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A "thank you" for rifle mechanist


Theocraft.6054

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Hi,

I am by no means "end game" player, I dabble in strikes, never attempted a raid. But I always preferred simple, power build (and hate weapon-swaps as anti-climatic forced mechanic) which... sucked heavily in this game and caused me to dropped it a few times in the past. I also love the rifle as a weapon but it rather sucked in the past on all classes in PvE. 

I simply love power mechanist as it is. If I could ask for something, it would be to have other classes also such nice and simple builds that are viable in strikes and generally helpful to other players (if only by having nice dps). 

So thank you Devs, this is exactly what I wanted in this game 🙂  

I would think that "easy" build should do like 80-90% of possible dps, and the rest for the more ambitious and active builds. That should keep LI players happy and useful, and top players would still be top on their preferred classes.

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Theocraft.6054 said:

thanks, I am aware of LI builds, I was trying a lot of them, but this is first time it is a decent POWER LI build and 'rifle' as a bonus 🙂 

The other LI are decent, the rifle one is not decent is actually overtuned which is why is getting nerfed. The other LI is the one that you are looking for.

Edited by Warscythes.9307
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You're gonna get all of the elitist mech-haters in here spamming confused emotes at your post/replies, but I agree.  It's nice not having to dance around the keyboard like Ray Charles and exacerbate my hand pains/Carpal tunnel just to do a fraction of what these 'top tier' players do.

And I'll paste this same response I put in the other threads hating on mech:
 

Everyone complaining about mechanist needs to see some comments from the other side.  These are taken from reddit comments:
 

Quote

"having played an engie since the beginning, I still find it a challenge. The mech build is the best of all of them but it is still tough. Autoattacks do not cut it, I have to resort to Bomb kit 1 for the best dps. 3400 dps I can crawl thru carefully to get to areas. I wish I could do the 14k dps auto that some streamers claim to be able to do. I think it's sometimes just smoke and mirrors to look good. I just wish my mesmer could do 3400 dps, they would be fun sorta"


 

Quote

"With the Xyonon build in all Exotics, with no food or utility and no outside buffs, but subtituting a Rifle for the Mace/Shield, I am mostly doing 2.2-2.6k DPS autoattacking with the mech helping. I had spikes of almost 8k on some fights when the crit gods favored me, or if I could align foes to take advantage of piercing. I ran around in PoF picking fights that had caused me trouble on other characters and generally they were really easy. Then I tried to solo a Bounty and that went hilariously badly. I will need to try harder and "git gud" before I can manage those."



I get the feeling that streamers and posters with an agenda are viewing top-geared mechanist builds as the standard, when that's clearly not the case.  When you have some posters running rampant crying that "Mechanist autoattack is doing 36k DPS!", while the vast majority of actual players aren't even getting half of that while obviously working in more than just AA spam, it creates a false narrative, and these people scream the loudest on the forums in order to get their way, where the devs and reps see this as valid feedback.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease", as the old saying goes, doesn't really apply when the wheel isn't squeaking nearly as much as the neighbor is claiming.

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5 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

You're gonna get all of the elitist mech-haters in here spamming confused emotes at your post/replies, but I agree.  It's nice not having to dance around the keyboard like Ray Charles and exacerbate my hand pains/Carpal tunnel just to do a fraction of what these 'top tier' players do.

And I'll paste this same response I put in the other threads hating on mech:
 

Everyone complaining about mechanist needs to see some comments from the other side.  These are taken from reddit comments:
 


 



I get the feeling that streamers and posters with an agenda are viewing top-geared mechanist builds as the standard, when that's clearly not the case.  When you have some posters running rampant crying that "Mechanist autoattack is doing 36k DPS!", while the vast majority of actual players aren't even getting half of that while obviously working in more than just AA spam, it creates a false narrative, and these people scream the loudest on the forums in order to get their way, where the devs and reps see this as valid feedback.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease", as the old saying goes, doesn't really apply when the wheel isn't squeaking nearly as much as the neighbor is claiming.

You do realize everyone is talking about the performance in instance content like raids and fractals right? Overworld content for the most part is not really taken into consideration. Why are you quoting comments about bounties and junk? Do you know the context behind all this discussion?

Edited by Warscythes.9307
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10 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

You do realize everyone is talking about the performance in instance content like raids and fractals right? Overworld content for the most part is not really taken into consideration. Why are you quoting comments about bounties and junk? Do you know the context behind all this discussion?

I think they've been spamming that post in basically every thread that discusses metanist.

