Story direction is a little...political/ideological (spoilers) - returning player

[Mykhel.6532]

5 hours ago, Shrike Arghast.3856 said:

I think you're reading a bit too much into this. I remember when people used to claim that the Star Wars prequels were social commentary on the Bush administration. I viewed the notion as silliness 2 decades ago, and I still do today. 

But that's not true. At least with the prequels, this was new Star wars lore. In terms of GW2, this is a direct counter to the direction the writing was going just 5 years ago. You went from believing this world was uniquely Tyria to a kitten near 50/50 mix of Tyria and our world. It's completely immersion-breaking for me.

[Bakeneko.5826]

6 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I agree with you 100%. If they said "it" I wouldn't have batted an eye. But you still haven't said where in the lore this is... where does it say this? When did this come out? When is the player made aware of this?

As I said - obvious troll post is obvious

[ugrakarma.9416]

people taking things too serious...

IBS just make a parody/satire with real world political stuff.

the Forged Steel chapter is like a tribute to 80s, 90s vietnam war movies clichés.

i agree on EoD its become too far...but IBS is fine, its doesn't mean to be take serious.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Mykhel.6532]

1 hour ago, Eponet.4829 said:

 

Just want to point out that if Smodur's portrayed as an irrational dumb brute, then the same would apply to Mia if she actually got screentime. If you ask about how she's doing, it's mentioned that her tactics are pretty much the same as his were.

But we don't get to see that at all, making it irrelevant. All I see is the big, dumb, brutish man was replaced by a woman.

[Kalavier.1097]

9 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Because there is absolutely no lead up to this. It started there at the points you're saying. It was also defined throughout that the Commander was Aurene's Champion. This is in direct relation to the Champion of the other Elder Dragons. In what way has a Champion ever controlled their Elder Dragon? I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Bangar was an absolutely terrible character.

And nobody has any information on a champion who is not an elder dragon's minion. The commander is not branded, risen, etc.

This is where Bangar went wrong. He failed to consider how Jormag was different.

Again, literally in universe, faulty information, or Jormag *GASP. SHOCKING. OMG* whispering to Bangar and influencing his actions from Grothmar on. You know, like how we see a lot of claw marks and footprints in the snow outside of his office, matching more to a boneskinner then anything else.

5 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

That is unfortunate socialism kills people, mostly socialists, but still.  Every large socialist government irl has been easily taken over by a dictator, who then proceeds to inflict misery upon the people.  I talked with a survivor twenty years ago, one of the ones who got herself smuggled out.

Acceptable meaning we literally are seeing groups outside of the original Dredge government, which was overthrown and dismantled in the dungeons.

They aren't going "Haha, all communist factions great." but "hey, here's a dredge oil mining town that is not only friendly, but not as intense."

Hell, the instance in question is a Charr slaver, ex flame legion drilling Ivan about the details of the dredge government.

4 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

But that's not true. At least with the prequels, this was new Star wars lore. In terms of GW2, this is a direct counter to the direction the writing was going just 5 years ago. You went from believing this world was uniquely Tyria to a kitten near 50/50 mix of Tyria and our world. It's completely immersion-breaking for me.

Maybe it's time to step away from the political RL news then?

Just now, Mykhel.6532 said:

But we don't get to see that at all, making it irrelevant. All I see is the big, dumb, brutish man was replaced by a woman.

And why does that matter? Why does the fact the replacement (who literally hasn't done anything and hasn't been described in the role barring being similar to Smodur, but lacking the desire for Khan-Ur status) being a woman be the awful thing?

 

3 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

As I said - obvious troll post is obvious

I dislike assuming things but.. if not troll, then somebody who hasn't really delved in the lore much and is making some glaringly obvious mistakes :(.

[Mykhel.6532]

1 hour ago, LSD.4673 said:

No, "my position" is that this is a game, with writing aimed at teens. Man-children aren't the intended audience. So what a man-child takes as being "ideological" and "man hating" is in fact simply what the teens of today are into. The same way 10 years ago they were into Call of Duty and Battlefield, which is why the Charr and the Pact all talk like modern American soldiers instead of fantasy characters.

"you take point and provide suppressing fire!" said the fantasy cow-cat creature with a sword. But i found that offensive because the fantasy cow-cat creature seemed to have left-wing beliefs.

The writing isn't intended solely for teens. The first 2 expansions and the base game were quality written and well-developed. This game is intended for adults as much, if not more (as they spend more cash as well). And no... the Charr aren't based on American military... they're based on the tactics of war.. which have been around for thousands of years... you think America is the only country to ever have an army and use movement and maneuver tactics? You might want to reform your take on this. It's pretty bad.

[Mykhel.6532]

10 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

As I said - obvious troll post is obvious

No. You're not answering my question. Show me where. You're the only troll here.

