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A "thank you" for rifle mechanist


Theocraft.6054

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On 9/27/2022 at 12:28 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

Final test was without any gear at all. Not even a weapon. No trinkets, no armor, no weapon, no food buff...just throw mine, the elite signet, and the mech itself. It took this level of self nerfing to be able to get down into the (low end) damage range claimed in the quoted reddit post.

 

I believe I can explain the phenomenon occurring in the reddit post. Aaaand just to be clear I am not commenting on game balance here, simply trying to offer potential explanations.

First is the simple fact that new players deal very low damage. When I first got my boyfriend into this game, he was pulling about 6k damage against a target golem on virtuoso, after convincing him to make a few changes to his gear and trait setup his dps immediately doubled. New/inexperienced players will end up griefing themselves with sub optimal gear/trait choices that kill their damage output. 

This explains why the engineer does low damage without factoring in the bot. 

To explain how sub 6k damage can be achieved even with the bot. It comes down to uptime. If mobs move too much, the melee  mech will struggle to land its attacks. When moving from mob to mob the bot may lag behind or get stuck off in narnia doing god knows what.

Anyone who plays mech can attest to the "where the **** is my robot" moments. They are all too common if you aren't actively managing it. 

If you jump down in ledge that is just a few pixils too high, the bot will take the long way around to catch up. Or the game may notice that you're airborne and decide to randomly despawn your mech. 

Because reasons. 

These issues are less severe with the ranged bot, but a new player may not know that or simply prefer how the melee bot looks/plays. 

Alternatively, they have their bot permenantly set to passive and don't realize it. (More common than you'd think)

None of these things (minus the passive golem) are things you'd notice when just slapping a stationary golem... Which is ironic since target golems vs real encounters comes up often when discussing mech dominance. Mech, a spec not punished by mechanics, and is instead punished by jank AI. 

Edited by Kuma.1503
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On 9/26/2022 at 11:05 PM, Theocraft.6054 said:

Hi,

I am by no means "end game" player, I dabble in strikes, never attempted a raid. But I always preferred simple, power build (and hate weapon-swaps as anti-climatic forced mechanic) which... sucked heavily in this game and caused me to dropped it a few times in the past. I also love the rifle as a weapon but it rather sucked in the past on all classes in PvE. 

I simply love power mechanist as it is. If I could ask for something, it would be to have other classes also such nice and simple builds that are viable in strikes and generally helpful to other players (if only by having nice dps). 

So thank you Devs, this is exactly what I wanted in this game 🙂  

I would think that "easy" build should do like 80-90% of possible dps, and the rest for the more ambitious and active builds. That should keep LI players happy and useful, and top players would still be top on their preferred classes.

 

 

 

 

Good news- even if they nerf the dmg of PowerMech really hard, like down to 10-12k for the no intensity auto-afk build and max. low 30k'ish for those playing the full rotation (keep in mind they keep the range and thus dps uptime advantage), ppl that don't play instanced endgame content would barely notice a difference and could still have fun with it.

Edited by Nash.2681
typo
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On 9/28/2022 at 8:40 AM, Karagee.6830 said:

This. It's laughable people are sneakily suggesting the idea that it is elite players who used to stack Catalysts who are now playing Mech. It's the people who found Virtuoso and Scourge too hard who are playing it in huge numbers. Either way, whatever the reason this spec has 33% representation it must be nerfed into the ground and Grouch seem to have understood that.

can't disagree with such big overrepresentation being unhealthy... 

in my eyes, still, the gap between average players and top-players shouldn't be as wide. So yes, kinda agree with some of those malicious comments regarding afk-builds. Ultimately even end-game players will be happy since all events and pugs will be smoother, and for casuals - open world & story contents will be less sluggish.

But I do agree that very active classes like weavers should be always TOP dps since they are that difficult. But not too much, 10-20% more than afk-builds otherwise then everybody will be forced to play hard classes (otherwise kicks) and people will start leaving the game.

11 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

 

People don't hate Power Mec existing. Its just too powerful for how uninvolved it is, that's all.

 

Even if it benched at 30k it would still be by far the best LI build in the game and perfectly viable for all normal mode encounters and a good chunk of the CMs in the game.

 

Power Mec getting nerfed just means playing Holo or Condi Mec is finally going to feel like a sensible choice again for people wanting to push their performances a bit further.

