How much timer is usually left on DE completion?

[Silent.6137]

44 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Really? Because most of my effort when organizing a raid is getting the different boon roles. Dps tend to be a dime a dozen. I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, but i don't feel like it's much easier. In fact it's more annoying because you have to organize 10 different sub groups as opposed to just 2. 

You really seem to miss the gist of what I said and kept coming up with irrelevancies after irrelevancies.

"Calling it full raid comps is totally misleading." The only 2 boons DR Meta comms ask for are Alac and Quick. NOTHING ELSE. If the subs get those great, if not, we do without.

I quoted both you and Shikaru since both of you used that phrase but I was more or less direcxting it towards Shikaru. It really doesn't matter what your raid group is comprised of. Or how easy or hard it is to organize. Or whatever other arguments you care to come up with. DE meta subgroups are simply not equivalent to Raid comps just because they might or might not have both an Alac and a Quick. If you'd to organize a raid team, would you be satisfied to try and just get an Alac ad a Quick in each subs, and not ask for anything else? And if you don't get either, it's still fine?  If it is, then and only then, would calling DE meta subs raid comps  not be misleading.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Firebeard.1746]

37 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Calling it full raid comps is totally misleading." The only 2 boons DR Meta comms ask for are Alac and Quick. NOTHING ELSE. If the subs get those great, if not, we do without.

 Might and fury are involved in my experience. My only successful run had uptime on those. My comm in my only successful run asked us to stab during a burn phase. So it looks like we disagree based on experience. The rest of your post is based on this assumption that in my view is absolutely false.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Silent.6137]

Just to explain how subs are organized at DE Meta.

Comm will request 10 Alac to go to sub 2 and 10 Quick to go to sub 3. If filled, fantastic but if not, meta will still happen. When organizing subs, Comm will start putting an Alac and a Quick in each of the 10 subgroups if possible. The rest are just randomly put into any of the subs until each has 5 players. Sub organizations completed.

After that, it's just a matter of assigning lanes and for the splits, which are just copy/paste. And hope majority will pay attention to those and any call-outs later (also copy/paste). And also hope there will be very few afkers and/or leechers. KIll Soo-Won and get the loots. Mission accomplished.

[Silent.6137]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

This is a lie. Might and fury are involved. My only successful run had uptime on those. My comm in my only successful run asked us to stab. So it looks like we disagree based on experience.

Seriously? A lie? Of course, other boons are going to happen. They are not in isolation. Any time anyone uses any of that, you're going to get residuals. It is part of the whole system. Some comm will ask for stability but they're not important to the encounter. Most comms won't even bother since many of the PUGs don't even know what it is.

I really don't understand why you keep insisting the subs are organized in raid comp fashion when they're not.

[Firebeard.1746]

 

41 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Of course, other boons are going to happen. They are not in isolation

I'm struggling to understand your original point if you're admitting this in the context of my comment on raid boons equalling a raid comp. Most of the time having both a standard build that emits quickness and alacrity in a sub guarantees the rest of them. 

 

I guess we've both arrived at the same point now and agree on what i was originally meaning by "raid comp" to begin with?

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm struggling to understand your original point if you're admitting this in the context of my comment on raid boons equalling a roid comp. Most of the time having both a standard build that emits quickness and alacrity in a sub guarantees the rest of them. 

 

I guess we've both arrived at the same point now and agree on what i was originally meaning by "raid comp" to begin with?

If you have a wrong understanding of what a "raid comp" is then sure, you could say that.

Maybe it really is due to you having one succesful meta attempt, but generally DE meta squads are organized how Silent described it above -in squad msg, commie asks for quickness providers to go to group x, alac providers to group y and then he just distributes them however many there are, after which the meta happens either way. It's really not a lot of effort not is it somehow the equivalent of organizing a "raid squad comp".

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Silent.6137]

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

I'm struggling to understand your original point if you're admitting this in the context of my comment on raid boons equalling a raid comp. Most of the time having both a standard build that emits quickness and alacrity in a sub guarantees the rest of them. 

 

I guess we've both arrived at the same point now and agree on what i was originally meaning by "raid comp" to begin with?

