Power fresh air, should have the highest DPS in the game.

[Axelteas.7192]

The squishiest build ever, cloth, low Hp and without the evades, teleports and steath of thiefs.

I remember back in time playing scepter fresh air elementalist, and although the build has very high risk and squishy the damage was decent.

Yeah, there was a bit of piano rotation, yeah we had to rotate between the infamous conjured hammer, drop it and pick the clunky conjured greatsword, but with the annoying effort, the damage was very high. 

Now we look at the dps benchmarks, untamed, bladesworn... power ele does not even exist.

What's the logic of high risk zero reward?

And I'm talking about the old scepter power build. Imagine playing power sword weaver and being 1hit in a dungeon and doing a low damage that is not even in the charts?

Has the company lost his mind about risk-reward?

I remember in the last patch they said they wanted to balance power builds to the same level as condi builds, and i'm seeing the opposite... to the point that now even the condi staff weaver is a thing LOL

 

 

 

Yeah I miss my old fresh air

Edited October 1, 2022 by Axelteas.7192

[AliamRationem.5172]

The concept of risk/difficulty/limitations being rewarded is something I strongly believe they need to make every effort to return to.

[Sunshine.5014]

I'd rather Snowcrows bake in Ele dodge for their benchmark. Like all Ele benchmark must use dodge whenever the energy bar is full. Then the DPS meter is more accurate.

It's unrealistic that Ele doesn't dodge when DPS on a golem.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Guess I'll be "that guy" and say that I disagree.  When it comes to effort vs. reward, the builds that have the highest divide between the two aren't the power builds.  It's the condi builds.  I don't do much playing with Condi Weaver myself, but Griever Weaver is significantly more difficult than Power Weaver for almost no payoff.  Power weaver is far more flexible in it's traits, its utility choices, and it's rotation.  I.E. I frequently replace Arcane Blast with another utility, since it contributes only about 600-700 DPS total.  It's not a big loss.  But for Griever weaver, none of the utilities can be replaced.  It has to be Fire Signet, Primordial Stance, Glyph of Storms, and Weave Self, or else you're better off running the power build.  The traits also cannot be replaced, since all of them have to be taken for pure damage and no further utility.  Until this level of dedication for Griever Sword Weaver produces 40k+ DPS, then it just isn't worth it.  That, or nerf every other profession down significantly.  

[zeyeti.8347]

Problem will always be the same , they gonna buff up ele , so average ele players (95% of the playerbase i guess) can do their role as ele way better , then snwocrow is gonna come with a new ele rotation on the golem that will require you another set of arms (20 fingers in total) that deal 60k/sec , they gonna clear mursaat overseer in 35 secs chrono , anet gonna be angry about that performance and nerf it again , that describe the ele state from 2016 to 2022.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Problem will always be the same , they gonna buff up ele , so average ele players (95% of the playerbase i guess) can do their role as ele way better , then snwocrow is gonna come with a new ele rotation on the golem that will require you another set of arms (20 fingers in total) that deal 60k/sec , they gonna clear mursaat overseer in 35 secs chrono , anet gonna be angry about that performance and nerf it again , that describe the ele state from 2016 to 2022.

I think they have builds like condi staff/scepter in a pretty good spot now sitting at around 38k benchmark.  They just need to bring the power variants up a bit and buff specs like hammer cata and sword weaver up to 40k.  The average player is still going to perform better on easier builds with lower benchmarks, but that's okay.  What isn't okay is for a build like sword weaver to be sitting at 34-36k as it does currently so even under optimal conditions the best players underperform with it compared to much easier specs with more utility, range, etc.

[zeyeti.8347]

3 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

What isn't okay is for a build like sword weaver to be sitting at 34-36k as it does currently so even under optimal conditions the best players underperform with it compared to much easier specs with more utility, range, etc.

True , melee (and not only weaver) should always be more effective than ranged , or why play melee then ?

[Axelteas.7192]

7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Guess I'll be "that guy" and say that I disagree.  When it comes to effort vs. reward, the builds that have the highest divide between the two aren't the power builds.  It's the condi builds.  I don't do much playing with Condi Weaver myself, but Griever Weaver is significantly more difficult than Power Weaver for almost no payoff.  Power weaver is far more flexible in it's traits, its utility choices, and it's rotation.  I.E. I frequently replace Arcane Blast with another utility, since it contributes only about 600-700 DPS total.  It's not a big loss.  But for Griever weaver, none of the utilities can be replaced.  It has to be Fire Signet, Primordial Stance, Glyph of Storms, and Weave Self, or else you're better off running the power build.  The traits also cannot be replaced, since all of them have to be taken for pure damage and no further utility.  Until this level of dedication for Griever Sword Weaver produces 40k+ DPS, then it just isn't worth it.  That, or nerf every other profession down significantly.  

