Quality of life request/suggestion: Weaver and Unravel

[Ban Daur.4831]

Elemenatlist what do you think if weaver would get unravel utility as an F5 skill? I think it would fit thematicly and help the utility side of weaver for key situations where you need access to: survival tools, CC skills, projectile block, evades, healing and/or if the encounter allows just raw extra burst damage. I would not want it to become part of the normal damage rotation for weaver but to make it easier access for key utilities which are tied to weapon skills to help weaver overcome encounter mechanics in a hurry. I think it would also make weaver more fun, easier and useful to play having that little bit of extra/faster utility access.

 

(Ranting to justify adding it, you may skip this part):

You may ask then why not use unravel then as slotted utility, because from what i understand to remain damage competitive you need to run damage for all your utilities. You may ask why not run fresh air instead: not all weaver builds run that, though I do like it when it allows you easier access to those 2nd slot skills on other attunements. You may ask why not predict the encounter mechanic and be ready in whatever attunement you need to be for the mechanic: because sometimes staying or preparing a specific attunement or combo for things is a huge damage loss or sometimes things happen at random and you are too slow to contribute to breakbar damage and feel bad about it or you might be on the floor enjoying being rubbed.

 

I don't know in what form unravel would be best for weaver as a F5 skill but I would be fine having it added whitout: ammo, boons and whit a relativly long cooldown to keep it balanced. This way it would not remove the specialization trade off completly either and hopefully keep unravel for use only in key situations. Is this a bad or a good idea and if good in what form unravel could be for weaver as an F5? Or should it remain in the choice utility skillbar?

[Stallic.2397]

This has been requested for a while; practically ever since weaver came into the game. I would agree to the suggestion and request an F5. For a Dagger weaver, many of your strongest skills are on slot #3. 

 

But it probably won't happen because Anet wants Weavers to play sword primarily which doesn't need unravel. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 hours ago, Stallic.2397 said:

This has been requested for a while; practically ever since weaver came into the game. I would agree to the suggestion and request an F5. For a Dagger weaver, many of your strongest skills are on slot #3. 

 

But it probably won't happen because Anet wants Weavers to play sword primarily which doesn't need unravel. 

You could have fooled me, since sword currently has the lowest DPS benchmarks of all weapons. 

[Ban Daur.4831]

Yeah I'm kind of new in the forums and was not playing back when PoF was realeased where unravel might have been already discussed.  I figured to bring up the topic for this now as some reworks are happening whit upcoming balance patches and share this view again. Also i hope it would be not too difficult a change to make. I don't know if it would help the playrate of the class that much but maybe add that little bit of ease of use.

 

As for weapon skill use yeah: skill 3 access can be crucial for dagger to have those evades and air 3 cc skill. But whit unravel we would get access to those next attunement's sweet off hand weapon skills as well. If it were dagger, focus or staff or any weapon set for that matter. Having to wait 4-8s to line up for cc skill use or to survive a mechanic whit a condition clear, evade or obsidian flesh is way too long sometimes for the situations especially in a dynamic game like gw2. (depending of course if alacrity/arcane/weave self)

 

Yeah side note for sword favorite weapon for me which actually made me pick up weaver, as it had that battlemage vibe. Sad to see it be so low damage in comparison to other choices like scepter and staff which have popped up. Well gave me an excuse to try out those weapons more now but do hope sword set will get some look at as well.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Ban Daur.4831

[soulknight.9620]

Although its not a bad idea, but there are balancing issues related to this change. Weaver tradeoffs the "easy" access of its 3-5 skills on demand for powerfull double skills and faster attunement swaps. And as people mentioned above some of the strongest skills are on 3-5. Ive played around with unravel and there is a cool synergy with attunement swaps. U can instantly swap to any attunement regardless of the cd. So that could result in a very burst heavy builds for d/d for example or an easy access to save mechanics (for ex.focus earth 5). Atm you have to sacrifice a utility slot for this and thats kinda fair. Giving it baseline would probably make it a bit op, or it should have a rly long cd to function more like "oh i f up my rotation need to reset" button. I think anet needs to open up some of the ele utility slots for actuall support skills like unravel by diverting some of the dps coming from utilities to traits/weapons and thus making it possible to take support utilities and not butcher ur dps while doing so. 