[Xerac.1542]

22 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I'm fine with your latter point, but Art imitating life doesn't have to also imitate politics/ideology. You can draw the famous bowl of fruit picture, replace the fruit with Elder Dragons and it would still be imitating life without knowing anything about what the artist's politics/ideology were. It makes it very clear, at least to me, that the writers cannot do their job without injecting their own politics into a game.

There is no way to  create something objectively without putting your personal touch on it I guess. 

But how do you know all people who created to story and everything around it share the view that you perceive through the "thing" they made. There  is also no way to really objectively look at something. Everyone is is going to perceive stuff differently. 

 

Again, not that much into the storytelling ingame since, to me, dialogs are... boring most of the time, story instances feel like a drag, combat is not really engaging. 

I haven't even realized until waaaaaay late into ibs that jormag is addressed as a genderless being... Maybe I should pay attention. 

I really do like they gave us both, a female and male character as leading stars to be annoying... Taimi and Braham obviously. 

 

Tldr: I really don't care enough about why they put a them as a pronoun or a female character to be a lead or why Braham is male. I wanna put some moas on fire. If somebody wants to teach me a lesson about politics or a big anti male agenda and why I am a bad person in general they shouldn't add so many other things to do. 

 

[Zebulous.2934]

31 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

How dare the Dredge, who have long, long, since freaking GW1 launch, who have held Communist/socialist themes, reference... those themes.

 

 

errrr I asked: How could a citizen of the Moletariat not make communist conversation?  As in communist conversation is the only conversation they are able make.    
the guy I was replying to was criticizing the communist reference. 
You ok man? I don't mind you getting me for a faulty recollection from ten years ago, the Jormag business, but that dredge comment seemed poorly aimed.  

Edit:  I was trying to remind Ashgar that the Dredge are socialist and patriotic so they must advocate for communism.  While I am against socialist governments, Ashgar's criticism feels misplaced because that is what the Dredge character would talk about.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Zebulous.2934
elaboration, clarification

[Vanthian.9267]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You're not the only one who's noticed.  However, every time I say something it gets the devs angry at me.  Repressive tolerance is in full force on these forums, so you can only discuss these elements if you're praising them.  

Very true.  Anyone who aggress with the current top propaganda message can post anything they want with no blow back.  Meanwhile, if you post anything against it you get silenced by either bans or forced rewrite of a mod.

[Kalavier.1097]

19 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

errrr I asked: How could a citizen of the Moletariat not make communist conversation?  As in communist conversation is the only conversation they are able make.    
the guy I was replying to was criticizing the communist reference. 
You ok man? I don't mind you getting me for a faulty recollection from ten years ago, the Jormag business, but that dredge comment seemed poorly aimed.  

Edit:  I was trying to remind Ashgar that the Dredge are socialist and patriotic so they must advocate for communism.  While I am against socialist governments, Ashgar's criticism feels misplaced because that is what the Dredge character would talk about.

My reply was more in support of your statement, in reply to his.

Declaring that the log of Ivan and his crewmate (I don't recall any such conversations between him and Gorrik about that, just the log of him talking to the Charr ex-flame legion slaver) as some sort of RL propaganda for Communist governments is just incredibly silly.

At that point the person should step back and seriously think about their viewpoints/choices because wow.

[Zebulous.2934]

ah, it was sarcasm.  Sorry, I didn't realize

[Doggie.3184]

Yeah to be fully honest I couldn't help but feel some misandry from the more recent writing. Not sure if that was their intention or not, especially with the recent drama on Twitter with their ex employee. It started with Balthazar when I began feeling that way, like they were trying to go hard with "toxic masculinity" and kill off one of the few remaining male gods because the whole plot was just weird. Then pretty much nearly all important NPC are female in EoD including event/meta/misc ones. Like Equality is very important but flipping misogyny to misandry isn't the way forward. ;o

(They also go pretty hard with three Lesbian heroes as lead characters while at most for gay males is a bi male who's a massive villain that needs to be destroyed which is pretty close to triggering the "Bury Your Gays" troupe.)

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

Personally I always liked the political message of the chapter Bound by Blood: it doesn't matter what cultural differences or historical conflicts exist between us, all that matters is that we're the same genetic race!

Edited September 22, 2022 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[Farohna.6247]

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

But that's not true. At least with the prequels, this was new Star wars lore. In terms of GW2, this is a direct counter to the direction the writing was going just 5 years ago. You went from believing this world was uniquely Tyria to a kitten near 50/50 mix of Tyria and our world. It's completely immersion-breaking for me.

Actually the prequels were theorized by some to be commentaries on the end of the Clinton administration and the early Bush years, as they were released at the same time as some events unfolded.  Often parallels are drawn with movies or other entertainment due to that's what people have on their minds at the time. 

