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Why are Engineers so obsessed with Grenades?


Sifu.9745

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In my hands they are completely useless. Though most metabattle core and elite specs favorize Grenade Kit: condi, hybrid and Power builds for all game modes PvP, pve, open world, WvW. I have absolutely no idea what is so special on these Grenades? Can someone enlighten me, please? I don't mind having one or two ground targeting abilities, but all five of them? Bomb Kit is better dmg, Flamethrower is better, Tool Kit is better and even Rifle is better, if you prefer staying away from melee range. Grenade dmg is nothing special + hitting non stationary targets is soooo hard and frustrating sometimes(too many misses) and requires a lot of concentration and skill. They are great Underwater though, because they always hit the target, no ground targeting makes life so much easier:)

 

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54 minutes ago, EvilZombie.6801 said:

Dude the problem is you are special one in the million who cant master ground target spam 

Why would i master it, if i can do better dmg with my non ground target weapons and kits? I am just a bit lazy sometimes. Probably we both agree than Rifle is much easier to use than Grenades? And Rifle dmg is also higher, so ...

Edited by Sifu.9745
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It's because grenades, historically, were more or less the only ranged weapon the engineer had that did any damage, thus why people started flipping out when the rifle actually started to compete with them, despite the rifle gameplay being far more engaging.

Kit's have a fundamental problem in that they are always either far too good or far too weak and I don't know how they can realistically fix that problem short of just making the kits full of one use abilities which would be weird in itself.

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3 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Bomb Kit is better dmg, Flamethrower is better, Tool Kit is better and even Rifle is better,

In power builds, you slot in Bomb kit, when you need a good constant baseline damage. Since Rifle was buffed, and every other elite spec has a good baseline damage, its value got lower. Grenade on the other hand deals a good amount of burst, and good constant ranged damage, if you are not running Rifle.
Power builds do not use Flamethrower, Tool kit only has 2 good damaging abilities, if we include the toolbelt, while Grenade kit has 5.

In condi builds, its just what gives the most value mathematically. You are free to replace it with any other kit, or even with a power signet on mech, and get almost the same value. On non mech builds, you are running all 3 of the damaging kits, that goes in an utility slot.

In PvP, Bomb kit is useless, since it is incredibly easy, to avoid. Flamethrower is amazing, on condi builds, Tool kit is more of an utility, or burst combo kit. Rifle is still weak there, since most of the buffs weren't transferred there. This leaves Grenade kit as the only kit, that can (ironically) reliantly deal good damage. Also, considering the fact, that the kit barely brings any utility, it deserves, to do good damage.

In WvW, bomb or flamethrower still sees play, on damage Scrapper. In roaming, it has the same issue, as in PvP, and since Grenade wasn't nerfed in WvW at all, it can be used for oneshot shenanigans.
 

 

3 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Grenade dmg is nothing special + hitting non stationary targets is soooo hard and frustrating sometimes(too many misses) and requires a lot of concentration and skill.


In PvE, its easy to lead your throws, when you get experienced, with the AIs movement pattern. In raids, bosses often doesn't move at all, or move in a snail pace. In PvP, with the correct options, and Grenadier trait, you can just spam 1, to get good damage. Much better, than Rifle 1 spam.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

They are great Underwater though


Funilly enough, because it has a spread underwater, you are better off going into melee, and spam bomb kit 1 and 2.

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Use the following settings/keybinds in order to make Elite Mortar Kit and Grenade Kit most usable and effective:

  1. Set "Ground Targeting" on "Instant"
  2.  Disable "Autotargeting"
  3.  Enable "Lock Ground Target at maximum Skill Range"
  4. Enable "Snap Ground target to Current Target" (this will make mortar shells fly to your enemy without you having to aim manually with the cursor (just select the target))
  5. Enable "Allow Skill Retargeting" (This will make the landing spot of ground targeted skills be determined after the initial skill animation instead of before the animation, which means that the mortar shell/grenade will land closer to a moving target) (Be wary of the delay (animation time) when you do not have a target selected and you use a ground targeted skill that you want to use on yourself, make sure your cursor is at the location where you want the skill to land. Moving the cursor away too soon will make the skill land somewhere you didn't intend. )
  6. Keybind "Lock Autotarget" (when you press this key you detarget whatever you have selected, which is important when you for example want to throw {{Skill|Toss Elixir S}} at your feet).
  7.  Jumping right after you used a skill will make the grenades/mortar shells fly higher.
  8. Use combo finishers in the combo fields of Mortar Kit. (Wiki: combos) I personally really like leaps in the ice field (5 sec Frost Aura).

