Story direction is a little...political/ideological (spoilers) - returning player

[voltaicbore.8012]

7 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This is something I agree with you on. However, it wasn't a seamless transition. Going back through Scarlet's war recently in LW S1, there is ZERO chemistry between the two. They are exclusively professional. In fact, Marjory comes onto Braham the first time they meet at the base of operations basically saying something to the effect of, "Well aren't you a tall glass of water..." then suddenly in LW S2 before HoT, they're together. For perspective, season 2 began on July 1, 2014 and the eighth (last) episode was released on January 13, 2015. At the same time this story was being developed, the country was mired in the judicial victories of gay marriage. Coincidence? I don't believe so. It's also important to note that there is no other declared relationship in the entire storyline; by "declared," I mean a relationship we openly watch blossom as part of the main story or even side stories. 

I think you bring up an important point, with how contemporaneous Kas/Jory's relationship is with IRL politics of the time. I'll have to go back and look (or depend on @Konig Des Todes.2086to take a proper lineup of the timelines lol) but in broad strokes your timeline seems reasonable.

However I believe it just further solidifies my point that ANet (mostly) managed to avoid explicit, patronizing "teaching moments" regarding those two. As you say, one day they became a couple, and that was that. No preaching, no big speech, no finger wagging (at least none that I could recall). And I'm totally on board with it being that way. I have no problem with people doing what they want (NPCs and IRL folk alike) so long as I'm not being forced to participate in it beyond civilly accepting whatever "it" is.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This is something I agree with you on. However, it wasn't a seamless transition. Going back through Scarlet's war recently in LW S1, there is ZERO chemistry between the two. They are exclusively professional. In fact, Marjory comes onto Braham the first time they meet at the base of operations basically saying something to the effect of, "Well aren't you a tall glass of water..." then suddenly in LW S2 before HoT, they're together. For perspective, season 2 began on July 1, 2014 and the eighth (last) episode was released on January 13, 2015. At the same time this story was being developed, the country was mired in the judicial victories of gay marriage. Coincidence? I don't believe so. It's also important to note that there is no other declared relationship in the entire storyline; by "declared," I mean a relationship we openly watch blossom as part of the main story or even side stories. 

This isn't entirely true, but I put the fault on the LWS1 return.

 

In the original Season 1, Marjory is flirting with everyone (well, the Commander, Kasmeer, Logan, and Braham), including Kasmeer - who flirts back. You might've missed this bit of returned dialogue between Kasmeer and Marjory, which actually happens before Marjory and Braham, because it only shows up if you idle in the camp for a decent time during Making the Antitoxin story step:

Marjory Delaqua: I've been thinking about Scarlet.

Kasmeer Meade: She can't have you.

Marjory Delaqua: She's behind all these crazy alliances. I'd rest my reputation on...wait. What did you say?

Kasmeer Meade: (laugh) I think you're right. She has all the landmarks of a blooming psycho hag.

This was technically the first time Kasmeer flirted with Marjory.

And not returning, after Marjory did her flirt with Braham, she and Kasmeer had this very infamous line:

Marjory Delaqua: How'd you get out of all that without a single smudge or tear on your dress?

Kasmeer Meade: It's not a dress. It's an illusion. You think I'd take my best dress into a place like that?

Marjory Delaqua: An illusion? You mean you're...

Kasmeer Meade: Naked. Is that a problem?

Marjory Delaqua: Noooo. Not a problem.

And the tone of Marjory is very, very telling. Later in Season 1, which hopefully will be the opening of Episode 5, we had the instance A Moment of Peace where you get this dialogue between the two:

Marjory Delaqua: Hey. What's wrong? You've been unusually quiet today.

Kasmeer Meade: (sigh) It's my father's birthday. He'd have been forty-five today.

Marjory Delaqua: I'm sorry. Do you want to talk about it?

Kasmeer Meade: I just miss him. He didn't deserve to die like that...like a rat in a cage.

Marjory Delaqua: Why was he in jail?

Kasmeer Meade: He was in debtor's prison. It's not what you think. He was a good father.

Marjory Delaqua: How did he get into debt?

Kasmeer Meade: My brother, Kyle, liked to gamble. He lost a lot. My father loved him, and he used family money to bail him out.

Kasmeer Meade: They were going to kill Kyle.

Marjory Delaqua: So then your father couldn't pay his own bills.

Kasmeer Meade: That's right. So they took everything we had left, and they put him in prison.

Marjory Delaqua: That's why you were looking for a job.

Kasmeer Meade: And you hired me. I'll never forget how you saved me that day, Jory.

Marjory Delaqua: I had no idea your situation was so...dark.

Marjory Delaqua: He died in prison?

Kasmeer Meade: Uh-huh. A nobleman in debtor's prison... Well, you can imagine what they...thought of him there.

Kasmeer Meade: I visited him as often as I could, but he hated me seeing him like that.

Kasmeer Meade: And then he was just gone.

Marjory Delaqua: It must have been terrifying for you when they arrested your father.

Kasmeer Meade: I'd been with my tutor, working on staff spells, and when I got home, they were there.

Kasmeer Meade: They had him in chains, and they wouldn't let me speak to him.

Kasmeer Meade: They wouldn't let me...do anything. They seized the house and were taking all our things.

Marjory Delaqua: I'm so sorry.

Kasmeer Meade: The guard in charge took pity on me, I think. He told me I could take one item from the house.

Kasmeer Meade: But I had to decide right then. One thing...from all my belongings, my family's heritage.

Kasmeer Meade: He said, "You better choose carefully. It's all you're ever getting back."

Kasmeer Meade: I could have taken one of my mother's necklaces or a valuable piece of art, but he was adamant. Only one thing.

Marjory Delaqua: What did you take?

Kasmeer Meade: I took the stuffed bear my father had given me... (sob)

Marjory Delaqua: Oh, Kas. Shhhh. It's okay.

