Story direction is a little...political/ideological (spoilers) - returning player

[Mykhel.6532]

Anyone else get this vibe?

 

I'm not trolling or trying to get people to flame... but I've noticed this happening over the past few living world expansions. I'm in End of Dragons Act 2 and I just came back to the game, going through PoF full story and entire living world season 3 again. I loved it. There's some events that could be political/ideological in nature, but they do such a good job with the development of characters and the story that you just don't care that much.

 

However, then you get to the Icebrood Saga. It starts off ok... but then quickly gets into the political/ideological route with the "us vs. them" mentality with the Charr emulating certain political movements. This quickly devolves into the delusion of Bangar thinking he can control an Elder Dragon. This is absurd. Every race on Tyria knows that no one can control an elder Dragon and with widespread news of what Aurene is, it's not very believeable that Bangar thinks the Commander controls Aurene. It's very far-fetched. It really feels this plotline was created just to insert political/ideological movements into the story. I believe the strongest evidence of this (though there are MANY examples) is the DIRECT line from Logan saying "we will be on the right side of history," which is a notable line in politics today. I was so taken back by this I had to return to the chat log to be sure it was what I heard. I heard right.

 

Next, let's talk about the characters. I don't want to assume, but it really feels like the story writers hate male characters.

Starting with the new characters introduced, we meet Ryland, Crecia, Bangar, Efram, Malice, Jhavi, and Gorrik to name the main ones. Let's begin from Episode 1: Whisper in the Dark. Immediately, we find the Vigil base ransacked and nearly everyone dead. Almorra and Jhavi (both women) are betrayed by Torrin and Olar (both men) who have succumbed to Jormag's influence as a result of the Fraenir Shaman's (male) actions. Then in episode 2, you meet the Kodan who have lost their voice. Cloudkeeper (male) barely--if at all--"leads" his clan because their Voice (female) was lost to Jormag and she was the only piece holding them together. You progress through the story and only because of the commander can he carry on... but not before basically saying he misses her and doesn't know if he can do it without her.

 

Now we get to Episode 3 with the focus back on the Charr. Smodur the Unflinching is described as a brilliant engineer and architect, who has encountered many battles over his many years... but all we get to see is a completely irrational and ridiculous character who takes unbelievable actions for very little reason other than "because I know best," or "because I want it." Everything from maliciously killing other Charr by taking advantage of the Commander, to needlessly killing a hostage when they had Ryland on the ropes, ready to compromise. He's further shown to be incompetent by his constant 'Hit them head on' talking. The Iron legion is about force and tactics. All it seems is he's a dumb brute who only uses direct force to win. Then, after all his stupidity, he gets assassinated in complete incompetence with no more than a side scene. And then who replaces him? Mia Kindleshot (female). Bangar, the imperator of the BLOOD legion (you know, the literal experts in traditional combat) is completely feckless, getting bested by every adversary he encounters, but somehow is leading this vicious revolution of Charr... whose entire culture is based on physical prowess and power. Why? Because he's a good orator? That's not at all what Charr respond to... they respond to power... of which he NEVER demonstrates... even being bested by Almorra in their final encounter, leaving it to Ryland to finish her off. He's blatantly racist to the other races of Tyria for no other reason than "we're better," based on "history" (which really only involves humans) ignoring the past decade of content involving the races coming together to defeat Elder Dragons. I guess he just missed all that stuff, huh?

 

So then we take a look at the other 2 imperators. Malice is a bad kitten from beginning to end offering wisdom and a personality fit for the Ash Legion. She's competent and is complimented even by the Commander when she vanishes during one of the events. Efram isn't even technically an imperator because of the Flame Legion's recent return, but his personality is weak at best only showing any leadership when he argues with Smodur about the path forward. The rest of the time he takes orders literally saying something to the effect of "we'll do anything to fit back in and make up for things," which is understandable to a certain degree, but not fitting of a Charr Imperator, regardless of their new "trial" period.

