Full Counter Suggestion

[thaniretouni.4762]

I am not sure where to start but I'll try to keep it simple. Keep note that whatever I am saying I have WvW in mind mostly.

When Spellbreaker came out I was fascinated by everything it offered. Dagger main and offhand for warrior (I liked the animations, colour used for the skills and the abilities themselves) was amazin for me. Full counter of course was the key skill that made me fall in love with the spec. Initially, the skill damage was indeed overtuned but now has become super weak especially considering the amount of evades, shadowsteps, blocks and reduced dmg all classes have access to. Before I provide my suggestion to make it better I want to point out one thing that always matters for many people I  believe. It is about the concept and inspiration a spec serves.

I don't know if that is the case, but I am pretty sure that someone in Anet has watched Nanatsu No Taizai (7 Deadly sins) and some of the Spellbreaker ideas come from their leader Meliodas.

His legendary weapon was a mini sword/dagger (guess what spellbreaker got). His ultimate abilities were Full counter and Revenge counter (exactly the same as the skill and grandmaster trait for spellbreaker).

 

So, instead of suggesting something that buffs the Full counter itself which could be abused by all spellbreakers regardless of the grandmaster trait I will suggest to buff/change the grandmaster trait Revenge counter. This trait has become meaningless since full counter does very little dmg in WvW even in full dmg builds. Since the other two already serve a purpose I think revenge counter needs to change a bit and give it more character like other grandmaster traitlines do for other specs (such as daredevil and their leaps). So, spellbreaker's enchantment collapse is all about removing boons from groups of enemies. The tether is strong for denying enemies escape (very good in duels and small gvg). Following this fashion, revenge counter needs to get stronger.

 

My suggestion:

Condition copying is good so we can keep that. The resistance can be removed (making warrior run different options for condis). Now, instead of buffing the dmg by 20% which is boring and basically useless now that the skill does no dmg the trait should change how full counter works making it way different. So, instead of procing the attack with 1 attack now full counter makes the warrior absorb all physical attacks for 1 sec and then releasing the dmg the skill normally does (which is super low) plus an additional 15% of all dmg received during that 1s period. The full counter, channeling can break only if the warrior swaps weapon during the animation and the skills does the 15% dmg absorbed during that lesser time. 

 

I believe my suggestion not only makes the skill and trait more unique, it also gives the potential for spellbreaker to do some decent dmg in zergs. If the 15% is too much for big fights u can make it hit 3 targets or adjust the number a little. Ofc, not too much as in duels the dmg will be 0 again because with my suggestion if the enemy does only 6k dmg to u in this 1s then u deal about 900 extra dmg but scales off very nicely with 15% for medium-size fights and is still not broken or anything like it was when spellbreaker was first released.

 

Cannot wait for your responses guys. Thanks for reading. 

 

Also, Anet please don't nerf axe 5. Warrior will be left with not dmg in WvW. Daggers were nerfed, hammer and mace too. I know now they get some dmg but still some skills will deal 30 still 😛

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Sounds like a great way to instagib 5 people in an enemy zerg...

[oscuro.9720]

The issue is that it doesn’t particularly matter how many times you stack 15% on top of a skill that does 30 damage, you will never realistically do any damage that way. If you adjust the damage to be relevant using revenge, than those 15% will add up to the problem Lan pointed out. There’s some ways to fix these problems;

 

• Have revenge counter change Full Counter’s coefficient by making it a wholly new skill (see; necro scepter 3). This would allow it to take on the functionality you mention, and also have a relevant damage value.

 

• Cap the damage increases at 5 stacks. This will prevent infinite scaling. It is also unlikely to accumulate 5 stacks over the time period unless you are fighting multiple people. 
 

• Probably lower the multiplier to 10% per stack in wvw. That would give it a cap of 50% in multipliers, which is plenty if you are changing the coefficient. 
 

• Don’t remove the resistance. Rather, apply it in an area with a base of 2s, and 1s per strike absorbed (cap 5 strikes). 
 

• Remove the daze, remove the evade frames. You are getting a channeled damage nullifier, everything else would be over stacking it imo.
 