Marjory Delaqua: Listen, honey. Why don't you stay with me tonight? You shouldn't be alone.

Kasmeer Meade: I'm afraid I'll never want to leave.

Marjory Delaqua: I won't let you.

This moment ends with Marjory and Kasmeer holding hands (or rather, positioned next to each other so that their hands nearly overlap as if they are holding hands - a very easy to miss thing that must have been painstaking to implement properly).

And then the very next release we had an instance in The Dead End (which is, sadly, our more likely starting point for the next LW episode), in which Rox pretty blatantly asks if they're a couple:

Rox: So how did you two meet?

Marjory Delaqua: About six months ago, I was just minding my own business and...

Kasmeer Meade: She'd posted a "Help Wanted" sign. And I was looking for someone to help.

Rox: So you met only six months ago? It seems like you've been together longer.

Marjory Delaqua: I'd noticed her before that—around the city.

Kasmeer Meade: You had? You never told me that.

Rox: So...you're a mated pair?

Kasmeer Meade: (laugh)

Marjory Delaqua: (chuckle) We're currently in negotiations.

And of course, at the end of Season 1, which will have to return in Episode 5 or the community will riot, we had the (in)famous kiss.

So there definitely was build-up. But it began in the final three arcs of Season 1, starting in Tower of Nightmares where we see Kasmeer show her interest in Marjory, and Marjory show her interest in anything humanoid (+ the Commander). It is not a case of "they're suddenly together". We saw the build up and the community was speculating quite well if the two would get together.

 

And for the record, there is some coincidence. Because of two facts:

First, Marjory was originally meant to be a male character. Like Ellen Kiel, the gender was changed mid-writing due to VA acquisition issues.

Second, Marjory was originally meant to die in the Season 1 finale. This is probably a huge reason why Marjory's motivation and involvement feels dead in the water after Season 2, because they didn't have any original plans for her beyond Scarlet's End instance. The only reason Marjory was kept alive was because the community loved her character so much in Season 1 - a bit ironic because after Season 1, people's opinions on the character fell lower and lower, much like Braham in fact.

So while there is definitely some parallels in American politics at the time, some of that is indeed a bit coincidental as those plots were rewritten so late in the stage that there was VA done for the original stuff. Though I can see the point, but it also highlights how it wasn't preachy like EoD feels. There was no "Hi, I'm non-binary!" or "Beat up the Bigot" moment with them. It was a smooth and expected development that felt natural. Flirting one way, flirting the other way, a close moment seen from the sidelines, one gets in danger and the other goes crazy, the danger passes and they kiss to make it clear what their feelings are and they become an official couple.

That relationship, one of two relationships we see begin (the other being Taimi x Gorrik), was done very, very well imo.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Mykhel.6532]

3 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Marjory Delaqua: What did you take?

Kasmeer Meade: I took the stuffed bear my father had given me... (sob)

Marjory Delaqua: Oh, Kas. Shhhh. It's okay.

Marjory Delaqua: Listen, honey. Why don't you stay with me tonight? You shouldn't be alone.

Kasmeer Meade: I'm afraid I'll never want to leave.

Marjory Delaqua: I won't let you.

So my deal with this one is "honey" is a southern term of endearment used universally. It can be used for children, strangers, friends, and can even have a condescending tone. Even the end of "I won't let you." just seems to me like Kasmeer being afraid to leave a "comfortable place." While Marjory just appeared to ensure she was good before going back out into the world. Now that I'm seeing it again, I can see how it could be considered intimate. I think my mind was set to innocence because there was never any romantic or relationship piece between any other 2 characters.

 

5 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Marjory Delaqua: I've been thinking about Scarlet.

Kasmeer Meade: She can't have you.

Marjory Delaqua: She's behind all these crazy alliances. I'd rest my reputation on...wait. What did you say?

Kasmeer Meade: (laugh) I think you're right. She has all the landmarks of a blooming psycho hag.

Right. I remember this one too. I thought it was a little forward, but Scarlet was also known to get into people's heads with influence, so when I originally saw it, I wasn't sure what to think because she was very flirtatious as a default.

 

7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Marjory Delaqua: I'd noticed her before that—around the city.

Kasmeer Meade: You had? You never told me that.

Rox: So...you're a mated pair?

Kasmeer Meade: (laugh)

Marjory Delaqua: (chuckle) We're currently in negotiations.

THIS! This was when I knew they were becoming a couple. And yes, this was the beginning of the road towards HoT.

 

16 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And of course, at the end of Season 1, which will have to return in Episode 5 or the community will riot, we had the (in)famous kiss.

I actually don't think I ever saw this.

 

20 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So while there is definitely some parallels in American politics at the time, some of that is indeed a bit coincidental as those plots were rewritten so late in the stage that there was VA done for the original stuff.

Honestly, none of this bothered me. However, I do remember following the gay marriage stuff and then seeing this happen as more of an ode to current events piece, which I was fine with because they were almost always together. I also wasn't concerned with the story because it was clear to me in LW S2 that the story was still hearty and good; complete with tragedy, surprise, suspense, and conflict. I just wish I could say the same for IBS and EoD.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

So my deal with this one is "honey" is a southern term of endearment used universally. It can be used for children, strangers, friends, and can even have a condescending tone. Even the end of "I won't let you." just seems to me like Kasmeer being afraid to leave a "comfortable place." While Marjory just appeared to ensure she was good before going back out into the world. Now that I'm seeing it again, I can see how it could be considered intimate. I think my mind was set to innocence because there was never any romantic or relationship piece between any other 2 characters.

It might also be different hearing the dialogue than just reading it, especially with how it ends with them holding hands. The voice acting definitely adds a level of intimacy to it than just word choice.

 

13 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I actually don't think I ever saw this.