 

Now we get to the Dragons of this story: Primordus and Jormag. Let's start with Jormag. For no reason whatsoever... Jormag is referred to as "they" despite having a feminine voice and describing Primordus as her brother. This is ridiculous. If somewhere along the line a character had mentioned Dragons didn't have a gender or sex or whatever, this may have been understandable. This was totally an insert for the pronoun debate in real life...why? It doesn't fit the lore or anything. It literally isn't even addressed. They just call her "they" for no reason at all! Then, you have the intelligence factor. Jormag (feminine) is hyper-intelligent, calculating, deceptive, cunning, wise, and alluring. Primordus is a neanderthal, brutish monster that they just should have had him say "SMASH! CRUSH! DEATH!" as his only dialogue... except he doesn't have any dialogue. He's there for one event and then gone.

 

Finally, the new expansion... let's start with the main guys first... so Gorrik. He's a brilliant Asura who works well with Taimi, had a great story arc with Blish, but is a total coward. However, now his character seems to have become an exposition machine that compliments everything Joon (female) has done with Jade tech. He's completely fooled into getting caught by an old love interest and has become very emotional with the events with Ankka. Next, Minister Yi, which is the most stereotypical, politically/ideologically male antagonist you can imagine. He might as well be wearing a Make Cantha Great Again hat. Openly discriminating against foreigners, pro-isolationist, and introduced as a "mansplainer," during the audience with the Empress. Zero depth and I'm almost to the end of Act 2. Detective Hama is the only other male character who seems to be disinterested in everything. He gives the impression he's lazy or that he hates doing anything really. Now let's look at our ladies. Joon is a brilliant, well-spoken Techie who single-handedly brought Jade-tech into Cantha, making vast advancements in a short period of time. She's also a master swindler, economist, climate activist, and overall amazing person who is independent, well-connected, and can gain special favors/access from the Empress herself. Often has to put Minister Yi in his place. Ankka is another genius Asura who has taken over as Captain of the Aetherblades. She's calculating, deadly, cold, brutal, and technically efficient. She's well-spoken and confident in her abilities and trajectory. She appears to be a great adversary so far. The Empress I've only seen once, but from her interaction with what I can only believe is her right hand man, Minister Yi, she has zero respect for anything he says. Why even have him as a minister?

 

There's a lot more, but I don't want to make it super long... I'm someone who has regularly returned to GW2 for their amazing storytelling, excellent characters, and great cutscenes. I'm not sure what happened in the past few years, but I am seeing a big drop in quality...being replaced by the injection of modern day politics/ideology. None of which I care about. I love Tyria. I want to experience Tyria... not be reminded of the toxic political environment we now live in this world. I'll probably return to this post once I finish the EoD storyline... hopefully with a more positive outlook on their direction. If you made it this far, thanks for reading. Have a great day, everyone.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Mykhel.6532
Forgot to add two of the female characters introduced.

[Xerac.1542]

Let me start off by saying I am not too much into playing the story content itself even though I really like the overall story the game presents. 

 

You raise some interesting points, but have you heard about the phrase art imitates life? 

I see why you would not like to be confronted with the same problems in a game we are facing irl but warring nations/tribes/villages/species have always been a big trope in any story. 

 

Incompetent, misplaced and delusional leaders can make for great stories. And whether they are male or female... Meh. 

I know you are comparing it to the current Hollywood formula of strong female and weak male, which might seem cheesy but not really more cheesy than strong male, weak female we had for years. Good story needs well fleshed out characters sharing the focus, not one being raised into the focus because all others are super lame. 

 

P. S.

I feel like you will be in for a treat at the end of EoD story 

[Scalacious.4139]

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

For no reason whatsoever... Jormag is referred to as "they" despite having a feminine voice and describing Primordus as her brother. This is ridiculous. If somewhere along the line a character had mentioned Dragons didn't have a gender or sex or whatever, this may have been understandable. This was totally an insert for the pronoun debate in real life...why? It doesn't fit the lore or anything. It literally isn't even addressed. They just call her "they" for no reason at all!

Yeah, that came out of nowhere for me as well it, same as with engineer Yao, who everybody refers to as they without ever having been told to do so.

