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Everyone gets all or limited?


Yogurt Goblin.5934

Access to all or limited?  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. Should each profession/class have access to all roles, or just some of the roles?

    • All roles (quickness, alacrity, heal, dps etc)
      26
    • Limited (2 or 3)
      36


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Hey everyone,

 

I would like your opinion on this, and hopefully a dev might just stumble across this too, if I'm lucky.

There are few classes that can do all the roles currently, and I was wondering, of the people who do not main one of these classes, would you like to be able to do all roles?

I feel like the main use here is PvX (fractals, strikes and raids), and should anyone be able to go on LFG with any class and fill any role?

Edited by Yogurt Goblin.5934
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The general idea is that every class should be able to fill all of these rules, but currently Anet doesn't want any class to be able to provide both strong boons (quickness and alacrity) at the same time, these are supposed to be mutually exclusive.

And this means that some classes are currently locked out of being able to fill any role. Because warrior got quickness in their core utility skills and ranger got alacrity, meaning that giving the other boon to these classes would lead to this unwanted case. And I agree with the general idea that no class should provide both.

I would like if every class would be able to fill any role, but this requires further reworks for these 2 classes I mentioned. They need the boon taken away from core and put on an elite spec, then the other boon on another.

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I'd like it if alac went back to just chrono and quickness should just be personal (in limited amounts)

Every elite spec (with core traits as well) should be able to fulfill 2 roles (power damage, condi damage, healing support, boon support, and self-sustain (cc) sustain (barrier and passive self-heal)) with one role being self-sustain.

The problem with this is some core, sustain trait lines are bad or don't provide much sustain.

Anet was almost close to achieving this with eod but they missed the mark by making most of the specs function based rather than providing the missing role. Meaning some professions benefitted better than others.

 

A Quick list of roles if you are wondering:

Spoiler

Warrior: Spellbreaker (sustain?) berserker (condi or power damage) Bladesworn (new kit) missing: heal support/boon support

 

Guardian: Firebrand (boon support/heal support or condi damage) Dragon hunter (traps? or sustain?) Willbender (movement)

missing: Power (almost willbender but was reworked) sustain? sustain(cc)

 

Rev: Herald (boon support AND sustain (not saying it's op just good elite spec design)) Renegade (power or condi damage) Vindicator (???) missing: sustain(cc)

 

Ranger: Soulbeast(condi or power damage) Druid (heal support) Untamed (sustain(cc)) missing: boon support 

 

Engineer: Scrapper (sustain(barrier) sutain(cc)) holosmith(Power damage or boon support) Mechanist (EVERYTHING (small amounts but still)) needs: Mechanist be just condi

 

Thief (probably the most well rounded so far): Daredevil (Sustain(evades) sustain(cc) and condi or power damage (That DD can accomplish all of this is quite amazing NOT to say it needs a nerf)) Deadeye: (High power damage and more utility)
Specter (MORE condi damage or boon and heal support) missing: almost nothing, maybe better sustain (cc)

 

Elementalist: Weaver (power (tho heavily nerfed) or condi damage or sustain(in small amounts)) Tempest(boon and heal support and high-power damage (currently meta in spvp pls do not nerf)) Catalyst:(sustain(cc)) missing: weaver needs to be better.

 

Mesmer: Chrono: (meh) Mirage: (condi and Sustain(evades)) Virtuoso (Power damage (nerfed)) missing: boon and heal support (add to chrono) sustain (cc)

 

Necro I can't speak for necro

 

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With the number of elite specs i think that having all roles on every profession is possible and somewhat desirable. That being said i think we should look past Anet's Holy Trinity of dps, heal support and support dps. A more PvP/CC orientated especs can be just as exciting as acces to heal/alac/quick. 

I do think its a problem that the vast majority of especs has a condi and power traitline (or woven together). Just pick either of them or put them together in a espec that favors a celestial build type. A lack of specified dps buffs usually just favors the weapon sets that are abit overtuned and puts them on all Especs (excluding the Espec specific weapon ofc). An example of this is the elementalist specializations; probably around 70% of the playerbase will reach the highest dps in PvE using a condi scepter/focus build regardless of the specialization. 

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4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The general idea is that every class should be able to fill all of these rules, but currently Anet doesn't want any class to be able to provide both strong boons (quickness and alacrity) at the same time, these are supposed to be mutually exclusive.

And this means that some classes are currently locked out of being able to fill any role. Because warrior got quickness in their core utility skills and ranger got alacrity, meaning that giving the other boon to these classes would lead to this unwanted case. And I agree with the general idea that no class should provide both.

I would like if every class would be able to fill any role, but this requires further reworks for these 2 classes I mentioned. They need the boon taken away from core and put on an elite spec, then the other boon on another.

I could well see them do that at some point in the future. The current arrangement where spirits give alacrity and banners give quickness really feels like a stopgap that was implemented quickly in order for those professions to have SOMETHING - warrior especially considering how terrible the first iteration of quickness banners was. Wouldn't surprise me if at some point they find some organic way to have druid give alacrity and one of the existing warrior elite specs (possibly spellbreaker) give one of the boons in preparation for the introduction of new elite specs that bring the other boon.

