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Revenge Counter


Zagerus.8675

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2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Warrior can overload itself with self condi removal, and has been able to do so for a while, independent of the current PvP scene, but they aren't very effective otherwise if you do that, placing it onto the profession mechanic opens up the ability to do other things. And 3 condis removed every 9 seconds is less than what some other professions can do while augmenting their profession mechanic.

The discussion around Revenge Counter is predicated on the fact that they overnerfed Full Counter's damage and latching onto condition transfers is one of the ways that people (plural as in not just me), have been discussing making the trait more worth taking.

If they buff Full Counter's damage, like how they just did with Skull Crack and Earth Shaker, then it becomes a moot point. TBH this is the right path forward, finding an amount of damage on Full Counter that is not obscene, but enough that Revenge Counter can make it feel weighty. I still think they should put Resolution on it since Resistance is so nerfed.

The logic here is simply, healbreaker has never lacked self condition cleanse, not before, not now, not in the future even with SIO change.

 

there's literally no reason for you to be demanding an extra 3 condition removal every 9 second

if one spec is struggle against condition, we demand better condition clear

if one spec is not doing damage, we demand more damage.

 

there's literally 0 reason for you to demanding more condition clear on this spec except the fact that there's this pointless 20% damage increase line on the trait, while the spec is completely fine with condition.

and i'm talking about the same old healbreaker(and the newer version with banner) and not specifically loading with selfish condition cleanse.

 

it's literally like asking power herald to do damage..like what..

 

balance you need to look at the overall picture, the build that utilize it, the purpose of this trait and the overall pvp power level and the outcome of said buff.

instead of asking for buff, oh only because this one trait is not as good as before.

like you give this extra condition cleanse so what, it's not gonna help anything other then healbreaker, because power will take tether, like what's your goal here even.

 

do you not realize how insane having extra 3 condition cleanse every 9 second is, even alone, not counting what healbreaker already can do. that's what's called a extreme hard counter, no condition build in the world will ever kill healbreaker in a life time, and that's not how you balance the game. unless you nerf condition cleanse from other parts, which then leads to nerf other builds like power and make them even weaker against condition.

like what are you thinking.

you can try to make revenge counter better, like which i suggested giving aoe resistance.

but condition transfer? what were you thinking.

plus revenge counter is never the power trait anyway, power are taking tether, having damage to this trait on healbreaker literally make 0 difference.

asking for resolution is even more unthoughtful, like what. healbreaker already deal fairly fine against condition..like what....it's like asking for more damage on herald because i feel like it.

you understand warrior, but do not understand the current pvp status well. the transfer suggestion is way over the line for what pvp currently is.

Edited by felix.2386
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55 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

The logic here is simply, healbreaker has never lacked self condition cleanse, not before, not now, not in the future even with SIO change.

 

there's literally no reason for you to be demanding an extra 3 condition removal every 9 second

if one spec is struggle against condition, we demand better condition clear

if one spec is not doing damage, we demand more damage.

 

there's literally 0 reason for you to demanding more condition clear on this spec except the fact that there's this pointless 20% damage increase line on the trait, while the spec is completely fine with condition.

and i'm talking about the same old healbreaker(and the newer version with banner) and not specifically loading with selfish condition cleanse.

 

it's literally like asking power herald to do damage..like what..

 

balance you need to look at the overall picture, the build that utilize it, the purpose of this trait and the overall pvp power level and the outcome of said buff.

instead of asking for buff, oh only because this one trait is not as good as before.

like you give this extra condition cleanse so what, it's not gonna help anything other then healbreaker, because power will take tether, like what's your goal here even.

 

do you not realize how insane having extra 3 condition cleanse every 9 second is, even alone, not counting what healbreaker already can do. that's what's called a extreme hard counter, no condition build in the world will ever kill healbreaker in a life time, and that's not how you balance the game. unless you nerf condition cleanse from other parts, which then leads to nerf other builds like power and make them even weaker against condition.

like what are you thinking.

you can try to make revenge counter better, like which i suggested giving aoe resistance.

but condition transfer? what were you thinking.

plus revenge counter is never the power trait anyway, power are taking tether, having damage to this trait on healbreaker literally make 0 difference.

asking for resolution is even more unthoughtful, like what. healbreaker already deal fairly fine against condition..like what....it's like asking for more damage on herald because i feel like it.

you understand warrior, but do not understand the current pvp status well. the transfer suggestion is way over the line for what pvp currently is.

