it’s part of what I really like about the new traits introduced. I believe we’ve talked about the need for properly skill-rewarding traits on here before (possibly multiple times before). Very glad it’s the direction they seem to be taking Warrior.

I’m just worried about how it will play out in lower-skill engagements, where it could be oppressive and abused in a manner that would generally not occur in a matchup between more skilled players. In that sense, I don’t see the stability being a problem in the same way that quickness could become one, if that makes sense?

 

Edit: granted Warrior is in a position where perhaps something that can be broken still wouldn’t be super problematic, and I’m just over-worried for no reason. That’s actually quite likely tbh.

I mean, its not like we don't have several other sources of quickness, nor can get it easily from two sigils or anything. Warrior can upkeep quickness pretty easily. With AO, I think you'd be able to have very high upkeep with Celerity and Rage sigils.

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