Enjoy

The animation in it was one of the best done animated cutscenes at the time and... honestly would be again until Season 4 / Icebrood Saga, imo. The only one that comes close would be Eir's death.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Mykhel.6532]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It might be different hearing the dialogue than just reading it, especially with how it ends with them holding hands.

Yeah, much different. I see it now.

 

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Enjoy

I'm not going to watch it yet. I missed the end of LW S1 It's the only story I didn't see live. 🙂

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Just now, Mykhel.6532 said:

I'm not going to watch it yet. I missed the end of LW S1 It's the only story I didn't see live. 🙂

That's fair, and as I just edited the previous post: This short cutscene was one of the best done animated cutscenes at the time and for quite some time after (the only ones that come to mind before IBS would Eir's death, Demmi's death, and Joko's death scenes). Unlike most in-engine cutscenes, it had unique animation done for it like all of EoD's cutscenes.

[Weindrasi.3805]

I think your personal biases are coloring your view of things. A LOT.

[Teratus.2859]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:54 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

To the OP, the two biggest "politics" arcs that we had, Charr and Cantha, were ones that would've had to happen at some point anyway.

A: The Charr have always been plagued with people screaming about how they NEED war, and how as soon as the dragons end, the Charr would tear up the treaties and go back to war with humanity and anybody else. Anet answered those cries and questions with IBS, by having Grothmar be split between those who are fine with the other races/peace, and those who want to go back to fighting or hate other races. This is no different from base game (Charr in Ascalon viewpoint vs Charr in the orders or Lion's Arch viewpoint), but brought forth those feelings to the front and had it erupt, with those wanting to conquer going over there, to those wanting to build and honor treaties over on the other side.

B: Cantha was left in the grasp of a xenophobic, isolationist, evil regime. Going back would have to deal with either this faction, or the aftermath of it's fall. Anet went for the latter. So we are dealing with elements of that power structure who don't want to give up that lifestyle, and want a return to that way of Cantha being governed.

This was a good take imo.

While I get the whole.. Uhhgg Politics thing that people are really sick of forcing it's way into everything these days (myself included), I don't agree that it strongly impacts Guildwars 2 like some tend to think it does.

Anet could have easily gone down the road with Cantha and painted all the purist canthans as evil but they didn't.
Sure we had some scraps with them and the story mandated we be on opposing sides to them but at the end of the day we did end up allying with them to beat the void despite our differences and views.

I would say Gw2 does more than most games these days to paint opposing factions as people with simply different views rather than just flat out evil and everything they represent is bad..
And if I recall correctly that attitude has even angered some individuals in the past who have complained that humanizing people and views that they personally don't like is a mistake that leads to harmful real world consequences.

[Valisha.8650]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:17 PM, Ashgar.3024 said:

Yes Anet is incredibly left leaning and it bleeds into their writing. It is annoying/cringy at times but story is still good overall so whatever.

 

Its 2022, have to accept everything has to be political. Politics are the new religious dogmas now that religions have mostly been sidelined from society (in the west anyway).

If anet is so progressive, then why do we still have different greatsword animations for humans and norns based on gender?

What about the /sit emote?

Had anet truly care about some "inclusiveness", we would have gotten an animation choice option long time ago. (probably a gemstore paid one, lmao).

[Ashgar.3024]

24 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

If anet is so progressive, then why do we still have different greatsword animations for humans and norns based on gender?

Relic from the older days (Iike... 5 years ago) when it was safe to assume men and women biology differs and too costly to "fix", i imagine.

 

27 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

What about the /sit emote?

 

I'm really confused here. I uninstalled Twitter a while ago, are you guys angry at chairs now?

[Mykhel.6532]

9 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

If anet is so progressive, then why do we still have different greatsword animations for humans and norns based on gender?

That's your question/argument? Flair. The same animations is boring and at the beginning, Anet really loved to make unique, notable actions. I am confident gender had nothing to do with the development of those moves.

 

9 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

What about the /sit emote?

I genuinely do not know what you mean by this. Is there something defining regarding the /sit emote?

 

9 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Had anet truly care about some "inclusiveness", we would have gotten an animation choice option long time ago. (probably a gemstore paid one, lmao).

Again, this is a strange argument for inclusiveness. Are you arguing that because you can't modify the behavioral actions of your character due to their race/sex in-game, they're not inclusive? Or not inclusive enough?

[Mykhel.6532]

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I don't agree that it strongly impacts Guildwars 2 like some tend to think it does.

I agree this is subjective because some people don't care about the story. However, it's a large part of the game for me.

 

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Anet could have easily gone down the road with Cantha and painted all the purist canthans as evil but they didn't.

Uhh, which purists were painted "good?"

 

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I would say Gw2 does more than most games these days to paint opposing factions as people with simply different views rather than just flat out evil and everything they represent is bad..

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I think the villains before (apart from Zhaitan) all had far more depth, character, development, and passion than anything that was in EoD. Soo-Won, this supposed "Mother" Dragon, is quite literally the worst character in the game thus far. Not only did she KNOWINGLY bring 5 wildly evil and destructive forces into Tyria because "she was lonely," but she stood idle while they ravaged the world and all the life upon it... I guess because she loved them? It's insane to believe love is the acceptance of any and all behaviors. Love INCLUDES reprimand! Reprimand and discipline guides children in the right direction. But she just said "Meh. At least I'm not lonely." Not to mention Soo-Won is NEVER mentioned in previous lore. There is speculation the Quaggan and Krait moved out of the sea due to her awakening, but it could have as easily been because of Zhaitan. I believe she was an "ex machina" Elder Dragon that was written up with haste because their writers had written themselves into a corner with IBS.

 

I won't go too far with this one because I'll be writing my review for EoD soon to follow up from my OP.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

11 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

If anet is so progressive, then why do we still have different greatsword animations for humans and norns based on gender?

What about the /sit emote?