I don't think you grasped what I was getting at when I stated that Calling it full raid comps is totally misleading.

First let's define what Full Raid Compositions is. A team, party, squad or whatever else that has FRC is able to provide the required boons on call. That is, the group or subgroups will be self-sustained. Able to provide Heal, Alac, Quick, Might, etc., if called upon. If there are 2 subgroups, you'll get residual boons at times from the other subgroup but they 're not part of your subgroup's. However, that will not negate your subgroup from being a FRC sub since your member can provide them even if it's not 100%.

A squad with 10 subgroups, each subgroup should be self-sustained. If say, FRC only consists of providing Alac, Quick and Might. But 1/2 the squad are not getting any Might from members of their own subgroups, or some are only getting them intermittently from other subgroups, then it is no longer a FRC squad.

Getting boons from external sources doesn't make the group a FRC.

An example: I go to a World Boss event without joining any groups. My build does not allow me to give myself any boons. But I'm getting the full spectrum of residual boons from those around me. But is my group of one a FRC? No, because I can't provide myself with any of those.

In a big meta squad, there are many subgroups which fails to deliver all the shared boons that a FRC will have because of builds.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Just to explain how subs are organized at DE Meta.

Comm will request 10 Alac to go to sub 2 and 10 Quick to go to sub 3. If filled, fantastic but if not, meta will still happen. When organizing subs, Comm will start putting an Alac and a Quick in each of the 10 subgroups if possible. The rest are just randomly put into any of the subs until each has 5 players. Sub organizations completed.

After that, it's just a matter of assigning lanes and for the splits, which are just copy/paste. And hope majority will pay attention to those and any call-outs later (also copy/paste). And also hope there will be very few afkers and/or leechers. KIll Soo-Won and get the loots. Mission accomplished.

That's practically what is nowadays being done with half of the raid encounters. You make sure of Alac and Quick, because those matter. You don't bother with might and fury, because in the nowadays meta those are practically a given. Then you feel all remaining slots with dps. Sub organization complete. The only difference is the heals, because DE doesn't need those.

Only in case a raid encounter needs a specific dedicated role (like kiter) a bit more organization is needed.

[Linken.6345]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's practically what is nowadays being done with half of the raid encounters. You make sure of Alac and Quick, because those matter. You don't bother with might and fury, because in the nowadays meta those are practically a given. Then you feel all remaining slots with dps. Sub organization complete. The only difference is the heals, because DE doesn't need those.

Only in case a raid encounter needs a specific dedicated role (like kiter) a bit more organization is needed.

I will go tell my raids tank that he is not needed anymore and see how many bosses we clear.

[Ultramex.1506]

sometime 6-4  all the way to 1 mins left but that seem to happen only 1 to me after the nerf

Wow, intense argument about calling this raid comp, I'm just gonna say when squad need quick i just pop in Necro with exotic dire gears and appropriate traits, hardly qualify for an actual raid, let not forget this is a 50 man squads (with some randoms not joining) so its less demanding

Anet even make some classes give those boons out like candy

Edited September 29, 2022 by Ultramex.1506

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's practically what is nowadays being done with half of the raid encounters. You make sure of Alac and Quick, because those matter. You don't bother with might and fury, because in the nowadays meta those are practically a given. Then you feel all remaining slots with dps. Sub organization complete. The only difference is the heals, because DE doesn't need those.

Only in case a raid encounter needs a specific dedicated role (like kiter) a bit more organization is needed.

Heals, tanks, encounter specific roles are the only difference, so totally when someone says "full raid composition" they mean "maybe some of the composition", but it doesn't matter because apparently in some people's minds using boons is -for some reason- restricted to raids.

See, we only need to exclude this, that and sometimes yet another thing. Other than all those things, it's EXACTLY the same.

...or, in other words: it's clearly not the same.

[Firebeard.1746]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's practically what is nowadays being done with half of the raid encounters. You make sure of Alac and Quick, because those matter. You don't bother with might and fury, because in the nowadays meta those are practically a given. Then you feel all remaining slots with dps. Sub organization complete. The only difference is the heals, because DE doesn't need those.

Only in case a raid encounter needs a specific dedicated role (like kiter) a bit more organization is needed.