I ran a test myself, and a rifle metanist in relatively low-end gear for someone who's unlocked an elite specialisation (mostly berserker exotics, no sigils, random runes rather than getting a set bonus) works out to 9k at long range, 10.5k at point blank on the golem with no boons apart from those the build creates itself, and that's by setting the golem skills on autocast, opening fire with the rifle auto, and then switching to another window. Performance in real combat may vary, but that's going to be the case with any comparison between golem tests and actual combat.

The issue is that the metanist is all but mechanic-proof while having a DPS that most builds require ideal conditions to match. 

It can and should still be a suitable LI build, but at the moment it's outperforming most of the power DPS field. And whatever performance is considered acceptable for power mechanist, should also be considered acceptable for LI builds on other professions.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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4 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

You do realize everyone is talking about the performance in instance content like raids and fractals right? Overworld content for the most part is not really taken into consideration. Why are you quoting comments about bounties and junk? Do you know the context behind all this discussion?

Proportionally, there's a lot more people doing overworld than instanced content, just like there's a lot more casual players than hardcore number crunchers.  Guess who's going to get effected more by the nerfs?

Every area of gameplay needs to be taken into consideration for balance, not just the absolute top end.

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13 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Proportionally, there's a lot more people doing overworld than instanced content, just like there's a lot more casual players than hardcore number crunchers.  Guess who's going to get effected more by the nerfs?

Every area of gameplay needs to be taken into consideration for balance, not just the absolute top end.

Mechanist is dominating open world content.  Just download arcdps and see for yourself.  For example, I just did DE meta.  There were 15 mechanists in a 48 player squad and the top 7 DPS were all mechanist (likely would have been 10 out of 10 if the other mechs in squad weren't alacrity support!).  This is typical and mirrors what you see in instanced content, where mechanist is one of the best DPS specs for all encounters.

I know from your copy/paste spam in every mech thread that you think this is good for the game.  Personally, I'm glad they got rid of the guy who agreed with that and replaced him with somebody that actually cares about class balance.

 

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4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Mechanist is dominating open world content.  Just download arcdps and see for yourself.  For example, I just did DE meta.  There were 15 mechanists in a 48 player squad and the top 7 DPS were all mechanist (likely would have been 10 out of 10 if the other mechs in squad weren't alacrity support!).  This is typical and mirrors what you see in instanced content, where mechanist is one of the best DPS specs for all encounters.

I know from your copy/paste spam in every mech thread that you think this is good for the game.  Personally, I'm glad they got rid of the guy who agreed with that and replaced him with somebody that actually cares about class balance.

 

What I'm trying to avoid with these posts is the knee jerk dumpstering of a spec that I do enjoy because some people got their panties in a twist about it.

Balance is one thing.  A lot of the anti-mech crowd do not want balance, they want the class ruined to sate some vindictive agenda against it.  If the devs end up listening to that vocal minority, we're all screwed.

I don't disagree that the class might be too easy to play and might be overperforming right now, but I don't want a complete swing in the opposite direction because those behind the wheel are being misinformed.  Mech is overtuned, but it's not as overtuned as many are making it out to be, and it doesn't take much to over-nerf and cause it to become another engineer spec that never gets invited to group content because it can't match other builds.

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14 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

You're gonna get all of the elitist mech-haters in here spamming confused emotes at your post/replies, but I agree.  It's nice not having to dance around the keyboard like Ray Charles and exacerbate my hand pains/Carpal tunnel just to do a fraction of what these 'top tier' players do.

And I'll paste this same response I put in the other threads hating on mech:
 

Everyone complaining about mechanist needs to see some comments from the other side.  These are taken from reddit comments:
 


 



I get the feeling that streamers and posters with an agenda are viewing top-geared mechanist builds as the standard, when that's clearly not the case.  When you have some posters running rampant crying that "Mechanist autoattack is doing 36k DPS!", while the vast majority of actual players aren't even getting half of that while obviously working in more than just AA spam, it creates a false narrative, and these people scream the loudest on the forums in order to get their way, where the devs and reps see this as valid feedback.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease", as the old saying goes, doesn't really apply when the wheel isn't squeaking nearly as much as the neighbor is claiming.

I just took my engie/mech to the Aerodrome golem for a test: 

I unequipped all armor.

My trinkets were ascended but were for a healing build. Some power.

I used the only rifle I had, ascended berzerker.

I did have a power food effect on because it still had time remaining and I do not know how to remove it.

I used a pretty normal Power Mech Rifle build with the usual signets plus Throw Mine.

I set my Mech F skills to autoactivate and used my weapon skills, Throw Mine, and the elite signet off cooldown.