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I think having every class fill every role would be good, though it may be unrealistic presently. However, it’s kind of important to not confuse that with having a build the fills every role. If a class is filling role A, it should inherently not be filling roles B, C, or D. In order to do so, it would have to change to a build that fulfills that role, and no longer fulfills A. You could, in theory, just have builds that fill every role simultaneously, which will be rather undesirable for a lot of reasons imo.

Also when I say class, I mean the broader profession. Specific specializations should probably not be able to fulfill all roles and be limited to 1 or 2. Specializations are different from the core class, but not THAT different that they, alone, should be capable of taking on every role.

To exemplify this; if you are trying to fulfill roles A through F (6 different roles), two especs may have access to 2 roles each (say, A and B for espec 1, and C and D for espec 2). One espec my fulfill one role (role E for espec 3) and the core class may fulfill a final role (role F for core).

That’s just my opinion though. Who knows what’s actually best.

Edited by oscuro.9720
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4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Anet doesn't want any class to be able to provide both strong boons (quickness and alacrity) at the same time, these are supposed to be mutually exclusive.

And this means that some classes are currently locked out of being able to fill any role. Because warrior got quickness in their core utility skills and ranger got alacrity, meaning that giving the other boon to these classes would lead to this unwanted case. And I agree with the general idea that no class should provide both.

I too agree that those two boons should not be simultaneously accessible. One of the cool parts of this game is there is not a rigid role structure. The roles are more diverse because they arise from what is capable and what is valuable to players. Separating those two boons creates more roles that can be filled, bringing more potential diversity to classes, as well as further stratifying classes away from being a 1-build-does-all. 
 

However, I do think that 1 class should be able to provide both by specing into different Especs. Since Especs are mutually exclusive already, this would maintain a base separation of the two. Quickness and Alacrity access on core should remain personal in nature, with Especs expanding the ability to provide it to groups to keep a better balance between the two boons. Just my opinion though.

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Thanks for everyones thoughts on this, it is interesting to see that both sides of this is present in the community.

My personal preference is that all professions should have access to each role, and in terms of alac and quickness, I want each class to actually be able to achieve 100% uptime of these boons to a group, with moderate concentration commitment. If someone wants to only play warrior, they should be able to join any PvE endgame content LFG group and provide any role that is needed.

But I feel like this is a goal that would take quite a while to achieve, so for the time being I think it would be better that a few of the classes get some roles taken from them....looking at you guardian and engineer.

I am also unsure how I feel about classes being able to double roles, like alacdps or qhfb.

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All profession should have access to all role through different spec.

 

We already see how unbalanced the game is when only one profession has an abundance access to 2 very strong boons in the game. Yeah looking at you guardian with aegis and stability spam.

Also people wants diversity and offering each profession a spec that can fufill either DPS/Alac/Quickness/heal allows player to be more creative with their team building.

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The first one ideally but it's going to be the second one practically ~

When a role is just  [The class you pick when you need mandatory boon], that class will have the meta built around it. Ideally, every class should be able to build  in such a way that they fulfill the role they're speccing for in a way that satisfies the raid  Some classes can be easier to play when it comes to satisfying that role, but as long as other classes can satisfy that role in a similar capacity, that is what one should strive for. 

Unfortunately, that doesn't work out in practice, and the result tends to look like Firebrand, where instead of one class being a mandatory pick for X or Y thing, it is actually a mandatory pick because it can do X,Y,Z all on one build. 

I think every class should have access to every boon, but I think they should also have a handful of roles that they gravitate to.

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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I just picked second option, then got it question is even interesting.

 

1.B y this time we got 3 elite specialisations on the profession, plus a bunch of core. So if a profession can only be viable in less then 3 roles, than those specialisations should be designed poorly. 1 elite spec should At Least give 1 additional way to play or why player pays money for it. 

 

word "specialisation" means it specializes character in something, i hope not in same thing spec from expansion before did.

 

2. To spice thing up, developer often gives 1 spec at least 2 roles. Because imagine being main of some prof, you usually don't play support( just like average player) and then you prof gets only 1 support role in new expansion spec. Sad, right. So always spec which does support can also be DPS. And because of that combo can usually do more .

 

3. Most problematic specialisations we see now are fb and mech. Why? Because 1 specialisation can do everything, not even 1 profession.  It would be totally ok if DH had very good damage and FB had very good support, instead FB has both. It would be ok for scrapper be good support and mech be good DPS but mech has everything (it's gameplay is issue for different topic).

 

so i would ask in your place how much roles a specialisation should be able to have, not profession. Because by the most conservative calculations a profession should have at least 4 roles or it or at least some ot it's specialisations is garbage. 

edit ok not everything but 3 or more, killing class diversity 

Edited by Polar.8634
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I voted every role, and let me explain, we have 9 classes, with 3 elites each and i think there are like 8 or 9 trait lines if you count elites and core for each class, for me that means we can have each class/elite cover all the roles in their own unique way without much trouble.

as for roles i see them as the following.