Had anet truly care about some "inclusiveness", we would have gotten an animation choice option long time ago. (probably a gemstore paid one, lmao).

I've avoided commenting on this thread so far, but you've forced to ask: Are You Trolling? Or is this how the terminally-Twitter people think now?

[Noc Rubu.5804]

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I've avoided commenting on this thread so far, but you've forced to ask: Are You Trolling? Or is this how the terminally-Twitter people think now?

Idk but it seems to me the few want everyone to live in an alternate reality?  This narative.. failed, the new movies today...failed, the new tv shows like this failed... on and on.  What is the issue?

[Kalavier.1097]

42 minutes ago, Soupeod.5714 said:

Idk but it seems to me the few want everyone to live in an alternate reality?  This narative.. failed, the new movies today...failed, the new tv shows like this failed... on and on.  What is the issue?

The issue is people on both sides on twitter taking the tiniest things and exploding them and screaming in everybody's face about it.

Like the people who plaster their entire car with political stickers and constantly talk about their preferred senator or such, and then recoil and go "Why are you shoving your politics in my face, I just wanna be left alone and chill and have a normal dinner" Despite them launching into an unasked for rant about why Bob is the worst senator to walk the planet while everybody else wants to eat their burgers.

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I think the villains before (apart from Zhaitan) all had far more depth, character, development, and passion than anything that was in EoD. Soo-Won, this supposed "Mother" Dragon, is quite literally the worst character in the game thus far. Not only did she KNOWINGLY bring 5 wildly evil and destructive forces into Tyria because "she was lonely," but she stood idle while they ravaged the world and all the life upon it... I guess because she loved them? It's insane to believe love is the acceptance of any and all behaviors. Love INCLUDES reprimand! Reprimand and discipline guides children in the right direction. But she just said "Meh. At least I'm not lonely." Not to mention Soo-Won is NEVER mentioned in previous lore. There is speculation the Quaggan and Krait moved out of the sea due to her awakening, but it could have as easily been because of Zhaitan. I believe she was an "ex machina" Elder Dragon that was written up with haste because their writers had written themselves into a corner with IBS.

The thing is, they weren't wildly evil and destructive at first. they turned into what we see in GW2 era over a great many many years. They didn't spawn and instantly start destroying and changing the world around them.

Also, bad parents exist. This is a thing.

 

Also, all lore before EoD left the deep sea dragon explicitly and completely vague allowing them to do anything they want. Out of universe we only knew that A: it existed and B: it was awake/active.

In universe we had theories that it drove the Krait and quaggan out of the ocean, but that was because we couldn't imagine anything else completely uprooting the krait civilization from the deep oceans, causing them to wipe out the quaggan kingdom and forcing them likewise out of the water. The deep dragon's name was part of the destroyed/damaged parts of ancient texts (which is believable)  and we had no idea where it even was. the Karka were assumed to be driven up by dragons, but we have no proof of that either.

Hell, the only thing we had was the inquest "Maybe" having caught a deep sea dragon minion, which could've been any sea monster as it's never shown, as the crucible of eternity is destroyed before it can be relocated there.

Zhaitan was never considered part of the Krait movements, as Zhaitan was at Orr. The Krait fled from the deeper oceans. We can even see Quaggan refugees swimming past Orr in one map, coming from the ocean to rest before heading further north.

 

The final elder dragon both in and out of universe was explicitly a huge number of unknowns. The only known detail was the letter S. Hence why people swapped from calling it "bubbles" to selbbub or steeve or whatever.

13 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

This was a good take imo.

While I get the whole.. Uhhgg Politics thing that people are really sick of forcing it's way into everything these days (myself included), I don't agree that it strongly impacts Guildwars 2 like some tend to think it does.

Anet could have easily gone down the road with Cantha and painted all the purist canthans as evil but they didn't.
Sure we had some scraps with them and the story mandated we be on opposing sides to them but at the end of the day we did end up allying with them to beat the void despite our differences and views.

I would say Gw2 does more than most games these days to paint opposing factions as people with simply different views rather than just flat out evil and everything they represent is bad..
And if I recall correctly that attitude has even angered some individuals in the past who have complained that humanizing people and views that they personally don't like is a mistake that leads to harmful real world consequences.

Purists weren't really involved with Dragon's End, though I do recall they explicitly included a scene of the Purist leader asking that his dog be taken care of and treated well, and that besides his radical views on a few subjects, he was pretty normal otherwise.

[Teratus.2859]

7 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Uhh, which purists were painted "good?"

I didn't say good, just that they were not painted as evil.
At best you could say they were depicted as misguided or bigoted, but not evil like other factions such as the Nightmare Court and the Inquest have been claimed to be in the past.

7 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I think the villains before (apart from Zhaitan) all had far more depth, character, development, and passion than anything that was in EoD. Soo-Won, this supposed "Mother" Dragon, is quite literally the worst character in the game thus far. Not only did she KNOWINGLY bring 5 wildly evil and destructive forces into Tyria because "she was lonely," but she stood idle while they ravaged the world and all the life upon it... I guess because she loved them? It's insane to believe love is the acceptance of any and all behaviors. Love INCLUDES reprimand! Reprimand and discipline guides children in the right direction. But she just said "Meh. At least I'm not lonely." Not to mention Soo-Won is NEVER mentioned in previous lore. There is speculation the Quaggan and Krait moved out of the sea due to her awakening, but it could have as easily been because of Zhaitan. I believe she was an "ex machina" Elder Dragon that was written up with haste because their writers had written themselves into a corner with IBS.

I don't think she knowingly brought evil dragons to the world, and much of their behaviour was due to their corruption.

I think the problem with people defining the dragons as "evil" is because we're humanizing them too much.
They're not people, not mortals.. they don't play by our rules or adhere to our sense of morality.

Dragons are basically Gods above mortals in many ways, especially ones with the power to match a god, Elder Dragons.
We are essentially the Ant calling the Boot Evil in that scenario.