This exactly. There's literally no button for might and fury roles in my raid disc, but are for the other boons. This entire conversation is pointless and they're doing it just they can yell at me pretending to be smart.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Heals, tanks, encounter specific roles are the only difference, so totally when someone says "full raid composition" they mean "maybe some of the composition", but it doesn't matter because apparently in some people's minds using boons is -for some reason- restricted to raids.

See, we only need to exclude this, that and sometimes yet another thing. Other than all those things, it's EXACTLY the same.

...or, in other words: it's clearly not the same.

?? My de comm took some healers. Tanks aren't required on every raid encounter, so they're totally the same. Tank is not a universal raid role so you can't argue FRC always includes tank.

No other raid roles than boons are consistent across encounters, they change so you can't argue they're frc. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

?? My de comm took some healers. Tanks aren't required on every raid encounter, so they're totally the same. Tank is not a universal raid role so you can't argue FRC always includes tank.

No other raid roles than boons are consistent across encounters, they change so you can't argue they're frc. 

Cool, your comm could take whatever they wanted to, the general DE squad ""building"" is what was repeatedly described above. People join a squad, then commie usually asks "quick builds" to move to group x, "ala builds" move to group y and before the event he's moving people to subgroups in order to spread distribution of these two buffs. And that's it.

At times there's also no "squad building" at all too, though.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Doggie.3184]

23 hours ago, Debesyla.7102 said:

Over the past ~10 runs I had this month the median was ~8min left. Yes, it is pretty easy nowaday, even with a random PUG.

I did one a few days ago for first time in ages and it had a lot of time left over, maybe 5 minutes~ I figured 'maybe I should farm this daily then?'

But I did two yesterday, one failed at 2% cuz she kept going immune rapidly for 3-4minutes and the other failed so fantastically it wasn't even close to possible. Both full, fully organized instances. Not sure why. Hurt my motivation though as that was 3 hours~ wasted where I coulda been fishing up fat stacks elsewhere.

[Silent.6137]

48 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

?? My de comm took some healers. Tanks aren't required on every raid encounter, so they're totally the same. Tank is not a universal raid role so you can't argue FRC always includes tank.

No other raid roles than boons are consistent across encounters, they change so you can't argue they're frc. 

Of course.  encounters are specific and thus roles will be different depending on them.

If you'd to run a Raid team for a specific wing, and you needed 2 Heals and 2 Alac but only get 1 of each, do you still run them and fill the team with whatever? If not, why not? And since you don't have a full complement, would you still say your team has FRC? If answer is Yes to both, then you're looking at a DE Meta FRC since that's basically what it is.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

If you'd to run a Raid team for a specific wing, and you needed 2 Heals and 2 Alac but only get 1 of each, do you still run them and fill the team with whatever? If not, why not? And since you don't have a full complement, would you still say your team has FRC? If answer is Yes to both, then you're looking at a DE Meta FRC since that's basically what it is.

Except i've been in groups that only got 1 of each in de meta and it hasn't gone well, so i'm kind of like, yes, frc is best and most likely to succeed, so your whole line of thinking here is broken from my pov, you're trying to lead me through a trap that in my experience isn't real: half the boons doesn't go well in de.  And you're punished severely for low dps in how the mechanics play out. I didn't see tail.  Not even Once in my frc comp run.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Except i've been in groups that only got 1 of each in de meta and it hasn't gone well, so i'm kind of like, yes, frc is best and most likely to succeed, so your whole line of thinking here is broken from my pov, you're trying to lead me through a trap that in my experience isn't real: half the boons doesn't go well in de.  And you're punished severely for low dps in how the mechanics play out. I didn't see tail.  Not even Once in my frc comp run.

Meanwhile I've been in a random map that had a commie of a ~10 plater squad just completing events for the decade achievement, after which we randomly started meta with other people joining in, nobody divided anybody into any subgroup and we easly succeeded.

And, tbh, I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. More structured squads with dps increasing boons will deal more dmg and will be more likely to succeed? Duh! Still doesn't make it a full raid comp nor anywhere near needed.

