ANet are going the wrong way with balancing

[Malus.2184]

10 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

The term you're looking for is "diminishing returns," and it is indeed one of the things that this game probably would've benefited from implementing.  Unfortunately, GW2 is coded by 1-year interns and supported by whales and low-effort streamers lol.  The people you are trying to convince would never agree to putting in any work toward this issue.

No, I'm fairly sure that I mean what I said that it should be plain impossible to apply a Boon consecutively. I played WoW for years and diminishing returns did almost nothing since the enounters where it actually mattered where effectively over before the DR and/or players found ways around the DR where they stakcked the stuff untilla certain point wherre it was beter to just let the DR reset itself before reapplying the effect.

DR solves nothing, it only makes the issue less apparent. The only thing that solve anything in this context is a hard limitation instead of a soft one. PvP, in general, across multiple games needs more hard limitations. The devs have just got stuck in this faulty mindset that soft limitations will solve everything.

[Sylvia.4870]

  I wonder if  Destruction of the Empowered, one of the traits in Discipline Traitline can be against a foe who has many boons. I barely see anyone use it. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Sylvia.4870

[Swagg.9236]

2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

No, I'm fairly sure that I mean what I said that it should be plain impossible to apply a Boon consecutively. I played WoW for years and diminishing returns did almost nothing since the enounters where it actually mattered where effectively over before the DR and/or players found ways around the DR where they stakcked the stuff untilla certain point wherre it was beter to just let the DR reset itself before reapplying the effect.

DR solves nothing, it only makes the issue less apparent. The only thing that solve anything in this context is a hard limitation instead of a soft one. PvP, in general, across multiple games needs more hard limitations. The devs have just got stuck in this faulty mindset that soft limitations will solve everything.

I don't know if you're talking about Blizzard or Anet at the end there lol, but frankly, GW2 has absolutely zero limitations on stacking (even soft ones).  That is a huge issue, and I agree that hard limits are probably way better in GW2's case than just soft ones, but there's also the idea that the boon system in general is EXTREMELY shallow and can no longer provide the room to contain this game's massive amount of bloat.

If each class had command over certain boons, and if more than just might stacked in intensity (I still can't believe that's how this game works lmao), it'd probably be a lot more difficult to maintain full boon stacks in oppressive amounts.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Sylvia.4870 said:

  I wonder if  Destruction of the Empowered, one of the traits in Discipline Traitline can be against a foe who has many boons. I barely see anyone use it. 

That's because the condition cleanse on Brawler's Recovery is needed. But after the Defense & Berserker rework perhaps more warriors will run DotE instead.

[Bazsi.2734]

5 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Your argument assumes that the Grace period would be an universal constant. I've expressed before that it would be dependant on the source of the Boon, and it could also depend on the type of the Boon.
Might has limited impact until it gets to a certain point of the stack. The Boons with a stack count has a limited impact. The Boons that have a duration increase generally have a massive impact on actual gameplay and should definitely be limited in how often they could be applied because right now, some Professions can apply them to have more or less a constant uptime, even in PvP where there's no Boon Duration attribute.

Oh so different debuff duration for every boon from every source. Wow that's... holy s**t. Not going into the techincal details with spagetti code but... no. Just no.

The problem you seek to solve is "people have boons though". I get you see it as a problem, but try to understand, it's not actually one. The game is balanced around boons being everywhere. You can adjust individual skills/traits giving out boons to finetune it... asking for a global mechanic that just turns this all off is <REDACTED>.
 

[Malus.2184]

35 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Oh so different debuff duration for every boon from every source. Wow that's... holy s**t. Not going into the techincal details with spagetti code but... no. Just no.

The problem you seek to solve is "people have boons though". I get you see it as a problem, but try to understand, it's not actually one. The game is balanced around boons being everywhere. You can adjust individual skills/traits giving out boons to finetune it... asking for a global mechanic that just turns this all off is <REDACTED>.
 