I have my doubts about condi weaver being more difficult and less forgiving than power weaver because as far as I remember I saw a viable low intensity condi weaver build in youtube, maybe MrMystic or Masel.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

I have my doubts about condi weaver being more difficult and less forgiving than power weaver because as far as I remember I saw a viable low intensity condi weaver build in youtube, maybe MrMystic or Masel.

We're talking about the normal build, not the LI build.  Condi sword rotation is harder than power sword rotation.  Obviously, nobody is asking for a fire camping LI rotation to produce 40k benchmarks.

[Serephen.3420]

I agree in part. I don't think fresh air should be the highest dps in general but rather one of the highest burst dps. It still had the advantage of range and fast spikes. I think some of those spikes should get their old damage back again. 

[soulknight.9620]

I wouldnt actually say griever hybrid weaver to have harder rotation than power weaver. Like if you take FA u can easily get access to any 4/5 skills on demand and reset ur rotation by double attune to air when thing went bad. And ofc it doesnt use conjures so thats a relief too. I would say that the hardest one is condi weaver with meta utilities (hi weave self). After that its semi on par: power weaver and hybrid griever weaver. 

The real power of hybrid griever weaver is not high dps, but rather its hybrid nature. If you go for power build you can start doing dps instantly, which is good on some bosses that phase fast. On the other hand if you go for condi you will need a bit of a ramp up to get ur dps running which is kinda bad on bosses with fast phasing. Hybrid griever weaver combines both strenghts of both builds by doing more dps than power on fast phasing bosses, but keeping its ability to "get a head start" so that the other component of the dps (condi) could kick in. Its called hybrid for a reason. You need to respect its strenghts if you want to get full use out of it. 

Tbh i think the major problem is not condi vs power, but rather melee vs ranged, since just look at staff/scepter atm. Sword is way harder to keep uptime of ur dps on bosses during mechanics/phases since u need to kite and you loose dps while doing so. But sc/staff doesnt loose its dps potential while kiting/phasing/doing mechanics. By going melee you are putting urself up for some risks and you need to get rewarded for this. 

The other problem is that more complex rotations should net you with more dps OR more utility. You need to be able to get ur worth out of playing good with ur spec. 
As for FA. Its a bit complicated. Yes its a dps trait, BUT i has TONS of utility potential on a weaver, since it grants you the ability to get access to any 4/5 skills in ur kit instantly. And by doing so it provides more utility than lets say the other trait that does more dps to low hp targets. So dps wise it should do less dps then the abovementioned trait. 

[Kulvar.1239]

IMO, they should rather increase Elementalist effectiveness at low skill, and give Elementalist more versatility, allowing high skilled players to perform not better than other classes on the single metric of DPS, but provide more on the side to themselves and their team as compensation of their frailty.

[AliamRationem.5172]

13 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

IMO, they should rather increase Elementalist effectiveness at low skill, and give Elementalist more versatility, allowing high skilled players to perform not better than other classes on the single metric of DPS, but provide more on the side to themselves and their team as compensation of their frailty.

That's fine for catalyst and tempest, but weaver is supposed to be a selfish DPS.  That's what it does.  I'd rather they didn't change that and just make it actually good at what it's designed to do.  If it isn't the best choice for less skilled players, well, that's really nothing new.

[soulknight.9620]

14 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

IMO, they should rather increase Elementalist effectiveness at low skill, and give Elementalist more versatility, allowing high skilled players to perform not better than other classes on the single metric of DPS, but provide more on the side to themselves and their team as compensation of their frailty.

Thats not how gw2 works. Each class has a few elite specs that focuses on different things. Tempest is you defensive support spec. Catalyst is you offensive support spec. And weaver is you "ima do dat DAMAGE" spec. There is no need to make every spec the same. 

[Razor.6392]

Since ele's inception, the question has always been "why play ele when X can do better for considerably less effort?"

For the most part, the answer was  "because ele can come out even or slightly on top if masterfully played, and that's fun!"

Sadly, that answer hasn't applied in a long time, and everytime there was a faint glimpse of hope, it was ruled (nerfed) out of existence.

ANet has no idea, and has had no idea, of how to balance this class. Because none of their devs really plays it or understands it.

 

[Serephen.3420]

28 minutes ago, Razor.6392 said:

Since ele's inception, the question has always been "why play ele when X can do better for considerably less effort?"

For the most part, the answer was  "because ele can come out even or slightly on top if masterfully played, and that's fun!"

Sadly, that answer hasn't applied in a long time, and everytime there was a faint glimpse of hope, it was ruled (nerfed) out of existence.

ANet has no idea, and has had no idea, of how to balance this class. Because none of their devs really plays it or understands it.

 

I'm sorry but core ele was a monster, a beautiful monster that took some effort to play but was quite effective. Now, yeah, it's more like a chihuahua, all bark with not much bite.