I would argue that different times have different social awareness factors that become part of the culture.  So in the past in was a big deal to have a not White person as a prominent, non stereotype in a film or tv show.  It's been a big deal to have a female protagonist in games or movies.  Different religions or cultures that might have been frowned upon are now common place in entertainment in a positive way.  I'm sure someone found that immersion breaking back then too. 

So it's a mirror for our times, and there's nothing wrong with that.  It all finds balance. The game has had ample good male heroes and evil female villains.  It goes back and forth.  

 

[Mykhel.6532]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Did you not pay attention at all to... any of the lore in the shiverpeaks? Even ingame it's very explicitly established that the Svanir cult do not like women, at all. In Edge of Destiny it's literally brought up that when norn parties went out to fight the icebrood champion, men returned. Women never did.

I did. But it's also been about a decade since. I also remember them calling Jormag a he. You chalk it up to "Big Ice Dragon," comment, but that's awfully convenient for you. Because to most people I talk to on this, they changed it.

 

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Bangar came to the wrong conclusion, why is that so weird? Especially when we later have the Aetherblades call on the commander to "Call off your dragon" and Aurene gleefully commenting on how they think she's a pet to the commander.

Pretty sure Bangar has been named before in the lore, and being told he's the wildcard of the trio is describing his character.

If you don't understand my point with this, then I don't know what to say. You're talking about recent events. We never see Bangar in anything else in-game until IBS. We are told this to fit their narrative of the story. It's bad writing.

 

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

A: Again this assumes everybody is thinking 100% rationally at all times. Smodur was not only losing his legion members to the enemy, but he was entirely losing control of the situation and had it all in the hands of the enemy. He was trying to push himself to be Khan-Ur, and didn't want to show any weakness. Ryland also had insulted him/set himself up as superior. Smodur wanted that attitude cut down.

B: You are basing Bangar's entire career off two fights?

A: He never once expresses his sadness or empathy to his lost Soldiers. Not once.

B: Yes. Because that's all the player gets to see. You tell me this person is the leader of the Blood legion, the greatest of the Charr in traditional combat... and then the only times I see him he loses... it's not good writing.

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

This is laughable because it literally ignores every single bit of established lore from GW2 launch era.

The sons of Svanir hold women in contempt because Jora  murdered (in their eyes) Svanir and rejected Jormag's gift.

Icebrood and Jormag existed long before Jora. The Sons of Svanir are the Norn sect of Icebrood. We have never seen how the other races react on a community level while corrupted. This is a ridiculous statement. In addition, many male leaders have also killed Svanir so the premise itself makes no sense.

 

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Jormag isn't offering them love or affection. All Jormag offers is power in exchange for embracing the ice. This reads as a serious misunderstanding of established lore.

I never said Jormag offered those things. I compared it offering the seduction of power in the same way a woman would seduce a man.

 

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Besides the parts where Jormag was trying to convince Aurene to join them, and Aurene was being respectful back, if keeping her own distance.

And? Aurene can do what she wants. For the rest of the characters to fall in line is absurd.

 

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The conclusion is based off a severe lack of understanding of the Svanir cult.

You keep saying things like this but you've made no reference to in-game lore.

[Mykhel.6532]

3 hours ago, Xerac.1542 said:

I haven't even realized until waaaaaay late into ibs that jormag is addressed as a genderless being... Maybe I should pay attention.

You didn't miss it because it's never mentioned. In fact, Sons of Svanir mention Jormag as a he in certain text dialogue.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

12 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

You didn't miss it because it's never mentioned. In fact, Sons of Svanir mention Jormag as a he in certain text dialogue.

This is incorrect. It was explicitly mentioned all the way back during like pre-release that the Elder Dragons have no gender.

[Mykhel.6532]

Just now, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This is incorrect. It was explicitly mentioned all the way back during like pre-release that the Elder Dragons have no gender.

Where? Can you point me to a source? And why does Jormag refer to Primordus as a "Brother?"

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

10 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Where? Can you point me to a source? And why does Jormag refer to Primordus as a "Brother?"

It was a dev post on the old Guild Wars Guru website forums which no longer exist, but it is marked on the wiki page for the Elder Dragons.

And Jormag's speech is an interesting design problem of many languages. Languages tend to be very gendered, we explicitly call out gender when referring to someone, or something, if it has it. When we don't know the gender of something the correct terminology is to reference the thing as "it", or use "they" in a singular. However "it" and "they" are considered.... inappropriate terms to use when describing intelligent people since "it" is usually used for a non-sentient object, while "they" is typically used for groups of people, and referring to a singular being as such is considered dehumanizing.

As a result, when the gender of something is unknown, its common to default to using "man", or "he", and to continue to use male terminology for them until proven otherwise. Elder Dragons may not have gender, but language isn't really designed for that, so people slap gendered terms on them for the sake of convenience.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Mykhel.6532]

1 minute ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

It was a dev post on the old Guild Wars Guru website forums which no longer exist, but it is marked on the wiki page for the Elder Dragons.