[ArchonWing.9480]

When I did Dragon's End, I brought 3 friends along.  We finished it with no issues. (Forgot, like 2-3 min left? Didn't really care or notice.) We did have some hot shot guild trying to tell us to get off the map but at least a dozen of us on map refused to leave so not sure if the map was actually comped. (Probably was partially). There eventually were tags  but we stuck to our mini-party. (don't need comp in squad if you have your own comp)

Our dps wasn't very good. Like the highest was 12-15k  when actually fighting . Some didn't really know what they were doing and didn't break 3k  I actually used a teleport to friend in the middle because I fell down and got lost. So the real number was significantly lower; like 8k.

We didn't have a specific comp but the builds did give boons and stuff so that probably helped.  It's no doubt easier if you bring friends that have builds that can support.

I had a support mechanist, but the build was heavily scuffed since I don't do pve with that and it was an impromptu thing.

Honestly staying alive and not getting smashed by things like the slam seem way more important assuming you don't have some really bad build and probably bring a build with buffs will help overall. Even a potato will do a bit with 25 stacks of might and fury.

tl;dr having friends is the most OP buff. You do not need a full map comp, but some comp helps.

Edited September 29, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Except i've been in groups that only got 1 of each in de meta and it hasn't gone well, so i'm kind of like, yes, frc is best and most likely to succeed, so your whole line of thinking here is broken from my pov, you're trying to lead me through a trap that in my experience isn't real: half the boons doesn't go well in de.  And you're punished severely for low dps in how the mechanics play out. I didn't see tail.  Not even Once in my frc comp run.

You truly don't understand what I'm trying to say, do you?

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

You truly don't understand what I'm trying to say, do you?

You clearly don't understand what i'm saying either. You can't include every role as part of frc if it's not consistent. If HK and tank are part of FRC then feel free to being them on your next CA run. If you're splitting hairs on roles, de has roles too, like greens. The only consistent part of raid comp is boons and heals (and i've seen heals on DE too). I've said and clarified it before and if you don't believe me, by all means justify bringing and HK to every encounter to your squad because you got in a tiff with some guy on the forums.

 

Your comments on randomly filling without boon roles when you only have half of what you wanted threw me of, you're not clearly communicating your point. It sounded like you were implying you could get away with only half the boons on DE. To me, it felt like you were setting up a contrast between how picky you could be in DE vs other content. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

Remove

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Meanwhile I've been in a random map that had a commie of a ~10 plater squad just completing events for the decade achievement, after which we randomly started meta with other people joining in, nobody divided anybody into any subgroup and we easly succeeded.

And, tbh, I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. More structured squads with dps increasing boons will deal more dmg and will be more likely to succeed? Duh! Still doesn't make it a full raid comp nor anywhere near needed.

How do you know people weren't switching into boon roles just to optimize your damage without the comms help?

 

Given i've already clarified that boons and heals is the only consistent raid comp, i'd say your last point is agreeing with me as i've seen healers in DE as well. If you disagree i'm fine with that, just be sure to bring an HK to every encounter you do.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

How do you know people weren't switching into boon roles just to optimize your damage without the comms help. 

Because it was just a blob of people without subgroups and nobody swaps builds mid-fight figuring out how many boon-providers there is in a one clamped up subgroup, while at the same time if they were doing it, it would be rather apparent in the squad window?

What even is this weird idea you've just came up with?

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm glad we can agree on the last point, which is kind of what my op is based around.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but what point is that? Players playing stronger builds while using game's mechanics (including boon delivery) improve success rate of events? Was that ever something anyone needed proven?

Still not full raid comp or w/e.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

Lol

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Because it was just a blob of people without subgroups and nobody swaps builds mid-fight figuring out how many boon-providers there is in a one clamped up subgroup, while at the same time it would be rather apparent in the squad window?

What even is this weird idea you've just came up with?

Lol okay. Pretty sure you can fall ooc if you die and swap things. And boons spill around you even if the squad isn't organized based on priorities but i'll let you have this one because i trust you. 

 

Quote

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but what point is that? Players playing stronger builds while using game's mechanics (including boon delivery) improve success rate of events? Was that ever something anyone needed proven?

What you might be missing is it's the only consistent part of a raid comp, aside from healing. Glad we agree. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Firebeard.1746