[Kalavier.1097]

40 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

However, then you get to the Icebrood Saga. It starts off ok... but then quickly gets into the political/ideological route with the "us vs. them" mentality with the Charr emulating certain political movements. This quickly devolves into the delusion of Bangar thinking he can control an Elder Dragon. This is absurd. Every race on Tyria knows that no one can control an elder Dragon and with widespread news of what Aurene is, it's not very believeable that Bangar thinks the Commander controls Aurene. It's very far-fetched. It really feels this plotline was created just to insert political/ideological movements into the story. I believe the strongest evidence of this (though there are MANY examples) is the DIRECT line from Logan saying "we will be on the right side of history," which is a notable line in politics today. I was so taken back by this I had to return to the chat log to be sure it was what I heard. I heard right.

It's bought up several times that people honestly do not understand the relationship between Aurene and the commander.

Bangar is an old school, stubborn charr who never wanted to stop fighting humans, but had to because he needed Iron and Ash on his side (or Flame would simply focus attacks on him, and perhaps even risk attacks from Ash or Iron if he attacked humans, considering he would have to invade Ascalon to do hit Ebonhawke or risk the Shiverpeaks to hit Kryta). Since the earliest descriptions of Bangar has existed, as far as I can recall, he has ALWAYS been described as the wildcard imperator, one who would leap to violence and war if given the chance and is the unwilling signer of the treaty/cease fire.

It's quite literally set up to be unclear if Bangar truly believes what he says at the rally about the Commander controlling Aurene, or that Jormag's Whispers have affected his judgement in that regard, or if he's simply not been given the right intel and made bad judgements about it.

Everybody thought the Elder Dragons were forces of nature that could never be convinced or directed. Aurene can be convinced, can be talked to, and appears to be controlled/directed by the commander, even though that's not the truth. It's entirely belivable that Bangar mistook the relationship (especially if the commander isn't Charr, as he wouldn't care to dig into the details of that human's life. Or if Charr *especially blood legion*, some resentment that the Commander hasn't used her to advance Charr goals). Or that he's being mislead with bad intel or whispers. You can see footprints and claw marks on the roof outside his office in the keep.

47 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Starting with the new characters introduced, we meet Ryland, Crecia, Bangar, Efram, Malice, Jhavi, and Gorrik to name the main ones. Let's begin from Episode 1: Whisper in the Dark. Immediately, we find the Vigil base ransacked and nearly everyone dead. Almorra and Jhavi (both women) are betrayed by Torrin and Olar (both men) who have succumbed to Jormag's influence as a result of the Fraenir Shaman's (male) actions. Then in episode 2, you meet the Kodan who have lost their voice. Cloudkeeper (male) barely--if at all--"leads" his clan because their Voice (female) was lost to Jormag and she was the only piece holding them together. You progress through the story and only because of the commander can he carry on... but not before basically saying he misses her and doesn't know if he can do it without her.

And this part is... absolutely not new. The Sons of Svanir from day 1 of GW2 have been noted to hate women, and will outright slaughter any female norn icebrood they find. Jormag doesn't care, but they do.

Two Norn who are in the process of being unsure about their lives, unsure of the path forward (both were part of Braham's failed attempt to kill Jormag) getting convinced that the other side was the right one, and leading the betrayal? That's hardly new in any form of storytelling, at all. The two captives were literally the only ones left alive because Jormag ordered it to be so.

Same thing with the Kodan. Since day 1, we know that Kodan communities are built around the claw and the voice, the two joined leaders of the group. When one dies suddenly (without a replacement, or means to be replaced) the other often suffers severely. Depression or rage are very common in these causes.