As I also said in another thread Tyria should not have existed in the first place either, Soo Won tampered with the natural forces of Magic, fragmented it into individual domains and created Tyria.
The dragon corruption and the dragon void too cannot be defined as evil either due to it being the result of that natural state of magic trying to return to what it was, pushing back against what Soo Won did to it.
The Dragonvoid is comparable in that way to a Hurricane or more appropriately an E.L.E (Extinction level event) caused but a meteor or something.. it's raw, primal nature pushing back against what is essentially an unnatural state of existence.

I can't define Soo Won as evil either.. and to do so would be to define all real world religious deity's as inherently evil as well, since she basically did the same thing many religious people believe their God did, create a world and fill it with life.
Can we really blame her for doing this when she alone exists in a universe of nothing?
If you're a religious person could you blame your God for doing the same?
If you're not religious like myself then you'll have to ask yourself the same question, if it were you alone in endless nothingness.. and had the power to create.. wouldn't you act? or would you suffer alone in the abyss for all eternity?

 

What I do agree on though is that Soo Won got rebranded from big evil water dragon to what she became in End of Dragons.

This isn't inherently a bad thing though and it has left the door open for a pretty interesting mystery which myself and other players have had a lot of fun speculating on and hoping for future water content based on it.
Soo Won may not be the monster in the deep but Anet hasn't overlooked that previous lore and we did get some info about that in EoD.
We don't know what it is, where it came from or how we're going to deal with it but there is definitely something nasty down in the depths of the ocean and we know that it was powerful enough to warrant the attention of an Elder Dragon.

Personally I am very exited about that story and I really want to explore it in Gw2's future.

[Teratus.2859]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Purists weren't really involved with Dragon's End, though I do recall they explicitly included a scene of the Purist leader asking that his dog be taken care of and treated well, and that besides his radical views on a few subjects, he was pretty normal otherwise.

Aye that was the part that annoyed some people and lead to those "humanizing" comments I mentioned.

Anet could have very easily gone down a "all these people are evil" road but they didn't, and it's good that they didn't.

In many ways he was a lot like the protagonist and it's very easy to see things from his perspective because of that.
Some self righteous foreigners coming to your country and everywhere they go chaos follows.
We really did make a mess in Cantha.. a lot of messes actually and without Soo Won powering their cities we've effectively destroyed modern Cantha and forced it to change.

And not just Cantha.. look back at Elona and other places we've been, similar things again.
Palawa Joko even called us out on this back in Season 4 with his awesome "So I, May save the world.. from YOU!" speech.

Personally I really want to see more of Minister Li in future story, he has great potential to be another enemy turned ally much like Canach, Mai Trin, Ivan and Zafirah all were.. not to mention others.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Uhh, which purists were painted "good?"

Minister Li after being captured. Min talks about how he was nice and has a dog and how it's "weird to think of purists as humans" or something.

 

It was a very, very weird thing to slap in at the end after making him the most bland, shallow, and predictably racist stereotype and after filling the Purist NPCs up with southern American redneck accents (which is rather racist when they hire a bunch of asian VAs for all the major Canthan characters...) and neo-kitten parallelisms.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The issue is people on both sides on twitter taking the tiniest things and exploding them and screaming in everybody's face about it.

Like the people who plaster their entire car with political stickers and constantly talk about their preferred senator or such, and then recoil and go "Why are you shoving your politics in my face, I just wanna be left alone and chill and have a normal dinner" Despite them launching into an unasked for rant about why Bob is the worst senator to walk the planet while everybody else wants to eat their burgers.

.... you just gave me flashbacks to visiting my family years ago... thanks...

Edited October 6, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Mykhel.6532]

8 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I don't think she knowingly brought evil dragons to the world, and much of their behavior was due to their corruption.

Yes, she did. It's in the dialogue after the assault on the tower when you take down Soo-Won in the open world.

Aurene: Soo-Won, I...I sometimes think about everything that happened to your children—if there was some other way—

Soo-Won: No, they were bound to their nature.

Soo-Won: But in that brief time we had together, before their fated purpose set in, it was...blissful.

Soo-Won: But the truth is, as I'd look down at them, sleeping soundly, I was already mourning them.

 

She created them mindless (which makes no sense because Jormag was intelligent) forces of nature. As living tools to fight the void.

Soo-Won: I didn't want to hurt anyone.

Aurene: What is this place?

Soo-Won: It was the beginning...

Soo-Won: Where I brought my children into being when all was timeless, cold, and empty...

Soo-Won: And with their coming, I watched as the world grew all around...full of hope in the warmth of a maturing sun.

Aurene: Primordus, Kralkatorrik, the others...they were all here as the world formed?

Soo-Won: A while, yes. I created them as tools—mindless as Nature—to stay the Void's unrelenting push toward entropy...

 

She is an incredible villain. The Ex-Machina Dragon who caused untold billions to die under the Dragon cycle for the "greater good." As I played through the story, I had no sympathy for this Dragon but I felt the writers wanted me to have sympathy for her... which is insane. There was clearly another way to stave off the void and an all-encompassing, creationist Elder Dragon didn't figure it out... her offspring and the races of Tyria did. What ludicrous writing.

8 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

At best you could say they were depicted as misguided or bigoted, but not evil like other factions such as the Nightmare Court and the Inquest have been claimed to be in the past.

Neither of these factions are "evil" to those within the groups. They are groups that have very chaotic neutral views of the world. The Nightmare Court think of the Dream as a fixed destiny of which they want no part. They want all Sylvari to be free to do whatever they want. Their whole dilemma is fighting destiny. Scarlet was the greatest example of this... she discovered they were meant to be slaves to Mordremoth and it drove her to try and rip control from everyone's hands. Do they go about it wrong? Sometimes. But evil? No. The Inquest is the same. They are completely chaotic neutral. They love and dedicate their entire lives to science. This love causes a decreased value of human life because they put expanding their knowledge over everything else--even themselves. The same thing is seen in the real world where people operate on small animals, mutilate them, use chemicals, etc. but advancements in science are made off their work. They don't see it as evil, in fact, they see it as doing what others will not for the betterment of the world. So I completely disagree with your premise that these groups are evil.