[Serephen.3420]

On 9/21/2022 at 1:16 PM, Stallic.2397 said:

This has been requested for a while; practically ever since weaver came into the game. I would agree to the suggestion and request an F5. For a Dagger weaver, many of your strongest skills are on slot #3. 

 

But it probably won't happen because Anet wants Weavers to play sword primarily which doesn't need unravel. 

Except sword has greatly fallen out of meta. Condi weaver uses scepter now rather than sword. Would be nice if they revived sword has the more powerful power dps option for weaver and made that viable again. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Serephen.3420

[Sahne.6950]

21 hours ago, Ban Daur.4831 said:

Having to wait 4-8s to line up for cc skill use or to survive a mechanic whit a condition clear, evade or obsidian flesh is way too long sometimes for the situations especially in a dynamic game like gw2.

Thats what seperates good from Bad weavers. Having the right attunements up at the right time.

 

While i somewhat like the idea... because... why not... just give weaver something so its more appealing to the broad masses. But then again..... how about.... you just slot Unravel!?

But in general... doubleattuning is not something you should do.... There is very little reason to fully attune except when running dagger.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I think it's one, if not the best, utility skill on weaver.
It's not necessarily usefull for all weapons (like sword which is the popular weapon for pvp) and I get why most of players don't want to try it : it add more complexity to weaver, more APM; but it enhances all synergies in builds -all effects on weapon swap (sunspot, arcane traits, healing ripple, cleansing water, but also sigils- and of course allows huge combo of skills, especially with dagger or scepter, fast access to off hand skills or magnetic aura or geyser on staff etc.

 

This is a real  new mechanic rather than a common utility skill and I get why people would like it on F5.

But I'm pretty sure if you do so with no boon and longer CD it still won't help the casual weavers while you'll just kill high ceiling builds that recquire this mechanic.

 

Just buff it :
Longer duration ; 5sec causes players to panic, 6sec would let them a bit more time to think and practice their rotation.

Small barrier on element swap, allow to double attune even if already fully attune (to proc twice effects) or longer boons, stronger boons (quickness) ...

[Zunki.3916]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Thats what seperates good from Bad weavers. Having the right attunements up at the right time.

 

While i somewhat like the idea... because... why not... just give weaver something so its more appealing to the broad masses. But then again..... how about.... you just slot Unravel!?

But in general... doubleattuning is not something you should do.... There is very little reason to fully attune except when running dagger.

And in PvE one of the dps traits forces you into double attuning, but that's a limited use case.

[Sahne.6950]

14 minutes ago, Zunki.3916 said:

And in PvE one of the dps traits forces you into double attuning, but that's a limited use case.

you mostly use this when running freshair, because you can doubleattune instantly....  i think 😄

 

i dont pve ^_^

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

There's a lot of situations you want to double attune or no CD on attunement swap.
You're scepter/focus fresh air, you see good opportunity to use gale you don't care if you're not in fire/air; you use unravel for dragon's tooth + phoenix.

You're staff and the zerg just moved in a corridor, you don't care if you're not in x/fire, you use unravel for meteor shower + you can reattune to keep element's of rage. Or you have a ranger/deadeye in your back whil you cast meteor shower > magnetic aura.
You're d/d weaver you don't care of you're not in fire/air, you can use updraft anytime and chain with burning speed, ring of fire... Same for schoking aura if you get backstabbed. Same against reaper you can flee the shroud quickly with burning speed and earthen rush, or CC just before the #3 stab. Spam water for cleanses...
Etc.

