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Your bad-guys are merely unpleasant


Zebulous.2934

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10 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

Yeah Minister Lee kind of came out of the blue. I don't even recall anymore what he was doing inside the ministry that was wrong.  
I just remember from the strike that he thinks he's the future of Cantha or something. And I have a vague memory that he's right wing or something. And supposedly that was enough to oust him and portray him as a villain.  

Minister Li was outed as a Purist, which is a Canthan organization even worse than the White Mantle, that's pretty much all you have to know, on top of he actively being against the protagonists and, literally everything they tried to do in Cantha.

It was not until his encounter that he really attempted against the main character given it was under his custody and he finally got the chance to get rid of you.

Edited by Wolfb.7025
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39 minutes ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

Minister Li was outed as a Purist, which is a Canthan organization even worse than the White Mantle, that's pretty much all you have to know, on top of he actively being against the protagonists and, literally everything they tried to do in Cantha.

It was not until his encounter that he really attempted against the main character given it was under his custody and he finally got the chance to get rid of you.

Yeah, except him being a purist (or purist sympathizer) got stapled on in the last moment. Up to that point he was just against the protagonists out of serious (and justifable, tbh) concerns about a security of his nation. Notice, btw, that even in the last moment what he was doing was not motivated by selfish reasons but his genuine concerns for Cantha.

Notice also, that being concerned about some other people working alongside known terrorists group, about excessive use of potentially dangerous and untested technology, and about presence of foreigners that seem to be trying to get one's country into some sort of crisis does not make someone a villain. Even if that happens to set them against you.

That's probably why he got turned into a purist - so we could justifably beat him up and shrug off all of his (quite valid) concerns.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yeah, except him being a purist (or purist sympathizer) got stapled on in the last moment. Up to that point he was just against the protagonists out of serious (and justifable, tbh) concerns about a security of his nation. Notice, btw, that even in the last moment what he was doing was not motivated by selfish reasons but his genuine concerns for Cantha.

Notice also, that being concerned about some other people working alongside known terrorists group, about excessive use of potentially dangerous and untested technology, and about presence of foreigners that seem to be trying to get one's country into some sort of crisis does not make someone a villain. Even if that happens to set them against you.

That's probably why he got turned into a purist - so we could justifably beat him up and shrug off all of his (quite valid) concerns.

Exactly this.

"He is the bad guy because we say so and that is all you need to know," is a truly awful way to implement an engaging antagonist.

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14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yeah, except him being a purist (or purist sympathizer) got stapled on in the last moment. Up to that point he was just against the protagonists out of serious (and justifable, tbh) concerns about a security of his nation. Notice, btw, that even in the last moment what he was doing was not motivated by selfish reasons but his genuine concerns for Cantha.

Notice also, that being concerned about some other people working alongside known terrorists group, about excessive use of potentially dangerous and untested technology, and about presence of foreigners that seem to be trying to get one's country into some sort of crisis does not make someone a villain. Even if that happens to set them against you.

That's probably why he got turned into a purist - so we could justifably beat him up and shrug off all of his (quite valid) concerns.

That was supposed to be a "Wham moment" that caused everything else to make sense once he tried to shut you down for good. He is an undercover purist, he's by any means the main villian, just an obstacle of your goal, one that could potentially become a  bigger threat given how much power he had within the goverment while being undercover.

By that point he has done much to just being antagonistic to the main character and very strict about rules, but it makes way more sense once you realize he's a purist, AKA a member of a xenophobic organization that outright hates anything that isn't a canthan human, yes, these are genuine concerns for Cantha, genuine xenophofic concerns btw. White Mantle was genuinely concerned about the Charr threat too!

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11 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

Yeah Minister Lee kind of came out of the blue. I don't even recall anymore what he was doing inside the ministry that was wrong.  

 

I just remember from the strike that he thinks he's the future of Cantha or something. And I have a vague memory that he's right wing or something. And supposedly that was enough to oust him and portray him as a villain.  

 

White Mantle are kind of obviously kittened up, drugged on that Blood Shard magic and such. Although they do want to oust the Charr from Ascalon, man would I like to see that! Perhaps a WvW map based on it. I digress.   