 

8 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

As I also said in another thread Tyria should not have existed in the first place either, Soo Won tampered with the natural forces of Magic, fragmented it into individual domains and created Tyria.

Again, this is never mentioned pre-EoD. Not once. This appears to have been written in haste or drastically altered from another direction the story was going. I believe the void was the endgame, but this was not the route it was supposed to go. I can think of so many different ways this could have been better written, but it's not my story.

 

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Personally I am very exited about that story and I really want to explore it in Gw2's future.

I wish I could say the same.

 

8 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Palawa Joko even called us out on this back in Season 4 with his awesome "So I, May save the world.. from YOU!" speech.

Joko was a massive narcissist with somewhat good intentions of giving people eternal life... at the cost of their freedom. In many ways, you could even view this transformation as a way to combat the dragons without loss of life. I would guess he would have viewed the Dragon cycle as a necessity... and that corrupting it would destroy the world. He just wanted to live through the dragon crap. But to say that his phrase defined how we "messed up Elona" is a bit ridiculous. Elona was never cut off from the world. He was stating how he would change history to make him the hero... just like the event in Vabbi where the Actors portraying Turai Ossa and Joko's fight on the Bridge in Kourna in GW1 ends with Joko winning... but in reality, he lost.

 

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Minister Li after being captured. Min talks about how he was nice and has a dog and how it's "weird to think of purists as humans" or something

Yeah. He get no depth as a character, gets talked down to from all other authorities, not a single accomplishment is ever listed that he performed...but hey, he's got a dog. OH! HE'S SO HUMAN NOW! Trash. Writing.

 

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It was a very, very weird thing to slap in at the end after making him the most bland, shallow, and predictably racist stereotype and after filling the Purist NPCs up with southern American redneck accents (which is rather racist when they hire a bunch of asian VAs for all the major Canthan characters...) and neo-kitten parallelisms.

Oh dear God... I thought I was the only one that noticed that piece... It's so kitten racist. But hey, maybe they have Dogs?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Neither of these factions are "evil" to those within the groups. They are groups that have very chaotic neutral views of the world. The Nightmare Court think of the Dream as a fixed destiny of which they want no part. They want all Sylvari to be free to do whatever they want. Their whole dilemma is fighting destiny. Scarlet was the greatest example of this... she discovered they were meant to be slaves to Mordremoth and it drove her to try and rip control from everyone's hands. Do they go about it wrong? Sometimes. But evil? No. The Inquest is the same. They are completely chaotic neutral. They love and dedicate their entire lives to science. This love causes a decreased value of human life because they put expanding their knowledge over everything else--even themselves. The same thing is seen in the real world where people operate on small animals, mutilate them, use chemicals, etc. but advancements in science are made off their work. They don't see it as evil, in fact, they see it as doing what others will not for the betterment of the world. So I completely disagree with your premise that these groups are evil.

Evil people generally don't see what they're doing as evil. That doesn't make them not evil.

Experimenting on living things against their will, kidnapping, torture, mutilation, and other atrocities, both the Inquest and Nightmare Court are, by all definitions, evil.

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It was a very, very weird thing to slap in at the end after making him the most bland, shallow, and predictably racist stereotype and after filling the Purist NPCs up with southern American redneck accents (which is rather racist when they hire a bunch of asian VAs for all the major Canthan characters...) and neo-kitten parallelisms.

What? I live in Texas and can tell you none of the purist henchmen Minister Li has with him during the rooftop fight sound like "southern American redneck" accents.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[keramatzmode.1906]

Borderlands and Marvel ruins modern writing. Everyone are forced to give out one liners in every oppoturnity they have, and the hack writers think its a dopamine hit for the players so they'll cram as much of it in any form of media. 
If everyone loves canach, then they'll make everyone canachs. If everyone loves Joko, now we give everyone "Joko moments" and call it a good writing, disregarding the plot.
Now in regards to the woke writing.
Western population has been brainwashed into thinking, shoehorning these virtue singalling and political commentary in their "works of art" is similar to the Reneissance works, and get internet brownie points as a form of "reputation". Hoping they'll get a noble prize in literature one day.
In the world where public attention is a commodity, it is understandable they claw their way to the top to chase clout and their careers. There is no concept of art anymore. It's all just people trying to be relatable as much to the general public to reap as much oppoturnity as they can. 
In my opinion any type of story that comes out of modern western writers is unsalvagable, uninspiring, full of hypocrisy and without care to the original "material". And it's not just Guild Wars either, Warhammer, WoW, all had to be retconned in some ways to become more inclusive (read: to boost their popularity by becoming more relatable).

I'm not angry. It's just that I have to accept the fate of the failing country that I look always look forward to when I was a kid, but now crumbles in its own pursue of greed and colonialism in the form of social terrorism.
If I want to stay alive in their systems, such as this game and its forum, I must follow their "code of conducts" (read: censorship) otherwise I will be silenced and be dragged back into the cell. I might even be removed entirely from the system. There is no hope for dissenters, I must waddle through Guild Wars 2 experience that imo is a really well crafted MMO, but plagued by the storytelling that simply does not work at fundamental level, on top of all these nonsensical tokenism and downright sexist undertone. To a point if this game does not have a story, it would be an upgrade.

[Teratus.2859]

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Yes, she did. It's in the dialogue after the assault on the tower when you take down Soo-Won in the open world.

Aurene: Soo-Won, I...I sometimes think about everything that happened to your children—if there was some other way—

Soo-Won: No, they were bound to their nature.