 

It's a bit short to resume weaver by "Having the right attunements up at the right time. " It is important to step by this consideration (Ironically I'm pretty sure it's even easier to learn fresh air weaver by learning all combos (Earthen synergy+ plasma beam or fracturing strike etc) without the trait and the temptation to spam air).
But in competitive modes you can't just think about your perfect rotation in a perfect situation or overthink 4-8 sec in advance about your needs, sometimes you have to react instantly for your own survival as for a fast kill. No need to explain the issue if you get Chill and see longer CD on attunement swap.
It's a bit close to engie kits : unravel doesn't fill a slot you could use for a "better utility" like BS or cleanse, damage ... On contrary you already think about those utilities in your traits and weapon skills, and unravel is the shortcut. But yeah it needs practice.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Sahne.6950]

19 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

in competitive modes you can't just think about your perfect rotation in a perfect situation or overthink 4-8 sec in advance about your needs,

That is EXACTLY what you have to do in competetive modes.....  You have to think a few seconds ahead of time to make the right calls.

Your fighting a soulbeast and he is on GS for 7-8 seconds right now? Better swap to earth right now, so i can attune to air when he finally goes for that bow. He starts to rapidfire, but i have my earth 4 ready when he is going for his LB burst, so i am able to reflect it. The Slb will go for a evade to not get hit by his own arrows, and i can use that evadeframe to punish his landing with my air 2 jump, i am then right in his face to CC him with air/earth3 and can attune to fire for a quick pyrovortex burst followed by air 4 for yet another projectilehate, to completly render him useless for the 9 seconds that he will be stuck on bow. 

If you try and ready up the reflect when he already swapped to bow... it will be too late. You have to think 3-4 seconds ahead of time.

Stuff like that.... is sadly required to play Weaver in higher elo.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

That is EXACTLY what you have to do in competetive modes.....  You have to think a few seconds ahead of time to make the right calls.

Your fighting a soulbeast and he is on GS for 7-8 seconds right now? Better swap to earth right now, so i can attune to air when he finally goes for that bow. He starts to rapidfire, but i have my earth 4 ready when he is going for his LB burst. i can then jump on him with air 2, CC him with 3 and can attune to fire for a quick pyrovortex burst or to use the air 4 for yet another projectilehate, to completly render him useless for the 9 seconds that he will be stuck on bow. 

If you try and ready up the reflect when he already swapped to bow... it will be too late. You have to think 3-4 seconds ahead of time.

Stuff like that.... is sadly required to play Weaver in higher elo.

 

This is preparation, this isn't reaction.

+ I can do the same with or without unravel.

[Sahne.6950]

6 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

This is preparation, this isn't reaction.

+ I can do the same with or without unravel.

if i really find myself in the shtter, and have to bridge time to ready up a certain skill, you just have to burn ToF followed by a dodge. This buys alot of time, which is normally enough for me.

you should normally juggle air and earth if your not going for a combo. If you juggle those 2 you will have a answer to most things. you will always have a projectilehate ready and or a evadeframe / CC.... + you will have swift and prot

also i play with ToF, primordial and, STONERESSONANCE. Stoneressonance is another panicbutton to cover you from damage should you be in bad attunements.

 

but i think this thread is mostly about pve... so those things dont apply xD

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

48 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

if i really find myself in the shtter, and have to bridge time to ready up a certain skill, you just have to burn ToF followed by a dodge. This buys alot of time, which is normally enough for me.

That's why you underestimate Unravel.
What if you're not fighting the soulbeast, but the soulbeast comes in your back ? Did you prepare for this in the same time you're fighting an other class or already 1v2 etc?
Obviously not; no one did. But unravel gives you more responses to this situation than you'll have with any BS or other utility skill. (of course keep at least one BS in the bar if you get cc... )

And may be even other builds or traits, or spec or class. This isn't about to tell everyone to play the same build, that unravel is easy to play for all and slot in the skillbar, or that weaver has no issue otherwise.
But clearly most of weavers stick at a level of performance, they close themself in one template (they earnt with blood and tears I don't denie)  and  they haven't understand the potential of weaver, they underestimate unravel.
I played a lot in pvp and wvw back in time, and I won almost all duels against elementalists because of unravel : I was just faster, more reactive, with more skills. (Except some fresh-air weavers, it's hard to beat them with a melee weaver and I don't really master scepter enough) And the same guys at the end of the week were also stronger because of unravel.