How come it would automatically be spaghetti code. What do you even mean?

Afaik the code is already in the game where you're unable to apply certain things during a given period.

My problme with Boons is that they're too plentiful and impactful in one person and since you have people on top of each other they end up getting spammed. Nothing can stop that. If it was DR then someone would spam their Boons in order to activate the DR in order to throw the match.

[Lucentfir.7430]

8 hours ago, Sylvia.4870 said:

  I wonder if  Destruction of the Empowered, one of the traits in Discipline Traitline can be against a foe who has many boons. I barely see anyone use it. 

The only time you ever use DotE is in WvW playing a a all in damage build, because other than that Brawler's Recovery is too essential against condition builds, though if the targets you hit have protection you're still not going to see crazy numbers. But if it gets stripped, yes Big boi damage. 

[Bazsi.2734]

1 minute ago, Malus.2184 said:

How come it would automatically be spaghetti code. What do you even mean?

Afaik the code is already in the game where you're unable to apply certain things during a given period.

The game has spagetti coding. Things interact with each other in ways they absolutely shouldn't. Just one example: An update that only touched ranger managed to set elementalist earth dagger auto attack to infinite range. Touching decade old stuff written by developers who have since long moved on is something the current devs put off as long as possible. And changing how boon application works is something that hasn't been changed since the betas.

5 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

My problme with Boons is that they're too plentiful and impactful in one person and since you have people on top of each other they end up getting spammed. Nothing can stop that. If it was DR then someone would spam their Boons in order to activate the DR in order to throw the match.

Yes, your problem with boons is that people have them. We got that. But that is not going to change. Your input to the conversation about how to fine-tune boon applications/durations is "hey guys lets make boons scarce and unreliable". Cool, thanks, also no.

[Downstate.4697]

Being condi spammed is a l2p issue.

I thought that giving a 2s cc immunity would be good for cc spam but that just enables mobile builds even further.

Boon spam is only bad when it comes to quickness which they seem to be addressing by removing quickness scrapper. Id appreciate might going down to 20 power stack instead of 30 as well, but thats just me.

I think you are on the right track that spam is not a good interaction in pvp but adding grace periods is not the way to do it.

[Sahne.6950]

18 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

might going down to 20 power stack instead of 30 as well, but thats just me.

Thats not just you! changing the might mechanic would fix alot of the "cele-problems" that wvw roaming has.

i suggested changing it to a flat % bonus, same as vulnerability works for example.

[Malus.2184]

On 9/22/2022 at 5:36 PM, Bazsi.2734 said:

The game has spagetti coding. Things interact with each other in ways they absolutely shouldn't. Just one example: An update that only touched ranger managed to set elementalist earth dagger auto attack to infinite range. Touching decade old stuff written by developers who have since long moved on is something the current devs put off as long as possible. And changing how boon application works is something that hasn't been changed since the betas.

Yes, your problem with boons is that people have them. We got that. But that is not going to change. Your input to the conversation about how to fine-tune boon applications/durations is "hey guys lets make boons scarce and unreliable". Cool, thanks, also no.

So, your argument went from, "this would be unbalanced" to "this would never work with the code b3ecause I say so based on past experience which I apply to something that has never ben t ried before." That's pivoting, be consistent in your arguments instead of just jumping to the next when I counter-argue them.

The last is a clear strawman as I've never expressed an issue with people having boons. If I had an issue with that I would be calling for a nerf to CDs. My issue is with how quickly they can be applied and how fast the stack.

Perhaps a solution to that would be that some Boons never stack in duration. The latest application merely replaces the old duration. That would help the issue of Boons flying around with no thinking at all and merely using.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 9/24/2022 at 3:56 PM, Malus.2184 said:

So, your argument went from, "this would be unbalanced" to "this would never work with the code b3ecause I say so based on past experience which I apply to something that has never ben t ried before." That's pivoting, be consistent in your arguments instead of just jumping to the next when I counter-argue them.