 

Yes the devs at Anet are very progressive and seem to struggle to make good story because their propaganda checklist also needs to be met while writing said story.

I think lee is more of a... id say closed up grampa? he doesnt like foreigners, us, to meddle in cantha and sees us as a threat, hes not a villain or a bad guy but more of a im the law and ill put you to jail, thinking how cantha has been closed of for so long it makes sense to have this kind of characters, and white mantle... well you have a hole map that was a lake and was literaly blown up by them, also raid misions involving them etcetera, true there are characters that arent well explained or that need better involvement, but so far mordremoth, balthazar, jormag, kralky, the "main" vilains, end up with a pretty good development and you can see the cruelty of their acts SPOILERS AHEAD  in almost every main part of the story we have a significant dead in our alies, be it your mentor in the orders, tryharder and the sylvarys, almorra, they even killed mai trin as her form of atonement, maybe asking for the same tipe of development in every other faction is a bit too much, maybe just mad close minded pedant policeman is enought for lee.

also think that in eod we had lee, ankka, soo won, aurene, the void, a lot of diferent characters and a limited time in the story to explain every one in detail, i worry more about the  gameplay part, wich was also pretty lackluster on launch.

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2 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I think it's more that they played a lot of mind games with the Commander.  While they have plagues and minions and more visual actions, they also play a lot of mind games with the Commander.  Joko causes a lot of self doubt and uncertainty. Jormag is talking to Aurene and it's like having a bad influence talking to your kid and you hope they see through it.  It's quite menacing.  

I agree. They had both a physicals and mental effect on the environment and story which made them better villains. 

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I liked Bangar.  Bangar was great; charismatic, cunning, cruel but not over the top, the end justifies the means. He had clear motives that made sense from his perspective. And then he gets surpassed by stupid Ryland just for that one o snap moment. And from then on all went downhill. I think it would be much better and wouldnt take anything from Ryland's struggle if he just stayed the naive soldier (which he never surpassed anyway) and Bangar would run the show till the end of the season. And by running the show I dont mean becoming Jormag's champion but possibly even exploit Jormag itself. 

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5 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Is that not seeing them being evil though. Jormag turned the norn to sons of svanir. Scarlet destroyed LA. Joko was turning people into his minions. These are all "in your face" evil actions. None of which are subtle imo. 

Scarlet was in your face. Joko did a lot of that stuff in the background and worked through agents. I never saw Joko personally do that stuff, but I did see him personally taunt me for half an hour and take me through a trap dungeon set up to batman me.

 

At the end of the day, we've seen the results of what they do a lot more than seeing them do it, but we know they did it. 

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I think Joko was actually the most evil villain yet, despite his charismatic attitude.

 

What alot of people didn't realise is scarabs only affecting Humans was just the incubation period, they still eat everything in their path as seen in the many lab tests. Joko planned to literally have all life in the world eaten alive and then brought back to serve him against their will.

 

Even Scarlet was relatively sane compared to this guy.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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5 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

That's the whole thing really. He has anti-immigration views so he's a vilain, and that's pretty much it.

Then you weren't paying attention to the story. Purists didn't just want people to "not immigrate", they were actively trying to exterminate all non-Canthans (even Humans from Tyria and Elona). While its not confirmed that Li was directly supporting them, its heavily insinuated just like with Bangar and the Renegades.

 

I'd like to see people make the same arguments about Bangar that they make about Li, even though up until the point where Bangar defected from the Legions he was exactly the same. One could even argue he had the Charr's best interests in mind until the end and it was Jormag manipulating him which pushed him off the deep end, but it still doesn't make him any less of a piece of trash.

 

"You will be the end of the Charr", just as Li would've been the end of Cantha had he won. They would've succumbed to their Jade Tech/Dragonvoid problems and died, possibly taking the entire world with them.

 

Players are good at conveniently ignoring the overall picture. Doing what you think is best, following what you believe in, doesn't make it right. Black and white morality doesn't really exist because all things are inherintly imperfect, and the only "right" thing in life is what benefits the greater good for everyone, everything else is just a distraction at best, and a step backwards at worst.

 

There's alot of people throughout history who thought they were paragons of progress, when they accomplished very little other than being a problem that others had to overcome.