Soo-Won: But in that brief time we had together, before their fated purpose set in, it was...blissful.

Soo-Won: But the truth is, as I'd look down at them, sleeping soundly, I was already mourning them.

Bound to their nature doesn't imply evil though.
Again these are Dragons, not humans.. they don't operate on the same rules as mortals do.
Different instincts, different natures, different sense of right and wrong.

And she also mentions fated purpose, the corruption that twisted them and how before that things were blissful in her own words.. happy.

Mourning the fall of your children is hardly unexpected either, there are plenty of real world people who still love their children despite the horrible things they've done and the crimes they commit.
It's very natural for a mother to always care about her children no matter what they become, even in humans.

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

She created them mindless (which makes no sense because Jormag was intelligent) forces of nature. As living tools to fight the void.

Soo-Won: I didn't want to hurt anyone.

Aurene: What is this place?

Soo-Won: It was the beginning...

Soo-Won: Where I brought my children into being when all was timeless, cold, and empty...

Soo-Won: And with their coming, I watched as the world grew all around...full of hope in the warmth of a maturing sun.

Aurene: Primordus, Kralkatorrik, the others...they were all here as the world formed?

Soo-Won: A while, yes. I created them as tools—mindless as Nature—to stay the Void's unrelenting push toward entropy...

Human babies are born mindless, pretty much all babies are.. operating on base instinct until they grow and develop.

That was probably her mistake, in thinking they would remain mindless and free from corruption.. at least she was right somewhat regarding Primordus, though despite being mindless he still fell to corruption and torment.

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

She is an incredible villain. The Ex-Machina Dragon who caused untold billions to die under the Dragon cycle for the "greater good." As I played through the story, I had no sympathy for this Dragon but I felt the writers wanted me to have sympathy for her... which is insane. There was clearly another way to stave off the void and an all-encompassing, creationist Elder Dragon didn't figure it out... her offspring and the races of Tyria did. What ludicrous writing.

Untold billions that were never supposed to exist in the first place.
Had she not created Tyria there would have probably been nothing but Soo Won and the Void for all time.

Yes she is responsible for the Elder Dragons but she's also responsible for the world and every living thing in it.

If you're religious and believe in a God, would you say he/she is evil for creating a world where natural disasters and deadly viruses exist?

It's basically the same thing as calling Soo Won evil, or a villain.. she is Guildwars 2's creationist God in basically every single way.
Without her there would be nobody to define her as evil in the first place.

And no there wasn't another way to stave off the void, they made that abundantly clear.
Aurene was the solution, a 3rd generation decendant of an Elder Dragon born thousands of years after the creation of the world and the Elder Dragons.. arguably a fluke of nature as well since we never got to see any of Glint's other children ascend to the status of Elder, so we don't know for sure if they would have become the same thing Aurene did or something different.

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Neither of these factions are "evil" to those within the groups. They are groups that have very chaotic neutral views of the world. The Nightmare Court think of the Dream as a fixed destiny of which they want no part. They want all Sylvari to be free to do whatever they want. Their whole dilemma is fighting destiny. Scarlet was the greatest example of this... she discovered they were meant to be slaves to Mordremoth and it drove her to try and rip control from everyone's hands. Do they go about it wrong? Sometimes. But evil? No. The Inquest is the same. They are completely chaotic neutral. They love and dedicate their entire lives to science. This love causes a decreased value of human life because they put expanding their knowledge over everything else--even themselves. The same thing is seen in the real world where people operate on small animals, mutilate them, use chemicals, etc. but advancements in science are made off their work. They don't see it as evil, in fact, they see it as doing what others will not for the betterment of the world. So I completely disagree with your premise that these groups are evil.

Yes but those groups are specifically recognised as evil within the game by characters who outright call them evil.

This was not done for the purists in End of Dragons to my knowledge, and there were efforts to humanize them as people who simply have different views.
Something that was not really done for the Inquest or the Nightmare Court, everything about those factions says "we're bad guys" even if they are as you say more on the chaotic neutral side of things.

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Again, this is never mentioned pre-EoD. Not once. This appears to have been written in haste or drastically altered from another direction the story was going. I believe the void was the endgame, but this was not the route it was supposed to go. I can think of so many different ways this could have been better written, but it's not my story.

Well that is the nature of writing a story.
But it hardly conflicts with anything concrete in the game's lore.

It's not every day a mortal gets to sit down and actually talk with basically THEE God of the world.
The only one who we can say for sure actually knew about the void in the first place.

So much of Tyria's history has been destroyed by the Elder Dragons.
We have had constant "this is the answer" situations in the story followed by an "I was wrong" scenario.
This is very much in line with how scientists learn about the real world.. at one point they all agreed the world was flat and the round earth theory was regarded as ridiculous nonsense.. if not outright propaganda.

The journey through Gw2 is very much a discovery story as well as an adventure.
We've learned a lot about the world since we were that fresh faced adventurer leaving our starting zones with the "Elder dragon bad, must kill" attitude.
Now we're a seasoned commander, a guild leader, a Dragon Slayer, God Killer, The Champion of the last living Elder dragon and we know the true origins of our world's creation.
We've even died and come back.. almost twice.

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I wish I could say the same.

Not a fan of water content eh? 😛

Shame, but each to their own ^^

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Joko was a massive narcissist with somewhat good intentions of giving people eternal life... at the cost of their freedom. In many ways, you could even view this transformation as a way to combat the dragons without loss of life. I would guess he would have viewed the Dragon cycle as a necessity... and that corrupting it would destroy the world. He just wanted to live through the dragon crap. But to say that his phrase defined how we "messed up Elona" is a bit ridiculous. Elona was never cut off from the world. He was stating how he would change history to make him the hero... just like the event in Vabbi where the Actors portraying Turai Ossa and Joko's fight on the Bridge in Kourna in GW1 ends with Joko winning... but in reality, he lost.

