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Mechanist needed the skill floor raising, not a DPS nerf.


Crit.5123

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On 9/29/2022 at 8:07 AM, HowlKamui.5120 said:

Im confused, if you raise the skill floor, wouldn't you yourself have a tougher time playing the class since of your partial left hand disability?

 

It would if it went too far, but there are Li builds and there is this one :). Adding an auto chain and removing the mech auto option for a start would not put it out of reach of people who want Li, but nerf the dps for people just pressing 1.

 

I would also be curious as to why the people who currently play Mechanist actually play it. I dont play it just because its naturally Li, i play it because i find it really enjoyable. A proper viable rifle class is what i was after for soo long. I mained Renegade for 3k hours, but moved to engi after the rifle changes. I also play rifle qScrapper which is a hell of a lot of fun too :).

Edited by Crit.5123
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I disagree with the premise of the OP. There is not only room for LI DPS builds, but a need for them in the modern MMO landscape.

We need people with impairments of various sorts (age, injury, disability, etc) to be able to pull their weight and have fun contributing to group play.

What we do not need is for such an LI build to be so effective that even higher performance players feel pressure to play it, leading to massive overrepresentation in played statistics.

Edited by Ashen.2907
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12 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

 

What we do not need is for such an LI build to be so effective that even higher performance players feel pressure to play it, leading to massive overrepresentation in played statistics.

 

 

This is a player base issue though not balance. If Scourge for example was buffed to the sky tomorrow and could kick out 50k DPS i personally would not switch to it as i find it very unsatisfying to play. If you feel pressure to play a specific class that's kind of a you problem imo (not you specifically but whoever it bothers).

 

Renegade was hit with nerf after nerf over time (yes some were needed) but i stuck with it because i enjoyed it, and couldn't really care if it wasn’t the 'best'. I switched due to the rifle changes and actually play rifle Qscrapper now more than pMech. If people feel the 'need' to play a specific class so they can look at some numbers instead of enjoying the game...then meh.

 

As i said at the start though i agree Mech does need some changes, 25k from 0 apm is just silly. Making some skill floor alterations though would not put it out of reach of people that want/need Li as there is plenty of headroom to change stuff and still keep it < 20apm. This would just hinder people coming into content and just pressing 1 and out DPSing your average SLB, which i agree is totally stupid.

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11 hours ago, Crit.5123 said:

 

This is a player base issue though not balance. If Scourge for example was buffed to the sky tomorrow and could kick out 50k DPS i personally would not switch to it as i find it very unsatisfying to play. If you feel pressure to play a specific class that's kind of a you problem imo (not you specifically but whoever it bothers).

 

Renegade was hit with nerf after nerf over time (yes some were needed) but i stuck with it because i enjoyed it, and couldn't really care if it wasn’t the 'best'. I switched due to the rifle changes and actually play rifle Qscrapper now more than pMech. If people feel the 'need' to play a specific class so they can look at some numbers instead of enjoying the game...then meh.

 

As i said at the start though i agree Mech does need some changes, 25k from 0 apm is just silly. Making some skill floor alterations though would not put it out of reach of people that want/need Li as there is plenty of headroom to change stuff and still keep it < 20apm. This would just hinder people coming into content and just pressing 1 and out DPSing your average SLB, which i agree is totally stupid.

By that logic absolutely anything can be written off as a player problem.  Why don't players like this game more? Well, that's their fault!  Nothing is wrong with the game!

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12 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

By that logic absolutely anything can be written off as a player problem.  Why don't players like this game more? Well, that's their fault!  Nothing is wrong with the game!

 

Nah not really, i was using an extreme example. The DPS output on Mechanist is not crazy high, it doesn't smash through the 40k barrier like condi Ren used to do etc... The problem is it can reach 70%-80% bench doing virtually nothing. If people are pressured into playing it becasuse they dont want to drop down the DPS meter a bit.....then thats on them.

 

Raising the skill floor would solve this problem. But as i said in the original post, this is just my opinion on it. Depends on which side of the fence you fall i suppose.

Edited by Crit.5123
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10 minutes ago, Crit.5123 said:

 

Nah not really, i was using an extreme example. The DPS output on Mechanist is not crazy high, it doesn't smash through the 40k barrier like condi Ren used to do etc... The problem is it can reach 70%-80% bench doing virtually nothing. If people are pressured into playing it becasuse they dont want to drop down the DPS meter a bit.....then thats on them.

 

Raising the skill floor would solve this problem. Bus as i said in the original post, this is just my opinion on it. Depends on which side of the fence you fall i suppose.

No.  The problem is it performs better than most specs in most situations.  As has been pointed out about a million times at this point, only people disingenuously defending this spec are focused on its raw benchmark (which is still kitten close to top tier!).

It is only partly due to ease of rotation.  Other significant factors are the mech deals too much damage while ignoring mechanics, rifle AA deals too much damage for a non-chain ranged auto, and the build overall deals too much burst and sustained damage from range. 

Again, that's why it's being nerfed.  The ease of play aspect is intended.  It simply overperforms.  That's the problem.