 

Bangar would've got all Charr killed, and Li would've got all Canthans killed.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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3 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Then you weren't paying attention to the story. Purists didn't just want people to "not immigrate", they were actively trying to exterminate all non-Canthans (even Humans from Tyria and Elona). While its not confirmed that Li was directly supporting them, its heavily insinuated just like with Bangar and the Renegades.

It's heavily implied that Li was the "White Falcon" Aka a major, if not the biggest known leader of the Purist movement as of End of Dragons timeframe. The wiki at least directly names him as such, though I'm unsure if it's mentioned anywhere. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_White_Falcon

Heavily implies the White Falcon is a head of a ministry and is in close contact with Ihn, on a professional level, with other members being in charge or high ranking in ministries.

And yeah... the White Falcon was actively working toward the destruction of New Kaineng by a risen attack so the Purists could swoop in and save the day/rebuild it all (Much like they originally gained power with the Afflicted).

Now Li was cooperative in questioning and gave up other Purists, this may or may not have been part of a plan set up, or a play to take out weaker Purists and throw the trail off more important ones.

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6 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Then you weren't paying attention to the story. Purists didn't just want people to "not immigrate", they were actively trying to exterminate all non-Canthans (even Humans from Tyria and Elona).

Which, in context, is a completely reasonable decision considering they were just chilling before we arrived, and then immediately after we appeared, they lost their super battery Elder Dragon and reality itself started to warp before their eyes, bringing destruction to their continents.

 

They are absolutely in the right for blaming us for what's happening to them.

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2 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Which, in context, is a completely reasonable decision considering they were just chilling before we arrived, and then immediately after we appeared, they lost their super battery Elder Dragon and reality itself started to warp before their eyes, bringing destruction to their continents.

 

They are absolutely in the right for blaming us for what's happening to them.

Besides the whole fact that almost all of the country had no idea Soo-Won was in the reactor.

Also IIRC the whole "reality warping" stuff was picking up more toward the final arc then before.

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On 9/24/2022 at 11:53 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Besides the whole fact that almost all of the country had no idea Soo-Won was in the reactor.

Also IIRC the whole "reality warping" stuff was picking up more toward the final arc then before.

This is because Joon was keeping them in the dark so she could capitalise on Soo-Wons' usefulness. There had been power cuts before we arrived, but the excuse was 'technology in development'. Then we show up, along with the aetherblades and the proverbial really hits the fan.

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1 hour ago, Funky.4861 said:

This is because Joon was keeping them in the dark so she could capitalise on Soo-Wons' usefulness. There had been power cuts before we arrived, but the excuse was 'technology in development'. Then we show up, along with the aetherblades and the proverbial really hits the fan.

Actually it's explained ingame that the reason was security and safety, with the top government officials and the royal family knowing the truth. Joon wasn't exploiting Soo-won (no more then Soo-won allowed).

The power troubles were all very recent, like as EoD starts basically. The jade mechs malfunctioning was a brand new issue and I don't recall any mention of power cuts happening before the Commander got there.

After the reactor attack, the news comments on how some people claim to have seen Soo-won, or something that looked like her, fleeing the area. The actual knowledge of what went down inside was unknown to all, given how they(Xunlai and minster of security) assumed the Commander had destroyed the reactor and Mai-Trin died trying to stop them.

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That's not an explanation- it's a reason. It's amazing what you can get people to do in the name of safety (and security). Literally the whole point of Joon building the reactor is to exploit Soo-Wons' excess energy before anyone else figured it out. That's why she was so defensive around giving any information about it. I find it ironically amusing that the whole scene is thematically quite close to a certain lab in Wuhan and how the authorities handled information at that time.

 

The jade mechs malfunctioning was a recent development yes, but it started before we got there.

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1 hour ago, Funky.4861 said:

That's not an explanation- it's a reason. It's amazing what you can get people to do in the name of safety (and security). Literally the whole point of Joon building the reactor is to exploit Soo-Wons' excess energy before anyone else figured it out. That's why she was so defensive around giving any information about it. I find it ironically amusing that the whole scene is thematically quite close to a certain lab in Wuhan and how the authorities handled information at that time.