This presents a few advantages that buffing revenge counter does not allow for;

 

1) It creates a low-skill floor, lower skill ceiling alternative to spell to help less experienced players. Ideally the damage on this skill (in competitive modes) shouldn’t be chunking people, since it isn’t particularly dynamic, especially in relation to current FC. 
 

2) In zergs it gives a reliable alternative to the unreliable nature of current FC, as well as group resistance uptime. 
 

3) In PvE, spell now has access to a non-reactionary, higher damage version of FC. Ik the PvE folk complain about FC requiring an enemy to trigger since they don’t like timing things (I jest), this would fix that problem without ruining how fluid and dynamic FC is in competitive modes. Additionally, charge count and %s can be altered to give more reliable increases, since getting hit in instanced pve can sometimes be rare. E.g. 3 strike cap at 33% bonus damage per strike. 
 

I think those alterations would make revenge counter a more viable skill. You would probably want it’s base damage somewhere around 1k if you have 2k power, to avoid over-damaging. Especially since it’s a non-reactive skill, meaning activation is significantly easier. I mentioned something like this before. The hard part for me is putting damage on a much easier-to-use skill, then leaving FC with no damage. It just feels wrong, but, especially for the PvE folks something of this nature is probably needed. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[thaniretouni.4762]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Sounds like a great way to instagib 5 people in an enemy zerg...

Even if you absorb 50k dmg in that 1 sec, which is highly unlikely we are talking 1k from base dmg + 7.5k dmg. that's total 8-8.5k. It is far from insta kill. Revenants hit harder with one skill of their hammer from afar.

Edited September 28, 2022 by thaniretouni.4762

[thaniretouni.4762]

39 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

The issue is that it doesn’t particularly matter how many times you stack 15% on top of a skill that does 30 damage, you will never realistically do any damage that way. If you adjust the damage to be relevant using revenge, than those 15% will add up to the problem Lan pointed out. There’s some ways to fix these problems;

 

• Have revenge counter change Full Counter’s coefficient by making it a wholly new skill (see; necro scepter 3). This would allow it to take on the functionality you mention, and also have a relevant damage value.

 

• Cap the damage increases at 5 stacks. This will prevent infinite scaling. It is also unlikely to accumulate 5 stacks over the time period unless you are fighting multiple people. 
 

• Probably lower the multiplier to 10% per stack in wvw. That would give it a cap of 50% in multipliers, which is plenty if you are changing the coefficient. 
 

• Don’t remove the resistance. Rather, apply it in an area with a base of 2s, and 1s per strike absorbed (cap 5 strikes). 
 

• Remove the daze, remove the evade frames. You are getting a channeled damage nullifier, everything else would be over stacking it imo.
 

This presents a few advantages that buffing revenge counter does not allow for;

 

1) It creates a low-skill floor, lower skill ceiling alternative to spell to help less experienced players. Ideally the damage on this skill (in competitive modes) shouldn’t be chunking people, since it isn’t particularly dynamic, especially in relation to current FC. 
 

2) In zergs it gives a reliable alternative to the unreliable nature of current FC, as well as group resistance uptime. 
 

3) In PvE, spell now has access to a non-reactionary, higher damage version of FC. Ik the PvE folk complain about FC requiring an enemy to trigger since they don’t like timing things (I jest), this would fix that problem without ruining how fluid and dynamic FC is in competitive modes. Additionally, charge count and %s can be altered to give more reliable increases, since getting hit in instanced pve can sometimes be rare. E.g. 3 strike cap at 33% bonus damage per strike. 
 

I think those alterations would make revenge counter a more viable skill. You would probably want it’s base damage somewhere around 1k if you have 2k power, to avoid over-damaging. Especially since it’s a non-reactive skill, meaning activation is significantly easier. I mentioned something like this before. The hard part for me is putting damage on a much easier-to-use skill, then leaving FC with no damage. It just feels wrong, but, especially for the PvE folks something of this nature is probably needed. 

The 15% of the dmg u absorbed from every attack. if u absorb 30k dmg that is 4.5k dmg + 1k from base = 5.5k. I never said anything about stacking % dmg of base

Edited September 28, 2022 by thaniretouni.4762

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

16 minutes ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

Even if you absorb 50k dmg in that 1 sec, which is highly unlikely we are talking 1k from base dmg + 7.5k dmg. that's total 8-8.5k. It is far from insta kill. Revenants hit harder with one skill of their hammer from afar.