Yes he is a narcissist but he wasn't wrong about us at all.

We were destroying the world, literally by killing the Elder Dragons and we were ignorant to think there would be no consequences to those actions.
We killed one of the human gods, after one of our Guildmembers released him upon the world in the first place which directly lead to Elona being invaded and messed up.
And we also spared Kralkatorrik in the process of killing Balthazar, which allowed him to absorb the fallen God, become even more powerful and then fly off carving yet another brandscar across Elona.

Joko was right to call us out on our self righteous arrogance, we are responsible for a lot of the chaos in the world.
That doesn't make Joko a good guy in any way though, he was just another jerk with an agenda.
And we may be the good guys in the story but that doesn't mean we're not responsible for much of the damage our actions have caused in the world either.

The commander has very much operated on a "the ends justify the means" mentality for much of the game.
And so have many of the game's villains as well.

 

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

I think it's impossible to dissociate "politics" and "ideology" from storytelling since politics and ideology are so present in pretty much all areas of our lives. To me personally, a story that doesn't touch on political/ideological things would be like a story not using any sort of language or words. 

[Mykhel.6532]

14 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Bound to their nature doesn't imply evil though.
Again these are Dragons, not humans.. they don't operate on the same rules as mortals do.
Different instincts, different natures, different sense of right and wrong.

That isn't even the main focus of point. Did these dragons claim untold lives on Tyria? Did she create them as mindless tools? Did she create them knowing this? All answers are YES.

 

14 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

And she also mentions fated purpose, the corruption that twisted them and how before that things were blissful in her own words.. happy.

Oh, well shoot! I mean, at least SHE was happy for a time and things were blissful! I guess that makes up for all the lives that were lost as a result.

 

14 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Mourning the fall of your children is hardly unexpected either, there are plenty of real world people who still love their children despite the horrible things they've done and the crimes they commit.

This comparison is ridiculous. You do not KNOW the fate of your children when you have them... She KNEW before and after she created them.

 

14 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Human babies are born mindless, pretty much all babies are.. operating on base instinct until they grow and develop

Humans aren't all consuming, element-based dragons with the capacity of consuming life on a massive scale. Humans might be capable of taking large-scale life (and I mean thousands-millions)... but not alone.

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Well that is the nature of writing a story.
But it hardly conflicts with anything concrete in the game's lore.

No. It isn't. Maybe when writing a new story, sure. But this is a decade of lore. Writing over your lore to create an ex-machina dragon that never existed is lore-altering. It conflicts with a ton of lore. The very fact that the so-called balance of the elements was some "shield" from the void means we would've seen void creatures after the fall of Zhaitan. But we didn't we saw a rush to consume both by Balthazar and Kralkatorrik.  Not to prevent the void from coming (which is weird how a literal God, Balthazar didn't know about the Void and the protection of the balance)... which counters the entire premise of Path of Fire. Meaning Balthazar, if successful would have been destroyed by the Void as a result of his own stupidity. I was even fine with Soo-Won just being a lost Elder Dragon... but then they made her into this Mother Dragon, creationist... which is also stupid because what is the void? Why didn't the Void kill her to begin with? Why did the Void allow her to make children who were going to help her stave off the void? The balance didn't exist before her children. What changed? Do you see how stupid of a decision this was? There is no logic in this Villain. She is the dumbest character in all of Guild Wars.

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It's not every day a mortal gets to sit down and actually talk with basically THEE God of the world

I would skip it. She was the worst "god" in any writing I've ever seen. She created 5 children she couldn't control. Wasn't strong enough to take in the VERY POWER she gave to her children and ended up being consumed by the void before being killed by her own "creations." What about what I said here is untrue? What about what I said defines any God you've ever heard? And don't say the Human gods. They weren't really gods either.

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

So much of Tyria's history has been destroyed by the Elder Dragons.
We have had constant "this is the answer" situations in the story followed by an "I was wrong" scenario.
This is very much in line with how scientists learn about the real world.. at one point they all agreed the world was flat and the round earth theory was regarded as ridiculous nonsense.. if not outright propaganda.

No. We've had a development process. Taimi discovered the Ley-line connection between Dragons, she discovered the machine that would lead to the vision of The Eternal Alchemy--which shows the balance of the Dragons--which is the only time I've ever seen Water noted. In that very vision it shows Mordremoth consuming everything. Kralkatorrik nearly consumed the entirety of the mists. I guess these mindless tools are broken because by this logic, they want the void to come destroy everything. Hell, not even Jormag talks about preserving some balance against the void. She wanted Primordus DEAD!

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

We've even died and come back.. almost twice.

All within the confines of established lore.

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Not a fan of water content eh? 😛

I wish it was as simple as that... but it's not. It's bad writing.

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

We were destroying the world, literally by killing the Elder Dragons and we were ignorant to think there would be no consequences to those actions.

This is a ludicrous statement. You make it sound like we were actively trying to decimate Tyria. And it's crazy to believe it was just your hero. All 5 races and their respective armies/factions participated in the defeats of every elder dragon. It was kill or be killed. Then it became 'how do we stop the Elder Dragons without hurting the world.' That's called a well-written story. Everything was ok and made sense with the lore up until IBS.

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

That doesn't make Joko a good guy in any way though, he was just another jerk with an agenda.

Never once said he was a good guy.

 

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

The commander has very much operated on a "the ends justify the means" mentality for much of the game.
And so have many of the game's villains as well.

This isn't true at all. Our character put Primordus to sleep instead of killing it. They SAVED Kralkatorrik from Balthazar. They have tried to reason with nearly every villain in the game. Please provide an example of this statement because I don't see this.

 

4 hours ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

I think it's impossible to dissociate "politics" and "ideology" from storytelling since politics and ideology are so present in pretty much all areas of our lives.

Then please explain how they did it for the first 5-6 years of the game.