 

The jade mechs malfunctioning was a recent development yes, but it started before we got there.

This completely flies in the face of the fact Soo-Won suggested the deal, not Joon.

This seems to paint Joon as hoarding the dragon for herself, using her greed to prevent anybody else from trying to develop tech using the magic.

Soo-won literally states that she was the one who proposed the arrangement, and how it has benefited both

Quote
Soo-Won: It was I who proposed this arrangement to her. She's an audacious one, is she not?
Soo-Won: This place... it manages the flow of magic between me and Tyria's ley lines.
<Character name>: Manages?
Soo-Won: Joon used a different word. "Modulate."
Soo-Won: She takes the magic I shed to make new dragonjade. It's been a most harmonious arrangement.

As for who knows.

Quote
Joon: Well, I don't go around broadcasting her presence. It's strictly need to know.
Joon: The empress, the government, the invaluable workers of this groundbreaking reactor—many respond as you have.
Joon: But initial shock gives way to reason. We're building the foundation of progress.
Joon: I've harnessed Soo-Won's magic to lift up our civilization. And I want to bring that to all of Tyria.
<Character name>: You're offering jade tech to the entire world?
Joon: What I'm offering is freedom. Haven't all mortals suffered enough under the tyranny of dragon magic?
Gorrik: Hmm... That magic's becoming increasingly unstable.
Joon: An unexpected bug in the system. But it's only a minor setback. I can fix it.
<Character name>: You don't know that.
Joon: I'm not afraid of the unknown. No one could've foreseen jade technology until I made it reality. [...]

I'm sorry, but the actual story of EoD paints a different picture then the one you seem to be suggesting, at least from what I see?

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Ankka: You saw what I saw in the Mists. The rich lady wants to control the dragon cycle. You can't control chaos.
Captain Mai Trin: I believe in Joon.
 
So indeed, Joon does want the power of the dragon magic to herself, dispensing it as she sees fit to ingratiate herself with the common folk and fostering dependence on it. I noted that there was an earlier occurence with toxic waste being dumped in Echovald and the conclusion was that Joon paid-off the courts and the investigation closed. She's basically a corrupt oil baron.
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6 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:
Ankka: You saw what I saw in the Mists. The rich lady wants to control the dragon cycle. You can't control chaos.
Captain Mai Trin: I believe in Joon.
 
So indeed, Joon does want the power of the dragon magic to herself, dispensing it as she sees fit to ingratiate herself with the common folk and fostering dependence on it. I noted that there was an earlier occurence with toxic waste being dumped in Echovald and the conclusion was that Joon paid-off the courts and the investigation closed. She's basically a corrupt oil baron.

Taking the word of the woman who wants the world to burn into nothing and declares that anybody trying to stop the dragon cycle/save the world is wanting to play god, as truthful fact.

Quote
Reactor AI: Reactor temperature stabilized.
Ankka: You shouldn't have done that.
Captain Mai Trin: I shouldn't have embraced you. It took me too long to see just how empty you are.
Ankka: If it's between emptiness and hubris, I choose emptiness.
Ankka: You and that woman—you want to become gods. I just want to destroy 'em.
Captain Mai Trin: I wanted something more from my life. Purpose. Stability. Meaning.
Ankka: Then you picked the wrong profession. Captain.
Captain Mai Trin: Guess you were right after all.

She calls Mai Trin wanting purpose and stability as "wanting to be gods."

Ankka's comments are not a reliable source of judgement on characters. She literally views doing anything but accepting the end of the world as being a stupid endeavor, wanting to play god and have power.

I would very much take the words of Soo-Won who literally suggested the whole deal to Joon over the words of Ankka, who views Joon doing anything to help Soo-Won as "playing god wanting to control the dragon cycle"

 

edit: Not going to say Joon is perfect, but Ankka is hardly a good source for character intention.

Edited by Kalavier.1097
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Thing is, Ankka isn't wrong; she's not making a judgment on those characters either. Mai Trin was captain of the aetherblades because she wanted power and independence- she used Scarlet as a means to an end. And when Joon heard Soo-Wons' offer, she could see the money and influence rolling in; otherwise, why was she so secretive about what was powering jade tech?

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