50 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Now we get to Episode 3 with the focus back on the Charr. Smodur the Unflinching is described as a brilliant engineer and architect, who has encountered many battles over his many years... but all we get to see is a completely irrational and ridiculous character who takes unbelievable actions for very little reason other than "because I know best," or "because I want it." Everything from maliciously killing other Charr by taking advantage of the Commander, to needlessly killing a hostage when they had Ryland on the ropes, ready to compromise. He's further shown to be incompetent by his constant 'Hit them head on' talking. The Iron legion is about force and tactics. All it seems is he's a dumb brute who only uses direct force to win. Then, after all his stupidity, he gets assassinated in complete incompetence with no more than a side scene. And then who replaces him? Mia Kindleshot (female). Bangar, the imperator of the BLOOD legion (you know, the literal experts in traditional combat) is completely feckless, getting bested by every adversary he encounters, but somehow is leading this vicious revolution of Charr... whose entire culture is based on physical prowess and power. Why? Because he's a good orator? That's not at all what Charr respond to... they respond to power... of which he NEVER demonstrates... even being bested by Almorra in their final encounter, leaving it to Ryland to finish her off. He's blatantly racist to the other races of Tyria for no other reason than "we're better," based on "history" (which really only involves humans) ignoring the past decade of content involving the races coming together to defeat Elder Dragons. I guess he just missed all that stuff, huh?

 

A: Smodur suffers some bad writing yes, but by the time we arrive at the warzone we are directly informed that a LOT of iron legion has defected from the battlefield to join the other side. That would affect his judgement and actions as he's trying to retain control of his own forces and retake the battlefield.  This means that he is also doing stuff others wouldn't be happy with (the searing crystal bomb) because he's trying to gain any advantage, to stop the defections, to stop his battle line from going backwards.

He kills the hostage needlessly, and THAT IS THE POINT. He doesn't want to sit around a table and talk, he wants to smash the uprising, and punish those who abandoned his legion. He sees nothing to be gained by talking to Ryland, an enemy who has been slaughtering legion forces. He probably views it as a useless gesture of two parents a little too attached to their cub.

His replacement is an established figure in the Iron Legion. What does it matter if she's female or male? Charr don't care.

Bangar... getting bested by every adversary? Where does this happen? I recall two fights he's in, one vs Almorra, and one vs the commander. Otherwise, he is leading a very successfully rebellion against the legions.

 

And you've missed the point of Bangar, basing on the last line. Bangar has always been racist. He's always hated the humans. He's the wildcard, the one nobody knows what would happen when the dragon threat is gone, or the flame legion threat is gone. He's never been on the front lines working with humans and asura and sylvari and norn.

That's one of the core themes of Guild wars. Those who remain in their homelands, close to capital tend to behave differently from those who travel. Asura in the priory behave differently and are nicer then Asura who never leave Rata Sum. Charr who live in the blood legion homelands hold different views then warbands who worked with the Vigil or Lion's arch.

58 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

So then we take a look at the other 2 imperators. Malice is a bad kitten from beginning to end offering wisdom and a personality fit for the Ash Legion. She's competent and is complimented even by the Commander when she vanishes during one of the events. Efram isn't even technically an imperator because of the Flame Legion's recent return, but his personality is weak at best only showing any leadership when he argues with Smodur about the path forward. The rest of the time he takes orders literally saying something to the effect of "we'll do anything to fit back in and make up for things," which is understandable to a certain degree, but not fitting of a Charr Imperator, regardless of their new "trial" period.

Efram is literally rebuilding a shattered legion from the ground up and dealing with an incredibly huge amount of bad history with... everybody. Legions and humanity alike.

He's not weak, he offers mercy to the enemy but when rejected will kill them on the field. He is trying to completely rebuild not only his Legion's culture from the ground up, but also rebuild how they interact with the other legions and the world. And given how he's invited to the pavilion with his daughter? I'd say he's on the right track.

 

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Now we get to the Dragons of this story: Primordus and Jormag. Let's start with Jormag. For no reason whatsoever... Jormag is referred to as "they" despite having a feminine voice and describing Primordus as her brother. This is ridiculous. If somewhere along the line a character had mentioned Dragons didn't have a gender or sex or whatever, this may have been understandable. This was totally an insert for the pronoun debate in real life...why? It doesn't fit the lore or anything. It literally isn't even addressed. They just call her "they" for no reason at all! Then, you have the intelligence factor. Jormag (feminine) is hyper-intelligent, calculating, deceptive, cunning, wise, and alluring. Primordus is a neanderthal, brutish monster that they just should have had him say "SMASH! CRUSH! DEATH!" as his only dialogue... except he doesn't have any dialogue. He's there for one event and then gone.