I see you doubt my ability to agro a whole zerg.

[oscuro.9720]

5 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

The 15% of the dmg u absorbed from every attack. if u absorb 30k dmg that is 4.5k dmg + 1k from base = 5.5k. I never said anything about stacking % dmg of base

Ah I see. Other, similar concepts are implemented along the lines by which I defined it, and the wording of the OP seemed to suggest that to me as well. My apologies.
Implementation of that aside, that’s still pretty problematic, you would probably need a damage cap on it imo. 

[felix.2386]

https://nanatsu-no-taizai.fandom.com/wiki/Full_Counter

 

only if they made revenge counter a separate skill from full counter as f3, like which it is inspired from

which works like rev gs4, you take hits, the more hits you take, the stronger f3(revenge counter) is

and doesnt need to do daze, just damage.

 

spellbreaker could definitely use a f3 skill to not heavily rely on full counter, which is pretty much an very annoying skill which should not be spammed as much or this potent. give a new f3 so they can shift some of the power to f3

 

unblockable aoe 1.5 second CC spam is going to be annoying as hell.

Edited September 29, 2022 by felix.2386

[thaniretouni.4762]

7 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Ah I see. Other, similar concepts are implemented along the lines by which I defined it, and the wording of the OP seemed to suggest that to me as well. My apologies.
Implementation of that aside, that’s still pretty problematic, you would probably need a damage cap on it imo. 

yes. it could stop at 50k so u deal max 8

k dmg

[thaniretouni.4762]

6 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

https://nanatsu-no-taizai.fandom.com/wiki/Full_Counter

 

only if they made revenge counter a separate skill from full counter as f3, like which it is inspired from

which works like rev gs4, you take hits, the more hits you take, the stronger f3(revenge counter) is

and doesnt need to do daze, just damage.

 

spellbreaker could definitely use a f3 skill to not heavily rely on full counter, which is pretty much an very annoying skill which should not be spammed as much or this potent. give a new f3 so they can shift some of the power to f3

 

unblockable aoe 1.5 second CC spam is going to be annoying as hell.

yes. an f3 that does only the absorb and reflect only the 15% would be very good too. nice suggestion 

[oscuro.9720]

10 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

yes. it could stop at 50k so u deal max 8

k dmg

8k would likely be too high still, especially if it can crit. That’s running up to 20k if you are at 250% crit damage, which is possible with attackers insight. It also doesn’t factor in might. 
 

Something more around a cap output of 6k and can’t crit would give it some real heft, but would prevent problematic damage values. Or 4k with crits, which would allow up to 10k damage which is pretty insane.

[thaniretouni.4762]

2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

8k would likely be too high still, especially if it can crit. That’s running up to 20k if you are at 250% crit damage, which is possible with attackers insight. It also doesn’t factor in might. 
 

Something more around a cap output of 6k and can’t crit would give it some real heft, but would prevent problematic damage values. Or 4k with crits, which would allow up to 10k damage which is pretty insane.

No crits. Fixed dmg. Ok it can be 7k. but u get the idea. Now deals nothing. Everyone deals insane amount of dmg other than warrior and thief.

[Vancho.8750]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

8k would likely be too high still, especially if it can crit. That’s running up to 20k if you are at 250% crit damage, which is possible with attackers insight. It also doesn’t factor in might. 
 

Something more around a cap output of 6k and can’t crit would give it some real heft, but would prevent problematic damage values. Or 4k with crits, which would allow up to 10k damage which is pretty insane.

50k would be fine for PVE though you can even go higher, something like DT on BS but defensive stacking, they can paste the the scaling from DT even on it so it will have PVP cap like it.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

50k would be fine for PVE though you can even go higher, something like DT on BS but defensive stacking, they can paste the the scaling from DT even on it so it will have PVP cap like it.

I was assuming competitive modes. Apologies if that was not clear. 

 

3 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

No crits. Fixed dmg. Ok it can be 7k. but u get the idea. Now deals nothing. Everyone deals insane amount of dmg other than warrior and thief.

Ik, just working through some of the potentially problematic aspects of this. I’ve suggested something similar in the past, so I believe the idea to be sound. 
 