Dps, both power and condi

Healer

Support, mainly giving boons and kinda secindary role being together with either heal or dps

for me those are the roles in this game, tanking can be made just with a couple pieces if equipment with the right stats and as i said we have enought traits, weapons and skills, so doing the 3 roles in one class changing build isnt that dificult.

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Its currently possible for almost every profession to fill any role, just not at the same time. But with build templates, they can switch to what is needed and get the job done when the role is vacant.

 

The only exception I know of is Necromancer, who doesn't have Alacrity on HealScourge, and Thief currently has no viable way to share Quickness with allies, so these two are opposites here. This currently holds both classes back, especially since Thief would make a good QuickDPS, and the lack of Alacrity (or any boons besides Might, for that matter), mean that HealScourge isn't taken as a mainline healer in 5man content.

 

Guardian's HealAlac build is also a bit wonky, since Willbender is clunky to use despite being a strong support. Warrior's healing build in PvE will also likely be nonexistent after the Tactical Reload nerf, and some classes lack real support weapon combinations meaning they're inefficient compared to classes that have them.

 

And of course, as someone pointed out, Warrior can never give Alacrity and Ranger can never give Quickness unless the devs find some way to disable the ability to provide the other boon when equipped.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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On 10/1/2022 at 9:18 AM, oscuro.9720 said:

I too agree that those two boons should not be simultaneously accessible. One of the cool parts of this game is there is not a rigid role structure. The roles are more diverse because they arise from what is capable and what is valuable to players. Separating those two boons creates more roles that can be filled, bringing more potential diversity to classes, as well as further stratifying classes away from being a 1-build-does-all. 
 

However, I do think that 1 class should be able to provide both by specing into different Especs. Since Especs are mutually exclusive already, this would maintain a base separation of the two. Quickness and Alacrity access on core should remain personal in nature, with Especs expanding the ability to provide it to groups to keep a better balance between the two boons. Just my opinion though.

Personally, I don't think it would be a big deal for builds to exist that could do both, as long as that was basically all the build did. No damage to speak of, no healing to speak of, just the boons. You could then pair it with a healer that can focus entirely on healing rather than healing plus quickness/alacrity. The end result would be that the subsquad does a little less damage (since neither support is doing much damage), but might make up for it with additional damage mitigation and/or taking some pressure off the healer.

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11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Personally, I don't think it would be a big deal for builds to exist that could do both, as long as that was basically all the build did. No damage to speak of, no healing to speak of, just the boons. You could then pair it with a healer that can focus entirely on healing rather than healing plus quickness/alacrity. The end result would be that the subsquad does a little less damage (since neither support is doing much damage), but might make up for it with additional damage mitigation and/or taking some pressure off the healer.

I agree with you in theory, but I don’t think it’s achievable with how the game is structured. Every class has some, unavoidable amount of everything else baked into it, since outside of high-end play, classes mostly multirole to accomplish things (open world, competitive, etc. all benefit from having a less rigid/undefined role system). With the boon coverage and group synergy in high-end play, I don’t think getting a class to do absolutely nothing else but alacrity+quickness is a realistic option.
 

I’ve tried to type out what I’m thinking multiple times now and can’t seem to articulate it in a satisfactory manor, so I’m going to just leave it at that and hope it’s understandable 😂

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3 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I agree with you in theory, but I don’t think it’s achievable with how the game is structured. Every class has some, unavoidable amount of everything else baked into it, since outside of high-end play, classes mostly multirole to accomplish things (open world, competitive, etc. all benefit from having a less rigid/undefined role system). With the boon coverage and group synergy in high-end play, I don’t think getting a class to do absolutely nothing else but alacrity+quickness is a realistic option.
 

I’ve tried to type out what I’m thinking multiple times now and can’t seem to articulate it in a satisfactory manor, so I’m going to just leave it at that and hope it’s understandable 😂

As a class, probably not, but as a build, I think it is. That's pretty much exactly the situation the old chronomancer was in - but at the time, chrono was mandatory because they had a monopoly on both boons. If it's calibrated so that getting 100% on both requires full boon duration and all of your bar to maintain, I think it is possible to have builds that can do both, but without enough healing to be a healer or the damage we see with offensive supports.

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1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As a class, probably not, but as a build, I think it is. That's pretty much exactly the situation the old chronomancer was in - but at the time, chrono was mandatory because they had a monopoly on both boons. If it's calibrated so that getting 100% on both requires full boon duration and all of your bar to maintain, I think it is possible to have builds that can do both, but without enough healing to be a healer or the damage we see with offensive supports.

Ah, I see. I’m not well versed in pve meta, so I’ll take your word for it. The other thing I would look at is what the consequences of that are in other game modes, but this is getting beyond my knowledge base, I’m a WvW nerd. 

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