The last is a clear strawman as I've never expressed an issue with people having boons.

Aww, look at you debatebro-ing it up on me. It's cute. Saying I strawmanned you while strawmanning me so hard it's not even funny. So apart from "no i never said any of this", I dunno what meaningful I could comment here. Read my posts again I guess?

On 9/24/2022 at 3:56 PM, Malus.2184 said:

 

 ...I've never expressed an issue with people having boons.... 
...My issue is with how quickly they can be applied and how fast the stack...

You just accused me of making this "strawmen", and you proceed to type it out again. How would people have boons if they couldn't reapply and stack them? Having a boonshare build around you would prevent your own cooldowns and traits from taking effect... playing boon support would be griefing at that point. I can't see no strawmen here, only a bleeding human tied to a makeshift wooden cross. Can I let him down, or do you want to stuff some more silage into his mouth?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Idea is mostly impossible as they'd have to rework the entire game to be very class / role specific.  Think old class based / turn based games like Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Ogre--you'd literally have to have one job do one thing and then combine them into a team.

For GW2 opposite has been true and as of late extremely true when they give all boons to all classes in some form or another.  This means unless you are mic'd up and extremely careful you would absolutely ruin any game mode (not just sPvP or competitive, but end-game PvE as well).  

The answer for GW2 has been stated, we need more access to strips/corrupts.  Somewhere between the buried and old Disco scourge levels.  Counterplay is needed, same with unblockable and current access to mass active defense through block/evade/invuln spam.

[Malus.2184]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:43 PM, Bazsi.2734 said:

Aww, look at you debatebro-ing it up on me. It's cute. Saying I strawmanned you while strawmanning me so hard it's not even funny. So apart from "no i never said any of this", I dunno what meaningful I could comment here. Read my posts again I guess?

You just accused me of making this "strawmen", and you proceed to type it out again. How would people have boons if they couldn't reapply and stack them? Having a boonshare build around you would prevent your own cooldowns and traits from taking effect... playing boon support would be griefing at that point. I can't see no strawmen here, only a bleeding human tied to a makeshift wooden cross. Can I let him down, or do you want to stuff some more silage into his mouth?

Then explain how saying that it was strawman is a strawman becaus if your criticism was honest then you'd call it the "fallacy fallacy" instead of just throwing my words back at in a display similar to "I'm rubber and you're glue, everything you say bounce of me and sticks to you."

[Sahne.6950]

58 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Then explain how saying that it was strawman is a strawman becaus if your criticism was honest then you'd call it the "fallacy fallacy" instead of just throwing my words back at in a display similar to "I'm rubber and you're glue, everything you say bounce of me and sticks to you."

your idea is bad, as it will lead to completly random boonuptimes.

it is bad because:

-Boons are proccing in ways that cant be controlled, e.g. traits.

-people dont know eachothers builds and therefore dont know what boons they can share and what boons they need.

-it would require you to be in voicecom to coordinate your boons. If you dont coordinate your boons, you will literally screw over your teammates with every single boon.

-BALANCE NIGHTMARE

-yet again a barrier of entry for newer players, which is the last thing we need.

-it doesnt fix any problems, it just makes everything unreliable.

 

 

 

 

 

Solution:    GIVE PEOPLE MORE BOONRIP!

 

 

its so simple, yet you stick to your completly absurd idea xD Just let it go.... you had a few "high quality" players talking to you here (not including me, I IS Nub :3 ). You can 100% believe them, that your idea is hot garbage.

 

[Malus.2184]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

your idea is bad, as it will lead to completly random boonuptimes.

it is bad because:

-Boons are proccing in ways that cant be controlled, e.g. traits.

-people dont know eachothers builds and therefore dont know what boons they can share and what boons they need.

-it would require you to be in voicecom to coordinate your boons. If you dont coordinate your boons, you will literally screw over your teammates with every single boon.

-BALANCE NIGHTMARE

-yet again a barrier of entry for newer players, which is the last thing we need.