My final DPS was 9.1k

AGAIN, this was naked, not a single piece of armor, with healers trinkets. 9.1k in my underwear. Those Reddit post numbers you keep quoting are not physically possible unless the poster is actively choosing to stop attacking for extended periods.

9.1k NAKED in HEALERS trinkets.

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4 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I just took my engie/mech to the Aerodrome golem for a test: 

I unequipped all armor.

My trinkets were ascended but were for a healing build. Some power.

I used the only rifle I had, ascended berzerker.

I did have a power food effect on because it still had time remaining and I do not know how to remove it.

I used a pretty normal Power Mech Rifle build with the usual signets plus Throw Mine.

I set my Mech F skills to autoactivate and used my weapon skills, Throw Mine, and the elite signet off cooldown.

My final DPS was 9.1k

AGAIN, this was naked, not a single piece of armor, with healers trinkets. 9.1k in my underwear. Those Reddit post numbers you keep quoting are not physically possible unless the poster is actively choosing to stop attacking for extended periods.

9.1k NAKED in HEALERS trinkets.

I just redid the test without the trinkets:

7.3k DPS

Naked, no backpack, no rings, no accessories, no amulet.

Just a rifle and the last few minutes of power food.

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2 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I just redid the test without the trinkets:

7.3k DPS

Naked, no backpack, no rings, no accessories, no amulet.

Just a rifle and the last few minutes of power food.

Decided to go ahead and override my power food buff by consuming healing food.

So, no armor, no trinkets, no damage buff from food or utility.

6.942k DPS

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35 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Decided to go ahead and override my power food buff by consuming healing food.

So, no armor, no trinkets, no damage buff from food or utility.

6.942k DPS

Final test was without any gear at all. Not even a weapon. No trinkets, no armor, no weapon, no food buff...just throw mine, the elite signet, and the mech itself. It took this level of self nerfing to be able to get down into the (low end) damage range claimed in the quoted reddit post.

 

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56 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Decided to go ahead and override my power food buff by consuming healing food.

So, no armor, no trinkets, no damage buff from food or utility.

6.942k DPS

That's pretty wild a spec can hit 7k DPS with no gear or buffs at all.  I don't know if that has any particular relevance, but it's surprising!

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1 hour ago, Lynx.9058 said:

What I'm trying to avoid with these posts is the knee jerk dumpstering of a spec that I do enjoy because some people got their panties in a twist about it.

Balance is one thing.  A lot of the anti-mech crowd do not want balance, they want the class ruined to sate some vindictive agenda against it.  If the devs end up listening to that vocal minority, we're all screwed.

I don't disagree that the class might be too easy to play and might be overperforming right now, but I don't want a complete swing in the opposite direction because those behind the wheel are being misinformed.  Mech is overtuned, but it's not as overtuned as many are making it out to be, and it doesn't take much to over-nerf and cause it to become another engineer spec that never gets invited to group content because it can't match other builds.

That's a reasonable concern.  But do consider that there are 35 other specs besides mechanist.  They don't want to be in the dumpster either, but a lot of specs that would feel pretty good currently don't feel very rewarding because they are so easily outperformed by mechanist and it's hard to find a group for anything these days that isn't full of mechanists.

I think the upcoming nerfs seem reasonable.  If anything, they won't be quite enough and there's certainly no danger of mechanist becoming irrelevant as a result.   CMC will have time to evaluate the impact of these changes before the next PvE patch.

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12 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's pretty wild a spec can hit 7k DPS with no gear or buffs at all.  I don't know if that has any particular relevance, but it's surprising!

Agreed.

The only relevance was to counter the claim being made regarding rifle mechanist hitting 2-4k (at the low end) DPS. I was genuinely curious how badly one would have to self handicap in order to reach those numbers without just not attacking most of the time.

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1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's pretty wild a spec can hit 7k DPS with no gear or buffs at all.  I don't know if that has any particular relevance, but it's surprising!

Most of that is coming from the mech, which has to have some stats on its own given it cannot equip gear and doesn't inherit all of the mechanists stats.

 

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's a reasonable concern.  But do consider that there are 35 other specs besides mechanist.  They don't want to be in the dumpster either, but a lot of specs that would feel pretty good currently don't feel very rewarding because they are so easily outperformed by mechanist and it's hard to find a group for anything these days that isn't full of mechanists.

I think the upcoming nerfs seem reasonable.  If anything, they won't be quite enough and there's certainly no danger of mechanist becoming irrelevant as a result.   CMC will have time to evaluate the impact of these changes before the next PvE patch.

 

Many of those other specs have been overperforming for years.  I don't exactly feel bad for them having some competition.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

What's vital to the longevity of the game is not driving away players, and PROPER balance.  "nerfing into the ground" is just as bad for the game as a spec being overtuned.