Im thinking for competitive, capping it at 3-4k (15% of 27,000) damage, but allowing crit would make it better balanced between condition and power application. If you are condition, you get the 5 condition transfer which can drop some heavy dps if you have damaging conditions, and 3-4k damage max, which isn’t too bad. For power builds, that 3-4k can cap at 7-9k, which is getting up there, but allows lower values to still be leveraged to be more effective on power builds. In small encounters, you may absorb 10k(?), which means 1,500. Of you don’t allow crit, it may be a bit too weak, but if you have crits, it can still chunk people somewhat. 
 

Idk what would be better, having crit or no crit, what do you think OP?

[thaniretouni.4762]

8 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I was assuming competitive modes. Apologies if that was not clear. 

 

Ik, just working through some of the potentially problematic aspects of this. I’ve suggested something similar in the past, so I believe the idea to be sound. 
 

Im thinking for competitive, capping it at 3-4k (15% of 27,000) damage, but allowing crit would make it better balanced between condition and power application. If you are condition, you get the 5 condition transfer which can drop some heavy dps if you have damaging conditions, and 3-4k damage max, which isn’t too bad. For power builds, that 3-4k can cap at 7-9k, which is getting up there, but allows lower values to still be leveraged to be more effective on power builds. In small encounters, you may absorb 10k(?), which means 1,500. Of you don’t allow crit, it may be a bit too weak, but if you have crits, it can still chunk people somewhat. 
 

Idk what would be better, having crit or no crit, what do you think OP?

u are right but i prefer to hope for little since anet will maybe make from 500 dmg  that currently is to 1 🙂

[draxynnic.3719]

I wonder if a simple approach could just be to make Revenge Counter deal the damage it used to do, maybe even a tad more, but without the daze? That would effectively remove the 'does damage and CC simultaneously' issue.

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I wonder if a simple approach could just be to make Revenge Counter deal the damage it used to do, maybe even a tad more, but without the daze? That would effectively remove the 'does damage and CC simultaneously' issue.

Yes, but that would require either changing the 20% to >3000% (not kidding), or just straight up changing the multiplier through the trait. At which point, you are pretty much implementing a new skill anyways, why not change its activation criteria to create more use cases in pve, where spell needs a non-reactive version of FC according to the pver’s. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Yes, but that would require either changing the 20% to >3000% (not kidding), or just straight up changing the multiplier through the trait. At which point, you are pretty much implementing a new skill anyways, why not change its activation criteria to create more use cases in pve, where spell needs a non-reactive version of FC according to the pver’s. 

OR, it just changes FC into something new... like how some traits change certain skills to be updated ones.

I think giving FC some damage back is a good idea. I think giving it a flip over to automatically activate it for diminished effects is also a good idea.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Yes, but that would require either changing the 20% to >3000% (not kidding), or just straight up changing the multiplier through the trait. At which point, you are pretty much implementing a new skill anyways, why not change its activation criteria to create more use cases in pve, where spell needs a non-reactive version of FC according to the pver’s. 

Sure, it'd be simpler to describe it in PvP as just resetting the multiplier rather than as a % of the current PvP multiplier. 

Going to a non-reactive version is a completely different concept.

[oscuro.9720]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Sure, it'd be simpler to describe it in PvP as just resetting the multiplier rather than as a % of the current PvP multiplier. 

Going to a non-reactive version is a completely different concept.

Yea, that’s both the concept presented in the thread, as well as something that has precedent in the game. I don’t pve much, but part of the point is a non-reactive version tied to a GM strait could create something more usable in pve, where people tend to complain that FC is reactive and can’t be reliably procc’d.

 

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

OR, it just changes FC into something new... like how some traits change certain skills to be updated ones.

I think giving FC some damage back is a good idea. I think giving it a flip over to automatically activate it for diminished effects is also a good idea.

Yes, changing it to something new is what we discussed above. Personally, I’m not a fan of a flip over skill. I like the pure reactive aspect. It keeps the steeper skill curve there and, provided it is buffed some (FC doing 27 damage is kind of dumb. It should be enough to kill a Mesmer clone), justifies a large pay off. Just personal opinion though. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I'm still holding out for Full Counter to become Full Moa: turn up to 5 enemies into birds.