-it doesnt fix any problems, it just makes everything unreliable.

 

 

 

 

 

Solution:    GIVE PEOPLE MORE BOONRIP!

 

 

its so simple, yet you stick to your completly absurd idea xD Just let it go.... you had a few "high quality" players talking to you here (not including me, I IS Nub :3 ). You can 100% believe them, that your idea is hot garbage.

 

NNow that is actually a cproblem that can be applied to constructive analysis even though it's delivered in a less constructive way.

As opposed to what you think more boonrip is a bad solution since it can lead to add meta biulds and meta breaker builds.

A better solution, based on something you brought up earlier, no stacking of boon duration in PvP and WvW, new applications would just rest the one given, like Might.

[Ragnar.4257]

Why you making this so complicated?

If there are too many boons, then reduce the number of skills/traits that apply boons.

Don't come up with some clunky overly complex mechanic (which has absolutely zero chance of ever being implemented, so I dunno why you're even arguing about it).

Edited September 28, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Bazsi.2734]

5 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Then explain how saying that it was strawman is a strawman becaus if your criticism was honest then you'd call it the "fallacy fallacy" instead of just throwing my words back at in a display similar to "I'm rubber and you're glue, everything you say bounce of me and sticks to you."

No we are not doing this. 😄

We can converse about your idea though. As Sahne.6950 already explained to you, your idea would make boon application unreliable. And would destroy the entire game balance along the way, and making the game basicly unplayable. The top 0.1% raiders will figure out how to rotate boons in the most efficient manner, the top 1-5% will copy them while the rest would just.... not.
They would stand next to you and debuff you will all kinds of stuff so when you pop your big cooldown, you get denied. Or not, who knows. It will be random. Maybe in time people will learn to not use boons to avoid hurting each other. Or not, who knows.
Good thing I do not have to know, when the outcome is evidently not good, I don't have to care how bad it exactly is. We make changes to better a game, not to hurt it.
 

So if you want to still talk about your idea, you can make your case why your idea is good even though it has the consequences I just typed out... or you can strawman the fallacy fallacy. If you loathe being productive, I recommend the latter. That's also the best way to convince me not to talk to you ever again.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Malus.2184]

16 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

They would stand next to you and debuff you will all kinds of stuff so when you pop your big cooldown, you get denied. Or not, who knows. It will be random. Maybe in time people will learn to not use boons to avoid hurting each other. Or not, who knows.

I'll just point this out. You're presenting a counter-argument that imåplies that I meant this should be implemented in all game modes instead of just in PvP (and WvW) that the context implies. Be honest, this is extremely dishonest debating.

[Sahne.6950]

Never in my life, have i seen someone that is as resistant to feedback and logical arguments than you @Malus.2184.

why even start a thread, when your not here to discuss and implement feedback into your idea. People are pointing out very valuable things here. Why it will not work... they are pointing out restirictions regarding the engine and coding , they are pointing out, that it would need a complete overhaul of the combat system/traits/weapons to make it somehow work..... BUT YOUR NOT LISTENING AT ALL.

People are explaining, they are reasoning, They find arguments..... WE ARE REALLY TRYING.....   but nothing gets thru to you...  im done here XD

 

Please just listen to the people here. This Baszi dude knows what hes talking about.... just listen to him. And dont flee yourself in this weird argumentative state, when in reality theres nothing to argue about. The idea is bad, and implementing it is simply not possible, atleast not with the current traits and weapons. period.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Malus.2184]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Never in my life, have i seen someone that is as resistant to feedback and logical arguments than you @Malus.2184

 Because there are no such thing as a logical argument. There are logical observations where objective impressions are made. How you feel about those impressions and thus the argument you form is the emotional input. Combining these two results in a either a rational or irrational output (the argument) based on the ratio of the two applied. When people make 'logical arguments' what they're really doing is making an emotional argument that they reason to themselves is "logical actually." This can be shown in how you utterly ignored that I wrote that you had a good point earlier and that inspired by that it would be better if all Boons applications just renewed the duration in PvP and WvW rather than adding to it, if the new duration was longer. In essence they worked kinda like Might.