 

PS: Always use the Grenadier trait when using the Grenade kit, because it makes the explosion radius bigger and increases the throw velocity (untraited too many of your grenades will miss a moving target because of the combination of the standard 120 range explosion radius and the slow throw velocity)

Edited by santenal.1054
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4 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

In my hands they are completely useless. Though most metabattle core and elite specs favorize Grenade Kit: condi, hybrid and Power builds for all game modes PvP, pve, open world, WvW. I have absolutely no idea what is so special on these Grenades? Can someone enlighten me, please? I don't mind having one or two ground targeting abilities, but all five of them? Bomb Kit is better dmg, Flamethrower is better, Tool Kit is better and even Rifle is better, if you prefer staying away from melee range. Grenade dmg is nothing special + hitting non stationary targets is soooo hard and frustrating sometimes(too many misses) and requires a lot of concentration and skill. They are great Underwater though, because they always hit the target, no ground targeting makes life so much easier:)

 

Because they do dps. Thats why things are taken in pve builds.

Flamethrower sucks, hard. 

Shrapnel grenade just does a lot of damage. Grenade barrage is insane damager per casttime. Huge burst. Even without toolbelt the shrapnel alone is almost a 3k dps gain over mine for rifle mechanist. 

You are not supposed to camp them. You use shrapnel and sometimes 4 + 5 and immediately swap out. And if playing anything but mechanist you can also burst with the toolbelt. Bombs are useless except for the aa. 2 and 3 are ok for condi builds but not that strong.

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2 hours ago, santenal.1054 said:
On 5/16/2021 at 10:35 PM, santenal.1054 said:

Use the following settings/keybinds in order to make Elite Mortar Kit and Grenade Kit most usable and effective:

1 )Set "Ground Targeting" on "Instant"

2 ) Disable "Autotargeting"
3 ) Enable "Lock Ground Target at maximum Skill Range"
4 ) Enable "Snap Ground target to Current Target" (this will make mortar shells fly to your enemy without you having to aim manually with the cursor (just select the target))
5 ) Enable "Allow Skill Retargeting" (This will make the landing spot of ground targeted skills be determined after the initial skill animation instead of before the animation, which means that the mortar shell/grenade will land closer to a moving target) (Be wary of the delay (animation time) when you do not have a target selected and you use a ground targeted skill that you want to use on yourself, make sure your cursor is at the location where you want the skill to land. Moving the cursor away too soon will make the skill land somewhere you didn't intend. )
6 ) Keybind "Lock Autotarget" (when you press this key you detarget whatever you have selected, which is important when you for example want to throw {{Skill|Toss Elixir S}} at your feet).

7 ) Jumping right after you used a skill will make the grenades/mortar shells fly higher.

8 ) Use combo finishers in the combo fields of Mortar Kit. (Wiki: combos) I personally really like leaps in the ice field (5 sec Frost Aura).

 

PS: Always use the Grenadier trait when using the Grenade kit, because it makes the explosion radius bigger and increases the throw velocity (untraited too many of your grenades will miss a moving target because of the combination of the standard 120 range explosion radius and the slow throw velocity)

 

And then remember to undo many of these when you switch to a build that doesn't rely on ground target spam!

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I'm personally a fan of mortar on quickness.... of course they just took quickness from me in PVP which basically nerfs that and every other kit.

 

Nades has some interesting synergies with the explosives line (explosive temper).  Also does splash so when your opponents are grouped up it does well.  I assume auto on names will out do   You pretty much absolutely need the grenadier explosives trait to leverage them.  So if you're not using that, then there's the problem.    

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8 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

In my hands they are completely useless. Though most metabattle core and elite specs favorize Grenade Kit: condi, hybrid and Power builds for all game modes PvP, pve, open world, WvW. I have absolutely no idea what is so special on these Grenades? Can someone enlighten me, please? I don't mind having one or two ground targeting abilities, but all five of them? Bomb Kit is better dmg, Flamethrower is better, Tool Kit is better and even Rifle is better, if you prefer staying away from melee range. Grenade dmg is nothing special + hitting non stationary targets is soooo hard and frustrating sometimes(too many misses) and requires a lot of concentration and skill. They are great Underwater though, because they always hit the target, no ground targeting makes life so much easier:)

 

You are not alone. I am useless with them too. Also, last time I checked the rate of fire was not even close to what the description says.

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I hate grenade kit.  It'd be one thing if the autoattack actually worked, but having to ground target every single throw is just an absolute PITA that I'd rather do without.

Now if they'd make grenade 1 an actual targeted attack with a proper autoattack, and the rest of the grenades ground targeted situationals, I'd be perfectly fine with that, but any kit/weapon that doesn't have an autoattack is an absolute fail in my book. 

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4 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

I hate grenade kit.  It'd be one thing if the autoattack actually worked, but having to ground target every single throw is just an absolute PITA that I'd rather do without.

Now if they'd make grenade 1 an actual targeted attack with a proper autoattack, and the rest of the grenades ground targeted situationals, I'd be perfectly fine with that, but any kit/weapon that doesn't have an autoattack is an absolute fail in my book. 

I agree. No auto attack makes Grenades so annoying ... Probably by far the hardest Weapon/Kit in the game. So many misses ... Even Weaver is more casual friendly. I also play Sword Weaver occasionally (mainly Tempest) and i have almost no issue at all, but Grenades ...omg.