Jormag is agender. This was established before IBS came out as Jormag went from a background force to the focus.

Unlike Kralkatorrik or other dragons, Jormag doesn't care about being labeled female or male. This isn't an insert, this is just an acknowledgment of the fact Elder Dragons are not biologically like anything else. We literally fly through the body of Kralkatorrik and there is just open space and magic after all.

The comparison between the twins is hardly new at all though? It's an incredibly common trope, the super smart, charming figure, and the brutally powerful, but dumb figure. Hell, it's the entire basis of a warhammer 3 Tzeentch warrior of chaos lord that just recently came out!

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Finally, the new expansion... let's start with the main guys first... so Gorrik. He's a brilliant Asura who works well with Taimi, had a great story arc with Blish, but is a total coward. However, now his character seems to have become an exposition machine that compliments everything Joon (female) has done with Jade tech. He's completely fooled into getting caught by an old love interest and has become very emotional with the events with Ankka. Next, Minister Yi, which is the most stereotypical, politically/ideologically male antagonist you can imagine. He might as well be wearing a Make Cantha Great Again hat. Openly discriminating against foreigners, pro-isolationist, and introduced as a "mansplainer," during the audience with the Empress. Zero depth and I'm almost to the end of Act 2. Detective Hama is the only other male character who seems to be disinterested in everything. He gives the impression he's lazy or that he hates doing anything really. Now let's look at our ladies. Joon is a brilliant, well-spoken Techie who single-handedly brought Jade-tech into Cantha, making vast advancements in a short period of time. She's also a master swindler, economist, climate activist, and overall amazing person who is independent, well-connected, and can gain special favors/access from the Empress herself. Often has to put Minister Yi in his place. Ankka is another genius Asura who has taken over as Captain of the Aetherblades. She's calculating, deadly, cold, brutal, and technically efficient. She's well-spoken and confident in her abilities and trajectory. She appears to be a great adversary so far. The Empress I've only seen once, but from her interaction with what I can only believe is her right hand man, Minister Yi, she has zero respect for anything he says. Why even have him as a minister?

Gorrik has literally always been established as an individual with severely lacking skills in regards to interacting with people. "Gets fooled" what the? I'm sorry but did you go into that instance knowing Ankka was an Aetherblade ready to kidnap him the moment she walked up? She was an old comrade, coming forth to offer help.

The Asura in general are amazed by Jade Tech because, shocker, Asura pump out propoganda all the time that every other race is too stupid to understand this stuff! They now witness humans and Tengu producing, understanding, and working on tech on par with what the Asura have, so it's a jarring culture shock.

 

Li is pretty much a typical ministry of Purity agent from winds of change, after they cleaned up the affliction.

Rama hates babysitting people. At first he's unhappy because he's stuck sitting around with these foreigners instead of doing his job.

 

Joon started jade tech. However she is not responsible for every single development or advancement. This is like saying Bill Gates is responsible for every single thing Microsoft has done. Or Steve Jobs for Apple.

Ankka, if you bothered to listen to the Aetherblade logs, has grown into hating the world, and everything. She embraced murdering her fractal self over and over to secure supplies for the Aetherblade fleet to repair and survive. Mai Trin, on the other hand, found herself becoming a Revenant with the echo of Scarlet in her head. She also was unnerved by murdering herself in the fractals.

Ankka ceased on this and did a mutiny, using Mai Trins comprimised status as a sign that she was no longer fit to lead.

Li is not the Empress's right hand man. He's the Minister of Security. The Empress is also the sister of Joon, which is where Joon's clashes with the nobility comes from. It's not that she has zero respect for him. It's that he wants to isolate Cantha, Joon wants to open the borders, and the Empress is open to the idea of reconnecting with the rest of the world.

 

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

There's a lot more, but I don't want to make it super long... I'm someone who has regularly returned to GW2 for their amazing storytelling, excellent characters, and great cutscenes. I'm not sure what happened in the past few years, but I am seeing a big drop in quality...being replaced by the injection of modern day politics/ideology. None of which I care about. I love Tyria. I want to experience Tyria... not be reminded of the toxic political environment we now live in this world. I'll probably return to this post once I finish the EoD storyline... hopefully with a more positive outlook on their direction. If you made it this far, thanks for reading. Have a great day, everyone.