This would allow for spamming, which would be both possible and rather daft, there would be no case of intentionally ruining things for others, and ther ewould be no unintentionally ruining things for yourself by random applications..

However, it would end the insane Boon durations where people have Protection, or similar, in what seems for ages.

[Bazsi.2734]

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

 Because there are no such thing as a logical argument.

Props to you dude, for a while I thought you were actually serious. Like... for actual days. I need better <REDACTED> detectors it seems. Consider me owned!

[Malus.2184]

17 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Props to you dude, for a while I thought you were actually serious. Like... for actual days. I need better <REDACTED> detectors it seems. Consider me owned!

You being unaware of this has no impact on it actually existing (https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10161/6221/enduring?sequence=1)

You make a decision when you share a logical arguments or even have one, which means that in themselves there are incidental emotions affecting your bias and behaviour. You also clipped out the rest which said that arguments can either be rational or irrational in order to make me seem daft, ssomething which incidently proives what I just said about logical decisions since it would be logical to include the entire quote or at least mark with "..." that there's more either before or after it that you've clipped out so people can look up the souce themselves if they're interested in seeing the full context.

It would also be logical to address that I've listened to feedback and proposes an alternate solution that would be more in line with what you've said. You also ignored this in order to selectively quote me, this is also called a strawman since you essentially invent the opposition and their views.

This is the full post in context, for those interested.

20 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

 Because there are no such thing as a logical argument. There are logical observations where objective impressions are made. How you feel about those impressions and thus the argument you form is the emotional input. Combining these two results in a either a rational or irrational output (the argument) based on the ratio of the two applied. When people make 'logical arguments' what they're really doing is making an emotional argument that they reason to themselves is "logical actually." This can be shown in how you utterly ignored that I wrote that you had a good point earlier and that inspired by that it would be better if all Boons applications just renewed the duration in PvP and WvW rather than adding to it, if the new duration was longer. In essence they worked kinda like Might.

This would allow for spamming, which would be both possible and rather daft, there would be no case of intentionally ruining things for others, and ther ewould be no unintentionally ruining things for yourself by random applications..

However, it would end the insane Boon durations where people have Protection, or similar, in what seems for ages.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Bazsi.2734]

5 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

You being unaware of this has no impact on it actually existing (https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10161/6221/enduring?sequence=1)

You make a decision when you share a logical arguments or even have one, which means that in themselves there are incidental emotions affecting your bias and behaviour. You also clipped out the rest which said that arguments can either be rational or irrational in order to make me seem daft, ssomething which incidently proives what I just said about logical decisions since it would be logical to include the entire quote or at least mark with "..." that there's more either before or after it that you've clipped out so people can look up the souce themselves if they're interested in seeing the full context.

It would also be logical to address that I've listened to feedback and proposes an alternate solution that would be more in line with what you've said. You also ignored this in order to selectively quote me, this is also called a strawman since you essentially invent the opposition and their views.

This is the full post in context, for those interested.

 

Oh no, I got owned again. Keep replying to me, we are being super productive. (Not gonna lie, I stopped reading 2 sentences in)

On a completely unrelated note, the idea outlined in the OP is bad. If only there was someone who could explain why.... 😄

Edited September 30, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Malus.2184]

5 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Oh no, I got owned again. Keep replying to me, we are being super productive. (Not gonna lie, I stopped reading 2 sentences in)

On a completely unrelated note, the idea outlined in the OP is bad. If only there was someone who could explain why.... 😄

I've been trying to tell you that I listtened to what you had to say even though it was unproductive and came up with a better alternative that I do believe you've read else there would be no reason to tell me you stopped so early, which is a weird flec since you're bragging about having a poor attention span.