I am a fresh dinged Engie btw. Dinged 80 a couple of days ago. And when i realized that i have to use Grenades for optimal playstyle ... No way. If condi engie Would be any better, but main hand Pistol's dmg is too low and #4 cd is too long, so i think i will just delete this complicated and confusing class and create a Ranger or Necromancer instead. I already have ele, thief, and mesmer, so i really won't miss one Engineer. Now i understand why engie is such a rarity, with exception of super easy Mechanist, which i dislike.

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Rather than repeat what other's have said, it's also noteworthy that core engineer for the longest time had no viable power weapon as rifle was pretty garbage prior to its rework. Grenades helped to fill that gap. 

They also have useful utility over rifle in that they can be cast behind you. This comes into play in PvE and competetive game modes.

If I have to move away from the boss to do a mechanic, I'll about face and throw grenades behind me so I can move at full movement speed while keeping my uptime high. 

In PvP, engineers will use the ability to cast nades behind them to kite their enemies or to whittle them down into lethal range in between bursts. Mortars can also be used for this purpose, but grenades have a faster projectile speed and more overall damage which makes them the preferred choice. 

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7 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

I agree. No auto attack makes Grenades so annoying ... Probably by far the hardest Weapon/Kit in the game. So many misses ... Even Weaver is more casual friendly. I also play Sword Weaver occasionally (mainly Tempest) and i have almost no issue at all, but Grenades ...omg.

I am a fresh dinged Engie btw. Dinged 80 a couple of days ago. And when i realized that i have to use Grenades for optimal playstyle ... No way. If condi engie Would be any better, but main hand Pistol's dmg is too low and #4 cd is too long, so i think i will just delete this complicated and confusing class and create a Ranger or Necromancer instead. I already have ele, thief, and mesmer, so i really won't miss one Engineer. Now i understand why engie is such a rarity, with exception of super easy Mechanist, which i dislike.

I wouldn't be so hasty to delete your engineer, I play two engineers at 80 frequently (scrapper and mechanist) and neither one evne touches grenades.

Give the elite specs (one of those above, not holosmith, holosmith is trash) a try before giving up on it.  Mechanist is a super low intensity playstyle and I'm loving it more than any other class in the game right now.  Scrapper can also be fairly low intensity (not as low as mech) and simple; mine runs a flamethrower-juggernaut build and is pretty tanky.

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On 10/1/2022 at 1:24 AM, shion.2084 said:

You pretty much absolutely need the grenadier explosives trait to leverage them.  So if you're not using that, then there's the problem.    

Of course i don't use Grenadier trait (which only affects Grenade Kit), i've been using Short Fuse instead: 25% almost perma crit. I already have around 75% crit chance with some Firearms traits included.  75% + 25% = 100%. Being crit capped is is way more important for my Rifle, Hammer and ALL other weapons, kits.

Anyway i am done with Grenades. You can't really use them  without taking Grenadier trait. And i won't take that trait.

Edited by Sifu.9745
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My first character was an Engineer, made back on day 1, and it has by far my highest playtime. I cannot get into grenades. If 1 would autoattack, it would be way better to use. I have no interest in continually tapping the 1 key in order to attack. Autoattack grenades work underwater. It's ridiculous that they can't work on land. I do my best to avoid the kit entirely. The only thing more annoying than grenades not having autoattack are contrarians on the forums who say that it's fine. These are the same people who would be telling Oliver Twist that gruel is the best food ever and one bowl is more than enough for anyone.

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5 hours ago, Lysico.4906 said:

Sifu. Problem is you.  You won’t listen to all the experienced players that are giving solid advice.   Why ask questions if you refused all the answers?

My question was: why do people still use Grenades and not: how do i get better with Grenades. I have absolutely no intention to equip them ever 😄

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On 10/2/2022 at 1:54 AM, Lynx.9058 said:

I wouldn't be so hasty to delete your engineer, I play two engineers at 80 frequently (scrapper and mechanist) and neither one evne touches grenades.

Give the elite specs (one of those above, not holosmith, holosmith is trash) a try before giving up on it.  Mechanist is a super low intensity playstyle and I'm loving it more than any other class in the game right now.  Scrapper can also be fairly low intensity (not as low as mech) and simple; mine runs a flamethrower-juggernaut build and is pretty tanky.

@Sifu.9745 had already expressed a dislike for Mechanist. That said, unless you're specifically looking for a character slot for endgame use, it's perfectly viable to play scrapper or holosmith in open world without grenades. It won't be optimal DPS, but in open world, it doesn't need to be (in fact, sometimes durability is more important because you don't have a pocket healer).

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I would agree that grenades kit feels really slow and unsatisfying imo, iv been trying to use it in my rotation but still feels not quite right. now after reading this thread i see its probably not worth using the kit if i dont use Grenadier which i don't as i prefer Short fuse, Maybe il just go back to throw mine or something like that.

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On 9/30/2022 at 7:34 PM, Stalima.5490 said:

Kit's have a fundamental problem in that they are always either far too good or far too weak and I don't know how they can realistically fix that problem short of just making the kits full of one use abilities which would be weird in itself.

Easy fix: make Engi always use exactly one kit. Either at the cost of a utility slot (#3 is always a kit), or a toolbelt slot (#5 always a kit).

There. Fixed.

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