Hey bud, do me a favor and calm down a bit.

Condition transfer on Revenge Counter isn't a new thing being discussed, it's something that's been discussed over in the warrior subforum many times, and mostly from the competitive modes players, PvP and WvW. So, please don't act like I'm pulling 💩 from the ether. If transfer is too powerful for the PvP crowd, hey they've been splitting the skills every which way in the latest batch of patches, so split it there if needed. I suspect though with how Cleansing Ire is being reworked that that desire will dampen down once we see how it handles live.

As to AoE Resolution and AoE Resistance on Revenge Counter, that leans into part of how to turn Spellbreaker into a better support. It could go on Guard Counter or it can go on Revenge Counter, doesn't really matter. As for why on Revenge Counter, Resistance used to block all conditions, even the damaging ones, putting Resolution in there at least partially gives back that old condition protection. I'm not suggesting things out of nowhere here, but for very distinct reasons given how the trait used to perform prior to widespread changes to Resistance that were not properly followed up on based on the various skills and trait's intents.

As to this trait being support only and that trait being power only, that has more to do with how they've nickel and dimed Full Counter and less to do with the traits themselves. If Full Counter did damage again, you would see power builds take it as an option for more AoE damage.

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Just give Full Counter its damage back. The "CC skills do no damage" thing was a stupid change to begin with and is incredibly inconsistently applied. If Full Counter did 1.5 damage again, Revenge Counter would have use again, and the skill would be way more satisfying to use. Do reduce the daze duration if you do that though.

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59 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Just give Full Counter its damage back. The "CC skills do no damage" thing was a stupid change to begin with and is incredibly inconsistently applied. If Full Counter did 1.5 damage again, Revenge Counter would have use again, and the skill would be way more satisfying to use. Do reduce the daze duration if you do that though.

^ This ^ But if they don't return some damage to FC then Revenge Counter's 20% damage increase is useless and something else needs to be put into the trait.

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5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

^ This ^ But if they don't return some damage to FC then Revenge Counter's 20% damage increase is useless and something else needs to be put into the trait.

I mean if you think about it Earthshaker, Skullcrack, and Prime Light Beam are getting some damage back because they're iconic abilities. Full Counter fits that bill of being a iconic ability as well. But even going without that reasoning. FC damage should return in some shape, even if it's on the lower end side like earthshaker will be, since it's not even a true stun, it's a daze. 

Revenge Counter would need 2 things to put it in a decent spot for use again,  That would be FC having some sort of damage again to utilize that 20% damage boost so it isn't entirely a useless text description in competative modes(Spvp/WvW) and the other thing would be adding the  Resolution boon,  since a big part of why you'd take Revenge Counter in the past was for condi softener/management, The resistance rework gave no compensation for that loss against Condi damage mitigation, so it kinda just killed the reason you took it over the other MBT. 

So what you get out of Revenge Counter is essentially a smidge of resistance for unblindable FC , and a very low impact of copied conditions by those hit by it. For those that don't know, when you copy conditions with Revenge Counter, the conditions you copied do not use your opponents stats, they use yours. So running this on a power build , damage conditions are basically doing very little even at high stacks. This is why transferring instead of copying is a popular idea for a Revenge Counter change, since transferring removes it from you and uses the stats of the original applicator. 

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4 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I mean if you think about it Earthshaker, Skullcrack, and Prime Light Beam are getting some damage back because they're iconic abilities. Full Counter fits that bill of being a iconic ability as well. But even going without that reasoning. FC damage should return in some shape, even if it's on the lower end side like earthshaker will be, since it's not even a true stun, it's a daze. 

