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WvW needs a new map, so lets use the one thats already there.


Sahne.6950

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18 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Ya, I'm having a hard time understanding why people would want to open up the map for general use. One of the more helpful things you can do in WvW is pan your camera regularly to feel out the map lag so that you know it's time to bounce soon or get stealth rushed or you'll need to defend whatever that moving force is going for. That new map density could make GvG movement dicey and hurt that element, but then it wouldn't really add much more to the WvW dynamic either unless I missed a really great idea.

 

EoTM has a lot of elements that forum people say a good WvW map needs. It has different keeps that need to be attacked in different ways. All three keeps can't be attacked and breached from one spot requiring two different assaults, unlike ABL where you can breach both walls from the same set of catas vastly reducing time for defenders to arrive. The towers all hold access to quicker transit thru the map and therefore act as choke points, but there are still longer ways around if the towers can not be taken back. There are both open fields to get around and choke points where a few can hold many. There is strategy in your positioning where to fight due to the risks of being CC off an edge that adds more thought into where you choose to fight. There are opportunities for zergs, havocs and roamers to all impact the flow and fight around the map. There are also unique mechanics that allow for monster play that may aid an attack or defense. There is open field gathering spots that can trigger ambushes for either side, allow for additional resource collection as you go and for off moment fights where people stop when they really shouldn't. Without gliding there are risky jump spots to move around the map and move level to level that add benefit for people that take time to learn the map and can change the flow of fight be that to get away from a larger force, allow ambushes when not expected or to allow roamers and havocs to try and snipe at zergs as they move along. 'Death from above' attacks were really a thing back in the day when CC and knockback had larger radius since jump assaults down to people could be quite effective. Larger maps also meant that attackers had more risk/reward in getting their fallen up since you really could slow down an assault by thinning them out since it would take some time to get to a fight if a player was knocked out of it. Add in collapsible bridges that meant you could literally drop the terrain on an assaulter and there was even more strategy in how people choose to hold ground. Shrines within the keeps could also be taken for special benefits or bypassed to try for quicker takes meant that drivers and players needed to consider their actions and goals adding more flavor into an assault outside of just hulk smash that you see in ABL. Overall there was a lot of thought in EoTM that gets down played because with the mixing of all the servers people also found they could cross server and just try and game the map. By moving it to regular WvW and scoring you remove that because there would be no additional k-training in it then you would see occurring now in the regular maps. The reason it happened more in the overflow was because a guild could be cross server and be on all three sides at the same time to do that coordination. Alliances will aid in preventing that kind of thing from happening again hopefully and even while that was occurring in the past there were still a lot people fighting in EoTM that worked at countering the organization of people trying to avoid fighting and brought their side against. Bringing the map into a scoring mode will just reinforce the idea of take and hold and not just k-train.  

Now I could probably bring up the various other counter points outside of the collusion ones that got the map a bad name but I will leave that to others to state their issues with it but for a long time now could see it as an additional map bring us up to 5 or a replacement to one of the ABL (yes to those that have pointed out that that wouldn't work since it would imbalance the scoring dynamic across the home borderlands but there are ways around that). But hope that helps for those that might not have spent much time there why some of us bring this one up to the table from time to time.

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48 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

EoTM has a lot of elements that forum people say a good WvW map needs. It has different keeps that need to be attacked in different ways. All three keeps can't be attacked and breached from one spot requiring two different assaults, unlike ABL where you can breach both walls from the same set of catas vastly reducing time for defenders to arrive. The towers all hold access to quicker transit thru the map and therefore act as choke points, but there are still longer ways around if the towers can not be taken back. There are both open fields to get around and choke points where a few can hold many. There is strategy in your positioning where to fight due to the risks of being CC off an edge that adds more thought into where you choose to fight. There are opportunities for zergs, havocs and roamers to all impact the flow and fight around the map. There are also unique mechanics that allow for monster play that may aid an attack or defense. There is open field gathering spots that can trigger ambushes for either side, allow for additional resource collection as you go and for off moment fights where people stop when they really shouldn't. Without gliding there are risky jump spots to move around the map and move level to level that add benefit for people that take time to learn the map and can change the flow of fight be that to get away from a larger force, allow ambushes when not expected or to allow roamers and havocs to try and snipe at zergs as they move along. 'Death from above' attacks were really a thing back in the day when CC and knockback had larger radius since jump assaults down to people could be quite effective. Larger maps also meant that attackers had more risk/reward in getting their fallen up since you really could slow down an assault by thinning them out since it would take some time to get to a fight if a player was knocked out of it. Add in collapsible bridges that meant you could literally drop the terrain on an assaulter and there was even more strategy in how people choose to hold ground. Shrines within the keeps could also be taken for special benefits or bypassed to try for quicker takes meant that drivers and players needed to consider their actions and goals adding more flavor into an assault outside of just hulk smash that you see in ABL. Overall there was a lot of thought in EoTM that gets down played because with the mixing of all the servers people also found they could cross server and just try and game the map. By moving it to regular WvW and scoring you remove that because there would be no additional k-training in it then you would see occurring now in the regular maps. The reason it happened more in the overflow was because a guild could be cross server and be on all three sides at the same time to do that coordination. Alliances will aid in preventing that kind of thing from happening again hopefully and even while that was occurring in the past there were still a lot people fighting in EoTM that worked at countering the organization of people trying to avoid fighting and brought their side against. Bringing the map into a scoring mode will just reinforce the idea of take and hold and not just k-train.  