I think it's a lot less "injecting modern day politics into the story" and a lot more "Modern day politics, especially in America, have gotten VERY crazy recently. And a lot of people are quick to point at anything that doesn't match their views and scream about it."

31 minutes ago, Xerac.1542 said:

Let me start off by saying I am not too much into playing the story content itself even though I really like the overall story the game presents. 

You raise some interesting points, but have you heard about the phrase art imitates life? 

I see why you would not like to be confronted with the same problems in a game we are facing irl but warring nations/tribes/villages/species have always been a big trope in any story. 

Incompetent, misplaced and delusional leaders can make for great stories. And whether they are male or female... Meh. 

I know you are comparing it to the current Hollywood formula of strong female and weak male, which might seem cheesy but not really more cheesy than strong male, weak female we had for years. Good story needs well fleshed out characters sharing the focus, not one being raised into the focus because all others are super lame.

First part, yes entirely. Cantha was left in control of an isolationist power when we departed GW1. There is no way to return to Cantha that doesn't involve these aspects, isolation, racism, etc.

 

The last part is also a key question for the OP I have. You bring up Gender a bit, but I ask, would you hold the same views with it swapped? If Joon was male, and Li was a woman, would it still be a problem?

[SlayerXX.7138]

Anet bad!

Edited September 22, 2022 by Albi.7250

[mercury ranique.2170]

Why would a form of art not represent some ideological or political idea?? On the contrary, would it still be art if it didn't to some extend. Art is ment to make you think and make you wonder.

It also doesnt mean that the artist agree with the idea or politics represented in the art. In the end it is the spectators job to like it or not.

Take the example of writers dislike male characters. That is your personal view on how you experience the story. For all we know the writers had an intention. For example. All men are bad (I'm a man btw). They want this game to express this theory and get men to think about it and how they agree with this representation of the males in the human race.

Then again, it can very well not be their intention, it matters less. What each of us thinks about is what matters. Artists create art, but we are the ones who decides wether it really is art or not. What is appealing to one is disgusting to another.
 

[yoni.7015]

I never really understood why some are so obsessed with the gender of characters in a video game. 
I didn’t had the feeling that devs hate men while playing the story, I actually didn’t really care what gender the character has. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Ashantara.8731]

You nailed the bad writing of the IBS, @Mykhel.6532 . 😄 The term "absurd" describes it perfectly and reaches its peak in the last chapter.

It had such potential, but was wasted on bad dialogue and truly irrational character development (you gave a good example with Smodur).

Then, suddenly, everything was rushed to get to the climax quickly when the IBS was cut short in favor of developing the next expansion.

Oh well, it is what it is now.
 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Shrike Arghast.3856]

I think you're reading a bit too much into this. I remember when people used to claim that the Star Wars prequels were social commentary on the Bush administration. I viewed the notion as silliness 2 decades ago, and I still do today. 

The fact of the matter is that people are tribal, and stories tend to almost always devolve into an "us vs. them" framework because we - as humans - don't really understand much else. Yes, Arenanet could probably tell a very intricate story involving the hive-minding of the dwarves. But would it ultimately tick as many emotional boxes as they want with the vast majority of players? Probably not. Because easy-to-understand is both simple to write and to sell. And I don't expect much different moving forward.

But no, I do not view GW2's writing as some kind of coy treatise on modern politics or social movements. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Shrike Arghast.3856

[Kalavier.1097]

3 minutes ago, Shrike Arghast.3856 said:

I think you're reading a bit too much into this. I remember when people used to claim that the Star Wars prequels were social commentary on the Bush administration. I viewed the notion as silliness 2 decades ago, and I still do today. 

The fact of the matter is that people are tribal, and stories tend to almost always devolve into an "us vs. them" framework because we - as humans - don't really understand much else. Yes, Arenanet could probably tell a very intricate story involving the hive-minding of the dwarves. But would it ultimately tick as many emotional boxes as they want with the vast majority of players? Probably not. Because easy-to-understand is both simple to write and to sell. And I don't expect much different moving forward.