I guess, people like me - who actually just like rifle power mechanist, don't want it being nerfed too much so it is basically unplayable, boring, sluggish and so on. Or so bad that you will be kicked out of the group just for bringing this spec. 

But I do understand other spec-fans that it should all be more in line. The difference seem to be that I would make all LI-builds better for average players. It wouldn't hurt anybody and help most players.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Theocraft.6054 said:

[...]

I guess, people like me - who actually just like rifle power mechanist, don't want it being nerfed too much so it is basically unplayable, boring, sluggish and so on. Or so bad that you will be kicked out of the group just for bringing this spec. 

But I do understand other spec-fans that it should all be more in line. The difference seem to be that I would make all LI-builds better for average players. It wouldn't hurt anybody and help most players.

 

 

All people are asking for is to bring PMech in line. If A.Net will ever get the balancing across all specs somewhat right, imo it should look like something like this:

 

- Pure DPS Specs with full rotation, should bench at 37-40k, while still reaching around 30k in a real fight if played well; if the dmg can be applied consistently at range with almost no dps down time, cut the numbers by 20%.

- Offensive Supports with full rotation, should bench around low 30kish, while still reaching around 23k in a real fight  if played well

- LI DPS should bench around 20k and be able to get very close to that in a real fight

- No intensity afk dps builds should not go higher than 10-12k ever

- Heal Support builds should come out somewhere between 3-5k.

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1 hour ago, Nash.2681 said:

All people are asking for is to bring PMech in line. If A.Net will ever get the balancing across all specs somewhat right, imo it should look like something like this:

 

- Pure DPS Specs with full rotation, should bench at 37-40k, while still reaching around 30k in a real fight if played well; if the dmg can be applied consistently at range with almost no dps down time, cut the numbers by 20%.

- Offensive Supports with full rotation, should bench around low 30kish, while still reaching around 23k in a real fight  if played well

- LI DPS should bench around 20k and be able to get very close to that in a real fight

- No intensity afk dps builds should not go higher than 10-12k ever

- Heal Support builds should come out somewhere between 3-5k.

Based on the numbers you've given, I'd probably let the LI DPS builds get into the mid to high twenties in a real fight. Low enough that you're rewarded for learning the harder builds, but high enough that they actually do have a DPS role rather than being out-DPS'd by the offensive supports.

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15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Based on the numbers you've given, I'd probably let the LI DPS builds get into the mid to high twenties in a real fight. Low enough that you're rewarded for learning the harder builds, but high enough that they actually do have a DPS role rather than being out-DPS'd by the offensive supports.

Exact numbers are surely debatable, it's more about relations. And there I don't think that an LI DPS build should outperform any well played (not perfect, but above average level and way above pure random button mashing level) offensive build. Keep in mind that the LI build is more likely to perform close to its theoretical potential. And I suggested around 20k (give or take +/- 10%), since that's usually easily enough to beat any encounter without issues = accessability won't suffer.

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4 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Exact numbers are surely debatable, it's more about relations. And there I don't think that an LI DPS build should outperform any well played (not perfect, but above average level and way above pure random button mashing level) offensive build. Keep in mind that the LI build is more likely to perform close to its theoretical potential. And I suggested around 20k (give or take +/- 10%), since that's usually easily enough to beat any encounter without issues = accessability won't suffer.

Which is why I was listing numbers based on being relative to yours. I think outperforming the offensive supports on DPS is reasonable, otherwise you'll end up with people going "why should we take you instead of a third offensive support just to make sure we don't lose uptime". Having DPS that is still good, but not top-tier, means that at least it's reliable DPS.

Problem is that at the moment rifle metanist is close to top-tier.

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10 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which is why I was listing numbers based on being relative to yours. I think outperforming the offensive supports on DPS is reasonable, otherwise you'll end up with people going "why should we take you instead of a third offensive support just to make sure we don't lose uptime". Having DPS that is still good, but not top-tier, means that at least it's reliable DPS.

Problem is that at the moment rifle metanist is close to top-tier.

Valid point, I guess it depends on how well we expect the average offensive support player to perform. In my assumption, your average lfg offensive support will probably end up behind the LI-DPS players by 10-20%.