Yeah it's horrific for a game with 27 elite specs to have 1 with 33% representation in raids. Never before, even with just 9 elite specs, have we had 33% representation from a single one.

Players, good players, already quit when mech became utterly dominant. If players who want to press no buttons (and don't want to play the game) feel that doing less than 20k dps on the golem is not acceptable, they can 'play' something else, I mean some other game. 99% of GW2 players will have absolutely no problem with that, I promise you. Because ultimately having more viable specs and losing a few players ia definitely better than having 1 specialisation dominating and losing a lot of players.

Most of the threads on profession forums are about balance. That already tells you that's one if not the most important thing for a lot of players. 33% representation of a single specialisation is as little balance as anyone could possibly come up with, trying deliberately to favour one over the rest.

Edited by Karagee.6830
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In a 10 man raid, 3 of any one class or spec comes out to that.  I've been in plenty of raids with 3 firebrands, because they've been about as overplayed as mechanist up until recent patches (and they're still probably second highest).

Dropping a DPS spec to 20k makes it irrelevant when there are at minimum 14 other builds capable of benching over 30k, and some of those offer just as much support at the same time.  Hell, there's a low intensity firebrand build right now that benches 34k with 17-19 APM; do you see anyone bitching about that like everyone is about mechanist?  No, because it's been that way for so long everyone has gotten used to it being an eternal FOTM.

You want better representation from other specs?  Get them buffed and made less intensive, and you'll see them more often.  Nobody wants to play weaver or holosmith or any other build that requires crippling APM to even make it onto the meters.

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28 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

What's vital to the longevity of the game is not driving away players, and PROPER balance.  "nerfing into the ground" is just as bad for the game as a spec being overtuned.

Just to clarify since there seems to be a misunderstanding here: nerf ro the ground = nerf way way below the benchmark of any build which actually requires some effort to play. Because rifle mech requires no effort and it's fully ranged the gap between benchmark and actual performance is much lower than for any other build, this also needs to be accounted for, not just the benchmark in a vacuum (which is already a problem in its own right).

14 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

In a 10 man raid, 3 of any one class or spec comes out to that.  I've been in plenty of raids with 3 firebrands, because they've been about as overplayed as mechanist up until recent patches (and they're still probably second highest).

Dropping a DPS spec to 20k makes it irrelevant when there are at minimum 14 other builds capable of benching over 30k, and some of those offer just as much support at the same time.  Hell, there's a low intensity firebrand build right now that benches 34k with 17-19 APM; do you see anyone bitching about that like everyone is about mechanist?  No, because it's been that way for so long everyone has gotten used to it being an eternal FOTM.

You want better representation from other specs?  Get them buffed and made less intensive, and you'll see them more often.  Nobody wants to play weaver or holosmith or any other build that requires crippling APM to even make it onto the meters.

First that's an AVERAGE and it's so out of proportion that I don't even have to argue. Just go look at wingman data and tell us how many builds have ever passed 25% in the history of this game.

18-20k autoattack for a build which is very close to the benchmark in a raid scenario, with nearly 100% uptime being fully ranged, with golems ignoring mechanics players have to do is plenty to kill anything bar some CMs.

I won't be baited in the trite cop out that all other builds can be buffed far above mechanist so there is no need to nerf it. Power creep is bad for the game, autoattack builds that do more damage than the majority of builds including HI builds are bad for the game. The simplest solution is also the best. And it won't affect people who can't play HI builds because they will still be able to perform at a decent level with basically no effort. They simply won't be top dps anymore.

Also the difference between 19 APM and 0 APM should be clear to anyone.

Edited by Karagee.6830
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1 hour ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

   So power/riffle mechanist is the highest damage spec at this moment? My benchmarks aren't telling me that, with willbender and catalyst(my most used specs) i'm getting better numbers by a good margin

   I should be doing something wrong

Because it's not the highest damage spec, that's a false narrative being pushed by people that want to see it ruined.

 

It is among the highest damage low intensity specs, and among those its the only one that is primarily long range, which has given a lot of opposers this idea that it can just afk through all content while beating high intensity builds without even touching the keyboard (again, a false narrative)

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1 hour ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

   So power/riffle mechanist is the highest damage spec at this moment? My benchmarks aren't telling me that, with willbender and catalyst(my most used specs) i'm getting better numbers by a good margin

   I should be doing something wrong

I guess you must be for two reasons.  First, pmech has a higher benchmark than both of those builds and second (and more importantly) it easily outperforms those builds in actual gameplay.

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