But no, I do not view GW2's writing as some kind of coy treatise on modern politics or social movements. 

Indeed. And frankly, I think it is a good thing to, if you want to discuss things, to look at it and ponder "Why".

Like people who complain about Joon and Li, primarily their gender. I always reply "Would you feel the same if the genders were reversed, and if not, why?"

This is not saying the writing is perfect or can't be commented on, but sometimes you gotta ask "Do I dislike the character because of the writing, or because of X trait only"

19 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I never really understood why some are so obsessed with the gender or characters in a video game. 
I didn’t had the feeling that devs hate men while playing the story, I actually didn’t really care what gender the character has. 

Anet: produces a world where none of the good factions really give a crap about your gender, just what you do.

Fans: But why is X character a woman/man?

 

[Dawdler.8521]

Well as long as the next expansion doesnt involve an orange Asura trying to take over the world with his tiny hands by building a wall around Rata Sum while ranting about how the Charr are are taking their jobs it should be fine.

[Tsakhi.8124]

13 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well as long as the next expansion doesnt involve an orange Asura trying to take over the world with his tiny hands by building a wall around Rata Sum while ranting about how the Charr are are taking their jobs it should be fine.

You are my hero. That gave me a good laugh. *cheers*

[Scalacious.4139]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Like people who complain about Joon and Li, primarily their gender. I always reply "Would you feel the same if the genders were reversed, and if not, why?"

I would feel different then, simply because it would not be the classic cliché of our time. Where in real or fiction have you ever seen a confrontation between a racist, nationalist and isolationist woman and a smart, progressive and open-minded male engineer/scientist?

[Ashgar.3024]

Yes Anet is incredibly left leaning and it bleeds into their writing. It is annoying/cringy at times but story is still good overall so whatever.

 

Its 2022, have to accept everything has to be political. Politics are the new religious dogmas now that religions have mostly been sidelined from society (in the west anyway).

[Mortime.1359]

When EoD came out there were loads of threads about this very topic, same when the steam launch happened on the steam forums. The thing however is that all those threads usually get purged rather quickly. So no, you are not the only one getting this vibe, it's just that none of the threads about it survive.

[LSD.4673]

This is hilarious. Anyone who's ever so much as read a book finds Anet's writing to be at best cringeworthy, and for the most part terrible. And yet for half the people in here, it's somehow a masterpiece magically tarnished by liberal slants.

 

It's teen fantasy. If you're offended by inane fiction, maybe you need to go outside more? 

 

"muh game hates men!!!"

[Kalavier.1097]

47 minutes ago, Mortime.1359 said:

When EoD came out there were loads of threads about this very topic, same when the steam launch happened on the steam forums. The thing however is that all those threads usually get purged rather quickly. So no, you are not the only one getting this vibe, it's just that none of the threads about it survive.

The ones I've seen do because it ends up being pretty awful or instead of actually discussing it, tend to go into circles. One can discuss it without attacking, after all.

Some people have good points, that then get derailed by some crazy dude into complete nonsense and insanity that gets locked up and purged.

14 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

This is hilarious. Anyone who's ever so much as read a book finds Anet's writing to be at best cringeworthy, and for the most part terrible. And yet for half the people in here, it's somehow a masterpiece magically tarnished by liberal slants.

 

It's teen fantasy. If you're offended by inane fiction, maybe you need to go outside more? 

 

"muh game hates men!!!"

First part I'd say is entirely subjective, but the latter half is true. People get way too upset over small things.

Like Yao. If Yao truly offends somebody, that's kinda weird given how little a role they play in the overall story of EoD.

[Scalacious.4139]

16 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Like Yao. If Yao truly offends somebody, that's kinda weird given how little a role they play in the overall story of EoD.