What I ment by "well played (not perfect, but above average level and way above pure random button mashing level)" is nothing I expect from 70-80% of PUG offensive support players. In any way this entire balancing model would need steady evaluation and to be adjusted accordingly if your scenario kicks in.

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On 10/1/2022 at 10:13 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

Mechanist and Holosmith should swap damage numbers. Then all is good

Wouldn't be enough. Holosmith is only a tad lower than pmech on the benchmarks, so if they swapped numbers, pmech would still be much easier to play as well as being much more resistant to mechanics.

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Again, pmech is only benching around 36k.  Other DPS builds are reaching up to 41k, so it's already 5k~ behind, and they're about to make changes that equate to a 4-5k DPS loss, so now we're gonna be almost 10k behind the benchmark of other dps classes.  That's more than enough considering the build's ease of play.

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4 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Again, pmech is only benching around 36k.  Other DPS builds are reaching up to 41k, so it's already 5k~ behind, and they're about to make changes that equate to a 4-5k DPS loss, so now we're gonna be almost 10k behind the benchmark of other dps classes.  That's more than enough considering the build's ease of play.

Its 38k not 36k

And what do you mean by "other dps builds"?

We can have a look and compare pmech with other p dps choices if u rly wanna that so lets see: we have 41k bladesworn and p deadeye, and unlike mech both of them have extremly punishing rotations, unlike mech they are melee, unlike mech pdeadeye have 0000000 cleave. So its fair at least for an effor to get +3k more in benchmark. And then we have power slb at 38k and unlike pmech again it at least have a rotation,its extremly reliant on boons, like have fun if you dont have stab on slb and get interupted or a target moves constantly. And the closest to pmech we have p virtuoso depending which build you play on it, its almost as braindead as pmech but at least again it has something you could call a rotation. And then we have your precious pmech at 38k bench, with no rotation but just pressing random 4 skills when they are off cd, fully ranged dps, on which skill floor doesnt exist because you instantly get to the 90-100% of the benchmark without any effort, no punishing rotation nothing, it even has free mobility, free sustain healing. Compared pmech to the rest of the dps choices its only fair that they are getting to the 34k benchmark range which is still gonna be too good considering all of the pros and 0 cons pmech will have even after "the nerf"

Plus lets compare pmech with dh, reaper and vindicator aswell and how forgotten those 3 are rn by anet. Vindicator is at 34k and in reality you wont even get that so you are just a mediocre melee dps without anything else to offer/cant even compete with the current meta, most of the time if u see slb or other similar meta pick in the party you can just close your eyes and dont even bother looking how behind you will be, or lets throw spellbreaker here aswell sitting at 31k and beeing played at only 1 Raid boss, wow truly amazing, and you wont even gonna find dh with reaper benchmarks which says it all 

So what do we have-kittened up meta where  more risk more reward doesnt exist in this game and Li builds beeing at the top level of current meta picks. And this crap demotivates every single player who dont play this li build, and on top there are even people who PLAY this li builds AND still wanna them out of existance

And all this comes from a person who seen those raids cms, strike cms, fract cms, iv seen all kinds of lfg groups unlike other people who are worried about their OW performance after  their 11111 builds gets 3k "nerf" (shocking news). Legit anyone who is defending those li builds and especially pmech they wouldnt even get into ANY pug group, and most likely they dont even do the content which gets impacted the most in this game by this crap balance.

Edited by soul.9651
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3 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Again, pmech is only benching around 36k.  Other DPS builds are reaching up to 41k, so it's already 5k~ behind, and they're about to make changes that equate to a 4-5k DPS loss, so now we're gonna be almost 10k behind the benchmark of other dps classes.  That's more than enough considering the build's ease of play.

Just keep that misinformation coming.  I'm sure CMC doesn't know his own game and will definitely fall for this.

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5 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

Again, pmech is only benching around 36k.  Other DPS builds are reaching up to 41k, so it's already 5k~ behind, and they're about to make changes that equate to a 4-5k DPS loss, so now we're gonna be almost 10k behind the benchmark of other dps classes.  That's more than enough considering the build's ease of play.

 First things first mech is on 38 not 36, second is that golem benchmarks /= encounters benchmarks, right now  mech has the maximum dps on 1/3 of the raid bosses on, strikes out of the 9 mech has the maximum dps in 6, this is absurd, catalyst was heavily nerfed for less.

 

sources : https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/bossBench

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