Now I could probably bring up the various other counter points outside of the collusion ones that got the map a bad name but I will leave that to others to state their issues with it but for a long time now could see it as an additional map bring us up to 5 or a replacement to one of the ABL (yes to those that have pointed out that that wouldn't work since it would imbalance the scoring dynamic across the home borderlands but there are ways around that). But hope that helps for those that might not have spent much time there why some of us bring this one up to the table from time to time.

That's all fine and sounds good typing it, but it still sucked to fight there in reality and most of your time there was running or catching up because it was mostly a repeated path at a ppt pace and that was largely due to the awkward lanes of entry you mentioned. A lot of the positive points you brought up are already doable on the official maps that people avoid or don't bother with.

Maybe you're right and people would still hit up that map without the promise of fast moving ppt trains in favor of longer routes and pve features and not become another Desert.

The collapsible bridges and open nodes stand out though and the other maps could use features like that. 

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I actually had a similar thought to this a while back that I brought up to my guild as a fun "wouldn't this be cool?" topic of discussion.

Make it an entire WvW event centered around EotM. At the end of the event, EotM crashes down on one of the Alpine Bordlerlands, essentially creating a new map and at the same time replacing one instance of a doubled-up map, while also giving an excuse to remove the too-easily-exploitable push-off-all-the-bridges opportunities in EotM that I think would probably end up not being fun. (CC bombs aren't fun, guys)

I think most people use EotM for the arena anyway, that can stay floating around to keep being used that way.

Edited by Overedge.2435
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Unless map caps are increased (and perhaps even if they are), we really need an additional map, not an alternate map.  With the influx of new players from Steam (also, and prior to that, folks that returned due to the expac/pending World Restructuring/etc.) the queues keep players from participating on Reset, or even random weeknights during prime-time.  Not exactly conducive to keeping new or returning players coming back for more.  

Either a 2nd map like EBG, or a modified EotM with war score implemented and instancing removed.  Right now there is no benefit to a guild squad that can't get all their folks into maps moving their squad to EotM so they can play together - there are no fights, it's not really WvW, etc.  That pretty much leaves scrims in the arena, which while fun for a short time, isn't the same as WvW. on Reset Night.

With the state of linked servers, where it's a crap shoot as to whether the server you're linked with is cooperative when it comes to trying to coordinate spreading squads out to fit onto maps, or whether they will just go with the "screw you" mentality and overload maps because they have multiple "map-queue" squads.  Some links have to designate guilds to sit out Reset night, or play with a late start... this shouldn't even have to be a thing, if ANet put any real thought and effort into how to keep folks coming back for more when it comes to WvW.   The guilds I've played with over the last 9 years have always been out there on Reset Night, and it's a BFD.  Dampening that because of 1-2 hour-long queues  making folks feel frustrated, left out, etc. because they can only get a portion of their squad into WvW.... is also not conducive to keeping players (or guilds) around.

Yes, Restructuring is coming, but who knows which year, and, c'mon... we need some love in WvW right now, and I don't mean nerfing builds.  Folks need to be able to get their guild squads out into the Mists.

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18 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

That's all fine and sounds good typing it, but it still sucked to fight there in reality and most of your time there was running or catching up because it was mostly a repeated path at a ppt pace and that was largely due to the awkward lanes of entry you mentioned. A lot of the positive points you brought up are already doable on the official maps that people avoid or don't bother with.

Maybe you're right and people would still hit up that map without the promise of fast moving ppt trains in favor of longer routes and pve features and not become another Desert.

The collapsible bridges and open nodes stand out though and the other maps could use features like that. 

 

I agree I did find that people either really liked it or really didn't. There were people middle of the road but its hard to tell since they set it just an overflow and as people popped in and out it would break up the fights at odd intervals if you were there just while waiting for a pop to the regular maps. 

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38 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

I agree I did find that people either really liked it or really didn't. There were people middle of the road but its hard to tell since they set it just an overflow and as people popped in and out it would break up the fights at

odd intervals if you were there just while waiting for a pop to the regular maps. 

Most people like Desert, but are pretty practical about why they don't go there unless it's on fire. As much as it's layout is kind of dumb for persistent team fights, EOTM would lend itself better to destructible and interactive mechanics, but then they'd need to make sure those mechanics slow people down and hang out in a spot for awhile for a push and pull fight. The open nodes might be a daily draw, but then those need to also give ascended and other quality mats, and possibly need to become a point like sentries. 

The actual keep or structure takes always felt more like mundane clean up with poor response but features like that could create a subculture of pug life that can last awhile.  At that point of fine tuning though, they could just give us rotating popular core maps and let us fill up on some core map stuff while we hunt and avoid each other. 

Edited by kash.9213
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Adding a new instance to further thin out the player-base is a non-starter, I think.

Replacing a map with EOTM for change's sake would be amusing.  Actually, for the lower tiers that never fill up, it would be interesting to have one EBG and one EOTM map (nobody has their own map) to see what happens.

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2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

 

At that point of fine tuning though, they could just give us rotating popular core maps and let us fill up on some core map stuff while we hunt and avoid each other. 

 

Coming from Warhammer the lack of maps is what drove most of the Warhammer players I know away over time since we had been used to such a variety even if they had the same general feel. Would have loved to see rotating maps here especially by now. In an ideal world we would have maps rotating in out weekly and o your point they could be collecting analytics on which ones drew more by server and and determine which mechanics seem to draw what people. But... it is what is, we at least can hope for some new map(s) at some point. 

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