I don't think anyone finds offence in the fact that Yao exists because, as you say, they really only play a very small role, but what is irritating is that everyone automatically talks about them without the characters knowing each other. Mai knew them before, sure, but the commander, for example, says it outright, too.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Scalacious.4139

[Kalavier.1097]

2 minutes ago, Scalacious.4139 said:

I don't think anyone finds offence in the fact that Yao exists because, as you say, they really only play a very small role, but what is irritating is that everyone automatically talks about them without the characters knowing each other. Mai knew them before, sure, but the commander, for example, says it outright, too.

Mai actually uses the pronoun "they" to describe Yao first, to the commander. Then Elora. Glancing at the wiki for instances with Yao, I actually can't find an instance of the PC describing Yao as "They", merely responding to Mai or Elora, who use that. And both directly knew Yao beforehand.

[AliamRationem.5172]

51 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

This is hilarious. Anyone who's ever so much as read a book finds Anet's writing to be at best cringeworthy, and for the most part terrible. And yet for half the people in here, it's somehow a masterpiece magically tarnished by liberal slants.

 

It's teen fantasy. If you're offended by inane fiction, maybe you need to go outside more? 

 

"muh game hates men!!!"

So your position is "The writing sucks, so any criticisms you may have are invalid?"  That's useful...

[crewthief.8649]

I mean, you’re not wrong. To be fair though, Anet isn’t alone; no one seems capable of writing anything that doesn’t have their personal politics baked into it. We live in an age of fanatical zealots on both ends of the spectrum who cannot exist without thrusting their political opinions into any and all interactions.

You either accept this, or literally cease consuming any media whatsoever. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by crewthief.8649

[Scalacious.4139]

20 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Mai actually uses the pronoun "they" to describe Yao first, to the commander. Then Elora. Glancing at the wiki for instances with Yao, I actually can't find an instance of the PC describing Yao as "They", merely responding to Mai or Elora, who use that. And both directly knew Yao beforehand.

You're right, I was wrong. I just re-read the conversations in the episodes where Yao appears. The commander usually gets around the problem by saying "Engineer Yao" everywhere. I think I got it mixed up with the dialogue about Jormag.

[Eponet.4829]

7 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Now we get to Episode 3 with the focus back on the Charr. Smodur the Unflinching is described as a brilliant engineer and architect, who has encountered many battles over his many years... but all we get to see is a completely irrational and ridiculous character who takes unbelievable actions for very little reason other than "because I know best," or "because I want it." Everything from maliciously killing other Charr by taking advantage of the Commander, to needlessly killing a hostage when they had Ryland on the ropes, ready to compromise. He's further shown to be incompetent by his constant 'Hit them head on' talking. The Iron legion is about force and tactics. All it seems is he's a dumb brute who only uses direct force to win. Then, after all his stupidity, he gets assassinated in complete incompetence with no more than a side scene. And then who replaces him? Mia Kindleshot (female).

 

Just want to point out that if Smodur's portrayed as an irrational dumb brute, then the same would apply to Mia if she actually got screentime. If you ask about how she's doing, it's mentioned that her tactics are pretty much the same as his were.

[LSD.4673]

29 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

So your position is "The writing sucks, so any criticisms you may have are invalid?"  That's useful...

No, "my position" is that this is a game, with writing aimed at teens. Man-children aren't the intended audience. So what a man-child takes as being "ideological" and "man hating" is in fact simply what the teens of today are into. The same way 10 years ago they were into Call of Duty and Battlefield, which is why the Charr and the Pact all talk like modern American soldiers instead of fantasy characters.

"you take point and provide suppressing fire!" said the fantasy cow-cat creature with a sword. But i found that offensive because the fantasy cow-cat creature seemed to have left-wing beliefs.

[Freya.9075]

8 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Jormag is referred to as "they" despite having a feminine voice

I don’t know about you, but I think jormags voice (which is amazing btw) can be interpreted as both female and male. It’s a really unique voice which makes it difficult to know the gender. Besides if jormag was female, why does svanir follow them? They hate females. That doesn’t make sense. It’s a mystery and having mysteries in a game makes it interesting. And makes for interesting discussions. it doesn’t have to be political. 
 

i think the political stuff is ppl overthinking things. I don’t know if it’s an American thing, but it does seem to be that way sometimes. There is no reason to make a game so complicated.