Revenge Counter would need 2 things to put it in a decent spot for use again,  That would be FC having some sort of damage again to utilize that 20% damage boost so it isn't entirely a useless text description in competative modes(Spvp/WvW) and the other thing would be adding the  Resolution boon,  since a big part of why you'd take Revenge Counter in the past was for condi softener/management, The resistance rework gave no compensation for that loss against Condi damage mitigation, so it kinda just killed the reason you took it over the other MBT. 

So what you get out of Revenge Counter is essentially a smidge of resistance for unblindable FC , and a very low impact of copied conditions by those hit by it. For those that don't know, when you copy conditions with Revenge Counter, the conditions you copied do not use your opponents stats, they use yours. So running this on a power build , damage conditions are basically doing very little even at high stacks. This is why transferring instead of copying is a popular idea for a Revenge Counter change, since transferring removes it from you and uses the stats of the original applicator. 

And this would be perfect.

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24 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I mean if you think about it Earthshaker, Skullcrack, and Prime Light Beam are getting some damage back because they're iconic abilities. Full Counter fits that bill of being a iconic ability as well. But even going without that reasoning. FC damage should return in some shape, even if it's on the lower end side like earthshaker will be, since it's not even a true stun, it's a daze. 

Revenge Counter would need 2 things to put it in a decent spot for use again,  That would be FC having some sort of damage again to utilize that 20% damage boost so it isn't entirely a useless text description in competative modes(Spvp/WvW) and the other thing would be adding the  Resolution boon,  since a big part of why you'd take Revenge Counter in the past was for condi softener/management, The resistance rework gave no compensation for that loss against Condi damage mitigation, so it kinda just killed the reason you took it over the other MBT. 

So what you get out of Revenge Counter is essentially a smidge of resistance for unblindable FC , and a very low impact of copied conditions by those hit by it. For those that don't know, when you copy conditions with Revenge Counter, the conditions you copied do not use your opponents stats, they use yours. So running this on a power build , damage conditions are basically doing very little even at high stacks. This is why transferring instead of copying is a popular idea for a Revenge Counter change, since transferring removes it from you and uses the stats of the original applicator. 

Even then, those 3 skills are only barely getting damage back, and sadly will likely remain borderline unusable.

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3 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Even then, those 3 skills are only barely getting damage back, and sadly will likely remain borderline unusable.

It's still way better than hitting a fat 7 damage into stability especially skills that have a big wind up. I'm riding a wave of hopium rn though in a sense that it paves the way to undoing more of the no damage CC damage changes on more abilities that didn't need it.  I'm keeping my expectations realistic though, and expect this if they're going to return more damage to CCs that should have it, it'll be a long and slow burn process, or maybe this is the first and last time this will happen. 

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5 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

It's still way better than hitting a fat 7 damage into stability especially skills that have a big wind up. I'm riding a wave of hopium rn though in a sense that it paves the way to undoing more of the no damage CC damage changes on more abilities that didn't need it.  I'm keeping my expectations realistic though, and expect this if they're going to return more damage to CCs that should have it, it'll be a long and slow burn process, or maybe this is the first and last time this will happen. 

Well, I do agree with everything you say. But sadly, I dont expect them to revert it. CMC is the one who gave us that change, and he seems to sincerely still believe that it was a good idea. Somehow.

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8 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Well, I do agree with everything you say. But sadly, I dont expect them to revert it. CMC is the one who gave us that change, and he seems to sincerely still believe that it was a good idea. Somehow.

That's the joy of hopium, maybe he's re-considered and it'll return, despite how unlikely it might be. 

 

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Depends on your modifiers and base stats. Earthshaker will get QQ threads about it over from the WvW forums but the gear system in PvP may keep it in check.

Nah i don't think people are going to QQ about it in WvW. Too many people drowing in stability and prot and getting over healed in big groups to care about some damage from one skill, that involves leaping into a bunch of stacked buffed up people.

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1 minute ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

That's the joy of hopium, maybe he's re-considered and it'll return, despite how unlikely it might be. 

 

Nah i don't think people are going to QQ about it in WvW. Too many people drowing in stability and prot and getting over healed in big groups to care about some damage from one skill, that involves leaping into a bunch of stacked buffed up people.

Oh I'm going to make some Roamers cry don't worry.

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