 

When I see a post about "Making unravel F5" or "Change it for a damage skill" etc I undestand they just want more accessibility to weaver, easier mechanic or ergonomy ... and they are right, but clearly they don't get the point with this skill in particular  and how they'll lower the skill ceiling and divertsity if we listen to them.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Ban Daur.4831]

Yeah when I opened this topic I was mainly focusing on the pve side of things but I do realise this change would effect the competitive modes as well. This change could be pve exclusive as well to prevent overt power creep for weaver in PvP and not reduce the skill expression, build diversity and skill ceiling. But what I had in mind whit the long cooldown to have on the unravel would only enable the weaver player to use it once per phase in instanced content like fractals/strikes/raids to enable them to contribute to breakbars or to survive conditions and large aoe areas like in 98cm if you were to fail in positioning. The cooldown example could be from 60-120s so it was used only for those emergencies.

 

As for pvp side the cooldown could be similarly long if it were to be added so you could only use it once per fight for a duel to help survive a +1 at a side node. Or for roaming fresh air scepter weaver to enable one damage burst. Think this was the build (scepter) that used unravel in the utility bar to enable that fast burst damage and this change would effect this build the most. From what I understand and have seen the build struggles whit survival a lot and has fallen out of favor a bit. Perhaps this could help the build a bit to allow it to slot another defensive utility for survival or more damage if you wanted to go crazy but yeah that is where the balancing problem comes in and smarter heads whit experience and math need to step in.

 

As a side note about adding damage to supporting utilities. Yeah that approach could work as well to solve the same problem and we have examples of these whit other classes that can slot passive signets whit damage attributes and that enable useful utility on the active. Few examples: Bane signet, Signet of Midnight, Signet of Domination, Signet of Agility and many others. Those utilities being stun breaks, cc or condition clear while providing damage boost on the passive. But that topic might require it's own thread and I belive it's been requested and talked about similarly in the past like unravel.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Ban Daur.4831

[Ban Daur.4831]

Also want to tell some some experiences I have seen as well about the elementalist players or those whom struggle whit it, try it out and then drop it. Some of them were friends, guildies and others public lfg gamers. I know these issues as seasoned players you know are overcome whit experience, proper build, traitline choices, positioning and understanding of your skills/rotation/combos. And I'm pretty sure you have seen other people whom have tried elementalist struggle whit it as well and that is why we pick the class to welcome the challenge of course. Or for the cool visual effects hah.

 

But too often I have seen and heard the elementalist players struggle so much whit it that they been kicked out of groups or asked to reroll to another spec/build. One such experience was in W2 Slothasaur a tempest player was trying to play the current iteration of the heal tempest build and you can guess how that went. They failed at every aspect that is asked of them to heal, condition clear and provide alacrity (They could do only around 30% uptime). The comm asked them go dps this time around and the role was filled whit ham. (Please make alacrity baseline so tempest players can pick the healing grandmaster)

 

Going futher into past before EoD there was a friend who wanted to try out the new hybrid weaver build whit sword in fractals and they really stuggled whit positioning to avoid aoes/condition and to deal damage having to be fully melee range whit a low hp pool. He did give it a good try but after downing so many times whit it and feeling unable to contribute as much as he wanted would promptly switch to a scourge to overcome the mechanics.

 

One more short story from public lfg strike: mai trin CM training a dps tempest player was trying it out and I'm guessing they were struggling to do their damage rotation while dealing whit mechanics which resulted in the favorite pass time of elem players floor tanking. Comm kicked them out as a result even though it was training. Yeah it was CM I know you should know your class/spec going into harder content.

 

It is so rare to see elementalist players whom perform well on their chosen spec/role and also decide to stick whit it to learn. But even on the high end those players whom are competent or even mastered the class/specs/roles idk do you feel rewarded and how often do you feel like that you have the tools to deal whit mechanics whitout huge sacrefices to your normal damage/heal/support builds. I know you can build around each encounter but having some quality of life would be nice or perhaps not as elementalist can be hard class to balance.

 

Sorry for the rambling and these downer stories. There are some good ones as well where a friend decided to pick fire weaver for pvp and climbed from silver to g2-g3 and were happy about the experience. But yeah often times these stories have ended whit a bad experience.