Edited by AliamRationem.5172
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Reading this thread I don't see where anything is proposed that changes the Mechanist in a way that it is still LI and allows the players using it to enjoy the same content they have access to now. The suggestions have either been to change the spec in ways that make it no longer LI, making it another piano build (as someone artfully phrased it) or nerf it to the point that people are forced to abandon it and play a different spec. It's like a combination of horribly bad game design ideas and deliberate malice.

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15 minutes ago, Thelgar.7214 said:

 nerf it to the point that people are forced to abandon it and play a different spec.

This seems to be a tiny minority. Most of those (including myself) who desire a nerf just want it to be reasonably balanced. I love the fact that those members of my circle of friends/guildies who just dont have it in them to master a complex build have a way to contribute to group content with their mechanist. I love the fact that they are excited when they now do more damage with their "DPS" characters than the group's healers. But it is overtuned. They can still have all of that with a nerf to the build's DPS.

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23 minutes ago, Thelgar.7214 said:

Reading this thread I don't see where anything is proposed that changes the Mechanist in a way that it is still LI and allows the players using it to enjoy the same content they have access to now. The suggestions have either been to change the spec in ways that make it no longer LI, making it another piano build (as someone artfully phrased it) or nerf it to the point that people are forced to abandon it and play a different spec. It's like a combination of horribly bad game design ideas and deliberate malice.

 

Because you cant make a LI build that perform decent enough that people will take it to most instanced content without having people complaining it's "too strong". So far only PMech has a LI build that is competitive enough to be taken in instanced content. I dont remember seeing anyone running other LI build anyway.

 

Pretty much all piano build already reaches / outperform PMech with probably the exception of Holosmith but at this point, Holosmith could receive more love considering it is a very selfish DPS.

 

So most player would rather nuke the spec so that it never sees the light again. Of course you'll find some people saying "hur but it can still DPS even with 25k" but most player will kick you for a support DPS that probably deals less damage but brings the team more value. Anet is trying a bunch of things from removing ferocity buff to removing AAR triggering on Mech but the true issue isnt mech doing too much damage, it's when you have 2 piano build with one harder than the other but the harder version for some reason cannot really compete against the other piano build.

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On 10/1/2022 at 7:25 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

I disagree with the premise of the OP. There is not only room for LI DPS builds, but a need for them in the modern MMO landscape.

We need people with impairments of various sorts (age, injury, disability, etc) to be able to pull their weight and have fun contributing to group play.

What we do not need is for such an LI build to be so effective that even higher performance players feel pressure to play it, leading to massive overrepresentation in played statistics.

IMO, the massive over representation is due to the fact that pmech is the only accepted LI build in endgame team content. 

So there are two options here IMO.

1. They don't intend for such effectiveness on an LI build ... and the nerf it to the level of other LI builds. This would appease lots of people that are stuck in traditional MMO values. 

2. They expand the LI build offerings in other classes. This would enable a broader offering to the less capable community and spread out the pmech uses to other classes they may prefer. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

IMO, the massive over representation is due to the fact that pmech is the only accepted LI build in endgame team content. 

This has not been my experience, but I cannot claim to have been in every group either. I've seen LI builds for a number of specs in strikes, then again I dont raid. I often use LI builds as training wheels for a spec that I dont normally play. A way to learn the class before, possibly, moving on to something more complex or involved. Ive played LI builds for all professions except ranger in strikes without a problem .

Edited by Ashen.2907
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On 10/5/2022 at 4:57 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

This has not been my experience, but I cannot claim to have been in every group either. I've seen LI builds for a number of specs in strikes

You can see a lot of different builds in strikes - especially the IBS easy 3. Beyond those, as long as it is only one-two such build, and the rest of the players are on the level, usually noone complains, but everyone knows that one person running nomad LB DH is getting carried and offers nothing of value to the group. And how nice people are about it depends a lot on the strike and the quality of the group - if it's a harder strike and a wipe happens, expect those players to get kicked immediately.

In raids the responses will be even more varied, and will even more depend on the encounter and group. But as far as LI builds go, pmech was the only one that was ever truly accepted - all the others were at best merely tolerated.

On 10/5/2022 at 4:57 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

Ive played LI builds for all professions except ranger in strikes without a problem .

That's ironic considering that the condi shortbow SB was probably one of the easiest to play (and most popular) LI builds for strikes until mech came around. With the downside that it was popular enough to be recognized by a lot of players as a LI build almost immediately.

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23 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You can see a lot of different builds in strikes - especially the IBS easy 3. Beyond those, as long as it is only one-two such build, and the rest of the players are on the level, usually noone complains, but everyone knows that one person running nomad LB DH is getting carried and offers nothing of value to the group. And how nice people are about it depends a lot on the strike and the quality of the group - if it's a harder strike and a wipe happens, expect those players to get kicked immediately.

In raids the responses will be even more varied, and will even more depend on the encounter and group. But as far as LI builds go, pmech was the only one that was ever truly accepted - all the others were at best merely tolerated.

That's ironic considering that the condi shortbow SB was probably one of the easiest to play (and most popular) LI builds for strikes until mech came around. With the downside that it was popular enough to be recognized by a lot of players as a LI build almost immediately.

I havent specifically played an LI ranger build because I have better than 7 thousand hours on my ranger.

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