That's quite convenient it no longer exists. A wiki is not proof of anything as nearly everyone can edit those pages.

 

3 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

However "it" and "they" are considered.... inappropriate terms to use when describing intelligent people since "it" is usually used for a non-sentient object, while "they" is typically used for groups of people, and referring to a singular being as such is considered dehumanizing.

This is untrue as we can refer to our beloved animals as it until we know if they're male or female. The problem with this is it was not established lore, it's not in any of the story dialogue and no one can prove otherwise. So, unfortunately to me, it seems they inserted this piece based on a political/ideological nature.

 

5 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

As a result, when the gender of something is unknown, its common to default to using "man", or "he", and to continue to use male terminology for them until proven otherwise.

We don't have this problem in English. Male and female words are very often defined.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

That's quite convenient it no longer exists. A wiki is not proof of anything as nearly everyone can edit those pages.

Ahh yes the "I'm going to ignore anything that doesn't fit my narrative" argument.... great.

5 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This is untrue as we can refer to our beloved animals as it until we know if they're male or female. The problem with this is it was not established lore, it's not in any of the story dialogue and no one can prove otherwise. So, unfortunately to me, it seems they inserted this piece based on a political/ideological nature.

Pets are not sapient creatures, and referring to a human like you refer to your cats/dogs is considered incredibly rude, and inappropriate.

5 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

We don't have this problem in English. Male and female words are very often defined.

We do entirely have this problem in English.

Say you wanted to talk about your brother or sister, without using gendered terms like brother or sister. The only real term left to use is a generic "my relative" but talking about your brother/sister as "my relative" is awkward, and if you actually did that people would look at you weird.

Could you imagine every time Jormag talked about Primordus it said "my relative" rather then brother? Jormag appearing in Dragonstorm and yelling "MY RELATIVE!" at the top of its lungs instead of yelling "BROTHER!"

Likewise consider Kralk calling out to "mother" right before he died. Well, Mother is a gendered term, so its technically wrong when referring to Soo-Won. Imagine him saying "creator!" right before he died.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Mykhel.6532]

1 minute ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Ahh yes the "I'm going to ignore anything that doesn't fit my narrative" argument.... great.

Is this a joke? There's nothing to ignore? A site and doesn't exist and a Wiki who can be updated by anyone...

 

1 minute ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Pets are not sapient creatures, and referring to a human like you refer to your cats/dogs is considered incredibly rude, and inappropriate.

Why the hell would I have respect for a giant dragon who kills people needlessly? I don't give a crap if I offend them in every word. Not to mention, Jormag's primary influence is deception... or did you forget that?

 

2 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Say you wanted to talk about your brother or sister, without using gendered terms like brother or sister. The only real term left to use is a generic "my relative" but talking about your brother/sister as "my relative" is awkward, and if you actually did that people would look at you weird.

Could you imagine every time Jormag talked about Primordus it said "my relative" rather then brother? Jormag appearing in Dragonstorm and yelling "MY RELATIVE!" at the top of its lungs instead of yelling "BROTHER!"

What...? No. Jormag could have said a bunch of different things. You're really thinking inside the box. Here's the easiest thing Jormag could have yelled: "Primordus!" His name. Didn't even need to mention relation. Finally, Jormag could have easily just referred to him as "family." 

[Farohna.6247]

44 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

 

Icebrood and Jormag existed long before Jora. The Sons of Svanir are the Norn sect of Icebrood. We have never seen how the other races react on a community level while corrupted. This is a ridiculous statement. In addition, many male leaders have also killed Svanir so the premise itself makes no sense.

Straight from the wiki....The Sons view many norn men—as well as men and women of other races—too weak in mind, heart and body to be worthy to join Jormag's cause.[6] Norn women are not allowed to join the cult because of Jora's "crimes" against Dragon and Svanir.[7] The cultists do not view their actions as evil; to them, there only exist predators and prey in nature, and they have taken the role of predators who promote strength and will over weakness and numbers.[8][9] They revere raw power and the cycle of growth and destruction in the world.[5]

[Mykhel.6532]

1 minute ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Straight from the wiki....The Sons view many norn men—as well as men and women of other races—too weak in mind, heart and body to be worthy to join Jormag's cause.[6] Norn women are not allowed to join the cult because of Jora's "crimes" against Dragon and Svanir.[7] The cultists do not view their actions as evil; to them, there only exist predators and prey in nature, and they have taken the role of predators who promote strength and will over weakness and numbers.[8][9] They revere raw power and the cycle of growth and destruction in the world.[5]

Yes. That's literally just the Sons of Svanir. My point addresses the origin, which means "what would other races do under Jormag's influence?"