[Eponet.4829]

7 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I'm sorry but core ele was a monster, a beautiful monster that took some effort to play but was quite effective. Now, yeah, it's more like a chihuahua, all bark with not much bite.

 

Wasn't Core Elementalist actually just fire staff camping when not using the pre-damage reduction Glyph of Storms (which dropped into air to cast)/Ice Bow 4 (Which switched to water for the bonus damage trait). It really wasn't that difficult to play, especially since every core game dungeon boss usually died in seconds with a coordinated party.

[Axelteas.7192]

34 minutes ago, Eponet.4829 said:

 

Wasn't Core Elementalist actually just fire staff camping when not using the pre-damage reduction Glyph of Storms (which dropped into air to cast)/Ice Bow 4 (Which switched to water for the bonus damage trait). It really wasn't that difficult to play, especially since every core game dungeon boss usually died in seconds with a coordinated party.

No, the powerful core ele was scepter/focus fresh air, and not fire camping, the rotation was something like fire 2+3, air 2, water 2+5, earth 4 and interchanging hammer and gretsword. It was very complex in that age and clunky but rewarding.

[Onoxsys.7615]

On 10/1/2022 at 2:54 AM, Axelteas.7192 said:

The squishiest build ever, cloth, low Hp and without the evades, teleports and steath of thiefs.

I remember back in time playing scepter fresh air elementalist, and although the build has very high risk and squishy the damage was decent.

Yeah, there was a bit of piano rotation, yeah we had to rotate between the infamous conjured hammer, drop it and pick the clunky conjured greatsword, but with the annoying effort, the damage was very high. 

Now we look at the dps benchmarks, untamed, bladesworn... power ele does not even exist.

What's the logic of high risk zero reward?

And I'm talking about the old scepter power build. Imagine playing power sword weaver and being 1hit in a dungeon and doing a low damage that is not even in the charts?

Has the company lost his mind about risk-reward?

I remember in the last patch they said they wanted to balance power builds to the same level as condi builds, and i'm seeing the opposite... to the point that now even the condi staff weaver is a thing LOL

 

 

 

Yeah I miss my old fresh air

 

I main fresh air primarily playing PvP/WvW and I think that while it could be somewhat better, it's in a pretty decent spot right now. The build is still one of, if not the most fun builds in the game imo. I'd prefer Anet not touch it incase they ruin it. It's hard to make changes to ele because they either become too strong or too useless.

[tykel.6073]

I mean air scepter 3 is just outdated design at this point (as is scepter 2 but at least it doesn’t feel as bad) and reworking scepter 3 to do anything useful would go a long way to help scepter power builds. Until then it’s just going to be a condi weapon at this point.

[zealex.9410]

On 10/2/2022 at 7:23 AM, Sunshine.5014 said:

I'd rather Snowcrows bake in Ele dodge for their benchmark. Like all Ele benchmark must use dodge whenever the energy bar is full. Then the DPS meter is more accurate.

It's unrealistic that Ele doesn't dodge when DPS on a golem.

Either im having a stroke or you are unaware that literally every (power) build needs to dodge attacks.

[Sunshine.5014]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:51 AM, zealex.9410 said:

Either im having a stroke or you are unaware that literally every (power) build needs to dodge attacks.

You must be joking. When I'm on my Mechanist, I only need to walk away from wipe-mechanics (stress on walk away, since I still have range DPS). While when I'm on Weaver, I need to dodge even normal attacks. If I get hit once, I either pray that the healers heals me in time, or swap to water and lose DPS. Mechanist doesn't have any of that problem. Even the normal heal from Explosion + Signet can top off my HP.

As I said above, to make Ele Golem benchmark fair:
Like all Ele benchmark must use dodge whenever the energy bar is full. Then the DPS meter is more accurate.

[Infusion.7149]

As much as power fresh air tempest is my preferred elementalist gameplay it isn't supposed to be the top DPS spec for elementalist. Sword weaver is supposed to be top DPS (right now it is more scepter condi weaver or staff condi weaver provided the target doesn't move), followed by power catalyst (which is essentially melee <600 range), with condi tempest / power tempest last. If you were to make a point about increasing consistency of lightning orb and overload air on hitboxes (especially when there is only one target) then you'd have a strong argument.
 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

What about catalyst or fresh air catalyst ? Poor quickness support ?

[Sunshine.5014]

15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

As much as power fresh air tempest is my preferred elementalist gameplay it isn't supposed to be the top DPS spec for elementalist. Sword weaver is supposed to be top DPS (right now it is more scepter condi weaver or staff condi weaver provided the target doesn't move), followed by power catalyst (which is essentially melee <600 range), with condi tempest / power tempest last.
 

Why should Power FreshAir Tempest be last? Overload, which is its main attack, is melee range.